Sleeping consent??

LegacyUser

I was at a friends party recently and lot of drink was consumed, anyway towards the end of the nite everyone was kinda passed out around the place, I ended up slumped against a girl and we kinda got ina spooning position. during the nite my hands got more and more curious and i ended up feeling her up but she never objected to it, now 2 days later i get a text from her bfriend saying he's going to beat the **** out of me and i raped her,
Im thinkin of going to the gaurds but im afraid theyll take her side. Im doing social studies and if im convicted of rape well thats my career over essentially , there was no witnesses as far as i could see

Carrigart Exile

dryrape wrote: »

I was at a friends party recently and lot of drink was consumed, anyway towards the end of the nite everyone was kinda passed out around the place, I ended up slumped against a girl and we kinda got ina spooning position. during the nite my hands got more and more curious and i ended up feeling her up but she never objected to it, now 2 days later i get a text from her bfriend saying he's going to beat the **** out of me and i raped her,
Im thinkin of going to the gaurds but im afraid theyll take her side. Im doing social studies and if im convicted of rape well thats my career over essentially , there was no witnesses as far as i could see

Was she asleep when this happened?

JuliusCaesar

dryrape wrote: »

I was at a friends party recently and lot of drink was consumed, anyway towards the end of the nite everyone was kinda passed out around the place, I ended up slumped against a girl and we kinda got ina spooning position. during the nite my hands got more and more curious and i ended up feeling her up but she never objected to it,

And was she in any condition to give consent? Sounds to me that you were just taking advantage of her being passed out to feel her up.

biko

Was there actual sex? Or just hands?
You're probably going to get smacked for this, sorry.

LegacyUser

Not good, not good at all!!!! Your behaviour was appalling and perverse to a certain extent!!! How far did this actually go???

On the flip side (and dont think for one second I am condoning what you did) if she was awake and upset then why didnt she protest and if she was asleep / passed out, then how does she know you were feeling her up?

Something stinks here from both sides. We cant really know what to suggest until you explain the details....

Note to you for the future - keep your hands to yourself.

Miss Fluff

Was she awake? Was she awake and drunk and out of it? Did she reciprocate? Was there any kissing? Or was she asleep and you copped a sneaky feel? We need full details here.

Asok

Dude what you did was very very stupid, We do need the full details to give you proper advice though.
http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/comic-party.gif

Laslo

Hmmm, well first of all it's not rape - you only felt her up. Having said that, I think the other opinions on the thread are fairly valid in that you may be liable for prosecution seeing as you felt her up without consent.

Tricky situation. Stupid of the girl to allow herself to get spooned by a stranger when she has a b/f. Even more stupid of you to feel her up. How drunk/conscious was she exactly?

Nevyn

It would be sexual assault, which can carry jail time and being on the sex offenders register for the rest of his life.

LegacyUser

i came back after a few drinks (not drunk) and went asleep. i wake up to find my male best friend feeling me up and grinding his ****ing knob against my ass (we were in a spoon position). I didnt say anything cos i was petrified that if i resisted ide be raped. after 10 mins of lying there scared stiff my legs were finally able to move and i grabbed shoes and ran in next door. Men are all the same, interested in 1 thing. dryrape i hope you get whats coming to you and if i knew this girl ide be giving her fella some pointers on kicking the **** outta you. Its not rape per se, but psychologically it ****s you up just as bad.

spurious

Quite frightening to realise there is an adult man out there who is not clear that what was described was non-consensual.

From what you have described, it is not rape, but it is sexual assault.

That said, there is a fetish some people have for being woken by sexual activity, but that is in a situation where it has been discussed and consented to in advance.

Ellsbells

dryrape wrote: »

during the nite my hands got more and more curious and i ended up feeling her up

You do realise your hands dont work independently from your body???? You do the crime you do the time....

moco

This happened me before and the guy acted like he'd did nothing wrong. It's totally taking advantage. In my case I never even pulled the guy up on what he'd done as I was so embarrassed about it all.

It's quite sick what you did.

LegacyUser

Happened me aswell. Was staying in a friend of my boyfriends house after a night out. The usual, came in from the club, knackered and slightly worse for wear and went up to bed with my bf. The two of us fell sound asleep in the bed as you do after drink. Woke up in the middle of the night to someone feeling me up. I just assumed it was my boyfriend as he normally would do. A couple of seconds later my boyfriend jumps up and freaks out. Turns out his "buddy" was the one trying it on. Got the fright of my life. He claimed he went into the wrong bedroom by mistake. F***ing bastard.

PeakOutput

victim wrote: »

Men are all the same, interested in 1 thing.

sorry about what happened and all but that bit is complete crap

op you wont get done for rape and i doubt the police will go threw with anything BUT(without condoning violence) if i was her boyfriend id ****ing nail you to the wall. your in college so you dont have the excuse of being a horny 16 yrold. have some ****ing respect for yourself and more importantly others and never ever ever even consider taking advantage of someone like that again


edit;

victim wrote: »

Its not rape per se, but psychologically it ****s you up just as bad.

i also call shenanigans on that but im a man so feel free to disregard my opinion as being solely cock driven

How Strange

OP, you say you were really drunk and literally fell down on the floor to pass out and sleep. Then how come you were lucid enough to have wandering hands? From my experience of men when they pass out drunk then they are out cold. What seems strange from your story is you were messing around with a girl you didn't know.

I've had one or two scary experiences with men and I know that it is really awful to find yourself drunk and in a situation where he wants to do things that you don't. Luckily for me, I screamed, kicked, scratched - did whatever I had to. And the guys reaction - what's your problem?

OP, I would suggest that you take a pre-emptive and decent move here and contact the girl via letter and suggest that you both attend a mediated counselling session to discuss this. You need to face up to what you did and she needs some sort of closure. It will probably be better for both parties especially her as if this goes to court on a sexual assault charge your solicitor will probably try to make out she is a sl*t and vilify her when in fact you are totally in the wrong.

Jack B. Badd

PeakOutput wrote: »

op you wont get done for rape and i doubt the police will go threw with anything

This is not a dig at the OP but I really do hope that the gardaí take action in cases like this. Sexual assault covers a number of things that do not include rape/penetration and is a crime whether the victims are men, women or children.

OP, you do not sound particularly malicious but you do sound ignorant and that's no excuse. You will have to deal with the consequences of this and I doubt they will be pleasant.

Rb

To be honest OP, you'd be getting off light if all you got was a beating.

If I were her boyfriend, rather than going and kicking lumps out of you, I'd just have you done for sexual assault which would be far, far worse than a beating.

If you were sober enough to remember the whole thing, then you were certainly sober enough to keep your hands to yourself, to find somewhere to sleep by yourself etc.

You've fcked up badly, there'll be consequences so just hope they're not on the legal side of things.

Good luck with it.

SilverChair

wait a minute, Im confused; how is silence the same as lack of consent.
Now I know what are the obvious cases of sexual assault; one person cant consent, or explicitly doesnt consent.

But can I get some clarity on 2 scenarios when both parties are in the same state.

Scenario 1
You are both awake and reasonably sober (no one more drunk than the other).
If there is no resistance of any kind how is he to know there is no consent?
If you neither say something, nor attempt to stop someone, and are in the capacity to do both then isnt that consent? I mean we all meet people from time to time and fool around and you know theres consent there without the need to sign a written affidavit.

Scenario 2
You are both very drunk, neither of you able to take care of yourself.
There has been flirting during the course of the evening and while semi conscious beside each other there is some feeling and fumbling (maybe this isnt what the op is describing but give us your opinion all the same).
Is that sexual assault?
Straight away you might say the girl couldnt give consent, but neither could the guy. Is it always the case of what condition is the girl in and the man's is irrelevant?

Im just wondering, Ive never had a serious discussion where I outline what is probably going to happen step by step and ask her does she agree its a good plan. When two people are fooling around you just go with what feels natural and if it doesnt feel right for one person they call a halt to it through signals, actions, or words.

PeakOutput

SilverChair wrote: »

wait a minute, Im confused; how is silence the same as lack of consent.
Now I know what are the obvious cases of sexual assault; one person cant consent, or explicitly doesnt consent.

<snip>

Im just wondering, Ive never had a serious discussion where I outline what is probably going to happen step by step and ask her does she agree its a good plan. When two people are fooling around you just go with what feels natural and if it doesnt feel right for one person they call a halt to it through signals, actions, or words.

sure its not a new argument. should the guy actually ask can i do this can i do that or when and how is consent implied? what responsibilities do the women have etc

i dont think it applies in the ops case although if she can remember it she was obviously conscious so why didnt she kick up a fuss? but like victim said she could of been scared stiff at the time OR she could of been enjoying it and felt guilty afterwards so told her boyfriend(very unlikely imo but its not a zero chance)


edit; also to me the op implies he thought the girl was unconsious

Jack B. Badd

SilverChair wrote: »

wait a minute, Im confused; how is silence the same as lack of consent.
Now I know what are the obvious cases of sexual assault; one person cant consent, or explicitly doesnt consent.

If you have sex with someone you are required to get their consent to the act. In a situation where they do not give their consent, i.e. they do not verbally agree to or actively participate in the act or where they are coerced into agreeing, it can be considered to be an sexual act that took place without consent - rape, sexual assault, etc.

This attitude from some guys that because a woman wasn't kicking and screaming to get away they must have been "up for it" is imo quite sickening and if nothing else absolutely stupid when we live in a society where you will be prosecuted for sexually assaulting/raping someone. As I've said before ignorance is not an excuse!

thebiggestjim

victim wrote: »

Men are all the same, interested in 1 thing.

Bulls**t statement

PeakOutput

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

This attitude from some guys that because a woman wasn't kicking and screaming to get away they must have been "up for it" is imo quite sickening

noone here has sad that as far as i can see and the person you quoted definitely didnt say that

MagicMarker

There's a lesson to be learned from this...

Never get pissed and fall asleep in the spooning position with some random girl/guy.

Jack B. Badd

PeakOutput wrote: »

noone here has sad that as far as i can see and the person you quoted definitely didnt say that

Ok, my statement that "This attitude from some guys that because a woman wasn't kicking and screaming to get away they must have been "up for it" is imo quite sickening" is a bit OTT, I'll admit, but the attitude displayed by the following is just foolish from any guy when he knows (or, if he has any brains/social knowledge, should know) that he will probably face prosecution if they did not give consent and decide to take legal action:

SilverChair wrote:

If there is no resistance of any kind how is he to know there is no consent?

Please note that I'm well aware that it is not just men that perpetrate sexual assault and I firmly believe that the law should take into account those men who are victims of sexual assault (whether by another man or a woman).

Saruman

victim wrote: »

i came back after a few drinks (not drunk) and went asleep. i wake up to find my male best friend feeling me up and grinding his ****ing knob against my ass (we were in a spoon position). I didnt say anything cos i was petrified that if i resisted ide be raped.

Im sorry... this is crap... You were scared your male best friend was going to rape you? FFS what kind of best friend was he?

Im sorry i have feck all experience in these matters.. however...
I slept fully clothed on the same bed as my female friend. During the night my hands wandered slightly and then i kissed her etc. That was it, she did not say go ahead, she was pretty much sleeping as was i, barely aware of what we were doing. I got no consent from her.

anyway we are now happily married... this consent thing is a very grey area... She did not DENY consent, she did nothing.. and if she remembers what happened then she was awake enough that if she seriously did not want something to happen then she could have said so.

She let it happen, for whatever reason and now regrets it and told her boyfriend.
I do not think the OP did anything wrong, unless she did resist and he went ahead anyway.

What a lot of people are saying is. if a girl came up to me, started kissing me (without asking permission)and then walked away... she has sexually assaulted me and should be prosecuted as such?
What about when you are out with a girl, no one asks permission, they simply go for it.. this goes for both sexes. Its only if resistance is met that there is a problem, otherwise consent is implied.

MagicMarker

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

Ok, my statement that "This attitude from some guys that because a woman wasn't kicking and screaming to get away they must have been "up for it" is imo quite sickening" is a bit OTT, I'll admit, but the attitude displayed by the following is just foolish from any guy when he knows (or, if he has any brains/social knowledge, should know) that he will probably face prosecution if they did not give consent and decide to take legal action:



Please note that I'm well aware that it is not just men that perpetrate sexual assault and I firmly believe that the law should take into account those men who are victims of sexual assault (whether by another man or a woman).

In SilverChair's defense, i can obviously see the point he's trying to make. If you're at a party and end up spooning with a girl for whatever reason. SOME men might try their luck. If she didn't object then i would imagine a lot of those drunken men at the party spooning with that drunken girl might think ''it's ooon''.

If you're at a party and chance your arm with a girl and kiss her. Are you always going to ask before hand? Probably not, you'll chance your arm and hope you're not shot down. Sometimes it might ''feel right'' to just go for it.

If a girls spooning with you, then i could see why a guy would think it ''feels right'' to go for it.

Like i said, i'm NOT CONDONING anything.

Boston

You should definitely go to the gardi and outline your side of the story as you have above.

Saruman

Boston wrote: »

You should definitely go to the gardi and outline your side of the story as you have above.

And if the guy does come knocking... you have warned the Garda that you were threatened.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Barlow07

dryrape wrote: »

I was at a friends party recently and lot of drink was consumed, anyway towards the end of the nite everyone was kinda passed out around the place, I ended up slumped against a girl and we kinda got ina spooning position. during the nite my hands got more and more curious and i ended up feeling her up but she never objected to it, now 2 days later i get a text from her bfriend saying he's going to beat the **** out of me and i raped her,
Im thinkin of going to the gaurds but im afraid theyll take her side. Im doing social studies and if im convicted of rape well thats my career over essentially , there was no witnesses as far as i could see

I think we need some more details. Was this girl awake at all while you where feeling her up? Did she anything to you durning this act or was she passed out? I think if she was passed and said nothing then you took advantage of the girl and deserve what maybe coming. If you where both drunk and had consumed alot of drink then she was just as much in the wrong and this would be a reason i would go to the guards to make a statement. Why would this girl tell her boyfriend all this unless she was that pi**ed and is getting flashbacks from the nightbefore ( it does happen ) and she probably pannicking slightly. What have all your friends said or do they know this? I wouldnt be worried about boyfriend to be honest, stand up for self even if he is bigger then. I think though you may need to talk to a family member, i would suggest and older brother or sister as im sure your worried what your parents may say or how they react. I would advise that you confide with some at least this may make you feel slight better.

I think all the females who accusing the OP of rape or being a pervert are jumping the gun a bit, how many people have accused someone of rape and found to be not guilty?? I've read a few in the papers this week and last week. I'm not defending the OP, but i jsut think most females/girls are always quite quick to accuse someone when they may not be in the wrong. Its a bit like a coloured person always throwing the racist comment in when they are having an argument etc.

subway

Saruman wrote: »

She let it happen, for whatever reason and now regrets it and told her boyfriend.

the reason, perhaps, being the terror of being sexually assaulted?
the girl wakes up to find some random bloke doing something unspeakable and is too scared to let him know she is awake?
afraid, that if he knows she is awake he will take it further, or use violence against her?

and after surviving the ordeal, with her physical self intact, tells her boyfriend?

this is a completely impossible situation for you to comprehend?

she may have "let" it happen, however the sitauation described does not imply that she consented willingly.
how many women every year "let" themselves be raped to save their life?

your attitude really disturbs me.

Barlow07

subway wrote: »

the reason, perhaps, being the terror of being sexually assaulted?
the girl wakes up to find some random bloke doing something unspeakable and is too scared to let him know she is awake?
afraid, that if he knows she is awake he will take it further, or use violence against her?

and after surviving the ordeal, with her physical self intact, tells her boyfriend?

this is a completely impossible situation for you to comprehend?

she may have "let" it happen, however the sitauation described does not imply that she consented willingly.
how many women every year "let" themselves be raped to save their life?

I agree with your post subway and this could may well be why she told her boyfriend. I still think the OP needs to let us know if the girl was awake or if she was even feeling himself back or if had made a comment the next morning on went on.

Overheal

Saruman wrote:

Its only if resistance is met that there is a problem, otherwise consent is implied.

Oh, I see. If I slip the pill in her drink and she accepts the beverage, then passes out cold, you consider that implicated consent.

The girl was passed out and/or drunk. Consent is out the window.

PeakOutput

subway wrote: »

the reason, perhaps, being the terror of being sexually assaulted?
the girl wakes up to find some random bloke doing something unspeakable and is too scared to let him know she is awake?
afraid, that if he knows she is awake he will take it further, or use violence against her?

and after surviving the ordeal, with her physical self intact, tells her boyfriend?

this is a completely impossible situation for you to comprehend?

she may have "let" it happen, however the sitauation described does not imply that she consented willingly.
how many women every year "let" themselves be raped to save their life?

your attitude really disturbs me.

the point is we dont know that that is what happened. how do you know she was asleep at all? if she was awake in the first place why did she let him spoon if she wasnt interested.

i honestly dont think i know any girl who simply do nothing if a guy they had no interested was advancing on them. at the very least you can walk away the op was not forcing her to do anything......he was completely wrong but if she was awake and did nothing i find it suspect and a few days(not straight away) later tells her fella this or that happeed id find it very suspect tbh

Saruman

Thats possible Subway... However this was a crouded house, the room was full of people... i hardly think it likely she thought she was going to be raped.

PeakOutput

Overheal wrote: »

Oh, I see. If I slip the pill in her drink and she accepts the beverage, then passes out cold, you consider that implicated consent.

when was the last time you asked your bf/gf/husband/**** buddy for permission to feel/kiss/lick/hug????? exactly you dont. i know of one situation in my life where i have asked a girl their permission directly to kiss them and i felt like a ****ing eejit for doing it after(although they said yes) so have i sexually assaulted all the girls iv been with? no i havent because consent is implied by their previous actions.

The girl was passed out and/or drunk. Consent is out the window.

being with someone who is drunk is not in itself a bad thing and we do not know if she was asleep but the op did imply it alright

Overheal

PeakOutput wrote: »

when was the last time you asked your bf/gf/husband/**** buddy for permission to feel/kiss/lick/hug????? exactly you dont. i know of one situation in my life where i have asked a girl their permission directly to kiss them and i felt like a ****ing eejit for doing it after(although they said yes) so have i sexually assaulted all the girls iv been with? no i havent because consent is implied by their previous actions.

being with someone who is drunk is not in itself a bad thing and we do not know if she was asleep but the op did imply it alright

Well she was asleep then: theres no reciprocation; theres no consent. Its one thing if you both start eating each others faces, quite another if your dry humping her in her sleep.

PeakOutput

Overheal wrote: »

Well she was asleep then: theres no reciprocation; theres no consent. Its one thing if you both start eating each others faces, quite another if your dry humping her in her sleep.

i think its quite obvious people are talking about general cases and not the op's individual case when they say consent is implied

subway

Saruman wrote: »

Thats possible Subway... However this was a crouded house, the room was full of people... i hardly think it likely she thought she was going to be raped.

i dont know if enough of the situation, and i certainly cant comment on the girls state of mind, to say how likely the scenario i described above is.

the point i raise is that you say this girl "let" it happen, whatever the "reason".
there are numpous "reasons" this girl may have "let" it happen which still imply that a sexual assualt happened.

i dont even know why i need to explain this to you, but you seem to think that sexual assualt cant happen in the corner of a crowded room, even when the other people arent passed out.

Agent Smith

rb_ie wrote: »

To be honest OP, you'd be getting off light if all you got was a beating.

If I were her boyfriend, rather than going and kicking lumps out of you, I'd just have you done for sexual assault which would be far, far worse than a beating.

If you were sober enough to remember the whole thing, then you were certainly sober enough to keep your hands to yourself, to find somewhere to sleep by yourself etc.

You've fcked up badly, there'll be consequences so just hope they're not on the legal side of things.

Good luck with it.

and from what i've heard, they really dont look kindly on sex offenders in prison....

Saruman

Right but the point is, she remembered what happened so she was not asleep for the whole thing and could have objected at any time. She was in a room full of other people so all she had to do was raise an objection.
And like i said, the op was probably almost asleep himself.. it happens. I have been woken by my wife, yet still been pretty much asleep and we only both woke up when we were in the actual act. She says i start it, im sure she did. Niether of us raped or assaulted the other.. like i said, the consent was implied. If she did not want anything to do with him then she should have made sure she slept alone and not cuddled up with another guy.

I think the problem here is this is too much of a grey area for any of us to comment properly as we were not involved or even there.
I just do not like the fact some posters jumped on the bandwagon and shouted rape and sexual assault when it clearly was not meant that way. (according to the OP anyway)

Boston

Saruman wrote: »

Right but the point is, she remembered what happened so she was not asleep for the whole thing and could have objected at any time. She was in a room full of other people so all she had to do was raise an objection.
And like i said, the op was probably almost asleep himself.. it happens. I have been woken by my wife, yet still been pretty much asleep and we only both woke up when we were in the actual act. She says i start it, im sure she did. Niether of us raped or assaulted the other.. like i said, the consent was implied. If she did not want anything to do with him then she should have made sure she slept alone and not cuddled up with another guy.

I think the problem here is this is too much of a grey area for any of us to comment properly as we were not involved or even there.
I just do not like the fact some posters jumped on the bandwagon and shouted rape and sexual assault when it clearly was not meant that way. (according to the OP anyway)

You can't compare a situation where and theres an existing sexual relationship to this. Also in a drunken state of mind you can be somewhat aware of thing happening to you and around you but be unable to react to them. Wrt the idea that she should having have been in that position in the first place, I've slept with friends in the same bed, both male a female, and I think they have a reasonable expectation not to be felt up as do I.

Overheal

no the OPs case isn't rape but its not wholly innocent either. He's in control of his own body. If he loses grip on that he needs to be responsible for it.

Huggles

The OP has a starnge name for something that was "just" feelign her up.

I suspect we're not getting full story here....

Either way, I personally think you will be doing well to just get a beating.

Tigger

Boston wrote: »

You should definitely go to the gardi and outline your side of the story as you have above.

yes go to the gardi

antodeco

PeakOutput wrote: »

when was the last time you asked your bf/gf/husband/**** buddy for permission to feel/kiss/lick/hug????? exactly you dont. i know of one situation in my life where i have asked a girl their permission directly to kiss them and i felt like a ****ing eejit for doing it after(although they said yes) so have i sexually assaulted all the girls iv been with? no i havent because consent is implied by their previous actions.

Agree totally. If this was not the case EVERYTIME you kissed someone/slept with someone, it would be classed as sexual assault/rape. However, without knowing full details (sneaking suspicion that with a name of "dryrape" he is withholding ALOT of information) we cannot say yes or no to it being sexual assualt. I have kissed random people, as Im sure a fair few others here have. Judging on what alot of people have said, we should all be on the sexual registrar. Yes, feeling someone up, "sleep humping" someone is totally different, but some of the comments are a little OTT on this topic..

Tigger

Saruman wrote: »

And if the guy does come knocking... you have warned the Garda that you were threatened.

the gaurds will not like to here this but at least you won't be ded
you'll not do time for it you'll be fine just explain that you thought she was asleep

spurious

For someone I have already been involved with sexually, consent can be implied. For a first time with someone, I will ALWAYS check that this is what they want. It doesn't have to be a big rigmarole, a simple 'are you OK with this?' is fine.

Jack B. Badd

rbd wrote: »

you'll not do time for it you'll be fine just explain that you thought she was asleep

Ah but Mr. Garda, I didn't realise that it was illegal to sexually assault a girl in her sleep, when she can't give consent. Sure, it's not like she said no...
*sigh*

Tigger

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

Ah but Mr. Garda, I didn't realise that it was illegal to sexually assault a girl in her sleep, when she can't give consent. Sure, it's not like she said no...
*sigh*

exactly it'll be fine the gaurds will make it all better

otherwise i'd say her bf is gonna get all his mates together at chrombo and really hurt you