New type of NTL box

warrenstown

Hey everyone,
We moved into a new apt in Dublin and we brought our regular NTL box with us and transferred the account. An engineer called out (on the day they said he would and early too!) and installed new box. It's the size of a DVD player (doesn't look like a DVR box) and it has UPC on it, he gave us a new remote too.
And it's ****e!

We no longer have volume control through the box, even though there's a volume button on the remote. You can no longer browse through TV channels, you have to go into the new (and very slow) guide to look what's on and there's no reset button which fixed all when NTL frequnetly crashed!

Anyone else using this box? It came with no instructions, which was nice...

pizzahead77

Any idea what brand it is?

subway

if your using scart 2 you have no sound control.

paulm17781

Did we ask NTL about the remote or where on their website the instructions are (they are there)?

It's universal so you can set the remote volume to your TV, very handy. There is also a box volume in settings.

The new guide while slow to load, is fine once loaded, it removes the need to use browse as you can watch the channel you were watching while on the guide, it is actually better than the browse button IMHO.

It doesn't have the reset button as it doesn't crash.

I love how people complain about change or NTL every opportunity they get. :rolleyes:

mike65

It doesn't have the reset button as it doesn't crash.

Is that a money-back guarantee? if so I'll have one.

Mike.

paulm17781

mike65 wrote: »

Is that a money-back guarantee? if so I'll have one.

As I don't work for UPC I can't offer said refund. Perhaps check with UPC what form of guarantee is available. If this is unsatisfactory, check with a solicitor, anything written on a message board is unlikely to be binding, unless it is a companies own board and something they have placed on it. I can tell you I've had one since it came out and it has never crashed.

DingDong

Here's a link to the new box
http://www.pacemicro.com/corporate/products/productDetails.asp?nav=products&productID=DCABLE-DC621KU
I've been told it to make way for interactive and VOD. It uses the same guide and remote as the dvr

flogen

DingDong is spot on... (that kind of rhymes), although I'm not sure if he's right about the type of box (he may well be).

Anyway, UPC/NTL/Chorus are rolling out new boxes across the service that will allow for interactive and VOD services. I was under the impression that they'd be the exact same box as the PVR (which is made by Thomson rather than Pace), just without a HDD but I could well be wrong there... would seem odd for UPC to have deals with more than one STB manufacturer at a time when it's not really neeed but not out of the realm of possibility.

And you should be able to set the remote to be your TV remote which IMO is far better than the old system where you needed both your TV and NTL remote to get the volume right.

DingDong

Thats the right box flogen. The new guide works alot better than the old one which was terrible. The only thing I miss is the use of the browse on the old box . The new browse function could do with showing more than just now and next. Like flogen said the remote being able to turn your TV's volume up and down is a hell of alot better than the old one.

warrenstown

paulm17781 wrote: »

Did we ask NTL about the remote or where on their website the instructions are (they are there)?

It's universal so you can set the remote volume to your TV, very handy. There is also a box volume in settings.

The new guide while slow to load, is fine once loaded, it removes the need to use browse as you can watch the channel you were watching while on the guide, it is actually better than the browse button IMHO.

It doesn't have the reset button as it doesn't crash.

I love how people complain about change or NTL every opportunity they get. :rolleyes:

Wow, what a helpful and friendly reply, thanks....
As for complaining about NTL, it's a 2nd rate service compared to Sky so complain I will!
As for everyone else, thanks for your help.

Anyway, my housemate stumbled upon the browse facility. Hit the OK button and the right arrow and there you have it.
Who needs a button with 'browse' on it eh?!

flogen

DingDong wrote: »

Thats the right box flogen. The new guide works alot better than the old one which was terrible. The only thing I miss is the use of the browse on the old box . The new browse function could do with showing more than just now and next. Like flogen said the remote being able to turn your TV's volume up and down is a hell of alot better than the old one.

Not entirely surprised that they'd have different manufacturers for each box type.

I assume the remote and/or EPG is the same as on the DVR - it's certainly better but I agree about the Now/Next thing... bit of a pain having to go into the full guide to see what's on later (which on my box takes about 3-4 seconds to load.)

Fresh Pots

I have one of the old pace boxes, does this mean i am entitled to one of the new ones, or is it just for new customers?

maxg

The pace dc621ku box is the new nagra2 box and it looks like the great box exchange will start next year.

watty

Then the pirate boxes will be turned off. Be warned not to waste your money on what will be a door stop.

MisterAnarchy

watty wrote: »

Then the pirate boxes will be turned off. Be warned not to waste your money on what will be a door stop.

Alot of them will indeed,but it will only be a matter of time before Nagra 2 is cracked,to be honest UPC should be aiming for Nagra 3 at least.
Nagra 2 is only a stopgap.
Its nice to see UPC doing a good job here after the shambles that Chorus was.
Give Sky some competition at last.

watty

watty wrote: »

Then the pirate boxes will be turned off. Be warned not to waste your money on what will be a door stop.

It will be intresting to see how long it takes them to roll out the new ones. They will have to replace every one in an area before they switch off the old service.

Not a small job, and alot of houses to visit!

laoisfan

paulm17781 wrote: »

As I don't work for UPC I can't offer said refund. Perhaps check with UPC what form of guarantee is available. If this is unsatisfactory, check with a solicitor, anything written on a message board is unlikely to be binding, unless it is a companies own board and something they have placed on it. I can tell you I've had one since it came out and it has never crashed.

so because yours has never crashed you assume that nobody else's will crash either?

po0k

solarFlares++

paulm17781

laoisfan wrote: »

so because yours has never crashed you assume that nobody else's will crash either?

No, they've changed the rubbish software that used to crash daily. Mine has never crashed. If we really want to go into this we can. "Linux never crashes" is also said. I've seen several distos of Linux crash several times. My point was we don't have the need for the reset button that we used to have.

It's amazing, you defend NTL, with a little paraphrasing, where one poster is complaining without actually asking and a bunch of people jump at you. I'm glad no one else ever makes mistakes. :rolleyes:

DingDong

I think Paul should at least be tarred and feathered

paulm17781

DingDong wrote: »

I think Paul should at least be tarred and feathered

It's the least I deserve.

rogue-entity

Regarding the current NTL Conditional Access.. if they changed the keys fast enough, assuming the keys can be remotely changed as they can with VideoGuard, then it would render the pirate boxes a pain to use, as they dont auto-update and would stop working as soon as the keys changed as far as I know.

Better still, UPC should look at switching to VideoGuard, if that's even possible.

paulm17781

rogue-entity wrote: »

Better still, UPC should look at switching to VideoGuard, if that's even possible.

Is that the one Sky use? Is the Sky digital one relatively uncrackable?

brianbruff

rogue-entity wrote: »

Regarding the current NTL Conditional Access.. if they changed the keys fast enough, assuming the keys can be remotely changed as they can with VideoGuard, then it would render the pirate boxes a pain to use, as they dont auto-update and would stop working as soon as the keys changed as far as I know.

Better still, UPC should look at switching to VideoGuard, if that's even possible.

I'd disagree,
all the pirate boxes i know of AU, even the cards the people use these days AU.

They'd have to keep playing with the keyroll emm to cause problems for these pirate boxes.

SteM

brianbruff wrote: »

I'd disagree,
all the pirate boxes i know of AU, even the cards the people use these days AU.

They'd have to keep playing with the keyroll emm to cause problems for these pirate boxes.

I was thinking the same. I know that my mate has a box and he says it definitely updates on its own.

pa990

Videoguard is owned by NDS (newscorp/sky) they wont allow anyone else use or manufacture that type of encryption.

Its their way of keeping it secure


I'm not gonna talk about Nagra 1/2/3 or auto rolling , as i might get my knuckles rapped.

( I've been made feel like a bold boy for asking realitively simple general knowledge questions about encryption before )

Tomas_V

brianbruff wrote: »

They'd have to keep playing with the keyroll emm to cause problems for these pirate boxes.

Well if UPC can run a 2-way Internet connection to your house, they can effectively validate your decoder.

It's small wonder the purveyors of the non-UPC supplied decoders are frantically trying to shift them, it's only a matter of time before they'll be rendered useless.

Caveat Emptor.

L1011

pa990 wrote: »

Videoguard is owned by NDS (newscorp/sky) they wont allow anyone else use or manufacture that type of encryption.

They will. Its just HORRIFICALLY expensive to licence, which is why its mostly News Corp companies that use it. The DVB version of it has never been hacked so there's no point asking about it; the DSS (early digital standard in the US) is in ribbons though.

miftha

Tomas_V wrote: »

Well if UPC can run a 2-way Internet connection to your house, they can effectively validate your decoder.

It's small wonder the purveyors of the non-UPC supplied decoders are frantically trying to shift them, it's only a matter of time before they'll be rendered useless.

Caveat Emptor.

MMDS is a one way system so this will not work! I also assume MMDS will not be able to avail of VOD, etc this way.

Nagra2 already cracked!

L1011

miftha wrote: »

MMDS is a one way system so this will not work! I also assume MMDS will not be able to avail of VOD, etc this way.

Nagra2 already cracked!

DVB-RCT means two way on MMDS is entirely possible. Whether it will get used or not is another question entirely.

watty

There is no spectrum for DVB-RCT on MMDS. Comreg reduced the MMDS spectrum. DVB-RCT is only just possible on Terrestrial and was succesfully trialled. But it's now been abandoned. The only company to ever produce HW is only doing WiMax gear.

However there are OTHER ways to add broadband by wireless to MMDS users. Check the Broadband forum FAQ. However UPC won't be fussing about Broadband to MMDS subscribers till all the other issues are up to date.

watty

miftha wrote: »

MMDS is a one way system so this will not work! I also assume MMDS will not be able to avail of VOD, etc this way.

Nagra2 already cracked!

I'd not be too sure that they can't release an uncracked Nagra2.
MMDS can do VOD same way as Cable, Freeview and Satellite. It's much more efficent to have a broadcast hidden channel that fills a hidden partition on the PVR HDD. A 10,000x saving compared with IPTV VOD. Then when you look at VOD catalogue, you are playing back hidden HDD content.

It's an excellent system and with terabyte disks soon to be common you can easily have a 200 to 500 film catalogue and the least wanted 100 replaced every month. You fill preferences too so the "cache" never fills with stuff you never what to watch.

Sponge Bob

I was told they want to turn an area off (old signal of some sort) in each main city BEFORE christmas and thereby brick the pirate boxes .

An 'area' is fairly small I think , maybe 500 houses .....of whom some 200 are paying subscribers

watty

It's common to run dual encryption during a change over period.
Then turn off the older encryption. Some of the so called "Nagra 2" cracks are really Nagra1 and the jolly rogers stop working.

Tomas_V

Tomas_V wrote: »

Well if UPC can run a 2-way Internet connection to your house, they can effectively validate your decoder.

It's small wonder the purveyors of the non-UPC supplied decoders are frantically trying to shift them, it's only a matter of time before they'll be rendered useless.

Caveat Emptor.

Everyone gets the same signal, it is a broadcast network.

So if the underlying encryption is defeated it doesn't mater what phone home or validation is done.

Tomas_V

ronoc wrote: »

Everyone gets the same signal, it is a broadcast network.

TCP/IP is more complex.

L1011

ronoc wrote: »

Everyone gets the same signal, it is a broadcast network.

So if the underlying encryption is defeated it doesn't mater what phone home or validation is done.

That signal is encrypted, what makes you think a single key is used to encrypt it? Look at how "premium" channels on Sky are restricted to specific *receivers*, let alone cards.

Its entirely impossible for UPC to allow only specific decoders to decrypt, assuming they use a modern encryption system, whether its "broken" or not.

SatFreak

Yes Nagra2 is cracked, mainly because nargra 2 is big on the Sat scene.
and parts of nagra3 are cracked! the spanish Iris for one, the dream is now also able to use the card for Sharing.

However the Nargra2 ROM110 revision A05 used is Ireland has not been cracked... yet.. but there are chaps currently disassembling the images trying to figure them out..
All this information can be easily seen on other forums more orientated to that sort of thing.

Anyone with a bit of time can spend a few afternoons on the net and find all the information and hardware they need to modify and existing Nagra1 card for free tv, or even find a UK supplier that sells these new STB pre loaded with the required software.

With the tech era it's becoming more and more common to find some chap in they pub boasting how he makes hundres of pounds a week flogging an illegal service.. somethings gotta give.

Nagra2 rollout here in the UK for 2010 had been mentioned but i'd take that with a pinch of salt as well, for 2010 i personally would expect the n2 and seca beast we currently call nagra3, in the interm I do not expect to see the cable companies just sit back and roll their eyes.

Something has got to be done, what.. newer encryptoin? ya it will work for a while... it will be a constant battle, I think they need to be more proactive as well, you mention the major sat provider here and cardsharing in the one sentence on any uk forum and you'll be banned, they take it very serioulsy, The cable companies need more that just new encryptions to keep the masses at bay.

icdg

Guys, this thread is a hair away from being closed. I remind you of the rules - "DON'T Discuss hacking systems."

Tomas_V

Tomas_V wrote: »

TCP/IP is more complex.

I'm talking about the layer below it with regards to your cable connection.

Your DSL or ISDN are switched networks.

The cable internet connection is not it is a broadcast newtork.

Tomas_V

ronoc wrote: »

I'm talking about the layer below it with regards to your cable connection.

If every cable connection is complimented by a 2-way TCP/IP connection, then UPC could change the encryption at their end and only send the key and protocol by TCP/IP to fully-paid-up customers. They could update the whole decryption module remotely. Same tech could get the MAC address of the customer's kit and brick it if it's known to be stolen or cloned.

Once it becomes too much hassle to steal service, people will do without or pay if they really want it.

Andy454

The problem seems to be shockingly high for NTL - I was on my way to work this morning and overheard a fullscale conversation on getting these boxes!

Why doesn't NTL do it the "old fashioned" way and seperate the digital and analogue frequencies and then sepearate the digital frequencies based on pack then put a 30cent filter on everyones connection to limit the reception of signals based on the packaged they've subscribed?

If a household is not a digital subscriber - put a filter on their connection to limit them to analogue only.

They could even do it with the movies and sports packages - Its a practise that the US cable companies used and still use today to prevent people stealing cable!

And it would be a cheaper solution than upgrading to murdochs NDS - a filter costs what 10cents?

watty

Filtering doesn't work here because the cabling and connections are exposed.

It also wastes channels, encourages physical attacks on cable plant and adds cost.

Andy454

But thats kind of specious reasoning - most new estates have burried cables, and the majority of people won't be climbing up ladders to mess with cable splitters - and as with most filters in the U.S. they're normally tamper proof.

It would be easier for UPC to catch people tampering with these filters than to go into their houses and look whats under the Tv's!

Solair

It's like a lot of people don't seem to even comprehend that these fake boxes are illegal though, particularly in Dublin.

lensman

Tomas_V wrote: »

Well if UPC can run a 2-way Internet connection to your house, they can effectively validate your decoder.

It's small wonder the purveyors of the non-UPC supplied decoders are frantically trying to shift them, it's only a matter of time before they'll be rendered useless.

Caveat Emptor.

a very very long time, in fact waiting in the wings are the HD PVR versions with all nagra rom levels cracked & ready to go, the CC will just have to live with it, a bit of research will tell you that these boxes are coming from state of the art factories in China some of which also make the legit boxes for CC all over the world

DingDong

Andy454 wrote: »

But thats kind of specious reasoning - most new estates have burried cables, and the majority of people won't be climbing up ladders to mess with cable splitters - and as with most filters in the U.S. they're normally tamper proof.

It would be easier for UPC to catch people tampering with these filters than to go into their houses and look whats under the Tv's!

It theory your idea sounds simply. But think about it, you have to pay for the filter and having it fit, multiply that by X amount of connections on cable customer and non customer(its a large number). You wouldn't be long before running into a couple of million in costs. Then you would have tools popping up for sale to remove the device plus fake filters so it looks filtered etc. Not to mention people cutting into the cable to get free service, while knocking off paying customers.

Solair

UPC's launch in Ireland's seeing a major move away from generic off the shelf cable boxes and technology for the first time. UPC are a huge outfit and design and specify all their own technology. Neither Chorus nor NTL Ireland had that luxury.

It means UPC have nearly as much control as Sky over their boxes. It's going to take a while to move away from the older NTL and Chorus boxes, but you can be damn sure that the new boxes are going to allow a jump to much tighter encryption.

Both NTL and Chorus were always rolling out the cheapest / most cost effective technologies they could lay their hands on. That's not the case with UPC, it's rolling out much better equipment.

Capt'n Midnight

If part of the encryptioning system is based on the smart card then shouldn't it be upgradabe to a more secure system in future ?
Like the way SKY has done several times

You don't need two way to brick a box if it's capable of taking an update over the cable (cf. SKY boxes and their serial numbers , the way subscriptions / cards / boxes are matched)

As people have mentioned before UPC don't make a lot of money on subscription channels as they have to hand most of the money back so they aren't loosing a lot of money in the short term. Perhaps they are allowing people to get a taste of digital, maybe it's to wean people off analog so they can turn off earlier, maybe it's to stop people defecting to SKY, maybe they can't supply enough digital boxes. Or maybe it's that the cost of chasing them and changing the encryption system is more than they loose in revenue.

But once the revenue loss outweighs the costs of changing the encryption methodology or changing the cards they will most likely change.




UPC using a Filter to block them is no use, a legit digital box only costs a fiver more than the basic package. €60 a year, wouldn't cover the call out to fit / remove the filter nevermind the extra hassle.

Solair

I suspect they will be shutting off analogue cable in the short to medium term, other than perhaps the 4 basic channels, this is already the case on the UPC cable network in Cork. They need to bandwidth for digital services and broadband.

UPC do make quite a bit of money out of subscription services. These illegal boxes decode everything, not just the basic digital TV package which is really just a replacement for analogue cable.

The problem is that people are hacking premium channels and pay per view stuff

As much as I'm not a huge fan of UPC, it's really a totally crazy situation.

I don't think the security on the NTL and Chorus digital platforms was up to much. They didn't invest anything in the network over the last while, so its not really surprising that its hacked to bits at this stage.

UPC is a major regime change!

Fitting filters on much of the urban cable network in Ireland would be next to impossible. A large % of the cable is running on the fronts of houses and has to be accessed by going in with a ladder to the individual cable tap.

It's different in the US and elsewhere where each cable connection comes back to an on-street cabinet and they can fit filters there.

You'd be looking at a huge amount of labour intensive work to get those filters fitted and, as a poster pointed out, there would be an incentive to tamper physically with the network to get service. When the network's running along people's private property it's rather easy to do that too.

For this reason, robust encryption is their best option and the one that they are going for.

bk

Solair wrote: »

I suspect they will be shutting off analogue cable in the short to medium term, other than perhaps the 4 basic channels, this is already the case on the UPC cable network in Cork. They need to bandwidth for digital services and broadband.

I don't think it will happen for another 10 years.

Something like 80% of UPC's customers in NTL areas are still on analogue.

These people aren't going to move over any time soon and UPC aren't just going to drop 80% of their customers.

It was easier in Cork, as you already needed a box for even analogue, but it will be different in NTL areas.

I'd say that the danger for UPC, is that if they push too hard to switch off analogue, many people will end up going FreeSat.