St. Lukes Hospital Protest Ad

daveirl

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leninbenjamin

daveirl wrote: »

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boards is a privately owned and run operation... the admins can do whatever they like.

Vexorg

Boards only has one chosen campaign currently "Santa Strike Force", we can give up some space to other campaigns and until they start to become problematic, & hopefully they wont, we can support a number of campaigns.

I would not say we are getting into the business of choosing a cause, we have been asked to make announcements many times for what a user describes as a good cause, as announcements can be overwritten, I have offered higher visibility via a banner, no one has taken us up on the offer of a banner until now.

If it is something the becomes more frequent, I would like the community to decide what campaigns are run. Right now we are just testing the water.

Do you see any downside or potential issue?

daveirl

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Sully

To be fair this is something completely different to a law on driving licenses.

daveirl

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Sully

Well thats because everybody drives pretty much. Not everybody has cancer and there is a far lower amount of people who are pushed about the closure of a hospital. I can see where your coming from, but this is more advertising an event but I believe the last one was arranging an event within boards (which isnt needed now anyway)

Boston

I think this is an absolutely huge issue for boards.ie and I'm pretty amazed how mute the discussion has been on it. This is boards first venture in becoming a political machine. So many things in the past have just dynamically grown to become a part of boards without any plain. I really thing someone needs to sit down and think out the long term implications of this one, and always be mindful that just because you can't see a negative side to something, doesn't mean their isn't one.

leninbenjamin

Boston wrote: »

I really thing someone needs to sit down and think out the long term implications of this one, and always be mindful that just because you can't see a negative side to something, doesn't mean their isn't one.

that's such a pessimistic attitude though. I mean you could put forward that argument in relation to anything, and ultimately if you adhere to it you'll never make progress...

Boston

Its realistic. There are negatives to everything in life.

leninbenjamin

Boston wrote: »

Its realistic. There are negatives to everything in life.

I know. but still... there's a chance i'll slip on the pavement and break my neck by landing awkwardly but it doesn't stop me from going outside. You can't quantify the negatives, you can't say they'll necessarily have more weight than the positives, indeed the only way you can is by trial and error frankly, theorizing will only get you so far on an issue. I don't see anything wrong with boards giving it's weight, albeit tentatively and selectively to certain issues, yes it might alienate some but that doesn't necessarily mean it's existence as an institution will be threatened or altered dramatically. the admins aren't going to start preaching fundamentalist dogma all of a sudden now are they?

Boston

So eyes closed and hope for the best? What ever way you cut it, this is a shift in what boards.ie is about. Now that may be a good thing, it may be a bad thing, but its no small thing.

leninbenjamin

Boston wrote: »

So eyes closed and hope for the best?

have you devised some mathematical model that will allow us to evaluate fully the potential outcomes of any actions taken then?

people are reactionary by nature. if this is a course of action the admins wish to take they aren't going to be able to determine the attitudes of boardsies to anything until that strategy has been chosen. they might be able to garner some insight from some, but they certainly won't be able to plan for the possible outcomes of any action based on reason and discussion alone.

daveirl

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Sully

Well, its a tough one. This is a lot more serious then a driving license law. Its not a "Boards Event" its more advertised on Boards.

I do agree it needs a proper discussion to rule in & out what can and cant be said etc..

homah_7ft

Could someone post up what is being discussed here?

Boston

leninbenjamin wrote: »

have you devised some mathematical model that will allow us to evaluate fully the potential outcomes of any actions taken then?

people are reactionary by nature. if this is a course of action the admins wish to take they aren't going to be able to determine the attitudes of boardsies to anything until that strategy has been chosen. they might be able to garner some insight from some, but they certainly won't be able to plan for the possible outcomes of any action based on reason and discussion alone.

Listen, we have brains in our heads so me can evaluate the likely outcomes of our actions. Just because you can't predict with absolute certainty the outcome of an event, doesn't mean you can't have a fair stab at it based on past experience. Its call learning from ones mistakes. This is a discussion forum, why are you so afraid of discussion.

Vexorg

Would you categorise IOFFL as political?

I do not see this as a political statement, and if it was a political statement how does it differ from boards allowing and promoting IOFFL and Digital Rights Ireland among other things?

I currently cannot see a downside to allow a group to draw attention to something like this, but but would listen to a compelling argument.

V.

Sully

homah_7ft wrote: »

Could someone post up what is being discussed here?

There is an add running on boards about the closer of a cancer hospital, and a protest has been organised. A previous request was made in the mod forum around the time of the new driving licence laws, they wanted to organize a protest through boards (IIRC) and it was heavily rejected.

So.. Dave is asking pretty much whats the difference, and should such political stuff be run here.

padser

It seems to me that there are two questions.

1) Is Should boards be involved in political events
2) Is this a political event

From a personal point of view point 1 is easier to answer. To echo what DaveIrl has already said I would currently view boards as a community without political affiliations. Obviously the admins can choose what direction they want the site in, but if they do begin to allow political activism then boards is unlikely to remain a cross section (if an internet community ever is a cross section) of Irish society.

If we agree that political activism is not something we want on boards then we move onto the second question - is this a political event?

It's certainly boarderline. It's not about 'saving a hospital' per say - the government is trying to reform cancer treatment in Ireland. Whether you agree or disagree with them is IMO a political opinion.

If you agree to advertise this event will you advetise in the same way a Fine Fail election event before the next election? If so, will you do something similar for Sinn Fein? I assume the only practical way to regulate it would be for the admins to decide which they will advertise (as you can't advertise everything) - or to delagate the decision to Mods etc. Either way once you start making decisions about what to advertise boards has become a politicised IMO.

So (in my opinion at any rate) if you decide you don't want to turn boards into a somewhat politicised website you need to refuse to advertise anything political - (or at least charge normal rates for the advertisement).

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

not wanted to ignite a debate on the issue - but there is the problem that there are too many cancer care hospitals in the country, and none of them having sufficient expertise. The logical thing is to close down some hospital's cancer-care facilities in order to make the rest of the hospitals have a concentration of expertise.

Boston

Vexorg wrote: »

Would you categorise IOFFL as political?

I do not see this as a political statement, and if it was a political statement how does it differ from boards allowing and promoting IOFFL and Digital Rights Ireland among other things?

I always associated anything under hosting as being some separate from boards.ie. More kinda like something being facilitated by boards rather then support. But you make a good point about IOFFL, I guess to a degree boards.ie has been always political in that it facilitated campaigns. And one can use boards as a platform to promote a campaign I even see it over on the airsoft forum. I difference I see now is moving from a passive role to an active role. By advertising campaigns and actively plugging them, boards is driving the issues forward as oppose to just letting it happen. Keep in mind that I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing.

I currently cannot see a downside to allow a group to draw attention to something like this, but but would listen to a compelling argument.

V.

The main thing which makes me apprehensive is that campaigns like the saint lukes one are regularly hi-jacked by others to their own ends. The majority in my view end up being associated with some political grouping and person. That for me is the danger, that people will begin to see this as something which can be manipulated. For example allot Gay-rights campaigns end up being used by people with agendas for their own means. I really wouldn't like to see boards.ie being used by some TD or political group as a means to get more votes. I kinda associate that with shilling.

Roundtower2: This is not a thread about the campaign. If you want one start it else where.

DeVore

This is a topic the admins are discussing and its an important one. None of us are sure where the line is drawn but we are all sure of one thing, Boards is a platform for discussion and we wont back away from hosting things like IOFFL etc.

We'll come to a general consensus but the input here is being read with interest too...

DeV.

nesf

DeVore wrote: »

This is a topic the admins are discussing and its an important one. None of us are sure where the line is drawn but we are all sure of one thing, Boards is a platform for discussion and we wont back away from hosting things like IOFFL etc.

We'll come to a general consensus but the input here is being read with interest too...

DeV.

There's a world of difference between IOFFL and campaigns about cancer care/hospital closures. The latter ones are divisive and far more bitterly fought. You can either pick a side or try and stay neutral wrt to politics in the broader sense. The problem with moving from a discussion platform (ie threads in Politics/Humanities/AH etc) to an activist platform (ie advertising protests), is that you risk alienating people. Especially people who don't agree with the political slant of the campaigns chosen (and it is honestly impossible to pick "worthy" campaigns without adopting or affecting a political slant).

There is merit to activism but with a volunteer site that has previously been relatively neutral wrt to campaigns etc it means there will be some fall out. If this site advertises/pushes a particular angle then it potentially could be something that people don't want to be associated with or seen to tacitly support in some way?

DeVore

Nesf, I think thats probably quite true.

However, a minor point (genuinely); we p1ss off some people just by *existing*. There are a number of people who have made it very clear to me that they would merrily dance on my grave. That was a personal dislike, it was just because we existed as an entity. I could name 20 companies right now that wouldnt entertain a phone call from us.

That said, I personally agree with your point of view.

DeV.

Crash&Burn

Hello people, my motive for asking Gerry to put up the banner was to make people aware of what was going on as I feel this topic has gone unnoticed.

I have been a user of boards threw the years maybe my post count might not show it but i am more of a "lurker" I am of no political agenda or member of any party. The reason why I got involved in trying to keep the hospital open is because my own mother was in this hospital and I think it will be a loss to the country not just dublin. I felt that a way to show was happening was to use boards as a outlet.

So I was not looking to drag boards in to a political debate but just to use it as a way to voice a problem that I feel is gripping our nation. I do not disagree with what any one has said here. I thought people should here from my self why I chose boards to help my cause.

Well thats my story and I hope people can respect it.

Thanks Gerry Tom regi and the rest of the lads

Ciaran

DeVore

In fairness to all concerned, I think we are (or should be!) looking at some sort of guidelines for future involvement in such things (rather then navel gazing a single instance) and teasing out the essence of why we might seem to "support" one thing and not another (eg: "supporting" IOFFL with a forum and not "supporting" a charity event by PMing all users...).

Discussion beings light (preferably) rather then heat and with that light we discover things. What we have discussed here has been of great assistance to the admins in coming to our decision about where to draw those lines...


DeV.

nesf

Crash&Burn wrote: »

Hello people, my motive for asking Gerry to put up the banner was to make people aware of what was going on as I feel this topic has gone unnoticed.

I have been a user of boards threw the years maybe my post count might not show it but i am more of a "lurker" I am of no political agenda or member of any party. The reason why I got involved in trying to keep the hospital open is because my own mother was in this hospital and I think it will be a loss to the country not just dublin. I felt that a way to show was happening was to use boards as a outlet.

So I was not looking to drag boards in to a political debate but just to use it as a way to voice a problem that I feel is gripping our nation. I do not disagree with what any one has said here. I thought people should here from my self why I chose boards to help my cause.

Well thats my story and I hope people can respect it.

Thanks Gerry Tom regi and the rest of the lads

Ciaran

The issue (for me anyway) isn't that the person asking for the banner has political motives (and I didn't mean to insinuate that you did), it's that the issue itself tends to be polarising politically. In this case, not everyone thinks that closing some hospitals is a bad idea and for some this is part of their personal politics. It's not up there with advertising pro-life or pro-choice protests but it's heading in that direction.

DeVore wrote: »

However, a minor point (genuinely); we p1ss off some people just by *existing*. There are a number of people who have made it very clear to me that they would merrily dance on my grave. That was a personal dislike, it was just because we existed as an entity. I could name 20 companies right now that wouldnt entertain a phone call from us.

But the site in itself is relatively apolitical or agnostic on many issues which is important in a general forum imho. Especially one that's as diverse as this one is.

leninbenjamin

nesf wrote: »

There is merit to activism but with a volunteer site that has previously been relatively neutral wrt to campaigns etc it means there will be some fall out. If this site advertises/pushes a particular angle then it potentially could be something that people don't want to be associated with or seen to tacitly support in some way?

I doubt boards users though are as varied in opinion as the overall population. the bulk of us come from a similar demographic after all judging by the fair splatterings of polls around the place. With that in mind i think there is the potential for a single cause to emerge in time that we could relatively safely rally around without alienating too many...

Any initiative would obviously have to come from general sentiments on boards in the first place, and not from a small group's convictions. Ultimately though you don't know what's going to be the result of your actions until you actually do it.

communities like this though tend to evolve over time anyway... perhaps steps like this are a natural course anyway.

Crash&Burn

nesf wrote: »

The issue (for me anyway) isn't that the person asking for the banner has political motives (and I didn't mean to insinuate that you did), it's that the issue itself tends to be polarising politically. In this case, not everyone thinks that closing some hospitals is a bad idea and for some this is part of their personal politics. It's not up there with advertising pro-life or pro-choice protests but it's heading in that direction.




But the site in itself is relatively apolitical or agnostic on many issues which is important in a general forum imho. Especially one that's as diverse as this one is.

No offence taken I just felt it was better to clear up what my motive was before it was taken out of context.

nesf

leninbenjamin wrote: »

I doubt boards users though are as varied in opinion as the overall population. the bulk of us come from a similar demographic after all judging by the fair splatterings of polls around the place. With that in mind i think there is the potential for a single cause to emerge in time that we could relatively safely rally around without alienating too many...

The thing is, political issues are divisive, even among relatively homogeneous groups. You're talking about a substantial switch from being apolitical to political, not a switch from being a slightly left leaning site to a moderately left leaning site etc.