ATM attempted robbery

GerryRyan

I'm after receiving a caution from a Garda (yesterday) for stopping some little scummer taking money off a woman at the ATM.

It was obvious enough what he was planning long before it happened. He'd been sitting on the wall nearby for a while eyeing up potential targets.

I went into the closest shop for credit and was coming back out when I say him striding towards this woman keying in her code. She had a buggy with her - bags of shopping at her side etc, so easy target for him.

I reached him just as he put an arm forward to grab the few notes. I didn't strike him or anything, just yanked him back by the hood, took the money back out of his hand and held him by the arm while one of the other lads got a Garda (station was within walking distance).

But when he arrived it was 'me' who got the caution - even after the few people still in the line backing me up.

He wouldn't stand for it and basically told me I had no place in getting involved. If I had hit, or even pushed, him he would have grounds to take me to court. He (scumbag) wasn't even cautioned. Just told to get out of the area.

I'm in between shock and being pissed off about it.

But what law was I breaking here to get a caution? Would they be happier if the little cunt had gotten away with a wad of 20's on her.

eigrod

Joe Duffy might be interested in hearing that story.

seamus

You didn't have permission to detain the kid regardless of what he was doing. By all means stop him and take the money from him, but at that point you would have to release him.

Surely the Garda said something to the kid?

Deesse

I'd be pizzed off too if that happened. Did the woman not open her mouth to the garda???

Is he not permitted to detain him under the powers of citizen's arrest?

No. 14/1997: CRIMINAL LAW ACT, 1997
4.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence.
...
(5) A person who is arrested pursuant to this section by a person other than a member of the Garda Síochána shall be transferred into the custody of the Garda Síochána as soon as practicable.

GerryRyan

seamus wrote: »

You didn't have permission to detain the kid regardless of what he was doing. By all means stop him and take the money from him, but at that point you would have to release him.

Surely the Garda said something to the kid?

Here's the thing thought. Is there not a section of Irish law referring to our rights in making a citizens arrest if we see the need? In the absence of someone who can enforce the law - and where it was witnessed by many - can the person not be held until such a time a Garda appears?

I don't get this - every single day we here or this lad or that lad assaulting or robbing another pedestrian. And while we bitch and moan about it - we can't legally do anything to stop it. I'm not advocating vigilantim (sp?), but what would have been my options here to avoid a caution.

No, he was told to clear off and given the whole 'if I see you around here again etc'. Really, he got away scott-free, no bother to him.

seamus

Deesse wrote: »

I'd be pizzed off too if that happened. Did the woman not open her mouth to the garda???

Is he not permitted to detain him under the powers of citizen's arrest?

Possibly, but I see nothing to indicate that he made a citizen's arrest. A citizen's arrest also doesn't provide the power to detain someone unless the crime carries a penalty of X years in prison (don't remember the number exactly, I always forget).

Theoretically when you make a citizen's arrest for petty crime (which is what this is), the arrestee is supposed to wait with you while a Garda attends the scene. You may not detain them though.

I'm not advocating vigilantim (sp?), but what would have been my options here to avoid a caution.

Make the citizen's arrest. Take a photo of the kid before he scarpers. Go to the Garda station with the woman and as many witnesses as you can find and make a complaint.

GerryRyan

Deesse wrote: »

I'd be pizzed off too if that happened. Did the woman not open her mouth to the garda???

She backed me up, as did the others who were there. But this Garda was pig ignorant in his handling of it.

Ah well, lesson learned, don't get involved.

seamus

ThatGuy wrote: »

Ah well, lesson learned, don't get involved.

I think it depends. The Garda was probably annoyed because whenever the public get involved, the member of the public ultimately ends up taking the wrong course of action and then the scummer and their family go to court against an innocent member of public and extract money despite their acting like complete scum.

Bound to annoy Gardai when the dirt manage to manipulate the legal system to their benefit.

Deesse

Interesting Seamus. Is the arrester not entitled to use reasonable force to detain the scum? He would have the whole Q of customers to testify that he didn't give him a good beating ... now there's an idea!

Dyr

One thing that was said to me with regards to these situations, albeit about a different police force, seems to apply:

"Coppers just want you to be a good little victim, it makes the paperwork easier" :eek:

ian_m

Maybe you didn't do the right thing legally. But you did the right thing morally.

Next time he (scumbag) might think twice about who he is robbing, knowing that there are people who are willing to defend themselves, others and others property.

seamus

Deesse wrote: »

Interesting Seamus. Is the arrester not entitled to use reasonable force to detain the scum? He would have the whole Q of customers to testify that he didn't give him a good beating ... now there's an idea!

Here we go, god bless the archives:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52582511&postcount=16

The offence must be criminal, punishable by 5 or more years in prison. As gabhain says in that above link, most offences committed by children are not criminal therefore you can't detain the child.

Heat of the moment is a tough thing. If someone theoretically was to issue a beating, you're unlikely to get all witness to look the other way and if you're in a public place you may very well be caught on camera. If a child was beaten and damaged he would also have difficulty committing a robbery, so how did he get so badly beaten between committing the robbery and getting caught by you?

Deesse

I know you described him as a "little scummer", but does that mean he was a child ThatGuy? Wonder what is the law reference describing the powers of restraint? The criminal law act (back a few posts before) doesn't actually mention it.

GerryRyan

Deesse wrote: »

I know you described him as a "little scummer", but does that mean he was a child ThatGuy? Wonder what is the law reference describing the powers of restraint? The criminal law act (back a few posts before) doesn't actually mention it.

He was definitely between 18-19, no less than that. I described him as a 'little scummer' as it summed him up fairly accurately.

Deesse

Seems like you did just come across a pig ignorant garda - there are a lot of recently qualified ones on the beat in my area at the moment - and that maybe he just got it wrong.
I'd be very interested if any legal expert knows exactly what your allowed course of action is in a situation like ThatGuy's?

Jumpy

Please try and get this on national coverage if you can OP. It may benefit everyone in the long run.

Turner

You had every right to detain him.

Theft and robbery (if she was in fear) both carry sentences of 5 years or more.

Contact the superintendent.

Bluefox21

yeah thats a disgrace similar thing happened to a friend of mine two scumbags jumped him hit him a few slaps and took an empty phone box he was carrying he came back with the gards pointed them out and the gard said nothing can be done about it?!

You should definatly call liveline:rolleyes:

IT Loser

ThatGuy wrote: »

I'm after receiving a caution from a Garda (yesterday) for stopping some little scummer taking money off a woman at the ATM.

It was obvious enough what he was planning long before it happened. He'd been sitting on the wall nearby for a while eyeing up potential targets.

I went into the closest shop for credit and was coming back out when I say him striding towards this woman keying in her code. She had a buggy with her - bags of shopping at her side etc, so easy target for him.

I reached him just as he put an arm forward to grab the few notes. I didn't strike him or anything, just yanked him back by the hood, took the money back out of his hand and held him by the arm while one of the other lads got a Garda (station was within walking distance).

But when he arrived it was 'me' who got the caution - even after the few people still in the line backing me up.

He wouldn't stand for it and basically told me I had no place in getting involved. If I had hit, or even pushed, him he would have grounds to take me to court. He (scumbag) wasn't even cautioned. Just told to get out of the area.

I'm in between shock and being pissed off about it.

But what law was I breaking here to get a caution? Would they be happier if the little cunt had gotten away with a wad of 20's on her.

Here is my advice.

Forget about the Guards. They suck. Shoulda just smacked him. If it goes before a judge you better believe the Guards would get short shrift.

IT Loser

The plain law is that you are entitled to detain anybody whom you suspect, reasonably so, was in the process of committing an offence or committing an act which, if the police were aware of, they would have made an attempt to stop or truncate.

So the question is, would a Guard be reasonably expected to intervene in the attempted robbery of cash at an ATM.

Gee, let me think about that.:rolleyes:

Trojan911

seamus wrote: »

Possibly, but I see nothing to indicate that he made a citizen's arrest. A citizen's arrest also doesn't provide the power to detain someone unless the crime carries a penalty of X years in prison (don't remember the number exactly, I always forget).

An arrestable offence that carries a prison term of five years or more I beleive.

seamus wrote: »

Theoretically when you make a citizen's arrest for petty crime (which is what this is), the arrestee is supposed to wait with you while a Garda attends the scene. You may not detain them though.

You sure about that? So fighting shoplifters have been unlawfully detained by store security when they are held down because they have attempted to walk/run away?

I beleive the person may be detained using reasonable & justifiable force until the arrival of the Gardai. If I am incorrect, please advise.

IT Loser

Trojan911 wrote: »

An arrestable offence that carries a prison term of five years or more I beleive.



You sure about that? So fighting shoplifters have been unlawfully detained by store security when they are held down because they have attempted to walk/run away?

I beleive the person may be detained using reasonable & justifiable force until the arrival of the Gardai. If I am incorrect, please advise.

Thats what I thought- and I wasn't aware of the minimum sentence requirement either.

Victor

IT Loser wrote: »

Thats what I thought- and I wasn't aware of the minimum sentence requirement either.

Yeah, you need it to stop people making arrests for parking offences (Road Traffic Act) or wearing the uniform of a foreign country (Defence Acts).

seamus

Trojan911 wrote: »

You sure about that? So fighting shoplifters have been unlawfully detained by store security when they are held down because they have attempted to walk/run away?

That depends. Is shoplifting punishable by five years in prison?
You may defend yourself, but I very much doubt that you are allowed to use any force whatsoever to detain someone - as Victor points out, imagine someone carrying out a citizen's arrest for breach of the peace and using force to detain the arrestee. Any force whatsoever would be unreasonable, even if the person was walking away.

Victor

seamus wrote: »

Is shoplifting punishable by five years in prison?

Theft is up to 10 years.

So much for tackling white collar crime.

Trojan911

ThatGuy wrote: »

I reached him just as he put an arm forward to grab the few notes. I didn't strike him or anything, just yanked him back by the hood, took the money back out of his hand and held him by the arm while one of the other lads got a Garda (station was within walking distance).

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Ok, just gone over your entry again. Above you have described a theft. Not an attempted robbery as the victim was not threatened with violence nor assaulted prior to the offence. The act is complete so attempted theft is now also ruled out.

ThatGuy wrote: »

But when he arrived it was 'me' who got the caution - even after the few people still in the line backing me up.
He wouldn't stand for it and basically told me I had no place in getting involved. If I had hit, or even pushed, him he would have grounds to take me to court. He (scumbag) wasn't even cautioned. Just told to get out of the area.

It appears the officer acted incorrectly. Here you have just described a clear cut theft. I would doubt the "Caution" actually was recorded. As far as I am aware you have to be arrested and then admit to the offence to qualify for a caution.

What the officer may have done was to give you words of advice, however with the entry you have posted it would appear you were given a huge "fob off" by the officer in which case I would seek to clarify your "caution" by taking it further and arranging an oppointment to see the Superintendent. That or revisit your Original Post.

What you did was admirable and fair play to you for spotting it in the first place.

Trojan911

seamus wrote: »

You may defend yourself, but I very much doubt that you are allowed to use any force whatsoever to detain someone.

The mere fact that you have detained someone, whether vebally or physically, then force has been used. You have arrested or stopped or detained someone from going about their normal daily business. The OP acted correctly in my opinion. I am going on what the OP typed.

seamus

Trojan911 wrote: »

The OP acted correctly in my opinion. I am going on what the OP typed.

I agree completely. Based on the extra info supplied, this is definitely worth bringing to the attention of the super at the station.

johnnyskeleton

2 sides to every story I suppose. The Op might have, for example, mistakenly thought that the person trying to take the money was a robber when in fact he was the woman's son.

The law as regards assault is that you are entitled to use such force as is reasonable in the cirucmstances to protect yourself, other people, or prevent the commission of a crime. Since robbery involves an element of violence, however small, one could argue that one was protecting the woman and preventing a crime.

You are entitled to prosecute the alleged robber if you like, but bear in mind the garda might have had a good reason not to prosecute.

Electricsail

It doesn't really matter what the ins and outs of the whole situation are, this fu**er was robbing a fellow citizen, and you did your best to prevent it. The Guard was doing the usual thing, avoid the paperwork, don't get involved, what's new.
I agree with the previous, make a formal complaint with the Superintendent, followed up by a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman. I know a similar situation happened a few years ago and the Guard could have been prosecuted under natural justice (whatever that is) for failing to arrest someone who had committed a crime.....
But whatever you do, just remember that at least the woman with the shopping was not out her money
Well done!!!

John2002

seamus wrote: »

Here we go, god bless the archives:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52582511&postcount=16

The offence must be criminal, punishable by 5 or more years in prison.

Where in the law does it say that the offence must be punishable by 5 or more years in prison?

I don't see any mention of it here.