Don't want to go to US? Might not have a choice.

Blitzkrieger

Linky

"AMERICA has told Britain that it can “kidnap” British citizens if they are wanted for crimes in the United States.

A senior lawyer for the American government has told the Court of Appeal in London that kidnapping foreign citizens is permissible under American law because the US Supreme Court has sanctioned it."

Oh - that's okay then........

Zzippy

The mind boggles... how far will they go?

kaimera

"Wanted for crimes"

So what?

MagicMarker

I love NYC, i would happily live there. They can kidnap me all they want.

cornbb

By God, thats f*cked up stuff

The_B_Man

coz its sanctioned by the US Supreme court? eh OK so they would still need it sanctioned on the british side too!!

there was a thing a few years back where bertie agreed with the CIA that they can go into peoples houses in ireland, without garda permission, and interrogate ppl!

humanji

In fairness, if someone is wanted for a crime in the states, they'd just be extradited. This cuts down on the red tape

biko

US law only apply in US. When will they get that? EU law applies over here.

ScumLord

MagicMarker wrote: »

I love NYC, i would happily live there. They can kidnap me all they want.

Somehow I doubt you'd end up in New York sipping Frappachinos.

I guess if Iran did the same to an American citizen they wouldn't have a problem with that.

Saruman

I think this is more for the crime of terrorism, i doubt they would chase down a car thief and kidnap them off British soil.

l3LoWnA

TBH if someone is in a country they should abide by and respect the local law and therefore if they are wanted for a crime they should be kidnapped (or at least forced to go back - no matter where they are) and brought back to the country in which they committed the crime and brought to fkn justice!

Same goes for all the Irish scumbags that flee the country, they should be all rounded up, if they can be found, carted back and sent to prison where they belong.

Of course, just my own personal opinion.

seamus

If this actually became an issue, i.e. if U.S. agents were coming over and removing people by force, the EU wouldn't stand for it (well maybe the bureaurats would, but the citizens wouldn't). It would be an extraordinarily stupid move to remove an EU citizen to the US without applying for extradition.

US law only apply in US. When will they get that? EU law applies over here.

Well, it's just an example of US bull-headedness - "If it's not illegal over here, then it's OK".

cornbb

Saruman wrote: »

I think this is more for the crime of terrorism, i doubt they would chase down a car thief and kidnap them off British soil.

The article mentions people being "rendered" for white-collar crime.

l3LoWnA wrote: »

TBH if someone is in a country they should abide by and respect the local law and therefore if they are wanted for a crime they should be kidnapped (or at least forced to go back - no matter where they are) and brought back to the country in which they committed the crime and brought to fkn justice!

Have you ever heard of a little something called "extradition"? Or something called "law"? Or "due process"?

seamus wrote:

If this actually became an issue, i.e. if U.S. agents were coming over and removing people by force, the EU wouldn't stand for it (well maybe the bureaurats would, but the citizens wouldn't). It would be an extraordinarily stupid move to remove an EU citizen to the US without applying for extradition.

I'm not so sure, can you picture the Irish government having the gonads to stand up to the US authorities if an Irish citizen was snatched off the streets of Dublin, say after extradition had been refused? I don't.

Endasaurus

l3LoWnA wrote: »

TBH if someone is in a country they should abide by and respect the local law and therefore if they are wanted for a crime they should be kidnapped and brought back to the country in which they committed the crime and brought to fkn justice!

It all depends on the country..

What if the country is known to chop people's hands off or deposit them in brutal prisons of the absolute worst kind for minor offences?!

If I was caught or suspected for doing something in some Middle Eastern countries I'd get the hell outta there and be damn sensibile in doing so! :eek:

monkeyfudge

l3LoWnA wrote: »

TBH if someone is in a country they should abide by and respect the local law and therefore if they are wanted for a crime they should be kidnapped (or at least forced to go back - no matter where they are) and brought back to the country in which they committed the crime and brought to fkn justice!

It's a good thing that the US intelligence agencies are completely infallible and would never kidnap the wrong person then, isn't it?

Procasinator

The_B_Man wrote: »

coz its sanctioned by the US Supreme court? eh OK so they would still need it sanctioned on the british side too!!

What this article is saying is that they could kidnap you from anywhere, take you back to the US, and prosecute you. So, in other words, they don't have to go through extradition if they can just snatch ya. Most countries go through complicated extradition procedures (as the US do, too) and hope they win, so they can the country where the offender resides co-operating with them to bring him/her back into the country and prosecute them.

This doesn't mean kidnapping won't be illegal in the country the offender resides in. This has nothing to do, in fact, with the country you reside in.

This is not really news. Just shows how far the US is willing to go to prosecute people. By force if necessary. And a bit of sensationalism to fill in a slow news day.

The real question is whether or not your country will stand up against the US for ya? I recommend not pissing the US off enough for this to happen.

Hobbes

I guess some of you missed it a year or so ago. But a law was passed in Ireland that allows you to be deported to America for a crime committed in America even if you have never set foot in that country. The only exception is that you should get a fair trial as you would in Ireland.

The US government bodies (Police, CIA, FBI, etc) are also allowed question you in Ireland, as long as a Garda is present in the room.

No one seems to kick a fuss up then.

l3LoWnA

Have you ever heard of a little something called "extradition"? Or something called "law"? Or "due process"?

Of course....I'm just saying, in my ideal world, everybody would pay for crimes they commit (beaking the "law" in a country) no matter where they're placed in the world. It's just ridiculous that scumbags can get away with crap just by jumping on a cheap flight to the costa del sol.

togster

America sucks arse.

Kintarō Hattori

l3LoWnA wrote: »

TBH if someone is in a country they should abide by and respect the local law and therefore if they are wanted for a crime they should be kidnapped (or at least forced to go back - no matter where they are) and brought back to the country in which they committed the crime and brought to fkn justice!

I can see what your saying but the fact is that people don't always get things right. They can suspect someone, take them away for interrogation etc, but it has been known to happen that they take away an innocent person. Mistakes can be made. Is it justifiable in that case?

togster

l3LoWnA wrote: »

Of course....I'm just saying, in my ideal world, everybody would pay for crimes they commit (beaking the "law" in a country) no matter where they're placed in the world. It's just ridiculous that scumbags can get away with crap just by jumping on a cheap flight to the costa del sol.

So you agree with this then? We have extradition ya know

ferdi

seamus wrote: »

If this actually became an issue, i.e. if U.S. agents were coming over and removing people by force, the EU wouldn't stand for it (well maybe the bureaurats would, but the citizens wouldn't)

if they were white 'native' EU citizens, then yes...but if it was EU citizens from the arab immigrant community, i'm not too sure how fast we'd take to the streets tbh.

seamus

cornbb wrote: »

I'm not so sure, can you picture the Irish government having the gonads to stand up to the US authorities if an Irish citizen was snatched off the streets of Dublin, say after extradition had been refused? I don't.

We're a peculiar country. I think it would depend on the crime. If someone was brought back to the US for parking ticket offences and jailed for three years, then I think the issue wouldn't drop - the government would be under serious pressure from the public. If someone was brought back for rape or violent crime, then there would be some outcry, but it would fizzle out after a while.
I think that Bertie & co would sooner resign than stand up to the US.

Other countries however, such as the UK and France, wouldn't stand for it and public pressure would quickly cause the governments to start becoming unstable and the EU would *have* to step in. The French would probably riot.

Sam Vimes

biko wrote: »

US law only apply in US. When will they get that? EU law applies over here.

didn't you get the memo, if america passes a law it applies worldwide because they're number 1

Procasinator

seamus wrote: »

The French would probably riot.

They would, but they wouldn't go to war.

I would doubt myself on Ireland kicking much of a fuss over someone being taken back to US unless the public were on their side.

At the end of day, we have very little in the way of weight to throw around in Ireland. UK, China, etc are different stories, and I would say the US is very cautious with yanking people out of these Countries against the governments awareness.

I think this is a non-issue in Ireland: we are more likely to be handed over by the government here before the need for kidnapping arises.

l3LoWnA

I can see what your saying

Thank you, at least someone can!

but the fact is that people don't always get things right. They can suspect someone, take them away for interrogation etc, but it has been known to happen that they take away an innocent person. Mistakes can be made. Is it justifiable in that case?

Probably not but you know where I'm coming from. If they could be 100% sure they were arresting or "kidnapping" the right person it would be flipping great I know they'll never get it right and not every (probably a very small percentage of) criminal ever has to pay for their crimes but it would be mighty if they did, no matter where they committed it. Not least, the likes of sex-offenders/stalkers etc.

cornbb

Procasinator wrote: »

They would, but they wouldn't go to war.

I would doubt myself on Ireland kicking much of a fuss over someone being taken back to US unless the public were on their side.

At the end of day, we have very little in the way of weight to throw around in Ireland. UK, China, etc are different stories, and I would say the US is very cautious with yanking people out of these Countries against the governments awareness.

I think this is a non-issue in Ireland: we are more likely to be handed over by the government here before the need for kidnapping arises.

I mostly agree with you, but I think it is an issue here in that it is disturbing to think that someone could be plucked out of a relative human rights comfort zone (e.g. Ireland) without the right to a fair extradition trial or due process.

l3LoWnA

togster wrote: »

So you agree with this then? We have extradition ya know

Oh I know but it takes so long and anyways, kidnapping is far more exciting

togster

l3LoWnA wrote: »

Oh I know but it takes so long and anyways, kidnapping is far more exciting

Especially for the person being kidnapped. Great buzz:rolleyes:

leninbenjamin

it'll be something stupid like this that will end up starting world war 3.

Jaysus... this is good an argument as any that Americans are a bunch of ignorant f*cks.

Terry

l3LoWnA wrote: »

Of course....I'm just saying, in my ideal world, everybody would pay for crimes they commit (beaking the "law" in a country) no matter where they're placed in the world. It's just ridiculous that scumbags can get away with crap just by jumping on a cheap flight to the costa del sol.

You have admitted to breaking U.S. law.
You didn't break the law in America, but you did break American law. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54516016&postcount=108
Would you be ok with the FBI coming over here and arresting you for it?
Sorry. Kidnapping you.

biko

Rendition, or kidnapping, dates back to 19th-century bounty hunting and Washington believes it is still legitimate.

****ing cowboys.

l3LoWnA

togster wrote: »

Especially for the person being kidnapped. Great buzz:rolleyes:

Jail is so exciting for criminals too......such a buzz :rolleyes: but criminals don't deserve a great buzz - let me enjoy this exciting news will you. Stay in ireland or at least, abide the law if you don't want to be kidnapped and enjoy watching it happen to others

l3LoWnA

Terry wrote: »

You have admitted to breaking U.S. law.
You didn't break the law in America, but you did break American law. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54516016&postcount=108
Would you be ok with the FBI coming over here and arresting you for it?
Sorry. Kidnapping you.

I've typed on a message board stating that I broke US law - doesn't make it truth now Terry does it, sure I've a great imagination :rolleyes: I could be a thousand different people hiding behind this computer screen and god knows, the FBI haven't seen me breaking the law, have no reason to question me breaking the law in Ireland, nor have I ever set foot in their fine land, so I'm ok - but thanks for pointing that out to me!

Do you seriously think they'd bother going to those lengths to arrest someone for a petty crime or drug-taking/traffic offence etc., it's only going to involved serious crime I'm sure! And it's great! I wouldn't mind them arresting me by mistake and making my life hell for a few months if it meant I was only one mistake in a hundred and I could prove my innocence (and get some sort of compensation of course). If it meant 99 true scumbags were brought to justice that is.

humbert

Terry wrote: »

You have admitted to breaking U.S. law.
You didn't break the law in America, but you did break American law. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54516016&postcount=108
Would you be ok with the FBI coming over here and arresting you for it?
Sorry. Kidnapping you.

I'm reasonably sure it's not against U.S. law to take drugs in another country. I'd say that aspect might come into play if you hacked some U.S. company, then they come for you in the night!

Terry

l3LoWnA wrote: »

I've typed on a message board stating that I broke US law - doesn't make it truth now Terry does it, sure I've a great imagination :rolleyes: I could be a thousand different people hiding behind this computer screen and god knows, the FBI haven't seen me breaking the law, have no reason to question me breaking the law in Ireland, nor have I ever set foot in their fine land, so I'm ok - but thanks for pointing that out to me!

Do you seriously think they'd bother going to those lengths to arrest someone for a petty crime or drug-taking/traffic offence etc., it's only going to involved serious crime I'm sure! And it's great! I wouldn't mind them arresting me by mistake and making my life hell for a few months if it meant I was only one mistake in a hundred and I could prove my innocence (and get some sort of compensation of course). If it meant 99 true scumbags were brought to justice that is.

Oh. So you're ok with it as long as it only involves the breaking of certain laws and you get some compo if you're wrongly accused.
That's fair enough then.

Terry

humbert wrote: »

I'm reasonably sure it's not against U.S. law to take drugs in another country. I'd say that aspect might come into play if you hacked some U.S. company, then they come for you in the night!

I'm 100% sure it's not against U.S. law to break any law in another country.
Doesn't stop extraordinary rendition though, does it?
Or this new law, for that matter.

cornbb

humbert wrote: »

I'm reasonably sure it's not against U.S. law to take drugs in another country. I'd say that aspect might come into play if you hacked some U.S. company, then they come for you in the night!

I'm not so sure. Whether or not its the law, Howard Marks was put into a US penitentiary by the DEA for a drug deal that had nothing to do with the US.

homah_7ft

What if you wanted to post on a message board your disapproval of America for any reason? That is where the slippery slope begins.

l3LoWnA

Terry wrote: »

Oh. So you're ok with it as long as it only involves the breaking of certain laws and you get some compo if you're wrongly accused.
That's fair enough then.

yep

l3LoWnA

cornbb wrote: »

I'm not so sure. Whether or not its the law, Howard Marks was put into a US penitentiary by the DEA for a drug deal that had nothing to do with the US.

So now I'm being compared to Mr. Nice :rolleyes:

Jesus, I'm not that bad!!!

rmacm

kaimera wrote: »

"Wanted for crimes"

So what?

Ah perhaps as many people on the thread have pointed out people are entitled to due process and there are already extradition agreements in place. Kidnapping by a US intelligence agency potentially removes a persons right to due process and essentially makes long standing extradition agreements useless.

Try reversing the situation would you be happy as a US citizen if the EU said to hell with your rights as an American if we suspect you of a crime we'll by pass the extradition agreement we have with the US and just snatch you off the street and ship you to Europe.

Procasinator

cornbb wrote: »

I mostly agree with you, but I think it is an issue here in that it is disturbing to think that someone could be plucked out of a relative human rights comfort zone (e.g. Ireland) without the right to a fair extradition trial or due process.

So do I. They will probably be put under pressure now from many countries to amend their bounty law.

However, if the US wants to do this, at the end of the day, they have the power. It just a fact of life that super-nations will do what they want, and beyond world war, there isn't a whole lot that can be done.

I remember an author was on The Panel discussing his book about a torture plane that went via Shannon. The US (specifically the CIA) would kidnap and fly a citzen out the country where they would torture to them to get the needed information. I can't remember the name of the book, but a quick google search brings up plenty of related articles/blogs.

If they can (reportedly) do something like that, they could be capable of anything. And any country with real power could get away with treating other people (and even their own citizens) however they want.

togster

l3LoWnA wrote: »

Jail is so exciting for criminals too......such a buzz :rolleyes: but criminals don't deserve a great buzz - let me enjoy this exciting news will you. Stay in ireland or at least, abide the law if you don't want to be kidnapped and enjoy watching it happen to others

Are you on drugs at the moment?

l3LoWnA

togster wrote: »

Are you on drugs at the moment?

I'm sorry.

Of course.

I'm a junkie.

I shouldn't be joining into this extremely intelligent conversation about this new American law and I certainly shouldn't be giving my (different - how dare I) opinion - my bad :rolleyes:

Stercus Accidit

l3LoWnA wrote: »

I'm sorry.
I shouldn't be joining into this extremely intelligent conversation about this new American law

qft

Terry

l3LoWnA wrote: »

I'm sorry.

Of course.

I'm a junkie.

I shouldn't be joining into this extremely intelligent conversation about this new American law and I certainly shouldn't be giving my (different - how dare I) opinion - my bad :rolleyes:

Sarcasm aside, you are entitled to your opinion.
It's just that you are contradicting yourself.

You give out about scumbags, yet some would call you a scumbag for doing cocaine (note. I am not calling you a scumbag. I have admitted to doing the same drug myself).

You say that it's ok for these scumbags to be kidnapped from Ireland, but where do you draw the line on what is scumbag behaviour and what is (i'm laughing at this now) socially acceptable law breaking?

Stercus Accidit

One last thing,

if this is ok for certain crimes, outrageous ones, rape etc....

What if Sudan decided you insulted islam, kidnapped you and brought you back there to be flogged, sound ridiculous?

Its sounds ridiculous because Sudanese law does not apply over here, nor does US law.
Basically is it up to a government you did not vote for in a country you are not a citizen of to decide if you have commited a crime or not?

If so let the laws of your own country decide what should become of you, extradition laws.

l3LoWnA

Terry wrote: »

You give out about scumbags, yet some would call you a scumbag for doing cocaine (note. I am not calling you a scumbag. I have admitted to doing the same drug myself).

I am not contradicting myself. If I took drugs in america, I would be prepared to face the consequences. Scumbags (ie. in my opinion, murderers, rapists, alot of drug dealers, people who break the law and/or hurt or damage or end someone elses life!) should be brought to justice.

l3LoWnA

Motosam wrote: »

What if Sudan decided you insulted islam, kidnapped you and brought you back there to be flogged, sound ridiculous?

Its sounds ridiculous because Sudanese law does not apply over here, nor does US law.
Basically is it up to a government you did not vote for in a country you are not a citizen of to decide if you have commited a crime or not?

You shoudl not travel to another country without

a) Knowing their laws or at least havign a vague understanding of same

ad

b) respecting their laws

togster

l3LoWnA wrote: »

I am not contradicting myself. .

Eh look back over your posts full of contradiction.