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Should Teflon Bertie go or cling on to power .

  • 01-12-2007 5:32pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭


    I think Bertie should go ,resign as Taoiseach forthwith .His credibility has gone in view of his payrise ,leaks from the Mahon tribunal and other suspected murky dealings that have been alluded to in the papers .He is now going to suppress the cancer diagnosis report indefinitely.He is just not able to cut it anymore . The country needs a strong leader and not someone who many people perceive as a liar and shady ,more interested in money ,yachts and the like .A new leader of the FF party is needed and a new Taoiseach . We deserve better.


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭Jimbo


    I think the papers try to blow things out of proportion and rile people up. I dont think he's been a bad taoiseach and hes been a great leader of FF. BTW, are you a FF follower?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    jimbo78 wrote: »
    I think the papers try to blow things out of proportion and rile people up. I dont think he's been a bad taoiseach and hes been a great leader of FF. BTW, are you a FF follower?

    No not FF but I think that for the good of the country he should go ,before there are even more revelations about his past dealings .His mind is not on the job and time he went.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,559 ✭✭✭Tipsy Mac


    Why should he go, he's in an unsackable job and 41.6% of people thought they were doing a good job, the rest of us didn't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Tipsy Mac wrote: »
    Why should he go, he's in an unsackable job and 41.6% of people thought they were doing a good job, the rest of us didn't.

    He evaded the Mahon tribunal before the election promising he would tell all after ,then did everything to avoid going .If the electorate had known more at the time of the election would Bertie still be Taoiseach?Only last week many people in a red C poll said they were misled by FF and Ahern on the economy.So why should we have someone in charge who has no credibility and out of touch .FF can do better.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,885 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    .He is now going to suppress the cancer diagnosis report indefinitely.

    What? is there a link to that?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Way past time for him to go, he's so out of touch .
    Now that he's being caught out in so many lies a quote from CJH springs to mind
    " the most devious of them all "


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Akrasia wrote: »
    What? is there a link to that?

    no ,but it was mentioned in one of the papers yesterday The Irish Mail that any report will have to have legal clearance( whatever that means ) so it could be long time before we see a report and then how edited will it be following this legal clearance( does that really mean damage limitation) for the HSE and the Government .A disgrace .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭Rock Climber


    Mr micro.
    I'm not convinced that you are unaware of this forum's policy on liar accusations.
    I'm giving you a 1 week ban to familiarise yourself with it.

    The next poster that comes anywhere near flirting with breaking our policy on this will be getting a 1 month ban.

    Final warning.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,692 ✭✭✭✭OPENROAD


    Might be wrong, please correct me if I am, but Irish TDs do not resign.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭pjproby


    as p j mara mara once said

    uno Duce, una Voce


    or translated

    its time to abandon the politics thread

    i have

    or as Ronan Keating once sang


    you say it best
    when you say nothing at all


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Jay D


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    I think Bertie should go ,resign as Taoiseach forthwith .His credibility has gone in view of his payrise ,leaks from the Mahon tribunal and other suspected murky dealings that have been alluded to in the papers .He is now going to suppress the cancer diagnosis report indefinitely.He is just not able to cut it anymore . The country needs a strong leader and not someone who many people perceive as a liar and shady ,more interested in money ,yachts and the like .A new leader of the FF party is needed and a new Taoiseach . We deserve better.
    A completely new sysytem needs to be put in place. That payrise is the most blatant shambles.

    Then he has the cheek to warn others on being content about their wages in order for the economy etc etc......

    It's a complete disregard for people, when those that are dying on trolleys are left while Mr Pig stuffs his pockets.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    Obviously nothing has been proved categorically about his finances etc but there is enough muck flying around to ensure that, surely, a lot of the voters now mistrust him and as a result he should resign, however no chance of that.

    It shows the level of FF arrogance that a man with so many questions unanswered was allowed lead his party in a general election and it also shows the stupidity and priorities of the Irish electorate that his party was re-elected and FF ratings rose every time another allegation hit the press.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    The main player in this is Brian Cowen, he might be getting a little worried about the legacy Ahern will be handing on. I imagine he might fancy a word in Berties 'shell-like'.

    Mike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,053 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Why should he go? I voted for a change of government last time as I was and am sick to death of FF's arrogance in power but Ahern & Co. persuaded enough (not most) of us to give them power for another term. We have nobody to blame for being ruled by Bertie Ahern & Co. but ourselves. We now have to wait for another election because FF/Green/PD do not have the collective decency to vote against Ahern in a motion of confidence. So long as FF&Co. support him he stays until he decides or the next election. If the minority parties withdrew support we could have another election but would the outcome be any different?

    Of course, in 5 years time our short memoried electorate will have forgotten all about this and whatever SSIA type scheme to buy the election will be coming to fruition and most people won't have time to vote as they'll be buying their latest plasma, lcd, holographic television.

    Nobody to blame but ourselves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    murphaph wrote: »
    Why should he go? I voted for a change of government last time as I was and am sick to death of FF's arrogance in power but Ahern & Co. persuaded enough (not most) of us to give them power for another term. We have nobody to blame for being ruled by Bertie Ahern & Co. but ourselves. We now have to wait for another election because FF/Green/PD do not have the collective decency to vote against Ahern in a motion of confidence. So long as FF&Co. support him he stays until he decides or the next election. If the minority parties withdrew support we could have another election but would the outcome be any different?

    Of course, in 5 years time our short memoried electorate will have forgotten all about this and whatever SSIA type scheme to buy the election will be coming to fruition and most people won't have time to vote as they'll be buying their latest plasma, lcd, holographic television.

    Nobody to blame but ourselves.
    I with this guy ^^^^^
    Anyone who only now is outraged and demanding his resignation needs to take a look at themselves. Our glorious leader has been <insert forum rules compliant word here> for nearly as long as he has been in office, going back to his CJH days. Our government has a record of not being accountable and we know that the only way to get rid of Bertie / FF is to actually vote them out of power.

    I put the blame squarely on the people. The people of this country obviously want unaccountable leaders, a bluffed false economy which puts us all in debt and lines the pockets of those big players in construction and property related fields on the back of every one else’s debt. Having said that no one put a gun to peoples head and forced them to queue up in their thousands to buy massively over priced shoe boxes off the plans so again a sheep like and uninterested public has to take much of the blame.

    At this stage I have gone far beyond anger and out rage, I am now at the surreal and amused stage, both at Bertie and at those who elected him. I said it before and I'll say it again, I hope Bertie rules us for another 20 years and he gets massive pay raises every one of those 20 years. I hope FF privatises everything from hospitals to footpaths. When our blinding Celtic tiger is exposed as nothing more than personal debt without genuine economic sustainability and the dole queues start multiplying I won’t be blaming bertie, I'll be blaming the people who accepted it by accepting and promoting through the ballot box and through apathy.

    Our political system and our leaders read like a comedy sketch and we the people are its main script writers.

    we have the government we deserve.

    / hail emperor Bertie.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭Rock Climber


    Right.
    I've deleted 3 off topic posts on moderation.

    Any further discussion of moderation in this thread or elsewhere on the forum will get the poster banned.

    Final warning on that score.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,634 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Should Teflon Bertie go or cling on to power?

    The people should have kicked him in the goolies a long time ago but failing that, he should do the honourable thing and......
































    .... embezzle some money


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 429 ✭✭gbh


    murphaph wrote: »
    Why should he go? I voted for a change of government last time as I was and am sick to death of FF's arrogance in power but Ahern & Co. persuaded enough (not most) of us to give them power for another term. We have nobody to blame for being ruled by Bertie Ahern & Co. but ourselves. We now have to wait for another election because FF/Green/PD do not have the collective decency to vote against Ahern in a motion of confidence. So long as FF&Co. support him he stays until he decides or the next election. If the minority parties withdrew support we could have another election but would the outcome be any different?

    Of course, in 5 years time our short memoried electorate will have forgotten all about this and whatever SSIA type scheme to buy the election will be coming to fruition and most people won't have time to vote as they'll be buying their latest plasma, lcd, holographic television.

    Nobody to blame but ourselves.


    Nobody but ourselves...and Eoin Harris...who still thinks the sun shines out of Berties behind....and lead many astray with his last minute interventions, but got nothing in return, well not if you don't count the cushy number in the Seanad.

    He should go but he will cling onto power...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭LostinBlanch


    Blame ourselves???

    Only if "we" voted FF in. Given the mind boggling amounts of money wasted on everything from make up for our dear leader, to electronic voting, to PPARS, to huge overruns on projects like The Luas and Port Tunnel in Dublin, to the fact that there is no 2nd terminal at Dublin airport. The Eircom selloff fiasco (remember that? It's the reason you don't have proper broadband and at a decent price compared to other EU countries); and I'm not even going anywhere near the shambles that masquerades as a health service. The fact is that over the last 10 years a great opportunity, the greatest we have had since the foundation of the state, has been wasted.

    You vote FF in, you have no right to complain, if you get more of the same.

    Back to the original question, it depends on whether you take the view of party 1st and country 2nd as I suspect a lot of FFrs do; or country 1st, party 2nd.

    IMO Bertie will only go when FFrs feel that he is damaging the party too much. Whether he is pushed or jumps a microsecond before he is pushed is a moot point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭ballooba


    The 40% or so of the population who voted for Fianna Fail do not care about this country. They only care about Fianna Fail. What I find strange is that they don't mind that Bertie and Albert are accused of stealing money from the party. This (perhaps indirectly) is money that these people have raised through their various collections and draws. Why do they see Bertie as more important than the party?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭LostinBlanch


    ballooba wrote: »
    The 40% or so of the population who voted for Fianna Fail do not care about this country. They only care about Fianna Fail.

    Ballooba, it's a bit harsh labelling all the people who voted FF as not caring about the country over the party. It’s the core vote that I think tend to do this more. I’m not sure why, perhaps it is because they tend to conflate FF with the country and genuinely believe that what’s good for the party is good for the country. Or perhaps they are following on from Dev and looking into their own hearts to determine what’s good for all of us. I’m sure there’s a whole other thread in this. Either way I'd be genuinely interested in hearing the FF supporters view on this.
    ballooba wrote: »
    What I find strange is that they don't mind that Bertie and Albert are accused of stealing money from the party.

    Could be a hangover from CJH years. Mind you hasn’t Eoin Ryan come out in the mail this morning asking for an investigation into this?
    ballooba wrote: »
    Why do they see Bertie as more important than the party?

    I’m not sure they do. He has been their most marketable asset to date, but when the cost to the party of keeping him in power becomes too much, he’ll be out on his ear.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭Rock Climber


    Look at it this way.
    Theres a core FG vote too.
    If it's only 10% (and anecdotly I suspect it's closer to 20%)then without it,FG's chances of changing this government are poor.

    Dont, try to tell me there isn't.
    I know people who vote FG just like their grand parents.
    They still vote for them even when they don't like labour.
    They are old style FG conservatives.

    pot calling the kettle black ass to be honest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭ballooba


    Ballooba, it's a bit harsh labelling all the people who voted FF as not caring about the country over the party. It’s the core vote that I think tend to do this more. I’m not sure why, perhaps it is because they tend to conflate FF with the country and genuinely believe that what’s good for the party is good for the country. Or perhaps they are following on from Dev and looking into their own hearts to determine what’s good for all of us. I’m sure there’s a whole other thread in this. Either way I'd be genuinely interested in hearing the FF supporters view on this.
    The people who voted for Fianna Fail knew the score before the election.
    Could be a hangover from CJH years. Mind you hasn’t Eoin Ryan come out in the mail this morning asking for an investigation into this?
    I don't get the mail until lunchtime. I look forward to reading Ryan's comments. The core Fianna Fail support believe that CJHs crimes were outweighed by any good he achieved.
    I’m not sure they do. He has been their most marketable asset to date, but when the cost to the party of keeping him in power becomes too much, he’ll be out on his ear.
    Bertie's position has become increasingly untenable over the last number of months. He looked like damaged goods before the election. Now only 32% of the population believe him according to Red C. The Fianna Fail TDs who are continuing to support him in the face of increasingly implaussible explanations for his affairs are complicit in any crimes he has committed, if any, in my view.
    pot calling the kettle black ass to be honest.
    I'm not Fine Gael core support. Even if I was, Fine Gael would not put people like Michael Lowry ahead of the interests of the party or country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭Rock Climber


    ballooba wrote: »
    I'm not Fine Gael core support. Even if I was, Fine Gael would not put people like Michael Lowry ahead of the interests of the party or country.
    I'm not saying you are.
    How could I possibly know that anyway.

    I'm saying 10-20% of FG vote is as core as the FF core vote.
    They'd vote FG if the party had an alliance with the moonies probably.

    LoL..you think FG wouldn't do a deal with independents regardless of the impact nationally state finances wise?

    Think back on how long it took Kenny to stop expecting to be Taoiseach last june after the results were known.
    He lingered the possibility for ages and he would have needed all the independents , lowry and even the pd's...

    So think again because what you said seems like it's a rose tinted glasses view point that doesn't stand up to the facts,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭ballooba


    Your pot kettle black comment would suggest otherwise.

    I wouldn't have a problem accepting Lowry's (or Bevs) support to form a government. A minority of corrupt members is unfortunately better than a majority who support corruption. I would not support Fine Gael if there were any suggestion of people pocketing party funds or accepting bribes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭Rock Climber


    The pot kettle remark was pointing out that your party suffers the same problems voter constituent wise as FF ie sheep that vote like their family before did..(of course you knew this didn't you)
    I would not support Fine Gael if there was any suggestion of people pocketing party funds or accepting bribes..
    laudable.
    As you know theres an ongoing process examining allegations like these.
    Lets have a little modicum of respect for that process,fair trial and all that and keep the discussion of that here within said respect and within the mahon sticky thread.I couldn't care less what you say off the site on these matters :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭ballooba


    What's the basis of the thread if not that investigation which dare not mention it's name? And actually the J2 list is not being investigated by that body. It seems items on the J2 list currently being discussed in the papers and elsewhere will never be investigated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 429 ✭✭gbh


    The pot kettle remark was pointing out that your party suffers the same problems voter constituent wise as FF ie sheep that vote like their family before did..(of course you knew this didn't you)

    At the risk of going off topic...
    What elected Fianna Fail was not their core vote and I agree that all parties have a core vote who will vote for their party come what may, although the Fianna Fail core vote is probably more intransigent than any other party, and the other parties need to learn also to develop a similar core vote. FF appease their core vote, sometimes in less than subtle ways, very well though.

    But you can't get into government in most countries without winning the floating vote or getting enough of the floating vote. The floating vote went with FF this time because these people were persuaded by the media but also by FF bluff that FF were better than the opposition. That and having done a secret deal with the Sindo helped them get back in. It wasn't because of competance.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Secret deals ,the Sindo?
    Lol to be honest-if some of the headlines and rubbish read in that paper constitutes stuff helpfull to FF,then I don't know the definition of harmfull.
    If the media includes the Irish Times and the Daily mail then I don't think it was persuading people to Vote FF that they were up to...

    I think the point is...lose the core vote and the floating vote isn't much use to you.
    It's all about the numbers.


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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,832 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gbh wrote: »
    ...the Fianna Fail core vote is probably more intransigent than any other party, and the other parties need to learn also to develop a similar core vote.
    Something about this idea grates nastily with me. Basically, it seems to come down to a perceived need to fight gobshitery with gobshitery.

    I've made it clear that I wanted to see FF ousted at the last election, for no more profound reason than that they've become too comfortable and arrogant in power, and need a (preferably extended) spell in opposition to learn a little humility. Part of the arrogance problem stems from the very "core vote" concept - the people who would vote for a donkey if it ran under an FF banner.

    Do we really want an alternative government with an equal sense of arrogance and entitlement?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Do we really want an alternative government with an equal sense of arrogance and entitlement?

    I completely agree. They should be afraid of us...and loosing our vote based on their track record on policy. No one should assume they will get a vote just based on their party affiliation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 429 ✭✭gbh


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Something about this idea grates nastily with me. Basically, it seems to come down to a perceived need to fight gobshitery with gobshitery.

    Do we really want an alternative government with an equal sense of arrogance and entitlement?

    Elections are unfortunately a competition and you have to pull out all the stops. Cultivating a core vote doesnt nessecarily need to degenerate to gobshitery. But i don't see why workering class people shouldn't vote left wing, etc, people opposed to FF vote for other parties, instead of not voting at all.

    We all know the FF voters in our community, they make no bones about it nor afraid to show it. And we all know the pull the same voters have and how they can get things done for them when they pick up the phone, etc. That is never going to go away, you aren't going to end that overnight...but of course if another party acted this way FF would label them with every name under the sun...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 429 ✭✭gbh


    Tristrame wrote: »
    Secret deals ,the Sindo?
    Lol to be honest-if some of the headlines and rubbish read in that paper constitutes stuff helpfull to FF,then I don't know the definition of harmfull.
    If the media includes the Irish Times and the Daily mail then I don't think it was persuading people to Vote FF that they were up to...

    I think the point is...lose the core vote and the floating vote isn't much use to you.
    It's all about the numbers.

    It's not in dispute that the Sindo and Tony O'Reilly hold a major and influential share of the media market in Ireland...The Sindo is his propaganda paper...that's fairly clear and what's clear also is its bias towards FF in recent years. Of two of its regular writers, Willie O'Dea is FF and Eoin Harris is pseudo-FF as opposed to no other political party contributor.

    It's not in dispute either that a secret deal was done between O'Railly and FF before the election.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    In answer to the original question, yes in any other democracy someone who is as potentially tainted would have had the good sense and honour to step down a long time ago. I think one of the journalists in an article I read recently put it very well, Bertie is being undone by the "death of 1000 cuts". The more situations that come out like the one in the past week of "he's my friend" "No I'm not" ilk are making Berties position look ridiculous at this stage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 838 ✭✭✭purple'n'gold


    Bertie is suffering from the same complaint that all politicians who have been in situ too long suffer from. (Except his is an extreme example) He thinks he is infallible. In his mind we are very lucky to have him as our leader and he finds it incomprehensible that anyone should question his bone fides. He cannot imagine himself as anything else except taoiseach. He lost the run of himself a long time ago; he actually thinks that he is an important leader on the world stage. Just look at his attitude to his recent huge pay rise, and they way he is dismissive of our health crisis. If he ever had a humble bone in his body, (which I doubt) it disappeared a long time ago. Yes he should go, ASAP.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    ballooba wrote: »
    The people who voted for Fianna Fail knew the score before the election.

    Well, I disagree to a certain extent.
    I think some knew, and liked the way life was going for them, but I think most voters actually believed they (FF) were the engine of Irish success.
    Actually it was quite a bit after the election that bedgudgers came out and started damaging the economy with their defeatist talk. This was purported to be the source of all our problems.
    Now, one of the biggest get out of jail free cards is the credit crunch / interest rates thing, ah, sure be janey, 'tis nothin dat FF dun!

    If he was honest I think he would step down. But, well, he's not steppin down, is he?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,739 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Bertie is suffering from the same complaint that all politicians who have been in situ too long suffer from. Just look at his attitude to his recent huge pay rise, and they way he is dismissive of our health crisis. If he ever had a humble bone in his body, (which I doubt) it disappeared a long time ago. Yes he should go, ASAP.

    Bar the 2 (and a bit) years that Fine Gael were in government, Fianna Fail have been in government for the last 20 years, and if this current government lasts it will have been 25 years. It's no wonder that they (and Bertie in particular) have gotten to be so arrogant.

    What's surprising to me is Bertie's two-fingered attitude since the general election. Starting with that bitter interview he did on the night of the election, and continuing with a) the pay rise and b) his atrocious defence of it, it seems he really couldn't give a damn what anyone thinks. I presume that this is because he won't be running at the next general election. However, if he continues with this attitude, he will damage FF and so they will move to "fast-track" his retirement.

    A pay rise that's greater than the average industrial wage really nails the "man of the people" myth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 429 ✭✭gbh


    I agree with the two fingeredness...

    Particularly...where he accepts a 38,000 pay increase and calls it tokenism...yet trys to pressure people on less than 38,000 a year not to look for significant increases...its just beyond belief how he dealt with the issue, a real kick in the teeth to ordinary working people, but thats FF politicians for ya...The "I'm alright Jack, the rest of yee can get by best as you can" attitude...To be honest I don't really think FF care about anything other than power, power, power, they certainly don't care about ordinary people struggling at the lower end and hoping they don't end up in our 3rd world health system along the way...

    Secondly, the "political implications" as Noel O'Flynn has rightly described it of his recent Mahon Tribunal testimony is important and vital to giving a true assessment of his charachter and not the Sindo/Eoin Harris guff that comes to his rescue every so often...of course FF want us all not to focus on it and laugh it off as a dig out...


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,832 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gbh banned for a month, and offending material edited out.

    I'm going zero-tolerance on this issue from here out. Anyone who posts prejudicial remarks about matters being investigated by the Mahon Tribunal will be banned.

    Final warning.


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