[Heritage] Would Vintage trams fit on the Luas line?

Run_to_da_hills

Im curious to know would any of the restored vintage Dublin trams fit on the luas line. Im sure that they might have problems with track gauge, height clearance and voltage differences for the overhead wires. It would be nice to see some restored stock trumbeling across a section of it in the city. Many city still have preserved old stock in use, ie Melbourne, Seattle, San Fransisco, Doughlas in the Isle of Man. etc Blackpool is notable today as one of the three surviving non-heritage tramways to use double-deck trams, the others being Hong Kong and Alexandria, Egypt, Dublin could be another.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_asset.do?asset_id=686

Ham'nd'egger

Nope sadly it wouldn't be possible, though they could run on the railways here; well, pushed along the railways.

Trams here were built to 5' 3" (1600mm), the standard gauge of Irish railways. Luas is built to the international standard gauge of 4' 8 1/2" (1435mm). For the most part, the old trams ran using 500V; Luas uses 750V. DART runs on 1500V.

Ste.phen

apart from needing re-gauging, would the voltage really be an issue if a suitable way of getting it to the old tram were found?

Obviously the re-gauging probably throws the entire idea flat on its face

The Chessplayer

Igy wrote: »

apart from needing re-gauging, would the voltage really be an issue if a suitable way of getting it to the old tram were found?

Obviously the re-gauging probably throws the entire idea flat on its face

Why not adjust the old trams to meet these modern specifications of gauging and voltage? Surely this would be possible. Would be a great addition to the city.

Cionnfhaolaidh

Isle of Man have trams?:eek:

corktina

IoM is a haven for old transport...they have electirc trams on 3' gauge running east from Douglas....steam trains on the same guage running west, electric rack tram cars up Moiunt Snaefell on 3'6" guage AND horse trams on DOuglas Prom...they ALSO have 2 foot guage Groudell Glen railway which connects with the elctric trams . Fabulous place for anoraks like me

PS the stean railway has two Co Donegal Rialway diesle railcars and an engine identiacla to the IoM 2-4-0's ran in Antirm long ago....

Apparantly the IoM tram system runs on DC, the DC is converted from AC by the worlds oldest diode! must find a link!

edit found it

http://www.cable-car-guy.com/html/cciomelectric.html

Still in use today, the company constructed at Laxey (in 1935) a substation to convert the Island’s power from AC into DC current. This facility features mercury-arc-rectifiers that transform the current. They resemble -- with their protruding wires, bubbling mercury producing a bluish glow in large light bulb-shaped vats arid wooden fans to cool the mercury -- something out of an old science fiction movie featuring the mad scientist’s laboratory.

Ham'nd'egger

Igy wrote: »

apart from needing re-gauging, would the voltage really be an issue if a suitable way of getting it to the old tram were found?

Obviously the re-gauging probably throws the entire idea flat on its face

It would be probably be an easy thing to do convert the trams to modern current. Thing is, there is fook all of the old trams left to use, obviously the gauge issue stops it. It would be as easy to build replicas of the old trams; would people pay to travel on them, though?

Run_to_da_hills

Hamndegger wrote: »

It would be probably be an easy thing to do convert the trams to modern current. Thing is, there is fook all of the old trams left to use, obviously the gauge issue stops it. It would be as easy to build replicas of the old trams; would people pay to travel on them, though?

If they could manufacture them back in the 18th Century in Spa Road with limited technology there is no reason why they couldnt restore / rebuild a few working examples through various Fas schemes. I know Seattle imported a few vintage trams in from the Melbourne and use them as an attraction.
I believe the Directors tram is still in existace, I remember that rotting away in a field in Dalkey as a kid. All they would need is about four working examples travelling up and down a stretch of track on O Connell St, they would be a lot much more authentic than those butchered open top london busses that you see about. Tourism and advertising would pay for them.

tampopo

I have a bench form an old tram in my back garden. Leg(s) on one side shorter than the other. There must've been something high in the centre of the tram that necessitated a short leg. I've been dying to donate it to someone instead of junking it. It's a bit heavy to carry down the Heuston Station and the Historical Railway Soc (or whatever it's called).

It's one of those where the back slides back and forth when the tram changes direction so you can be facing the direction of travel all the time.

Ham'nd'egger

tampopo wrote: »

I have a bench form an old tram in my back garden. Leg(s) on one side shorter than the other. There must've been something high in the centre of the tram that necessitated a short leg. I've been dying to donate it to someone instead of junking it. It's a bit heavy to carry down the Heuston Station and the Historical Railway Soc (or whatever it's called).

It's one of those where the back slides back and forth when the tram changes direction so you can be facing the direction of travel all the time.

Tampopo, the Howth Transport museum would be very interested in a piece like that; if not to display then certainly to assist them in restoration projects. If you like, contact me off list and I can help move it from your abode (If it is practical, of course).

Runtodahills, the few remaining trams left in Ireland would have been restored from varying degrees of despair and neglect; if they are fit to move under their own power is another story entirely. Some trams are held in Howth at the museum there; more still are in Cultra in the Ulster Museum. It would be an interesting exercise to build a tram from new, though.

murphaph

I know there are many systems which run historical trams for parties/corporate hospitality and the like but the ones I know of are of a much more modern vintage than the likes of the trams that ran in Dublin.

Surely they'd interfere with the schedule anyway and it's not like we have "quiet" branch lines to run them on like mature networks on the continent.

Poxyshamrock

Yeah it would be nice to see vintage trams in dublin
especially with a nice taxi rammed into the side of it down queen street

astrofool

While it would be nice (esp. for tourists), we just don't have the network space available for older trams that might compromise speed/efficiency. Would have been nice if they had kept the Harcourt street line going, but Ireland doesn't look beyond tomorrow when planning

Red Alert

With the use of an out of sight diesel genset I suppose they could be taken for a run on a disused rail line?

corktina

put rubber wheels on it and we could run it on the M50:rolleyes:

John R

corktina wrote: »

put rubber wheels on it and we could run it on the M50:rolleyes:

There are a couple of replica Dublin trams in store somewhere. They were built on the chassis of a truck of some sort. They were made for one of the period films set in Dublin, Michael Collins possibly.

There are only a few restored Dublin trams around and even were it possible I highly doubt the groups that own them would approve of altering them to fit standard gauge.

There are many trams of similar age and older running on some working railways around the world, IOM, San Francisco and Blackpool come to mind but I'm sure there are others.

There is a large tram museum in Derbyshire with a working section of line where they run many vintage trams. They have a Hill of Howth tram there on display.

corktina

San Franciso are cable cars......slight but important difference

(they may have trams too, in which case I will stand to be corrected)

Prof_V

corktina wrote: »

San Franciso are cable cars......slight but important difference (they may have trams too, in which case I will stand to be corrected)

I believe they do have vintage trams on Market Street (and beyond):
http://www.streetcar.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Market_&_Wharves
http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/SanFrancisco/FMarket/

John R

corktina wrote: »

San Franciso are cable cars......slight but important difference

(they may have trams too, in which case I will stand to be corrected)

The famous image of SF is the cable-driven streetcars but they also have electric tram lines as well including one line through the centre of the city operated by vintage tram cars from across the US and a few from other parts of the world.

http://www.sfmta.com/cms/mfleet/histcars.php

steamengine

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Im curious to know would any of the restored vintage Dublin trams fit on the luas line. Im sure that they might have problems with track gauge, height clearance and voltage differences for the overhead wires. It would be nice to see some restored stock trumbeling across a section of it in the city. Many city still have preserved old stock in use, ie Melbourne, Seattle, San Fransisco, Doughlas in the Isle of Man. etc Blackpool is notable today as one of the three surviving non-heritage tramways to use double-deck trams, the others being Hong Kong and Alexandria, Egypt, Dublin could be another.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_asset.do?asset_id=686

Interesting question !!! The LUAS gauge being 1435mm possibly could facilitate the running of existing single deck vintage trams, such as the replica vintage trams in Portland, Oregon, or other vintage trams such as the old Porto (Portuguese) trams which are running in Memphis, Tennesee, and also in Philadelphia.

In Portland the vintage trams share the light rail system with their 'Luas type' trams.

The interesting part is the 1435mm gauge is the international standard gauge and the above trams all run on that gauge.

The older vintage trams would have to undergo serious modification to share any light rail system such as Luas, which I imagine would include at least new motors, control systems and fitting of pantographs.

Cookie_Monster

would this vintage thread run on the luas lines

steamengine

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

would this vintage thread run on the luas lines

If trams can be recycled then why not a thread !

Zoney

I missed it first time round. I'd imagine the main concern would be loading gauge and at that, you probably couldn't modify an original historic tram on heritage grounds, so it would have to be a fake almost-replica. Some such replica would allow modification to have different gauge wheelsets to be fitted compared to the original, as well as electric gear for modern Luas set-up.

However crazy this seems, it would be absolutely a non-runner if the loading gauge was different (i.e. if the original was too wide for the platforms - whatever about a modified replica, there would be no point in trying to design a slimmer version of a historic tram).

It might be a nice tourist attraction and doable enough as a not really authentic copy of an old tram (probably would have the history fans raging) but given our small "network" (two lines) and the passenger demand, it's probably not feasible (unless it could be run only at off-peak, but yet had enough tourists at those times). However, the existing lines don't really service tourist attractions.

In Lisbon, Portugal, they have some historic trams on the more lightly used and eccentric lines up hills and such (in fact running buses up these wouldn't be fun). In other words mostly dedicated historic lines, albeit I think they use common lines in the city centre (but unlike here, there is an actual network even in the city centre). Certainly worth a trip on if your visiting - I don't think they cost anymore than regular transport, they actually bring you to places of interest, and are an experience in themselves (in fact I'm sure tourists would pay a special extra charge for the experience - but perhaps they need the local passengers too to make up viable numbers). Quite amazing to be in this small wooden thing careening up/down hills, right next to buildings at times and on shared roadspace with people and cars!

corktina

apart from the guage difference, the wheel profile will be different too ...why not simply lay some correct track somewhere touristy and run them on their own line...somewhere likr the Hill Of Howth.... gawd knows Ireland could use some tourist attractions...

Typewriter

I remember seeing this vintage tram alot during the day when I lived in Amsterdam.

Amsterdam’s #2 Tram, the Netherlands

Sixteen tram lines operate in Amsterdam, and most have their own right-of-way track. They provide the main form of public transportation in the city center. The #2 tram travels past many of Amsterdam’s premier tourist attractions, such as the Royal Palace, De Nieuwe Kerk (New Church), Begijnhof, Bloemenmarkt (flower market), Rijksmuseum, Van Gogh Museum, and Vondelpark.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianpressphotography/4444785433/

Run_to_da_hills

corktina wrote: »

apart from the guage difference, the wheel profile will be different too ...why not simply lay some correct track somewhere touristy and run them on their own line...somewhere likr the Hill Of Howth.... gawd knows Ireland could use some tourist attractions...

Or perhaps at Moyasts and banish them out of sight along with the rest of Irish Railway heratige. :rolleyes:

steamengine

Here are the photos (hopefully) omitted from my last post ! The first two show the Porto trams as they are, in Porto, Portugal. The 'genuine vintage tram' some of which are still in use. Have travelled on these, Porto is a very hilly city, no bother though to these old 'ladies'.

The next photo shows one of these Porto trams now in service in Memphis. USA seems to be 'retro crazy' but fair dues to their 'can do' spirit. I believe they power them in some instances from mobile generators.

Lastly the replica vintage trams of Portland which run on a mixed light rail system such as Luas.

Imagine a trip on one of these trams over the Milltown viaduct !!!

Cookie_Monster

Ah, the #2 @ Leidesplien

I've seen another not so old tram running around Amsterdam, still old and obviously a special one too but only got fleeting glimpses. It was on either the 3 or 10 line iirc.

lord lucan

Been on these a few times in New Orleans. Not luxurious by any means but they do the job.

Cookie_Monster

lord lucan wrote: »

Been on these a few times in New Orleans. Not luxurious by any means but they do the job.

they have a distinctly military look about them

lord lucan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

they have a distinctly military look about them

They're streetcars,seem to be built for function more than form.They form part of the cities transport infrastructure as well as being a tourist attraction. There's slightly brighter ones that run along the riverfront that are aimed more at the tourists like these:

Run_to_da_hills

lord lucan wrote: »

They're streetcars,seem to be built for function more than form.They form part of the cities transport infrastructure as well as being a tourist attraction. There's slightly brighter ones that run along the riverfront that are aimed more at the tourists like these:

A streetcar is just Yankee term for a tram.

Those old W class Melbourne trams are (were) used at the Waterfront in Seattle are called streetcars.

John Lynch Ph.D

I cant see how it would be profitable

steamengine

John Lynch Ph.D wrote: »

I cant see how it would be profitable

Can tourist potential be measured in that manner? It may be difficult to quantify but let's look at the Isle of Man situation. It would be reasonable to assume that if the tourist trams and trains did not exist there, then the number of tourists would be less. The hospitality trade then incrues a much larger loss as this is where the major spend is. The total spend brought in through tourism is equivalent to a direct export as it is pure money flowing into the economy.

The converse is also true ie the introduction of such tourist attractions adds to the country's balance sheet. As such in this country we are well behind the curve with regard to rail tourism, amongst other attractions.

Run_to_da_hills

steamengine wrote: »

Can tourist potential be measured in that manner? It may be difficult to quantify but let's look at the Isle of Man situation. It would be reasonable to assume that if the tourist trams and trains did not exist there, then the number of tourists would be less. The hospitality trade incrues a much larger loss as this is where the big spend is. The total spend brought in through tourism is equivalent to a direct export as it is pure money flowing into the economy.

The converse is also true ie the introduction of such tourist attractions adds to the country's balance sheet. As such in this country we are well behind the curve with regard to rail tourism, amongst other attractions.

Same in Blackpool and as I mentioned earlier the Waterfront in Seattle. (which has been shelved ATM)

A tourist tram route doesn't have to be of great length but it would be important that it could link several key destinations so that it would attract some local commuter & recreational traffic (Not scumbag) an example of this would be the cable car network in San Fransisco.

A example of good route for a tourist tram would be the length of O'Connell St and on to collage Green and Dame St serving both sides of the road and circulating at each end of the terminus.with about 6 stops in between. About 4 cars would be sufficient on a short stretch. No point on having it on the Hill of Howth if it is not going to be used and seen by the people of Dublin, it was about 15 years since I was last out there myself.

dowlingm

I imagine the safety folks would have something to say about mixing LUAS and trams. Not to ban it outright perhaps but it could create enough issues to make it unviable. Exemptions from accessibility regs would also be an issue since they are not currently in service and thus grandfathered.

Additionally, since there are no loops in the LUAS only double end trams would need to apply.

Run_to_da_hills

dowlingm wrote: »

I imagine the safety folks would have something to say about mixing LUAS and trams. Not to ban it outright perhaps but it could create enough issues to make it unviable. Exemptions from accessibility regs would also be an issue since they are not currently in service and thus grandfathered.

Additionally, since there are no loops in the LUAS only double end trams would need to apply.

Rolling stock would have to be rebuilt from scratch to comply with safety fitting modern braking systems, electrics etc, as you say would be costly.

Alternatively they could operate those horrible looking tapeworm trucks as I call them. :mad:

steamengine

dowlingm wrote: »

I imagine the safety folks would have something to say about mixing LUAS and trams. Not to ban it outright perhaps but it could create enough issues to make it unviable. Exemptions from accessibility regs would also be an issue since they are not currently in service and thus grandfathered.

Additionally, since there are no loops in the LUAS only double end trams would need to apply.

Perhaps the replica vintage tram would present the most practical option as pertains in Portland, Oregon. The essential point is that these vintage 'trolleys' as they term them, run on their MAX light rail system. My experience of the U.S. is that they are extremely safety conscious and these trams would fully comply with regulations.

Oh yes ! we live in a country where a hundred reasons will be presented as to why such a venture is 'off the wall', not least the cost. Then again ten years ago there was an 'off the wall' millenium project called the 'time in the slime' which cost a lot of money and turned out to be a total waste. At least money invested in a vintage tram project would present an opportunity to be self-funding in the long term, due to its tourism potential.

dowlingm

steamengine wrote: »

Oh yes ! we live in a country where a hundred reasons will be presented as to why such a venture is 'off the wall', not least the cost. Then again ten years ago there was an 'off the wall' millenium project called the 'time in the slime'

Just because somebody funded something stupid (or many stupid things), we must fund every thing irrespective of ACTUAL tourism value? I think TV shows like Dragons' Den are a bit much but maybe there should be a televised show where people looking for grants (including those already getting them) are put through the wringer.

If we want to attract tourists, we should stop trying these twee ideas and instead sort out the gouging and rudeness in the hospitality industry and permanently rein in the despoilation of rural Ireland with Lego-like housing estates. There are loads of people in my office in Toronto who tell me they would love to come to Ireland but they never mention twee things, mostly the countryside - but then I have to warn them about the cost of things compared to what they are used to and that customer service isn't all it could be.

angel01

Surely they would end up going slower and end up affecting people who actually use them?

steamengine

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Same in Blackpool and as I mentioned earlier the Waterfront in Seattle. (which has been shelved ATM)

A tourist tram route doesn't have to be of great length but it would be important that it could link several key destinations so that it would attract some local commuter & recreational traffic (Not scumbag) an example of this would be the cable car network in San Fransisco.

A example of good route for a tourist tram would be the length of O'Connell St and on to collage Green and Dame St serving both sides of the road and circulating at each end of the terminus.with about 6 stops in between. About 4 cars would be sufficient on a short stretch. No point on having it on the Hill of Howth if it is not going to be used and seen by the people of Dublin, it was about 15 years since I was last out there myself.

+1....... If they could do it in Blackpool using a Howth tram as shown below then theoretically it could also be done here.



Its ironic really, vintage Dublin trams running abroad, when they could be running here !!!

dowlingm

steamengine wrote: »

+1....... If they could do it in Blackpool using a Howth tram as shown below

Will they continue to run the heritage trams after the Flexity 2 LRVs arrive?

steamengine

dowlingm wrote: »

Will they continue to run the heritage trams after the Flexity 2 LRVs arrive?

Apparently so, but in a much reduced form and as a tourist attraction only. Interestingly, it appears they will share the same track - Quote below.....'They will be modified to ensure they can access the new tram stops.'
http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/web/?siteid=5149&pageid=27008&e=e

center15

I have been monitoring this thread and yesterday visited the Railway Museum in Budapest. I think the users on here might enjoy some pics. It's a fantastic fun place with so much to do and see. It would be really great if Ireland took an interest in old trains and Heritage and opened something like this. Link

Judgement Day

center15 wrote: »

I have been monitoring this thread and yesterday visited the Railway Museum in Budapest. I think the users on here might enjoy some pics. It's a fantastic fun place with so much to do and see. It would be really great if Ireland took an interest in old trains and Heritage and opened something like this. Link

Sure we have this: http://www.nationaltransportmuseum.org/ and isn't that good enough besides Pat Wallace Director of the National Museum (for 22 years!!!) says we don't need anything better? :rolleyes:

L1011

I dunno who exactly gave me a full tour of that including the restricted area a few years back but they admitted then that they needed a lot more space and a lot more cash - insubordination? :P

steamengine

There is also The Ulster Transport Museum at Cultra.

The star attraction is 'Maedbh' which was last operated by CIE.

http://www.nmni.com/uftm/Collections/Transport-(1)/Transport-Galleries/Transport-Galleries

dowlingm

Redesigning Hong Kong's iconic trams (Railway Gazette 14 October 2010)

CHINA: Hong Kong Tramways operator Veolia Transport is planning to refurbish the fleet of 163 traditional double-deck trams. The HK$75m project, which will start in 2011 and is expected to take seven years, is part of a HK$200m investment programme to improve services over the next five years.

Jimllfixit

It's good to see interest in recovering and restoring vintage trams. I was a nipper living in Dalkey in the early 1950's and was once "allowed" in to see the Director's tram in the back yard of the house where it had been taken.

Although I was too young to understand, I always thought it was odd to keep it in a pig-yard: the curtains, windows, upholstery and decor were still in good nick after 10 years of maltreatment by the pigs that apparently lived in it, and all I could think of was, "my Mum would kill me if I had put muddy feet on the seats". So sad to see the pictures of the wreck as it left the pigs behind:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/environment-geography/transport/20th-century-transport-in/executive-travel-the-dire/

I'm glad to hear it has gone to the Transport Museum, even if it is kept in a shed, it's a whole lot better than where it was.

Run_to_da_hills

Jimllfixit wrote: »

It's good to see interest in recovering and restoring vintage trams. I was a nipper living in Dalkey in the early 1950's and was once "allowed" in to see the Director's tram in the back yard of the house where it had been taken.

Although I was too young to understand, I always thought it was odd to keep it in a pig-yard: the curtains, windows, upholstery and decor were still in good nick after 10 years of maltreatment by the pigs that apparently lived in it, and all I could think of was, "my Mum would kill me if I had put muddy feet on the seats". So sad to see the pictures of the wreck as it left the pigs behind:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/environment-geography/transport/20th-century-transport-in/executive-travel-the-dire/

I'm glad to hear it has gone to the Transport Museum, even if it is kept in a shed, it's a whole lot better than where it was.

This photo was taken by a family member just months before it was set on fire. I saw the tram before and after and was shocked.

What made me sick was that it was left into the hands of a wierdo that had no intention of selling it or handing it over until after it was left as a burnt out shell. I saw it again last year and it was in a very pity state, If it couldn't be restored when there was money in the country what hope is there of restoring it now.




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