Tone is in the fingers...

Voodu Child

...

No its not.

Discuss

Dord

To a certain degree, yes. Its all part of the bigger picture though.

sei046

It is def a part of a bigger picture alright. You need to listen to how vibrato effects how a note sounds. No amont of eq will replicate that! you need to listen to how the players naturally compress their playing and control sustain. A good player will be doing that themselves. Their amps are the last thing in the chain you have to remember, run a cat into that amp and its not going to sound too great. It HAS to be good at the source. When have you heard a 9yr old playin korn into a mesa and though " WHAT A TONE ! "

sei046

sorry voodoo just saw other post. So you think the way a compressor compresses should be different to a player consciously playing like that. If you dont give an amp something to do it wont do anything. If you play a high E in an amp your not going to get that nice low end. you need to know how to get something out of your rig, not get it to do the work. Tone starts in the fingers and stays there until the last minute.

-=al=-

its a bit of column A and a bit of column B

Voodu Child

Sei, you're confusing tone and playing style/technique.

Tone is a literal thing, a desciption of the tonal qualities of an instrument. Not about feel, vibrato, technique, speed etc.

Karl Hungus

-=al=- wrote: »

its a bit of column A and a bit of column B

This I agree with.

For example, simple picking dynamics can have a big effect on tone, but on the flip side, an overly compressed amp might even out those dynamics, whereas another amp, those picking dynamics can really shine through in a big way.

Gaspode

Tone is not in the Fingers; Talent is in the fingers. Tone is in the ear of the beholder - good tone to listener A is sh1t tone to listener B.

I doubt we could even agree as a group what tone is never mind come to any agreement on the topic in hand.
Tone = Quality or character of a sound. (from dictionary.com)

Voodu Child

A common phrase is something along the lines of
'Tone is in the fingers, Joe Satriani could play through any amp, and still sound like himself'...(or Eric Johnson, Petrucci or whoever)

But again, this ISNT tone.

Because Joe's tone is COMPLETELY different between say a SLO album (The Extremist) and a JSX album (Super Collosal).

Of course he sounds like Joe either way, but the TONE(!) is different. Tone is a literal description of the character of a sound, as des rightly says. Bassy, fizzy, fat, thin, trebbley, clean, chimey etc. This is what the word tone refers to, not how good or bad a player is, or how wide his vibrato is, or what his picking dnyamics are. These are what he DOES with the tone, and how he uses it.

sei046

quality or character of a sound. Exactly. That is depending an awful lot on the source. You cant add quality to a bad sound with an amp. it HAS to be good going in! If i didnt feel my amp or guitar made a difference i would have a squier and an Mg but i dont. I have more gear tha i know what to do with so dont get me wrong!

-=al=-

The tone on the extremist is amazing, much better than his new JSX sound... i much prefare his older tones to new

Karl Hungus

-=al=- wrote: »

The tone on the extremist is amazing, much better than his new JSX sound... i much prefare his older tones to new

Agreed. Crystal Planet was great too, sounds much better than his newer stuff.

Voodu Child

-=al=- wrote: »

The tone on the extremist is amazing, much better than his new JSX sound... i much prefare his older tones to new

That pretty much says it all.

You can appreciate that the playing, technique and 'feel' are the same (Joe sounds like Joe), but the tone, or 'tonal characteristics' are different.

Even Joe can't make a JSX sound like a Soldano

sei046

im not disagreeing that you need the right equipment to have signature tones but i dont like the way people without a doubt forget about the fingers part of it!

Karl Hungus

sei046 wrote: »

im not disagreeing that you need the right equipment to have signature tones but i dont like the way people without a doubt forget about the fingers part of it!

I don't think anyone's under the impression that having the same gear as Steve Vai would make you instantly sound like him.

cornbb

im not disagreeing that you need the right equipment to have signature tones but i dont like the way people without a doubt forget about the fingers part of it!

I agree, if I follow what you're saying correctly. I think a good signature tone come from a combination of playing technique and correspondingly tasteful selection of equipment and tweaking of eq/compression/effects. There's no skill in compressing the sh*t out of something and then playing without regard for dynamics and other nuances like that - there'd be no point in careful, subtle picking then anyway as the compression would just kill it.

-=al=-

but it might help a bit


and i want a soldano.

sei046

Yes i know. But this board needs to start getting into the oul sublties!

Dord

Well lest us not forget another argument that could be brought into the equation.

Your instrument resonates, yes? This affects the sound.
You are playing the instrument, holding it. You are made up of 60%~ (it varies) water. You would also resonate. This could potentially have an effect on the tone.

I'm not saying that this is totally accurate but its something to think about.

Voodu Child

sei046 wrote: »

Yes i know. But this board needs to start getting into the oul sublties!

Maybe start a 'This is the Instruments forum - Post pics your fingers..' thread?

Dord

voodoo_child wrote: »

Maybe start a 'This is the Instruments forum - Post pics your fingers..' thread?

I think I have a picture of my hand somewhere.

Karl Hungus

sei046 wrote: »

Yes i know. But this board needs to start getting into the oul sublties!

To be entirely fair, this is the place we talk about the gear. I think the practice, and all the subtleties of playing is something you do on your own, or with friends or band members, and it doesn't translate as well into the written word. Your playing isn't really as tangible a thing as a guitar.

From your sig, we all know a lot about the things you play, but we don't know whether or not you're into the subtleties yourself. For all we know, you're into playing as much as Vai or Satch, or you could just jam around once a week. Likewise, for all you know, most of the people on could be hugely into the playing side of things, and you can't tell.

It's speculative tbh.

Parsley

It's far more true on bass than it is on guitar. For fingerstyle players anyway!

sei046

Exactly! and i think there should be omre talk about the other stuff. In conjunction with the gear. The only way to get a really good tone is to have a good understanding of technique and gear and i just think we dont need two seperate places for that. Like I like my fenders because they take an awful lot better to subtle nuances in playing than my marshs. Do i need to go somewhere else to talk about the type of playing i like on fenders and back here for fenders!

See you could have avoided the earlier comment if we were more about why we like the gear in terms of what it does to our tone. like "Low end! WOW!" comments say so little! Maybe your amp has a nice definition in chords on the distortion channel so you can hear whats going on! you get what im saying?!

And from my sig you have no idea about the things i play lol

sei046

and gear talk tends to translate terribly into words. worse than most things

Karl Hungus

sei046 wrote: »

And from my sig you have no idea about the things i play lol

So you don't play the things you've got in your sig?

Dord

Sei, there's a technique forum just off this one. This one is really for gear talk.

Parsley, I couldn't agree more!!!

Karl Hungus

Parsley wrote: »

It's far more true on bass than it is on guitar. For fingerstyle players anyway!

Oh, and I disagree with this. I think it's very dependant on style, you can play fingerstyle on guitars too, you know?

Dord

Karl Hungus wrote: »

So you don't play the things you've got in your sig?

He plays Didarrio strings

*chuckles*

Dord

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Oh, and I disagree with this. I think it's very dependant on style, you can play fingerstyle on guitars too, you know?

More contact with your instrument means more control of your tone, no?

sei046

OH! sorry man i thought you meant styles!
Its just writing about gear means nothing when not in context.... like it has a lot of mids.....thats great....when??????.... Its impossible to hear an amp through words. All these terms are relative so if we get more precise about what sort of playing does what to the amp its easier. Like when it responds well to palm muting on powerchords or something. That says an awful lot more than "Really nice crunchy sound"

Karl Hungus

sei046 wrote: »

OH! sorry man i thought you meant styles!

No worries, you are forgiven.

Its just writing about gear means nothing when not in context.... like it has a lot of mids.....thats great....when??????.... Its impossible to hear an amp through words. All these terms are relative so if we get more precise about what sort of playing does what to the amp its easier. Like when it responds well to palm muting on powerchords or something. That says an awful lot more than "Really nice crunchy sound"

So what, you want us to have strict guidelines that people adhere to when describing gear?

I don't see how that can be functionally implimented. If you want to try and describe gear to a better standard yourself, then off you go, but honestly, I think if someone describes something as "omg, sounds AWESOME!!!11!" then that comment will be taken in the context it was written in, and people will read it as vague, not as something that is quantifyably awesome.

Dord

I think you're asking too much Sei.

Karl Hungus

Still though, good discussion.

sei046

No lads..... look someone made a comment that tone was more in teh fingers, this was disagreed with and was said to have been out of line(or badly masked or something) so i am saying that is to be expected when talking about gear in the terms we use to talk about gear! It was stupid that playing abilities came into a "look at my new x " thread but all im saying is that sort of thing is to be expected! We cant discuss gear in a way which REALLY puts across what it means to us and our playing. So like Karl can only give us an idea of what it is like to his ears when really he loves it because it suits his playing( i presume ). and how can we understand that when we dont know his playing! hence the comment.


That was complicated! I agolopize but i think you might know what i mean. Its best not take notice of playing comments on a " shiny new " thread because 90% its about the face value attributes of the amp, not what it actually really is in karls situation. THERE WE GO!

sei046

yes defo good discussion! Gets something going!

Karl Hungus

sei046 wrote: »

No lads..... look someone made a comment that tone was more in teh fingers, this was disagreed with and was said to have been out of line(or badly masked or something) so i am saying that is to be expected when talking about gear in the terms we use to talk about gear! It was stupid that playing abilities came into a "look at my new x " thread but all im saying is that sort of thing is to be expected! We cant discuss gear in a way which REALLY puts across what it means to us and our playing. So like Karl can only give us an idea of what it is like to his ears when really he loves it because it suits his playing( i presume ). and how can we understand that when we dont know his playing! hence the comment.


That was complicated! I agolopize but i think you might know what i mean. Its best not take notice of playing comments on a " shiny new " thread because 90% its about the face value attributes of the amp, not what it actually really is in karls situation. THERE WE GO!

I don't want to drag the whole argument across to this thread as well, but I really don't think that's what was meant by the comment.

If you want to go back to my new amp thread, and ask me more specific questions about exactly what I mean, and what I'm playing when I talk about so and so, then I'll try and answer you as best I can, I'd more than happy to.

sei046

i wasnt slagging your description skills Karl I was first of all trying to spark a bit of contraversy to begin with. But i was also trying to get some of the less experienced players into their control of their equipment to begin with! Not the other way around!

Karl Hungus

Don't worry, I didn't take your comments as slagging. Still, if you're interested in more specific descriptions, I'd be more than happy to talk about it.

sei046

and even though i do feel the tone starts in the fingers I am also rising a lot of you for the sake of discussion.

Karl Hungus

sei046 wrote: »

and even though i do feel the tone starts in the fingers I am also rising a lot of you for the sake of discussion.

More discussion is always a good thing, and this place had been fading for a while, so it's very welcome.

I don't disagree that tone starts in the fingers, but your gear does account for a great deal of the overall sound. Look how specific a Tele sounds, compared to a Les Paul, it ain't the fingers doing that.

Voodu Child

Aye, good discussion alright.

Dord

Karl Hungus wrote: »

More discussion is always a good thing, and this place had been fading for a while, so it's very welcome.

I don't disagree that tone starts in the fingers, but your gear does account for a great deal of the overall sound. Look how specific a Tele sounds, compared to a Les Paul, it ain't the fingers doing that.

leninbenjamin

for me it starts with the fingers, goes on a little wander, takes a sightseeing tour, eats out in a fine restaurant, goes to the theatre then ends in the fingers. some people put much higher value on the different tonal qualities of amps, guitar, eq etc. than i do. I don't see a problem with that, but i'm not fussy to be honest. I'm as comfortable playing POS guitar through a solid state as i am on a high end through a valve with all them different gadgets and what have you, and that's what matters to me at the end of the day. i'll still sound as **** on either set up.

so it's all in yer heads, and not in a bad way.

fuse

Yeah the fingers definitely have an affect on the end tone in my experience. As a bassist, I use my fingers to get a certain tone, both fretting fingers & plucking fingers. Also, it depends where my right hand is plucking the strings from.

Johnny Storm

I'm inclined to agree with Leninbenjamin. Plus, of course, I thought everyone knew that tone is in the trousers.

Now - has anyone actually defined what "guitar tone" is?

It seems to me (and as cornbb posted above) that guitar tone is a combination of the sonic properties of the rig in question combined with the attack, dynamics and subtle nuances of fingering and vibrato etc of the player in question (not when I'm playing obviously).

So IMHO it's very difficult to separate the tonal effects of the fingers and the gear.

Voodu Child

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Now - has anyone actually defined what "guitar tone" is?

Well, I should clarify where this thread is coming from (because it was split from another and the discussion had been running for a few posts).

We're talking about the old saying, where someone see's a lovely guitar or amp, or effects unit, and says 'bah humbug, why would you want something like that, tone is in the fingers'.

We're not for a minute suggesting that a great player can't coax amazing nuances from his/her instrument, and that seems to be where most guys are getting confused.

We're talking about literal tone - treble, mid, bass, clean/dirty, harmonic content, bloom, sustain, smoothness etc. All the things that define what makes one particular amp or guitar (or any instrument) stand out from others.

By the 'magic' of your fingers, you can't make a Marshall MG sound like a Dual Rectifier, or a Gibson bridge pickup sound like a Strat singlecoil. Therefore, in the literal sense, tone is in the gear.

Dord

voodoo_child wrote: »

By the 'magic' of your fingers, you can't make a Marshall MG sound like a Dual Rectifier, or a Gibson bridge pickup sound like a Strat singlecoil. Therefore, in the literal sense, tone is in the gear.

I agree, you can't change the overall characteristics of the guitar/amp setup but I think you can notice slight differences in tone between players using the same setup. Again, its nothing major. But the player does have an affect on the tone to some degree.

Johnny Storm

voodoo_child wrote: »

Well, I should clarify where this thread is coming from (because it was split from another and the discussion had been running for a few posts).

We're talking about the old saying, where someone see's a lovely guitar or amp, or effects unit, and says 'bah humbug, why would you want something like that, tone is in the fingers'.

We're not for a minute suggesting that a great player can't coax amazing nuances from his/her instrument, and that seems to be where most guys are getting confused.

We're talking about literal tone - treble, mid, bass, clean/dirty, harmonic content, bloom, sustain, smoothness etc. All the things that define what makes one particular amp or guitar (or any instrument) stand out from others.

By the 'magic' of your fingers, you can't make a Marshall MG sound like a Dual Rectifier, or a Gibson bridge pickup sound like a Strat singlecoil. Therefore, in the literal sense, tone is in the gear.

I hear what you're saying, man.
If I understand you corrently you are talking about the timbre of the music.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre

Like if you had a pair of MIDI-controlled robot arms that was playing David Gilmour's guitar and rig then what you would be hearing would just be the tone (or timbre) of his gear with no "magic" at all.

FWIW, and I dont know if this contributes to the discussion at all, when I'm listening to one of my favourite guitarists it's really the "magic" I'm listening out for. The "timbre/tone" part of the music makes a difference but to me, a pretty small one.

Music4life

"But the player does have an affect on the tone to some degree." I agree Bb King c'mon who else can a tone like him.:D

nij

I think very little of what we perceive when we hear a song has to do with the gear or the 'literal' tone. Most of what we actually take on board as the general 'tone' of a guitar is actually the emotion that the player is squeezing out of it. Conveying emotion through your guitar is something that takes many years to master, regardless of how quick and technically accomplished you are. Finding the right equipment is more about ironing out the tonal elements that piss you off when you hear yourself play (i.e. too much high/low end, too much fuzz), but it will never change how you sound as much as your playing style will.

EVH would still blow us away playing through a Marshall MG15DFX with a Squier.

EDIT: Ok, not so much high/low end, but stuff like the ugly uneven harmonics you get from cheap crap.