"The Auld Racism"

marcsignal

Dunno if this is better suited to Politics ? but Mods feel free to move as appropriate.....

OK, I realise this has probably been done to death on boards before, but it creeps into so many discussions here, maybe it deserves a thread of its own.

I think Racism, by its’ true definition, is Completely Wrong, and Unacceptable Anywhere, but it really annoys the bejeasus out of me when you come up against people, who seem like they’re just waiting for any opportunity to shout RACIST !!

I confess to being, 'Definitely Not Politically Correct', at the best of times, and tbh you’ll get no apologies for it. Generally speaking, the good old concept of Mutual Respect still works for me, because it has to be shown, earned, and learned.
The understanding of what is, and what is not, truly Racist, seems to be very very muddy these days. So I’ll just list a few things that are IMO, both Racist, and Not Racist, and we’ll go from there. In Particular, I hope Immigrants/Foreign Nationals/Persons of ALL Races will contribute here, with their own slant on the issue.

OK Here we go

IMO
Believing you are genetically, intellectually, and, say, spiritually superior, to persons of other Races, purely on the basis of your Race = RACIST

Hating persons of any other Race purely on the basis of their Race = RACIST

Telling derogatory, Racially motivated jokes = RACIST

Using Derogatory terms, to describe persons of different Races (We all know them) = RACIST

And IMO

Believing Race can sometimes be an Issue, but not a Problem = Not RACIST

Not having any Hip Hop or Reggae on your iPod, because you don’t like it = Not RACIST

Using the term ‘Black Coffee’ = Not RACIST

Dreaming of a White Christmas = Not RACIST
................................................................................................................

NB: Please briefly read/browse through the WHOLE thread before Posting, so as to avoid us going around in Circles.

Thanks

beans

Jedi scum

I disagree about your derogatory terms / jokes = racist thing. Words is words, actions is actions.

toiletduck

marcsignal wrote: »

Telling derogatory, Racially motivated jokes = RACIST

Couldn't disagree more.

TPD

I agree with disagreeing on the jokes thing. It would be racist if said maliciously to someone belonging to the race involved though.

Though I'd think assuming black people have hip-hop and reggae on their ipods is quite racist.

marcsignal

Em, I dunno Beans, I suppose you could have a joke with a racial theme that's not necessarily derogatory, per say.

Do you not think over exposure to derogatory racially motivated jokes, could lead to comlplacancy about things that could be considered truly racist ?

TPD wrote: »

Though I'd think assuming black people have hip-hop and reggae on their ipods is quite racist.

i was refering to white people

Morlar

I think some people who cry 'racist !' a lot deep down they think they are somehow superior to the (insert minority name here_) and in their arrogance think that they (minority) need defending from any criticism negative or unfair or whatever. I think its this inate superiority complex that the pc crowd have marks them out as being the most likely to scream racist. Thats my theory anyway.

I think also a lot of times its just an emotional over-reaction - or a reading of things from a perspective of actively looking to find elements of political incorrectness.

If you look hard enough you can see things that arent necessarily there - or you can see stamements that are meant to be factual or honest and free of bias as being unfairly negative.

To some people if you say ANYTHING remotely negative about certain selected minorities - you are racist. Its much the same as if you criticise israel to some people will say that you have to be a devout evil anti-semitic person - and that you cant just . . . . . for example not be a fan of the way the state of israel behaves on occassion. Some people use accusations of racism or anti semitism as a way of bypassing legitimate or honest criticism. Which is a bit of a pain and kind of inversely fascist imo.

marcsignal

TPD wrote: »

I agree with disagreeing on the jokes thing. It would be racist if said maliciously to someone belonging to the race involved though.

Ok, but it also depends on how the said joke is delivered

ie: "Did you hear about the n***er etc etc..." in any scenario, wouldn't be acceptable IMO

Morlar wrote: »

I think some people who cry 'racist !' a lot deep down they think they are somehow superior to the (insert minority name here_) and in their arrogance think that they (minority) need defending from any criticism negative or unfair or whatever. I think its this inate superiority complex that the pc crowd have marks them out as being the most likely to scream racist. Thats my theory anyway.

I think also a lot of times its just an emotional over-reaction - or a reading of things from a perspective of actively looking to find elements of political incorrectness.

If you look hard enough you can see things that arent necessarily there - or you can see stamements that are meant to be factual or honest and free of bias as being unfairly negative.

To some people if you say ANYTHING remotely negative about certain selected minorities - you are racist. Its much the same as if you criticise israel to some people will say that you have to be a devout evil anti-semitic person - and that you cant just . . . . . for example not be a fan of the way the state of israel behaves on occassion. Some people use accusations of racism or anti semitism as a way of bypassing legitimate or honest criticism. Which is a bit of a pain and kind of inversely fascist imo.

yeah, i'd agree with you there Molar.

TPD

Well that would be the derogatory terms, the joke itself 9 times out of 10 can be told without any offensive words.

There was an 'afro turf' one I heard recently that I dont think anyone could take too much offense to. I wouldnt take any more offense to a joke about my skin colour than I would about some other physical property I cant change - say the shape of my nose or size of my feet.

marcsignal

TPD wrote: »

I wouldnt take any more offense to a joke about my skin colour than I would about some other physical property I cant change - say the shape of my nose or size of my feet.

good point TBD, but I've heard some really funny jokes with racial themes from black and jewish friends, that I wouldn't feel comfortable telling myself.

Nichololas

marcsignal wrote: »

TPD wrote: »

Though I'd think assuming black people have hip-hop and reggae on their ipods is quite racist.

i was refering to white people

I think his point is that you uniquely associated hip-hop and reggae as something that is representative of black music taste as a whole, when in fact there are black people that like neither hip-hop or reggae. :rolleyes:

Terry

Moved from AH at the OP's request.

biko

Chris Rock on racism.
I guess he divides it up along the line black people/n*ggers as white people/white trash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDfSDuKzbvs

marcsignal

Enlil_Nick wrote: »

I think his point is that you uniquely associated hip-hop and reggae as something that is representative of black music taste as a whole

well, actually i never mentioned black people once, when i refered to iPod & Hip Hop or Reggae, I was refering to white people. The reason I mention it, is that when i've expressed my own dislike of hip hop, in the past, I've gotten some odd reactions from people, assuming i didn't like it because it was associated, to some degree, with black culture, as opposed to just not liking it musically.

Enlil_Nick wrote: »

when in fact there are black people that like neither hip-hop or reggae. :rolleyes:

eh ? yeah, like i don't know that ? i have at least 3 black friends in Dublin that dont like hip hop, so it's not exactly news to me.

Terry wrote: »

Moved from AH at the OP's request.

thanks terry

ojewriej

TPD wrote: »

I wouldnt take any more offense to a joke about my skin colour than I would about some other physical property I cant change - say the shape of my nose or size of my feet.

I don't think it's that simple really. You can have 10 PhDs, Nobel prize and an Oscar but they will be people who will still think you are something lesser, coz you speak with a funny accent. This can be annoying for some people.

Having said that, I do think that the word Racism is way overused. As I said somewhere else on the boards, i think people who do it are as bad as actual racists.

We have our differences, and pretending otherwise just causes problems. Especially in Ireland now with the influx of foreigners. This has an effect on this country, in some cases good in some cases bad. Pretending that nothing is happening is just plain stupid and short sighted. I mean nearly a million people from loads of different backgrounds came to the country with a population of 4 million within the last 10 years. Of course there will be consequences.

The problem with that is that there is no discussion about it. The mantra is we are all equal, the same and that's that. Whoever says differently is a racist. Even Kevin Myers stopped writing about immigration - i don't exactly agree with everything he says, but at least he was trying. But he was stopped by the PR brigade and just had enough. And I don't blame him.

And just to make it clear, i'm a foreigner myslef, so i'm kinda allowed to go on rants about that ;-)

Nichololas

marcsignal wrote: »

well, actually i never mentioned black people once, when i refered to iPod & Hip Hop or Reggae, I was refering to white people. The reason I mention it, is that when i've expressed my own dislike of hip hop, in the past, I've gotten some odd reactions from people, assuming i didn't like it because it was associated, to some degree, with black culture, as opposed to just not liking it musically.
thanks terry

I didn't mean to be too sarky, I just found that point a little unclear.

I've also never met someone who would assume a person's opinions on hip-hop stems from their feelings towards the entire black race. I have, however, met racist bastards whose favourite artists are 50 Cent, though.

marcsignal

Enlil_Nick wrote: »

I didn't mean to be too sarky, I just found that point a little unclear.

jeez, no offence taken, no worries

Enlil_Nick wrote: »

I have, however, met racist bastards whose favourite artists are 50 Cent, though.

yeah, so have I, and i'm thinking WTF ???? Like irish republicans, who support Man Utd/Liverpool, thats a fckn mystery to me ??

Shellie13

Enlil_Nick wrote: »

I think his point is that you uniquely associated hip-hop and reggae as something that is representative of black music taste as a whole, when in fact there are black people that like neither hip-hop or reggae. :rolleyes:

and there are irish people who DONT like trad music

boys who DONT like football

and newzelanders who DONT play rugby

its not racist to make assuptions about likes/dislikes unless done in a negative light

oscarBravo

Heads up: you're in Politics now, and Politics rules apply. Posts from this point on will be moderated as such.

Fratton Fred

It's very simple as far as i can see. If you intend to put someone down or discriminate against them because of their race, then it's racist. Not liking a certain type of music is not racist, to not like it simply becaue it is black/asian music wold raise questions about your own prejudices.

Turn the whole thing on it's head for a moment and put yourself in the shoes of someone being descriminated against. What would upset you? do you dislike jokes about the Irish, or only when told by a Brit as a put down? Do you dislike the term Paddy, or only when used by a Brit as a put down.

The whole racism thing is fairly straight forward, do unto others and all that.

DrumSteve

People who are very PC do not want to offend anyone and in the process they do offend someone. For instance last year AFAIK in crumlin childrens hospital they took down a manger at christmas in case it offended any non christians. but what about the people in the hospital who were christian?(this is just an example)

Trevor McDonald made a joke after bernard manning died calling him a fat,white bastard. I can appreciate the context this was in as bernard was a racist but it makes you think... if this had been a white newsreader his career would be over and he'd probably be sued to hell.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/26/njoke126.xml

Im by no means a racist ive got friends from many different cultures but i can see where some people would get the hump.

brianthebard

Morlar wrote: »

I think some people who cry 'racist !' a lot deep down they think they are somehow superior to the (insert minority name here_) and in their arrogance think that they (minority) need defending from any criticism negative or unfair or whatever. I think its this inate superiority complex that the pc crowd have marks them out as being the most likely to scream racist. Thats my theory anyway.

I think also a lot of times its just an emotional over-reaction - or a reading of things from a perspective of actively looking to find elements of political incorrectness.

I agree, its another form of positive discrimination, where someone feels that they have to defend the poor down trodden ethnic minority. It especially pisses me off when that same person complains "skangers" or "knackers" and treats travellers or people from inner city estates in the same way or worse as racists treat other ethnic minorities. Happens a lot to imo.

marcsignal

I'm confused sometines about the RAR (Residents Against Racism) group.
In principal, their cause is a good one, but I've only ever seen them on the news defending the rights of Africans, to stay in Ireland, for example, I've never seen them on the news defending the rights of a Middle Eastern Person, or a Chinese Person

I've also wondered, if a former white farmer had come to Ireland from Zimbabwe, with his family, fleeing persecution from, the Racist, "Robert Mugabe" and his thugs at home, and were in danger of being deported. How quick would RAR be, to defend their right to stay in Ireland ?? and if they wouldn't take the case on board, wouldn't that be slightly racist ??

Fratton Fred

I remember seeing the BNP demonstrating outside a Mosque in London where a group of high rnking Immans were discussing how best to go about implementing Sharia (sp?) law in the UK. Because the BNP were there, Anti Fascist Action were there to try and disrupt their demonstration. The irony was, what was being discussed inside the mosque was far more discriminatory than the BNP's politics, but becuase they were Muslim, the AFA seemed to lose sight of the fact that they could be Racist/Sexist/homophobic etc.

It's a sad world when political views get in the way of decent ordinary common sense.

marcsignal

I know what you mean FF, I've also found some of the people who are most Pro Immigration/Multiculturalism can be very choosey. For example i'm sure there are parts of the world where Female Circumsision is allowed and practiced culturally. But when a person with those cultural beliefs come to Ireland the Feminazis are up in arms ??

I don't think its fair to say to someone, well we'll have this bit, and that bit of your beliefs/cultural practices, but you'll have to leave this bit, and that bit of your beliefs/cultural practices at the door.

You either accept something warts and all, or you don't.

djpbarry

marcsignal wrote: »

Telling derogatory, Racially motivated jokes = RACIST

Depends on the context, and it depends on who's telling it.

marcsignal wrote: »

Believing Race can sometimes be an Issue, but not a Problem = Not RACIST

Not sure I understand this one. Surely if someone believes that race is "an issue" ...

Morlar wrote: »

I think some people who cry 'racist !' a lot deep down they think they are somehow superior to the (insert minority name here_) and in their arrogance think that they (minority) need defending from any criticism negative or unfair or whatever.

Interesting point - does that make the people in question racist themselves?

Morlar wrote: »

To some people if you say ANYTHING remotely negative about certain selected minorities - you are racist.

Well, that would be racist, because you would be generalising based on ethnicity.

marcsignal wrote: »

The reason I mention it, is that when i've expressed my own dislike of hip hop, in the past, I've gotten some odd reactions from people, assuming i didn't like it because it was associated, to some degree, with black culture, as opposed to just not liking it musically.

That has actually happened to me too, albeit just the once. The irony is that the guy making the accusations was one of the racist people I've ever met!

ojewriej wrote: »

I mean nearly a million people from loads of different backgrounds came to the country with a population of 4 million within the last 10 years.

Let's not exaggerate.

ojewriej wrote: »

The problem with that is that there is no discussion about it.

See, I just don't understand it when people say that. Scarcely a day goes by when the word 'immigration' or 'immigrant' does not appear in a newspaper. And besides, these issues have been discussed at length on this very forum!

ojewriej wrote: »

Even Kevin Myers stopped writing about immigration - i don't exactly agree with everything he says, but at least he was trying. But he was stopped by the PR brigade and just had enough. And I don't blame him.

He stopped because he couldn't find enough people to support his warped ideas.

DrumSteve wrote: »

For instance last year AFAIK in crumlin childrens hospital they took down a manger at christmas in case it offended any non christians. but what about the people in the hospital who were christian?

Religious symbolism has no place in public buildings.

DrumSteve wrote: »

I can appreciate the context this was in as bernard was a racist but it makes you think... if this had been a white newsreader his career would be over and he'd probably be sued to hell.

I don't think so. Bernard Manning was a racist pig - Trev was just telling it like it is.

marcsignal

djpbarry wrote: »

Depends on the context, and it depends on who's telling it.

The key word here is really 'derogatory' but I don't think it matters who is telling the jokes, if they're derogatory, they are by their very nature offensive. Having said that I've heard some hilarious Black and Jewish jokes form Black and Jewish friends, that are racially motivated, but not derogatory, but, that said, I wouldn't feel comfortable telling them myself, being neither Black or Jewish.

djpbarry wrote: »

Not sure I understand this one. Surely if someone believes that race is "an issue" ...

'issue' was probalby not the best choice of word here. But as an example, if your neighbour in an Apartment block was Muslim, I'd consider it just good manners, and having consideration for him/her by avoiding having loud, late night parties during Ramadam. In that case his race might be an issue, when plannng a party, but not necessarily a problem.
If you know what I mean ?? Ok not suggesting you live like a monk because of it, but rather to try ones best to extend him/her the respect you'd like him/her to extend you.

djpbarry wrote: »

That has actually happened to me too, albeit just the once. The irony is that the guy making the accusations was one of the racist people I've ever met!

my experience exactly, see back a few posts.

djpbarry wrote: »

See, I just don't understand it when people say that. Scarcely a day goes by when the word 'immigration' or 'immigrant' does not appear in a newspaper. And besides, these issues have been discussed at length on this very forum!

I do think when 'race' (the elephant in the corner of the room) or immigration, for example, is discussed, many people are reluctant to mention the negative aspects of say, multiculturalism, for example, for fear of being labelled racist, and consequently, say nothing instead. Let's face it, who would want to be labelled a Racist ? Not me anyway, no thanks.

djpbarry wrote: »

He stopped because he couldn't find enough people to support his warped ideas.

Ehhh, I have no special love for Myres, but I couldn't accept that as valid without seeing some stats. I personally think, it's more likely, that many people disliked his 'West Brit' persona and his tendancy to come over as arrogant.

djpbarry wrote: »

Religious symbolism has no place in public buildings.

I honestlly think the manger only became Religious Symbolism in the last 5 years or so. Before then nobody had a problem with it.

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't think so. Bernard Manning was a racist pig - Trev was just telling it like it is.

Yes Manning was a disgusting person, however if 'Brian Dobson' was to make a similar remark about Robert Mugabe, who IMO is also a Racist Pig, even in private circles, I believe he would be missing form the 6 one news pretty sharpish.

ParkRunner

marcsignal wrote: »

I'm confused sometines about the RAR (Residents Against Racism) group.
In principal, their cause is a good one, but I've only ever seen them on the news defending the rights of Africans, to stay in Ireland, for example, I've never seen them on the news defending the rights of a Middle Eastern Person, or a Chinese Person

I agree Marc, the RAR have little credibility, especially with a name like they have. Not every immigrant is a legitimate asylum seeker, in fact very few are in Ireland so it's bordering on defamatory accusing people of being racist for wanting to have an immigration policy that is based on international standards

the_syco

biko wrote: »

Chris Rock on racism.
I guess he divides it up along the line black people/n*ggers as white people/white trash.

I guess he divides it up along the line black people/n*ggers as white people/[knackers/scumbags]...

ojewriej wrote: »

We have our differences

Racist!:p

Enlil_Nick wrote: »

I have, however, met racist bastards whose favourite artists are 50 Cent, though.

Check out "Dave Chappelle - Black White Supremacist":D

DrumSteve wrote: »

Im by no means a racist ive got friends from many different cultures but i can see where some people would get the hump.

This, to me, sounds like someone saying "I'm not a racist, cos I've got friends who are n|ggers, ch|nks, and pak|es".

djpbarry wrote:

Depends on the context, and it depends on who's telling it.

Agreed. An Irish person telling a "Irish man, an English man, and a Scots man" joke would be different if a English man said it to get people to laugh at the Irish.

djpbarry wrote:

Well, that would be racist, because you would be generalising based on ethnicity.

And if you state that a lot the black people in Africe / the US / etc, are poor, than you're a racist.

djpbarry wrote:

See, I just don't understand it when people say that. Scarcely a day goes by when the word 'immigration' or 'immigrant' does not appear in a newspaper.

"If you think there are lots of immigrants coming in to theis country, you must be a racist!"

"If you think that immigration is ANYTHING but 100% ok, you must be racist."

"If you think that we should look after the poor on our street, before looking after a non-Irish person, you're a racist Nazi."

"If you discuss a way that an immigrant can integrate into our society, you're racist: as we must not stop them from bringing in their customs."

My point: mentioning the words "immigrant" and "immigration" is usually followed by "you're a racist". This is not a discussion, it's bo||ox. The above are examples I've seen people sprouting, and are not my own beliefs

djpbarry wrote:

Religious symbolism has no place in public buildings.

I agree on this one. No crosses, so jewellery, no headscarf's, or those thing the muslim women wear, covering them from head to toe.

djpbarry wrote:

Bernard Manning was a racist pig - Trev was just telling it like it is.

I don't know either of them, but to condemn one person for name-calling, but to condoning someone else for name calling the person they condemned reeks of double standards.

marcsignal

the_syco wrote: »

This, to me, sounds like someone saying "I'm not a racist, cos I've got friends who are n|ggers, ch|nks, and pak|es".

That old line "I'm not a racist, cos I've got friends who are n|ggers, ch|nks, and pak|es" dosen't wash with me, I really don't think a true Racist would even entertain the idea of having any friends from another ethnic group.

tbh, it's more like the kind of line RAR would come out with, trying desperately in their endless quest, to find a racist in everyone.

I've plenty of ethnic friends, but wouldn't be for a totally 'open door' policy on immigration, and some, but not all mind, of my ethnic friends feel the same.

ojewriej

djpbarry wrote: »

Let's not exaggerate.

Ok then. What do you think the figure is?

djpbarry wrote: »

See, I just don't understand it when people say that. Scarcely a day goes by when the word 'immigration' or 'immigrant' does not appear in a newspaper. And besides, these issues have been discussed at length on this very forum!

This exactly proves my point. People are talking, so it is an issue.
But people who can actually do something about it won't even try, because they don't wont to be branded a racist.

djpbarry wrote: »

He stopped because he couldn't find enough people to support his warped ideas.

So what are his warped ideas?

ojewriej

the_syco wrote: »

Racist!:p

No, it's ok, i'm a foreigner myself, i'm allowed.

the_syco

marcsignal wrote: »

That old line "I'm not a racist, cos I've got friends who are n|ggers, ch|nks, and pak|es" dosen't wash with me, I really don't think a true Racist would even entertain the idea of having any friends from another ethnic group.

I think you misunderstood me. I meant that I hate when someone says "I'm not a racist cos I've friends of other races", and but still talks like a racist.

marcsignal

the_syco wrote: »

I think you misunderstood me. I meant that I hate when someone says "I'm not a racist cos I've friends of other races", and but still talks like a racist.

ah, sorry, i did misunderstand, yep i've met a few people like that.

I've also had to explain to them, that a 'friend', in this context, would generally speaking, be someone you know, and maybe socialise with from time to time, as opposed to the chinese worker/manager bloke you know from regularlly going into eddie rockets, after spending all night drinking with your exclusively 'white' mates in the pub, if you understand ?

Having said all that, I didn't see anything in DrumSteve's post that would make me think he was a racist, or even had racist tendancies ?

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=aHh3ykPQEl4

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=m6qTyDFtLEU

Sorry, I just HAD to throw these in :-)

djpbarry

marcsignal wrote: »

But as an example, if your neighbour in an Apartment block was Muslim, I'd consider it just good manners, and having consideration for him/her by avoiding having loud, late night parties during Ramadam. In that case his race might be an issue, when plannng a party, but not necessarily a problem.

I think you're confusing race with religion here, but to be honest, I would not extend special treatment to anyone based on their customs. I treat everyone with the same respect, regardless of their background.

marcsignal wrote: »

I personally think, it's more likely, that many people disliked his 'West Brit' persona and his tendancy to come over as arrogant.

Well, first of all, he is British - it's not a persona. Secondly, his sole purpose is to fill column inches and stir up controversy. I have absolutely no problem discussing immigration, as long as it's done in a rational manner.

marcsignal wrote: »

if 'Brian Dobson' was to make a similar remark about Robert Mugabe, who IMO is also a Racist Pig, even in private circles, I believe he would be missing form the 6 one news pretty sharpish.

Yeah, you're probably right there. Then again, I wouldn't expect Brian Dobson to make derogatory comments about Bernard Manning either!

EF wrote: »

Not every immigrant is a legitimate asylum seeker, in fact very few are in Ireland

Not entirely sure what you're getting at here?

the_syco wrote: »

And if you state that a lot the black people in Africe / the US / etc, are poor, than you're a racist.

No, but if I were to say that all black people in America are badly educated, that would be a sweeping generalisation and it would, of course, be a racist statement.

the_syco wrote: »

My point: mentioning the words "immigrant" and "immigration" is usually followed by "you're a racist".

If you happen to be in the company of RAR, then yes, you might be accused of being racist, but who cares - they're extremists.

the_syco wrote: »

No crosses, so jewellery, no headscarf's, or those thing the muslim women wear, covering them from head to toe.

Well, you can't change the way people dress - that's their business. If someone wants to wear a scarf on their head, who am I (or anyone else for that matter) to tell them they can't do that?

the_syco wrote: »

I don't know either of them, but to condemn one person for name-calling, but to condoning someone else for name calling the person they condemned reeks of double standards.

I think accusing Bernard Manning of "name-calling" is being rather generous!

ojewriej wrote: »

Ok then. What do you think the figure is?

The population in 1996 was about 3.6 million, of which about 93% were Irish-born. In 2006, the population was about 4.2 million, of which about 85% were Irish-born. That's an increase in non-Irish born residents of about 380,000.

ojewriej wrote: »

But people who can actually do something about it won't even try, because they don't wont to be branded a racist.

Well that depends. If someone announces on RTE that
2there are too many immigrants in Ireland"

ojewriej wrote: »

So what are his warped ideas?

Well, he has excused racism on the grounds that there are too many immigrants in the country:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/the-problem-isnt-racism-its-the-tidal-wave-of-immigrants-1071385.html

He has also advocated banning Muslims from Ireland, on more than one occasion:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/theres-nowhere-to-hide-in-this-new-world-of-war-1064593.html
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/forget-lilylivered-liberalism-time-to-take-stand-and-say-we-dont-want-muslim-immigrants-1038583.html

Anyway, I don’t want this turning into a Kevin Myers debate.

the_syco

djpbarry wrote:

the_syco wrote:

djpbarry wrote:

Religious symbolism has no place in public buildings.

I agree on this one. No crosses, so jewellery, no headscarf's, or those thing the muslim women wear, covering them from head to toe.

Well, you can't change the way people dress - that's their business. If someone wants to wear a scarf on their head, who am I (or anyone else for that matter) to tell them they can't do that?

And who are you (or anyone else for that matter) to tell them not to have religious symbolism in public buildings?

djpbarry

the_syco wrote: »

And who are you (or anyone else for that matter) to tell them not to have religious symbolism in public buildings?

Well, our state institutions are supposed to be secular. Take an Garda Síochána for example. I'm sure you recall the well-publicised case of the Sikh lad who was not allowed to wear his turban while on duty for the Gardaí as, apparently, an Garda Síochána is a secular organisation? Well, if I enter my local Garda Station, I am greeted by the Virgin Mary on one wall and a crucifix on the other. If the Gardaí are secular, as we have been told, then they should not be there.

Zambia

the_syco wrote: »

And if you state that a lot the black people in Africe / the US / etc, are poor, than you're a racist.


"If you think there are lots of immigrants coming in to theis country, you must be a racist!"

"If you think that immigration is ANYTHING but 100% ok, you must be racist."

"If you think that we should look after the poor on our street, before looking after a non-Irish person, you're a racist Nazi."

"If you discuss a way that an immigrant can integrate into our society, you're racist: as we must not stop them from bringing in their customs."

My point: mentioning the words "immigrant" and "immigration" is usually followed by "you're a racist". This is not a discussion, it's bo||ox. The above are examples I've seen people sprouting, and are not my own beliefs

I agree with all the piont's above and have pretty much accepted that I must be a little racist*. However I do believe in a mutual respect for everyone regardless of background.

However ask yourself this

if every country in the EEC was asked to take a vote on allowing uncontrolled migration from africa and asia to name two , would any country vote it in.

In my opinion no not one country would allow it , so I guess the whole EEC is racist as an entity.

* if its not a boolean expression

ParkRunner

Not entirely sure what you're getting at here?

What I meant really was that very few immigrants who apply for asylum in this country are granted refugee status, most of them are bogus, which in my opinion only adds to any negative opinion towards them. It is a huge cost to the State having to fund their accommodation during the asylum process and any subsequent legal proceedings taken against the State if a deportation order is made against them.

cabinteelytom

Accusations of racism have been a way of pouring suppressive fire on rational debate about serious issues for which our society has to pass legislation and devote resources ; and which may have long term consequences for the next and future generations. Some people didn't want that. They wanted decisions made on a basis of emotionalism, knee-jerk reactions, and generalisation from the anecdotal single case, to all cases of an arbitrarily chosen similar class.
If we have grown out of this, that is welcome maturity.

marcsignal

I was shocked, but not surprised, if you understand ? at the percentage of people who voted to change the citizenship loophole in, was it 2004 ? wasn't it 89% or something like that ? I can't remember exactly ?

I honestly believe, it was almost as if 'some' people voted, to close the loophole, as a reactionary backlash, against the PC minefield we are living in these days.

I also think it just shows, that people may say one thing in public, or on a forum like this one, but put them in a private polling booth, and they will say what they really think, deep down.

ojewriej

djpbarry wrote: »

The population in 1996 was about 3.6 million, of which about 93% were Irish-born. In 2006, the population was about 4.2 million, of which about 85% were Irish-born. That's an increase in non-Irish born residents of about 380,000.

That's the official figures - real ones are probably twice as high. But again, for arguments sake lets asume that 15% is a real figures. 15%, that's double in ten years. And trend seems to continue. Yoeu really can't see any problems with that?

djpbarry wrote: »

Well that depends. If someone announces on RTE that
2there are too many immigrants in Ireland"

Sorry, don't really get that point

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, he has excused racism on the grounds that there are too many immigrants in the country:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/the-problem-isnt-racism-its-the-tidal-wave-of-immigrants-1071385.html

Don't really see how he excuses racism here.

djpbarry wrote: »

He has also advocated banning Muslims from Ireland, on more than one occasion:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/theres-nowhere-to-hide-in-this-new-world-of-war-1064593.html
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/forget-lilylivered-liberalism-time-to-take-stand-and-say-we-dont-want-muslim-immigrants-1038583.html

Anyway, I don’t want this turning into a Kevin Myers debate.

Some people would say he makes good points here. But that's noit the point anyway - the point is that he at least tries to raise the issue, and basicaly he is being shunned for that. maybe about instead of branding him racist and ignoring him someone should answer his questions. Shouldn't be too hard if his ideas are so warped.

DrumSteve

marcsignal wrote: »

Having said all that, I didn't see anything in DrumSteve's post that would make me think he was a racist, or even had racist tendancies ?

Thanks man.

And i dont like the incinuation that i am a racist. Cos I ain't.

djpbarry

EF wrote: »

What I meant really was that very few immigrants who apply for asylum in this country are granted refugee status, most of them are bogus, which in my opinion only adds to any negative opinion towards them. It is a huge cost to the State having to fund their accommodation during the asylum process and any subsequent legal proceedings taken against the State if a deportation order is made against them.

Ok, first off let's make the distinction between immigrants and asylum seekers - two very different things.

Now, you are correct in saying that the asylum process is far too drawn out, which benefits neither the state nor the applicant. However, it should be pointed out that refugee status is sometimes granted on appeal.

marcsignal wrote: »

I was shocked, but not surprised, if you understand ? at the percentage of people who voted to change the citizenship loophole in, was it 2004 ? wasn't it 89% or something like that ? I can't remember exactly ?

I was very surprised at that result myself, but I think it just reflects the cross-section of the population who voted? Just a thought. I'm not sure what the turn-out was.

ojewriej wrote: »

That's the official figures - real ones are probably twice as high. But again, for arguments sake lets asume that 15% is a real figures. 15%, that's double in ten years. And trend seems to continue.

Now, this is exactly the sort of irrational, Myers-esque type arguments I'm talking about. Why are the real figures for the number of foreign nationals living here likely to be twice as high? Based on what? Why is it that the census got the number of Irish people spot-on but was way off when it comes to non-Irish? I'm not saying the census is perfect, but surely, any flaws in the system would be reflected across all results? 15% seems like a reasonable figure to me. Granted, in some areas it will be higher (where I live for example) but in others it will be lower.

Why would the trend continue? The economy is slowing, less (full-time) jobs are being created and rent is going up. Would you emigrate to a country if you couldn't get a job or afford somewhere to live? Of course you wouldn't, you go somewhere with better prospects. Migration is, for the most part, self-regulating. If this was not the case, then tens of thousands of Irish people would still be emigrating to the UK and the US. This of course is not the case; in fact, the opposite is true.

ojewriej wrote:

But people who can actually do something about it won't even try, because they don't wont to be branded a racist.

Well, I'm not exactly sure who these "people" are (I'm going to assume you mean TD's) and I'm not sure what you mean by "do something about it"?

ojewriej wrote: »

Don't really see how he excuses racism here.

Last paragraph:

Whether Irish people are "racist" is irrelevant

No, it is not irrelevant. Racism is inexcusable and should not be ignored or overlooked, as is the case here.

ojewriej wrote: »

Some people would say he makes good points here. But that's noit the point anyway - the point is that he at least tries to raise the issue, and basicaly he is being shunned for that.

What "issue" would this be? The fact that he's an Islamophobe?

How is he being shunned?!? He has a column in the Independent and he was on the Late, Late Show!!! That's far more exposure than the average citizen!

ojewriej wrote: »

maybe about instead of branding him racist and ignoring him someone should answer his questions. Shouldn't be too hard if his ideas are so warped.

What questions? He doesn't ask any (rhetorical questions aside). Everything is a definitive statement, based on observations in the "world according to Myers":

time to take stand and say we don't want Muslim immigrants

Who's "we"? Speak for yourself, mate.

Comparable movements of Christians into Muslim societies are not permitted

Nonsense. Pakistan has a far larger number of Christians (2.57 million, or 1.6% of the population) than Ireland has Muslims (about 0.8% of the population).

I could go on, but I'm going off-topic. The point is that there is little point in debating anything with anyone whose arguments are devoid of facts, as is the case with Myers.

purple'n'gold

marcsignal wrote: »

I was shocked, but not surprised, if you understand ? at the percentage of people who voted to change the citizenship loophole in, was it 2004 ? wasn't it 89% or something like that ? I can't remember exactly ?

I honestly believe, it was almost as if 'some' people voted, to close the loophole, as a reactionary backlash, against the PC minefield we are living in these days.

I also think it just shows, that people may say one thing in public, or on a forum like this one, but put them in a private polling booth, and they will say what they really think, deep down.

That’s what referenda are for; using the secrecy of the ballot box so people can say what they feel deep down. If people feel strongly enough about something they will vote for or against it. The 79.17% for and 20.83% against reflected what the electorate wanted. As in all referenda and elections you can only go by what the people who voted wanted. To try and imagine what the people who didn’t vote wanted is just playing imagination politics, i.e. you can come up with what ever result suits you. Below is a link to the actual result.
http://electionsireland.org/results/referendum/refresult.cfm?ref=2004R

brianthebard

Just on the "whether we should take muslim immigrants or not" issue, Muslims are the third largest ethnic group in the country now, (after chinese and presumably Irish), and there are more muslims than travellers. They have been migrating to this country for a lot longer than poles or other europeans (there has been a mosque in Mayo since the 70s-I can't remember the town but there's a sizeable muslim community-can try and find out if needs be) and despite this we haven't had any major problems with muslims that I can see? Also, anyone can convert to islam, christian, jewish or whatever.

marcsignal

purplengold wrote: »

Below is a link to the actual result.
http://electionsireland.org/results/referendum/refresult.cfm?ref=2004R

Thanks for that link purple'n'gold, I didn't know where to look for one at time of posting. It sure makes interesting reading.

EamonnKeane

brianthebard wrote: »

Muslims are the third largest ethnic group in the country now, (after chinese and presumably Irish).

Islam is not a race, it's a religion. Plus there are more British than Chinese.

EamonnKeane

Overuse of Capital Letters and Line Spaces = ANNOYING

Recitation Of one's Own Opinion as though It Were Catechism = ANNOYING

marcsignal

Bumping = Annoying

Signatures longer than the Getysburg Address = Annoying

Posting without reading the whole thread = Annoying

EamonnKeane wrote: »

Overuse of Capital Letters

Recitation Of one's Own Opinion as though It Were Catechism

capital letters ?? Read your own sentence please :rolleyes:

Of, Own, Opinion, It, Were.... just in case you missed it yourself

The Kettle calling the Pot "Black Arse" = Not Racist

Should I continue ??

ojewriej

First of all, we are really repeating our discussion from Fingerprinting here, basically repeating the same arguments, so if you don't mind I'll just address Kevin Myers issue.

I don't think Kevin Myers is right about everything. I often disagree with him. And I admit that sometimes (more often than he should) he really gets his facts wrong. But i don't think he deserves to be ignored

djpbarry wrote: »

No, it is not irrelevant. Racism is inexcusable and should not be ignored or overlooked, as is the case here.

By quoting just one sentence you are missing the point of the whole article. What he is trying to say is that instead of dealing with the immigration issue as a whole, we focus on one symptom - racism. I completely agree with it.

djpbarry wrote: »

What "issue" would this be? The fact that he's an Islamophobe?

What questions? He doesn't ask any (rhetorical questions aside). Everything is a definitive statement, based on observations in the "world according to Myers":

I admit, he goes too far at times. But his observations are designed to make people think and ask questions. For example:

And terrifyingly, there is no large-scale Islamic rejection of the murderous projects of their co-religionists in Britain; no mass-rallies of Muslims denouncing Islamicism; no call from within Muslim society for Muslims to join the army or police; and no unconditional and all-embracing campaign to extirpate murderous fundamentalism from within British Muslim society. Even "liberal" Muslims blame British foreign policy for Islamic terrorism in Britain, while remaining silent about the unspeakable Muslim-on-Muslim atrocities in Iraq.

This is something I was thinking about myself, and I think more people should be.

djpbarry wrote: »

How is he being shunned?!? He has a column in the Independent and he was on the Late, Late Show!!! That's far more exposure than the average citizen!

I haven't seen this Late Late show, but from what i heard he wasn't exactly being treated fairly. Basically he was invited as a token bad guy and was treated like a redneck xenophob.

djpbarry wrote: »

Nonsense. Pakistan has a far larger number of Christians (2.57 million, or 1.6% of the population) than Ireland has Muslims (about 0.8% of the population).

I could go on, but I'm going off-topic. The point is that there is little point in debating anything with anyone whose arguments are devoid of facts, as is the case with Myers.

Ok, this figure is wrong. But i doesn't matter. The point here is that we go out of our way to accommodate Muslim immigrants, in the Muslim countries they don't really. I'm sure we all heard what happened in Sudan in last few days for instance.

djpbarry

ojewriej wrote: »

What he is trying to say is that instead of dealing with the immigration issue as a whole, we focus on one symptom - racism.

So, racism doesn't exist unless you bring together people of different races?

Racism is not a symptom of anything. Racism is a disgusting blight on any society and should be dealt with severely. Overlooking it is equally disgusting, in my opinion.

ojewriej wrote: »

But his observations are designed to make people think and ask questions.

No, his ill-informed "observations" are designed to instil xenophobia.

ojewriej wrote: »

no mass-rallies of Muslims denouncing Islamicism

Stupid statement. So, if a group does not organise a mass-rally denouncing something, then, by default, that means they support it?

ojewriej wrote: »

no call from within Muslim society for Muslims to join the army or police

Why the hell should they?!? People are entitled to pursue whatever career they want.

ojewriej wrote: »

I haven't seen this Late Late show, but from what i heard he wasn't exactly being treated fairly. Basically he was invited as a token bad guy and was treated like a redneck xenophob.

Probably because he is a xenophobe. Judge for yourself:
http://www.rte.ie/tv/latelate/20070928.html

ojewriej wrote: »

Ok, this figure is wrong. But i doesn't matter.

Of course it matters. How can you have a rational debate about anything if you're not prepared to deal in facts? You say, "at least Myers is raising the issue of immigration". I say, he is a sensationalist who researches virtually nothing (as far as I can tell) and should be writing for the Daily Mail (if even they will have him). He constantly calls for public debate on immigration; so, debate it Kevin.

ojewriej wrote: »

The point here is that we go out of our way to accommodate Muslim immigrants

How exactly?

ojewriej wrote: »

I'm sure we all heard what happened in Sudan in last few days for instance.

Right, so one incident in one particular country should be used to judge all other countries of the same religion? Well, that makes life easy for people like Myers, doesn't it? Saves them having to do all that research into facts and such.