british teacher names teddy after prophet - Threads Merged

moe_sizlak

im sure many in here hee have heard the story in the news where a british teacher in sudan has been imprisioned for naming a teddy bear she was using to teach pupils in a school after the prophet
if convicted , she faces 50 lashes or 6 months in prison

is this female teacher likely to be convicted and if so would this be in keeping with sharia law

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

surely this should be in the Sudan forum....

Hobbes

C_Breeze is on a temp ban. While the OP has a valid question, show some respect while in the forum.

As for the OP, It is my understanding you can't name idols after the prophet and this would fall under that. The punishment in this case is well out of order though. I'm curious why the children haven't been punished as well, as they took part in the naming.

r3nu4l

Hobbes wrote: »

C_Breeze is on a temp ban. While the OP has a valid question, show some respect while in the forum.

As for the OP, It is my understanding you can't name idols after the prophet and this would fall under that. The punishment in this case is well out of order though. I'm curious why the children haven't been punished as well, as they took part in the naming.

Are children of a certain age given leniency in Islam? Would the teacher not be seen as a corrupting influence? After all, I'm sure children are taught to respect their teachers...that would be my view.

Also, I have to say that while it all seems a bit OTT I really feel that this lady should have known better! Surely anyone teaching in a school where Islam is the predominant religion would have been aware of this? While I often think Sharia law and associated punishments are absurd I find it hard to feel sympathy for this woman.

On the other hand it seems perfectly acceptable to give the 'name' Mohammed to a person so surely the 'name' Mohammed is okay for a bear, rather than saying that this bear is a representation and idol of the great prophet 'Mohammed'.

I think I'm supposed to say 'Peace be upon him' or similar when I use the name of the Prophet...is this correct?

InFront

Anyone unfamiliar with the story can read it here

is this female teacher likely to be convicted and if so would this be in keeping with sharia law

I don't know if she is likely to be convicted or not, hopefully not. A Punishment would be prescribed if one were genuinely setting out to deface Islam or the Prophet Muhammad, Peace Be Upon Him, but reading this story that seems like an absurd accusation.

Personally I cannot understand why on Earth anyone would manipulate this situation to accuse this teacher of disrespect.
In any country, but particularly in places like Sudan, teddy bears are treasured and loved objects for little children, and in that light the name Muhammad seems somehow very appropriate.

Do any of us really think that this would anger the Prophet?

r3nu4l wrote: »

I think I'm supposed to say 'Peace be upon him' or similar when I use the name of the Prophet...is this correct?

As Muslims yes we do this, but of course there's absolutely no obligation on you to do so and I am sure that nobody will be offended that you don't:)

r3nu4l

InFront wrote: »

As Muslims yes we do this, but of course there's absolutely no obligation on you to do so and I am sure that nobody will be offended that you don't:)

Thanks InFront, oh, and from reading your post I think I should brush up on my spelling too

wes

The whole thing is really dumb. It really seems like Sudan is giving the rest of the world the middle finger.

donaghs

wes wrote: »

The whole thing is really dumb. It really seems like Sudan is giving the rest of the world the middle finger.

With Darfur (and similar incidents that preceded it) they don't seem too bothered by world opinion.

mmalaka

She should not be convicted, and I think I red in an Arabic website that one of the children defend her by saying that he selected the name

It is another small mistake that the media would use it to give a wrong idea about Islam

wes

mmalaka wrote: »

It is another small mistake that the media would use it to give a wrong idea about Islam

I wouldn't blame the media on this one. The finger of blame should be pointed squarely on the Sudanese government, who should have released this Woman a long time ago and who should change the law if this is the kind of rubbish that happens.

mmalaka

wes wrote: »

I wouldn't blame the media on this one. The finger of blame should be pointed squarely on the Sudanese government, who should have released this Woman a long time ago and who should change the law if this is the kind of rubbish that happens.

I do not think that they have this in the law

but yes it is the Sudanese government mistake

deman

mmalaka wrote: »

It is another small mistake that the media would use it to give a wrong idea about Islam

How can you blame the media for this? How can the teacher even be blamed? InFront spoke a lot of sense in what he said. It's a ridiculous situation where an innocent child gave an innocent name to an innocent teddy bear. Cassius Clay even named himself Muhammad. Maybe I'm just showing my ignorance of the religion here so sorry if I sound dumb

mmalaka

deman wrote: »

How can you blame the media for this? How can the teacher even be blamed?

I am not blaming the Media

I clearly said it is the Sudanese government mistake

InFront

r3nu4l wrote: »

I should brush up on my spelling too

Ah well If you mean the the name of the Prophet Muhammad, Peace Be Upon Him, not to worry - there are any number of correct ways of spelling it, there isn't exactly one "correct" spelling-translation into English letters.

In any case, this isn't the spell czech forum eh:)

Cassius Clay even named himself Muhammad.

Yes, it's one of the most common names of young Muslim boys, I have an Uncle and a brother named Muhammad!
I have to say though, I do think that naming icons in the name or the resemblance of the Prophet Muhammad, Peace Be Upon Him, either for the purposes of adoration or mockery, is wrong, and this is a genuine teaching of Islam.
But anyone can see that's not what this teacher set out to do, hopefully those involved in hearing her case show a bit of common sense about it.

Just read in the news as well that the school has also been shut down until the new year when things cool over, I think those kids have suffered enough being embroiled in this anger of adults without having their education hindered. We should remember that Muhammad, Peace Be Upon Him, was a man of enormous compassion for, and love toward, children, and this is well documented in various hadith,

PDN

I think the really sad thing is that Sudan needs volunteer teachers. After this incident I wouldn't anticipate too many volunteers answering the call - so kids all over Sudan are going to lose out yet again.

SkepticOne

She has been sentenced to 15 days in prison. She has been spared the lash.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7114400,00.html

Clerics in Sudan had called for the full measure of the law to be applied which would have involved up to 40 lashes.

MarkColeman

Anyone who is describing this affair as anything other than a catastrophe conjured up by religious lunatics need to have their heads examined.

Cuddly toy + Schoolteacher + innocent children + Religious clerics = 40 lashes & 6 months in prison? Sorry but that equation does not add up, the error is the religious clerics & the 40 lashes and jail part. Unbelievable.

InFront wrote: »

I have to say though, I do think that naming icons in the name or the resemblance of the Prophet Muhammad, Peace Be Upon Him, either for the purposes of adoration or mockery, is wrong, and this is a genuine teaching of Islam.
But anyone can see that's not what this teacher set out to do, hopefully those involved in hearing her case show a bit of common sense about it.

If the poor woman had been naming the toy muhammad for mockery, do you think the correct course of action would then have been to improsen her and give her 40 lashes?

gillyfromlyre

Its one thing after another isn't it, most of these type cases don't even get covered by the media, the fact she's english is the only reason we are hearing about this one, its only tip of the iceberg stuff

the_syco

InFront wrote: »

Do any of us really think that this would anger the Prophet?

She a British.

She a Woman.

I think that covers why the clerics want her whipped. It doesn't offend the dude, but like the f**kers over here, I'd say th clerics like showing that they have power, when they can.

Boston

When two cultures are at war, this is exactly the type of thing you get. The traditionalist Islamic leadership in Sudan are simply fearful of western values penetrating into the next generation. They're probably delighted at the idea that this will lower the number of foreign teachers in Sudan.

Suff

I find this ridiculous. If the teacher intentions were to insult the prophet (PBUH) then I would think a large fine and deportation should be adequate.

I think since the Danish Cartoons every one is getting "High" seeing everything as a potential insult.

Sadly...yet again the world just sees us (Muslims) as backward, unfriendly people.

Boston

The thing she is been accused of here is allowing the children to name the teddy, no one is even bothering to suggest that it was her idea, so basically she's been punished for not stopping the children

is_that_so

One of the elements of teachers working abroad is having information on cultural sensitivity. I think the sentence was wrong but equally the organisation who employed her should have highlighted the potential cultural pitfalls.

MarkColeman

Suff wrote: »

I find this ridiculous. If the teacher intentions were to insult the prophet (PBUH) then I would think a large fine and deportation should be adequate.

I think since the Danish Cartoons every one is getting "High" seeing everything as a potential insult.

Sadly...yet again the world just sees us (Muslims) as backward, unfriendly people.

Large fine and deportation? I find even that ridiculous. Getting the sack would be more than enough punishment. In fact getting a stern warning from her bosses in the school would be enough punishment.

I see you mention the cartoons, just out of interest what is your opinion on those? Do you think the cartoonist deserves imprisonment?

SubjectSean

MarkColeman wrote: »

Large fine and deportation? I find even that ridiculous. Getting the sack would be more than enough punishment. In fact getting a stern warning from her bosses in the school would be enough punishment.

I would whip her for being so dumb. she kind of deserves it. If you are dumb and unthinking, stay home. Sudan have done much worse things than bang up a European lady up for a few days IMO

This was a Christian-run School AFAIK. Bet she wouldn't have called the toy Jesus.

spank_inferno

Naming the teddy 'Jesus' would also have been insulting to muslims.
Jesus or Isa being one of the 5 main prophets of Islam.

Evangelion

If it had been a Christian School and shenamed it Jesus (which is an unequal comparison since he was a divine being), you'd never hear a word about it.

I heard alot about this cartoon, but never saw it. What did it depict, I want to be able to see the comparson.

In all fairness, you only have to watch Family Guy to see cartoon insulting religions...but for the most part we all just see the funny side. I don't see the big deal, in the case of the bear, the kids weren't worshiping it, so it wasn't an "idol"

Hivemind187

is_that_so wrote: »

One of the elements of teachers working abroad is having information on cultural sensitivity. I think the sentence was wrong but equally the organisation who employed her should have highlighted the potential cultural pitfalls.

Its ... a ... teddy! It's not a craven image. Its not a dipictation. Its not a drawing or an idol. Its a teddy, that the children named. Mulsim children.

Does anyone else get the impression that an example is being made here?

Suff

MarkColeman wrote: »

Getting the sack would be more than enough punishment. In fact getting a stern warning from her bosses in the school would be enough punishment.

Maybe she got a warning, we don't know however I do find getting sacked is better than prison!

I see you mention the cartoons, just out of interest what is your opinion on those? Do you think the cartoonist deserves imprisonment?

I'm not going to go through that topic again since we've already had discussed a number of them here but will just answer this: Yes, they do deserve punishment if their intentions were to insult.

Suff

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Its ... a ... teddy! It's not a craven image. Its not a dipictation. Its not a drawing or an idol. Its a teddy, that the children named. Mulsim children.
Does anyone else get the impression that an example is being made here?

I'm sure every one does, but sadly the sudanese authorities dont!

I don't think her intentions were to insult the Prophet (PBUH)

Hivemind187

Hundreds of people are marching and demanding that the teacher in question be shot.

Hobbes

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Hundreds of people are marching and demanding that the teacher in question be shot.

F'ing idiots.

She's getting 15 days in jail (I suspect backdated) and deported. TBH it would probably be safer for her to leave the country.

SubjectSean

Evangelion wrote: »

If it had been a Christian School and shenamed it Jesus (which is an unequal comparison since he was a divine being), you'd never hear a word about it.

You are wrong. Jesus was just a man no more divine than any of us, it says so quite clearly in Acts. My point is that she didn't call it Jesus. She was dumb enough to name it Mohammed. I can imagine her laughing about it in the Christian staff-room.

Latchy

SubjectSean wrote: »

You are wrong. Jesus was just a man no more divine than any of us, it says so quite clearly in Acts. My point is that she didn't call it Jesus. She was dumb enough to name it Mohammed. I can imagine her laughing about it in the Christian staff-room.

It wasn't she who named it Mohammed ,it was a child in her class .Think back a dcade or so ago when a certin type of jam had to have the gollywog removed from it's label because of racial sterotyping .

SubjectSean

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Hundreds of people are marching and demanding that the teacher in question be shot.

Walk down Falls road shouting "f**k the pope" we'll see how long you last

Latchy

SubjectSean wrote: »

You are wrong. Jesus was just a man no more divine than any of us, it says so quite clearly in Acts. My point is that she didn't call it Jesus. She was dumb enough to name it Mohammed. I can imagine her laughing about it in the Christian staff-room.

She didint call it Mohammed ,it was a child in her class.Think back a few decades in uk when a jam label with a picture of a gollywog was removed because of fears of racial stereotyping.

SubjectSean

latchyco wrote: »

It wasn't she who named it Mohammed ,it was a child in her class .Think back a dcade or so ago when a certin type of jam had to have the gollywog removed from it's label because of racial sterotyping .

So the kids were running this class? I really don't think so. Her little Christian joke has backfired on her. What has an offensive label got to do with anything in this case? Anyhow what's a gollywog? Think about it. Do you know where the term wog comes from?

Rev Hellfire

Excellent trolling there seanie.

Zirconia

SubjectSean wrote: »

Walk down Falls road shouting "f**k the pope" we'll see how long you last

Well, that's a very mature and relevant statment, isn't it? I didn't think she was going around the school shouting f**k Mohammed last time I checked.

On the other hand, whatever might have happend if you walked down the Falls road shouting that, you wouldn't have been arrested thrown in prison and possibly tortured by the governing authorities for that statement - theres the important difference!

Demonique

A gollywog is one of those black stuffed dolls with red cheeks, they are an ugly representation of black people, I never liked them even before I knew what they were supposed to be, I <censored!>ing hate their garish red cheeks, those paintings and dolls of ugly white kids with rosy cheeks are even worse. Rosy cheeks just look ugly, if I saw someone with red cheeks I'd think they're either an alco or have a skin condition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gollywog

King John V

I suppose in all fairness she did break the rules which were stated clearly and categorically under article 125 of Sudanese Code of Law. Rules are rules afterall. :rolleyes:

Latchy

Quote =SubjectSean;54546477]So the kids were running this class? I really don't think so. Her little Christian joke has backfired on her. What has an offensive label got to do with anything in this case? Anyhow what's a gollywog? Think about it. Do you know where the term wog comes from?

Jezz ,give the womon some credit , she may not have being familiar with everything in the muslim rule book about what is and what is not offensive , but cant see were she is going to risk doing such a thing as she is supposed to have done . I used the offensive labe to show that you dont have to be thousends of miles away in a muslim country to be controversial in these matters. Gollwog is a black doll like a minstrel . The term wog as far as i am aware originally refers to the Aboriginal people and is an offensive term .

SubjectSean

Zirconia wrote: »

Well, that's a very mature and relevant statment, isn't it? I didn't think she was going around the school shouting f**k Mohammed last time I checked.

On the other hand, whatever might have happend if you walked down the Falls road shouting that, you wouldn't have been arrested thrown in prison and possibly tortured by the governing authorities for that statement - theres the important difference!

She might as well have been. Just because you can't see this only shows me you haven't the slightest clue about Sudan.

The post I replied to wasn't talking about the "governing authorities" it was talking about a mob baying for blood. I was merely pointing out that it would be relatively easy to get a mob baying for blood in our own 'civilised' nation

SubjectSean

latchyco wrote: »

Jezz ,give the womon some credit , she may not have being familiar with everything in the muslim rule book about what is and what is not offensive , but cant see were she is going to risk doing such a thing as she is supposed to have done . I used the offensive labe to show that you dont have to be thousends of miles away in a muslim country to be controversial in these matters. Gollwog is a black doll like a minstrel . The term wog as far as i am aware originally refers to the Aboriginal people and is an offensive term .

I don't give her any credit. How could she possibly be in Sudan and not know that this was offensive. However she didn't think she was risking anything, she is very dumb. Don't get me wrong here I'm no fan of Sudan but I've been in Africa and some of the christian mission schools really p**s me off the way they go about undermining other peoples cultures as if they had a right.

According to that online concoction of an encyclopedia
"the term "golliwogg" was used both as a reference to the children's toy and as a generic, racist term for blacks. In Britain and its colonies, "golliwogg" perhaps became "wog" a racial slur applied to dark-skinned peoples worldwide, including Africans, Italians and other Mediterranean people, Native Americans, Middle Easterners, Hispanics, Aborigines, and Indians"

MarkColeman

SubjectSean wrote: »

I don't give her any credit. How could she possibly be in Sudan and not know that this was offensive. However she didn't think she was risking anything, she is very dumb. Don't get me wrong here I'm no fan of Sudan but I've been in Africa and some of the christian mission schools really p**s me off the way they go about undermining other peoples cultures as if they had a right.

Maybe she didnt realise it was offensive because she's from a much more civilized country where people dont go on a caveman like witchhunt because their god was insulted. Also you referred to it as a christian joke? Are you really dumb enough to think the reason the toy was named mohammed was because she was a christian and she wanted to stick it to the muslims?

I'm certainly not sticking up for any christian mission schools, but are you a muslim? You cannot be a muslim and keep a straight face when talking about people undermining other peoples cultures.

MarkColeman

I'm not going to go through that topic again since we've already had discussed a number of them here but will just answer this: Yes, they do deserve punishment if their intentions were to insult.

Ok well i gotta disagree with you on that point. But if thats your opinion, then surely all the cartoonists in the middle east who have been printing vicious anti semetic cartoons for years would then also deserve punishment?

SubjectSean

MarkColeman wrote: »

Maybe she didnt realise it was offensive because she's from a much more civilized country where people dont go on a caveman like witchhunt because their god was insulted. Also you referred to it as a christian joke? Are you really dumb enough to think the reason the toy was named mohammed was because she was a christian and she wanted to stick it to the muslims?

I'm certainly not sticking up for any christian mission schools, but are you a muslim? You cannot be a muslim and keep a straight face when talking about people undermining other peoples cultures.

No I'm not a muslim I'm a christian but not like the all the ones on the post-Nicean buzz. Anyhow religion has got nothing to do with it. This is all about culture and the bottom line is that you don't go imparting offensive crap to other peoples children in countries where you can get the lash for it. It's really dumb like. She got off lightly for her ignorance. Sheer unthinking ignorance. You seem to think African countries should be what you call 'civilized'. You yourself are the lack of food and shelter and 48 hours away from being what you call 'civilised'. Get real. Take a look at the world. If you want everybody to behave like the bored and comfortably numb Europeans and Americans et al then you must share out all the good things so that everybody can become bored and comfortably numb. It's no use complaining that a people are uncivilised whilst half the planet is starving. You should catch them on a better day IMHO. How do 'muslims' undermine other peoples cultures please tell?

jonny72

SubjectSean wrote: »

You are wrong. Jesus was just a man no more divine than any of us, it says so quite clearly in Acts. My point is that she didn't call it Jesus. She was dumb enough to name it Mohammed. I can imagine her laughing about it in the Christian staff-room.

Is Jesus a common Christian name? no, but in Spain it is, so if she was in Spain the class voting to call the teddy bear Jesus would have gone by unnoticed. People are marching in Sudan demanding she be thrown in jail for longer or worse. These are grown human beings reacting over some children naming a teddy bear. There is no defense for this kind of reaction, none.

MarkColeman

SubjectSean wrote: »

No I'm not a muslim I'm a christian but not like the all the ones on the post-Nicean buzz. Anyhow religion has got nothing to do with it. This is all about culture and the bottom line is that you don't go imparting offensive crap to other peoples children in countries where you can get the lash for it. It's really dumb like. She got off lightly for her ignorance. Sheer unthinking ignorance. You seem to think African countries should be what you call 'civilized'. You yourself are the lack of food and shelter and 48 hours away from being what you call 'civilised'. Get real. Take a look at the world. If you want everybody to behave like the bored and comfortably numb Europeans and Americans et al then you must share out all the good things so that everybody can become bored and comfortably numb. It's no use complaining that a people are uncivilised whilst half the planet is starving. You should catch them on a better day IMHO. How do 'muslims' undermine other peoples cultures please tell?

I'm not talking about the people who have no food or shelter, im talking about the primitive clerics who impart their lunacy on those very poor people. You think the nuts who ordered she be arrested and jailed have no food or shelter? Tell me, is islamic culture really so weak that it jails a person for naming (perhaps naeivly) an ickle teddy bear after a prophet?

Its laughable that you said religion has nothing to do with it. Please explain how a woman being jailed for naming a teddy bear after a religious prophet has nothing to do with religion?

Playboy

I dont think there is any justification in Islam for any kind of punishment for this woman. As far as i know 'intention' is a very important part of Islamic law. This was an honest mistake and Mohamed who showed himself in many hadith to be a fair and just judge would never have punished this woman nor wanted her punished in shape or form.

Whats happening in Sudan is similar to what happened over the cartoons. You have specific interest groups whipping anger and organizing protests in order to further their own political agenda against the west. The majority of Muslims in Sudan and the rest of the world think that this whole situation is just as ridiculous as anyone in the west. The Sudanese government handled the whole situation very badly and gave these hardline and extremist groups a platform on the world stage. Again we are going to see people in the west become further entrenched in unfair and negative stereotypes of Muslims based on the actions of a few extremists who are given much too air time in the western media. It's all really a sad affair and I feel sorry for Muslims everywhere. I do think though that the moderates in Islam should shout louder and try to find a platform condemning this sort of thing .. but I understand this isnt easy because the media also have their own political agenda.

And Sean .. relax for god sake. Really what are you on about? This woman is an innocent victim of a simple misjudgement which could happen to anyone. She doesnt deserve to be punished by anyone for her actions and if you think she does then quite frankly you should take an IQ test. And what kind of Christian are you if you dont believe Jesus is divine? Post Nicean is a hell of a long time ago. Are you some kind of Gnostic?

Zirconia

SubjectSean wrote: »

She might as well have been.

But she wasn't! And even if she were to do this there shouldn't be beatings or prison sentences as a result.

Just because you can't see this only shows me you haven't the slightest clue about Sudan.

Just because it's their culture dosent make their behaviour acceptable. For some reason, you seem to think it is from your posts so far? I respect other cultures only as long as they behave in a fair reasonable and humane manner. In some cultures, it is okay to beat or even kill your wife apparently, stone people to death, cut of their hands etc. These societies deserve no respect whatsoever, and we shouldn't touch their likes of them with a barge pole, and this includes those who's government or judicial system have the power or inclination to put someone in prison or beat them over a difference in belief as in this case

The post I replied to wasn't talking about the "governing authorities" it was talking about a mob baying for blood. I was merely pointing out that it would be relatively easy to get a mob baying for blood in our own 'civilised' nation

Well the point I was making is not only is the angry mob of morons out to get her, but she also has the government/judicial after her. If she was to over the line in the situation you presented here (which is a line that is orders of magnitude past what she did), maybe she'd provoke a mob reaction (only maybe...), but she'd be protected by the authorities

As others have pointed out, she didn't actually do anything herself but to me that is beside the point. If for some strange reason, she decided to take it upon herself to insult Islam, the worst that should have happened, if Islam was as civilized as it seems to make itself out to be, would be that she should be told that the authorities strongly disapproved of her behaviour. Full stop. Perhaps she should have lost her job (if the school she was working for was Islamic), and she might be advised to leave the country if the authorities felt that she was endangered by elements in the general population, and they should have in such a case provided protection to her until she could leave.

But as we can see, they don't behave like this, and they don't deserve any respect because of this.