Is an MBS worth it?

breadmonkey

Just wondering. A 1 year full time MBS (Master of Business Studies) course in Smurfit caught my eye yesterday but I don't really know how recognised something like this is.

AARRRGH

I know a guy who did it and regrets it as it's full of "students with no experience" according to him. He wishes he had done a MBA instead.

justfortherecor

MSc in a more specific field would be better if you're just out of an undergrad.

MBA is the way to go if you have a few years work experience under your belt and are eyeing a senior management position or an associate position in an IB or Mgmt Consultancy.

MBA is a big commitment financially but really pays dividends in your future career.
Personally, i'd try applications to the major US business schools and maybe INSEAD, Said, Judge and Cranfield etc, in Europe before applying to Smurfit. The contacts you can potentially make there would be worth the price of admission alone.

daveirl

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breadmonkey

dublindude wrote: »

I know a guy who did it and regrets it as it's full of "students with no experience" according to him.

Yeah that would be me alright.

justfortherecor wrote: »

MSc in a more specific field would be better if you're just out of an undergrad.

I'll have just finished my degree (Civil Eng.) but I'm leaning more and more towards a career in another discipline so I don't really want to do something that's too specific. (The course I was looking at was Project Management).

philtaylor

Yeah to be honest, I wouldn't bother my hole with the MBS. The biggest waste of 13000 euro you can get . I wouldn't even give it the credit of a watered down MBA to be honest. Its complete rubbish full of commerce and arts no hopers straight out of college.

As for the Smurfit MBA, wouldn't be surprised if it falls right out of the Top 100 MBA's (FT ranking, this is the one that matters) this year. They are strugglying to fill it at the moment and are even given the things away in papers ffs.

If you look up the FT from about 24 months back , the Dean talks about expanding the programme to 81 full timers or something like that. This year and last year they can barely get close to 40 doing it. The excuse of course is there focusing on quality not quantity. Believe that I will tell you another?

In summary dont go for an MBS , save up for a proper MBA and do it in the UK.

AARRRGH

philtaylor wrote: »

The biggest waste of 13000 euro you can get

Wow, that's pretty steep...

Does employers rate MBS's? I'm not sure if they do.

philtaylor

honestly its true, your going to need an mba in the long run as the MBS is worth zero by employers. Even the graduates who do it dont get any extra benefits in salary. Its a complete joke.

Your better of saving up the cash and spenting the 30000 euro and doing it in the UK. Sure you can even do an executive one and stay in your job. Manchester, Warwick, Cranfield are all good value and rank in the top 20-30's in the world as wheres as in Ireland you can get Trinity who ranked 70 and Smurfit 98.

The LBS is ranked 5 in the world but entry alone is near 60000 euro plus is full till 2010? See this crowd can do quality and quantity!

And before anyone defends Trinity MBA , if you look at the rankings and their profiles you will realise they have one of the highest average wages because they took on two certain canditates over a short period who both own very successful companies and who have altered the average earnings per candiate in the MBA programme hugely. This is based on their earnings 2-3 years out of the MBA programme and is based purely on what the individual canditate actually wants to fill in on the MBA form.

Ie.. If one persons earns 1.5 million euro a year and 5 other candiates earn 100000 euro a year . You get an average of 333000 euro which equates to a very high dollar rate. This is a fictional example before anyone pulls me up on it.

Thus on their average can not be sustained and therefore there ranking will also ultimately begin to fall unless it keeps static with decrease in dollar exchange rate.

justfortherecor

dublindude wrote: »

Wow, that's pretty steep...

Does employers rate MBS's? I'm not sure if they do.

Not too sure about that.
In filling out a load of application forms for banks last year, I think only 1 or 2 had it in their drop-down lists for qualifications.

Honestly, I think at masters level you should be looking to specialise in a certain area that interests you and you would be willing to work hard on.
The MBA is an exception to this, but its not so much an academic qualification as an arena to meet future business leaders and form some valuable 'contacts' (much as I hate using that word).

If people are considering spending €13,000 on a generic MBS in Smurfit, a $100,000 MBA course in the states suddenly begins to seem like good value.

philtaylor

Sure I can be correct on this but even the Wharton MBA in the US full time for a year and even allowing some huge spending money for accommodations , food, books and living it up can defo be done for 100,000 dollars and with the exchange rate at the moment that looks great value.

Bear in mind the Wharton is always near the top of every ranking table and generally beats Harvard every time in the FT.

Is the Wharton MBA Donald Trumps one??? I think his daughter went there?

justfortherecor

Here is a simple cost summary for the MBA in Harvard Business School.

http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/costsummary.html

I did an internship over the summer in London and one of the new associates had just graduated from Wharton with an MBA. The most arrogant guy I had ever met, but jesus the amount of people he knew to call upon when a certain project/business proposal arose was bloody scary!

He was $200,000 in the hole after the course though. But he's on a good career path now anyways it seems.

philtaylor

Harvard is 9 months which is a benefit keeps living costs down. Disadvantages is its hard to get into plus its like a machine there something like 500 or so candiates going through it per year. So how personal can your teaching really be???

daveirl

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philtaylor

yes both instead and lbs are excellent. However there are very expensive. I think if you pay for Insead yourself rather than your company its costs you 25000 euro more. I think Insead funding yourself costs close to 80-90000 euro. Which in my opinion is too much.

The downside with LBS is it takes forever full time , much longer than anyone elses full time MBA but this year after complaints you do have the oppurtunity to speed it up but I think its still works out at 15 months or something. If you are going for LBS go for the executive it takes the same time as the full time one and its part time. <<< I know crazy!! You will have to take each friday off in the year and the work load is much tougher.

daveirl

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philtaylor

yeah i am doing my gmat now. going to enroll next year. Just shopping around at the moment to see who I am going to go with. Probably head over to the MBA Fair in London to make the final decision.

If you have a look on the LBS Exec Website there some guy who commutes to LBS from LA to London each week to do it. He said its worth it just for the contacts alone.

Thats says alot to me.

eth0_

How can they justify those obscene fees?

daveirl

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markonm

Just be careful that none of these qualifications can turn a sows ear into a silk purse - if you ain't got the wherewithal to be a top flight business person, an MBA/S won't give it to you. There is a belief that succesful business people are too busy being succesful to waste time doing an MBA. An MBA/MBS is not a vocational qualification like accountancy, it doesn't qualify you to do or be anything. Where it is useful is in rounding out your knowledge/education. In a lot of industries, it is seen as a rite of passage, a necessary but not sufficient requirement for advancement. Try to be sure about your expectations. An MBA is an education and like all education, it is worthwhile in its own right. Caveat Emptor.

cerebus

philtaylor wrote:

Harvard is 9 months which is a benefit keeps living costs down. Disadvantages is its hard to get into plus its like a machine there something like 500 or so candiates going through it per year. So how personal can your teaching really be???
...
Sure I can be correct on this but even the Wharton MBA in the US full time for a year and even allowing some huge spending money for accommodations , food, books and living it up can defo be done for 100,000 dollars and with the exchange rate at the moment that looks great value.

Just to clarify - both Harvard and Wharton are 2-year MBA programs, as most US full-time MBAs are. They will run for ~21 months, with a 3 month or so break in the middle between year 1 and year 2 (used as an internship opportunity by most MBA students)

Budgets suggested by the schools (note that these are per year, for a single student - so double them for your total cost to attend)

Harvard: $73,300 (Harvard costs page)
Wharton: $71,948 (Wharton costs page)

Just some observations:
Any top-flight MBA program will give you a very similar education. Methods of teaching might be slightly different from school to school, but the foundation you get will be comparable across all institutions. The major attractions of the big-name schools are the networking and recruitment opportunities:

- At a HBS/Wharton/Stanford you'll have people in your class who can be very useful in your career, and you'll have access to outstanding alumni networks.
- Also, at a HBS/Wharton/Stanford you will have pretty good access to recruiting at the major IBanks and top consulting companies (eg McKinsey, Bain, BCG). Even more interestingly, VC/PE/HF firms that don't go anywhere else may come on campus, or only recruit from those schools.

I have been to visit both HBS and Wharton. Both are very impressive, great facilities, full of smart, driven people.

If you are planning to apply to a particular MBA program, I highly recommend a visit. Helps to figure out if the school is a good fit for you. Note that many of the schools have different strengths and ways of teaching - HBS is all about the case method (very cool, kind of Socratic, professor leads discussion), while somewhere like Wharton will mix lectures and case discussions.

Also, don't be discouraged if you don't get in to your dream school - any highly ranked program will be very hard to get into, HBS/Wharton take <20% of applicants each year.

Phil, HBS's class is more like 900 people a year. It is incredibly well structured though - so you don't run the risk of falling through the cracks. Any students I have talked to have had good things to say both about fellow students and interaction with professors.

Good luck with the GMAT - let us know how it goes!

edit:

Sorry, missed that justforthereco had provided Harvard's costs already. Mea Culpa.

Also, one word on rankings of MBA programs - every ranking methodology has inherent biases (I hesitate to call them 'flaws'), so be careful if you rely on rankings as your only way of picking an MBA.

TJJP

Would go for the MBA over MBS. MBS crew in UCD seemed fairly average. DCU could be well worth a look, serious institution for business grads.

Wouldn't do MBA at Smurfit (again). Complete lack of support and poor staff in general. Most of the high quality faculty are too busy with all the PR events to bother with students paying 30k euro to be there.

Europe is well worth looking at, institutions as mentioned above, Cranfield and so on as reccomended by justfortherecor as above. Aston worth a look too.

philtaylor

To be honest the only reason the MBS is there, is to get some money in to keep the Smurfit MBA afloat as the MBA is losing so much. Its a far easier to get 13000 euro off the parents of D4 college heads then smart professional who know their 30000 euro is better spent abroad. UCD gets the MBS cash and the students get another coushy year out before entering the proper world.

As for the DCU Mba I would leave it to be honest. As I said before do it outside of Ireland and then maybe come back and do the Doctor of Business at DCU after the MBA. That would probably be another option if you wanted to keep the learning going.

Just had a look there at the Trinity MBA seems the have jacked up the price this year by 4000 euro. You can bet their rankings for best value for money is going to be hit after that one.

The education system in ireland is abit of a joke to be honest , we are too small a country to have individual university cannabilizing each other. We should have one college for business etc , one for computers , science etc.. and fund accordingly. That would be the only way we can compete on a European / World scale.

Just read your post there cerebus, nice summary. Might take your advice and have a trip over. Again only really in the research stage myself. Probably wont make a commitment till after Christmas.

careeradvise

There are a few points in this post I am a little annoyed by. To me it seems that one or two individuals are looking down on those so called "wasters" who are trying to better themselves by doing an MBS regardless of what their Degree was in. Surely if you have changed your mind on what career you would like, taking an MBS cannot do any harm. I think the example given at the start was Engineering. In the context of what the original poster asked what would you suggest he do to better his career prospects ( an MBA would not be an option for a grad straight out of Uni who is not happy with his current qualification )

I am a little frustrated at the comments I have received back on the merits of doing such courses at Trinity and Smurfit. The reason being I myself am trying to make the transition from being a more technical employee in the I.T field to a more business related role. Yes, I know experience counts for all. But how to get that experience, without already being in that role. I thought my best option was to do a course that would display to employers I am committed to making the transition and have actively sought further education to gain this experience.

It would seem to me from comments made regarding these courses, thats its tough if you are in the wrong career field at present and there is no hope for change as all the courses are merely a money spinning racket.

What is the best method of furthering your career if its not via further education ?

daveirl

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careeradvise

That is good advise and I do agree with most of it. To be honest it just frustrates me how a lot of employers will only look at experience and not the commitment of someone trying to change their career path.
I do agree with a lot of what you say. But I would also stress its not always easy to gain the PM experience unless you have a company who are in a position to accommodate this.
I for one will probably end up doing an add onto my I.T degree, I will be looking for a course that encompasses a I.T / PM / Business flavor. It may do nothing else than cause me stress and cost me money.

I wasn't exactly disagreeing with the points made in this thread regarding the quality of Irish education or the merits of doing an MBA abroad. More in the context of what the original poster asked, I don't think recommending MBA's abroad was of much help, I could be wrong.

I also think a lot of people who do an MBS etc do so to better themselves and should be applauded for it. Obviously this is not the case with each and every individual.

daveirl

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justfortherecor

I think I shoulder most of the blame for the MBA tangeant! Sorry, it was probably a misplaced recommendation in the context of the thread and then myself and a couple of others kind of 'hijacked' the thread in discussing possible MBA business schools etc.

As daveirl suggests, jumping from Engineering to business may not require a new Postgrad course at all. Many financial jobs see quantitative skills as a major advantage and possible job avenues may include trading, derivative structuring, fixed income etc.
Most graduate programmes at banks bring together people from various academic backgrounds and work experience and most of the training is on the job.

Again though, I'll stick by my original point. If you are considering pursuing a postgraduate, the MBS simply seems to broad. A bit of specialisation in an area that interests you will be more worthwhile and make you more attractive to potential employers after graduation. It may require more study initially if you aren't too familiar with the area, but the education you get will be more relevant IMO.

padser

Just a quick about the quality of the teaching at smurfit. Having just been through final year in Quinn I have first hand experience of *some* of the MBA lecturers in Smurfit - since some courses in final year undergrad were thought by MBA lecturers.

I also did a two week course in Judge over the summer and got some experience of about 8 or 10 of their MBA lecturers.

The difference was staggering. Genuinely staggering. They were in a completely different class. I never thought the UCD business lecturers were up to much - but I was still amazed at the difference in quality of the lectures.

If you are thinking of doing any kind of post graduate business qualification look abroad - the quality of the stuff being offered in Ireland just makes it not worth it. Add to this that the quality of student (as alluded to by DaveIrl) taking part in the courses in Ireland is also lower - and it really becomes a no brainer in an acedemic sense.

breadmonkey

Thanks for all the info guys. I think what I really need is a "WTF am I going to do with my life" thread. <watch this space>

careeradvise

breadmonkey wrote: »

Thanks for all the info guys. I think what I really is a "WTF am I going to do with my life" thread. <watch this space>

Well you are by know means alone in that thought and some of us have worked for 6 years before reaching that conclusion

There is some excellent advise in this thread and I have enjoyed reading it. On that note and sorry if I am now hijacking the post myself , but would anyone have a recommendation of a place to study in London if seeking a business related postgrad ( considering someone's degree is in I.T ).

padser

careeradvise wrote: »

would anyone have a recommendation of a place to study in London if seeking a business related postgrad ( considering someone's degree is in I.T ).

(bearing in mind I only spent two weeks in the place but...) I was really impressed by Judge. They are a relatively new business school - so really trying their best to keep their courses top notch. Thought the lecturers were great quality. Its also a highly ranked business school (not quite LSE or Said - but not far off , and ahead of anything in Ireland).

Downsides would be the building really really resembles the inside of Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory and its not actually in London London (Cambridge)

justfortherecor

Well LSE would be top of the list obviously but entrance requirements are extremely high.
CASS is another business school that is well regarded in the financial industry but I think it may be extremely expensive.
Tanaka Business School is another well regarded business school, part of Imperial Uni (I was really interested in applying to their MSc in fuel and energy economics but never followed through).

ballooba

I did MBS last year and really enjoyed. Some people are a bit green but not necessarily. I thought there was a good mix. Personally I only had one years experience going in.

The course costed €5000 I think when I wrote off half to tax. My salary has gone up by 50%. Debatable whether that would have happend without dong the MBS but I now have a masters and had 1 really enjoyable year studying topics I probably would not have otherwise.

AARRRGH

ballooba where did you do your MBS for 5k?

ballooba

dublindude wrote: »

ballooba where did you do your MBS for 5k?

Smurfit. I think the total was €10k? I got €5k in tax back.

It's €11k now btw not €13k as advised above. That will be €6k after tax back.

philtaylor

how did you manage to get the full 5000 euro tax break on a 11100 euro course? How hard was it to apply for and how long did it take to get processed.

Any got any thoughts on the Warwick MBA?

ballooba

philtaylor wrote: »

how did you manage to get the full 5000 euro tax break on a 11100 euro course? How hard was it to apply for and how long did it take to get processed.

Limits set by the revenue are up to 50% of the cost of the course up to a maximum of €5,000*. I did not pay €5,000 in tax in 2007 so I had a family member pay a check of €5,000 towards my fees. They get the €5,000 back because they were liable for more than €5,000 in the year.

*whichever is less. i.e:
fees of €7,000 max is €3,500 back. (max 50%)
fees of €11,000 max is €5,000 back. (max 50%)

Of course this relies on one of your parents or your spouse earning over €25k odd.

edit:
If i have made a mistake I may owe someone €4,000. It says at the standard rate of 20%.
http://www.revenue.ie/forms/it31_form.pdf

D'oh! only €1,000 back.

wizard13

I have to ask, has anyone that has criticised the MBS in Smurfit actually done the course? I did it and it was really beneficial. It is world recognised and has helped me get a job as far away as Australia. As for the classes being full of clueless graduates, some of the people in my class were top of their entire year in their respective colleges. Yes, the students are inexperienced but the courses are geared at graduates, if you want something for people with more experience then the MBA is the way to go.

MIN2511

Only noticed this thread, there is no need to critcise MBS. It all depends on what your field is in, i personally want to do a MSC in Smurfit and i believe it would benefit me and add to my BSC.

AARRRGH

eth0_ wrote: »

How can they justify those obscene fees?

I think part of it is to keep it an exclusive club...

philtaylor

Yeah who cares if you got number 1 in arts!, its a course for "wasters".

cerebus

Sorry about dragging the thread back to MBAs again, just wanted to let people know that I got accepted to Wharton's MBA program just before Christmas. I am very excited about it, it will be good to go back to school for couple of years. Still waiting to hear from a couple of other programs, but it will be hard to turn Wharton down (looks like I am out of the running at Harvard and Stanford unfortunately, which are the two schools I would have ranked higher than Wharton personally).

Hoping to make a switch from a very technical field (PhD, work for a semiconductor company) to something in the VC/PE space, so looking forward to diving into finance, entrepreneurship and strategy!

If anyone is interested in the application process for these kind of schools let me know - more than happy to share my experiences.

damnyanks

Wanna post it here? I can do one in new york but its designed by the company. Would rather head to a different school.

rick_fantastic

im currently completing the MBs in Smurfit, doing the Information Systems stream.

I dont find the course work too taxing. 5 hrs a week of lectures. 2 exams every 12 weeks.

Job is paying for me to do this so its free for me. Worked for company for 3 months on contract and then started MBs.

I have advanced from bottom level guy out of college to running IT Dept for 140+/- users

and project managing a systems migration from current model to SAP driven architecture

alot the people doing the MBs in Smurfit have no experience going in which shows during class discussion in a lot of cases.

doing this course has already opened a lot of doors for me and i havent even finished to course yet. i have been offer a role as an SAP consultant when I finish the migration project end 2008.

id recommend it for people wanting to have that stepping stone from their primary degree.

everyone here is harping on about MBA, MBA blah blah blah is better but realistically you need AT LEAST five years experience in a Management role before one of these is even worthwhile doing.

nobody does MBA straight out of college.

philtaylor

Cerebus congrats,

Is it harvard over 9 months straight or is it the same crack as Wharton over two years full time with internship in the middle.

Did you visit the campuses and did you make it to the interview (face to face) stage at Harvard, etc or?

What accommodation you going for with Wharton. Wharton is really up there so would regret the harvard thing. Are you staying on campus, or going it alone and finding something yourself. Any pictures of the on campus accommodation and whats the situation with health cares. Does Irish VHI BUPA cover US, or does that to be bought for the US side.

Also what was your GMAT score like , was that a major factor for harvard or was it all this leadership and community work bolloxs?

philtaylor

yeah rick you make a valid point , but the mbs is really as I have said before for college graduates. any body worth there salt should be doing a mba instead of an mbs 3-7 years down the line from college.

I dont see why people with 3-10 years experience would do an MBS over an MBA, its fully of college graduates , who have no practical experience to bring to the table and could'nt get jobs at graduate level either because of daddys credit card, laziness or because they have lame degrees from various arts courses.

AARRRGH

philtaylor wrote: »

could'nt get jobs at graduate level either because of daddys credit card or because they have lame degrees from various arts courses.

LOL that's a bit harsh

philtaylor

harsh but true, a person for me has to be exceptionally gifted or have really good experience for me to take them after an arts degree, in many cases they are complete wasters who got so used to the D4 way off life they refuse to start at the bottom and work their way up. Hence they have to do an MBS to be even considered. But to be fair the MBS is very poor and they don't learn any really skills which can be transferred to economic value added for an employer. There no way the skills you learn in such a course can justify the price tag but has the parent our picking it up its fine. They can charge whatever they like so long as enough mugs come along.

MIN2511

cerebus wrote: »

Sorry about dragging the thread back to MBAs again, just wanted to let people know that I got accepted to Wharton's MBA program just before Christmas. I am very excited about it, it will be good to go back to school for couple of years. Still waiting to hear from a couple of other programs, but it will be hard to turn Wharton down (looks like I am out of the running at Harvard and Stanford unfortunately, which are the two schools I would have ranked higher than Wharton personally).

Hoping to make a switch from a very technical field (PhD, work for a semiconductor company) to something in the VC/PE space, so looking forward to diving into finance, entrepreneurship and strategy!

If anyone is interested in the application process for these kind of schools let me know - more than happy to share my experiences.

Congrats! Still undecided on what to do. The two yrs in Wharton's what’s the curriculum like? And how much is it... e.t.c... Just basic details on how you got in

cerebus

philtaylor wrote: »

Cerebus congrats,

Is it harvard over 9 months straight or is it the same crack as Wharton over two years full time with internship in the middle.

Did you visit the campuses and did you make it to the interview (face to face) stage at Harvard, etc or?

What accommodation you going for with Wharton. Wharton is really up there so would regret the harvard thing. Are you staying on campus, or going it alone and finding something yourself. Any pictures of the on campus accommodation and whats the situation with health cares. Does Irish VHI BUPA cover US, or does that to be bought for the US side.

Also what was your GMAT score like , was that a major factor for harvard or was it all this leadership and community work bolloxs?

Some quick background on me:

School and undergraduate EE in Galway (UCG as it was back then), PhD and a 2-year research-assistant/postdoc in QUB focused on semiconductor design. Worked in Dublin for about 9 months after I left QUB, then got a job in Vancouver, Canada, with a fabless semiconductor company. Started in a technical role, now manage a team of 15 engineers in the company's sites around the world. Reasonably good extra-curriculars in my opinion , lots of leadership/team experiences. Just over 8 years professional work experience when I applied.

I want to change from semiconductors to VC, with an eventual emphasis on greentech/cleantech if possible. I tied this goal to my professional and personal experiences, so I think I had a good solid story for why an MBA and why now.

I applied to 5 US programs in round 1 of the application cycle this year - Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, MIT-Sloan and Haas (Berkeley). I have interviewed with Wharton and Harvard, and will interview with Berkeley this weekend - off to the airport in a few hours. I have not heard from Stanford or MIT, so I imagine I will not be successful there.

Biggest challenge for me with all these programs was going to be my age. After PhD + 8 years work experience, I'm 35 years old. Most US programs have an average age somewhere around 26/27.

Answers for some of your questions:

Wharton is a 2-year program, same as Harvard. I wanted/needed that as I hope to use the summer internship to help me change careers.

I did visit most of the campuses in 2006 as I was narrowing down where I wanted to apply to. Made it to the interview stage with both Wharton and Harvard late last year. I interviewed on-campus in Philadelphia with Wharton, and interviewed with HBS in Seattle. (This makes the Harvard rejection a little bit more annoying, as your chances of getting in to HBS are supposed to be 50-60% if you make it to the interview).

I will be moving to Philadelphia with a family (wife and 2 small kids) so we'll be looking to rent someplace ourselves. I'll let you know how this goes.

Health insurance will need to be US-based. The offer package and associated material I got from Wharton provided information on a number of different plans.

I had a solid GMAT score, 760. Certainly didn't hurt me. The impression I got is that once you were at or above the average score for the school, it didn't make that much difference.

I'll try to put together a comprehensive summary if people are interested - though I probably should not derail this thread any more.

MIN2511

Jeez cerebus, you really are focused. ALL THE BEST!!!

Since we are on the topic, i have a 2yr cert in CS and a degree in CS (nearly done), i also have testing experience (nearly 2yrs) and i would like to do a MSC in September. My ideal course is the MSc in Management Science (Smurfit) or Software Engineering (DIT). I haven't applied to anywhere yet cause from normal responses it's near impossible to get into Smurfit. Has anyone done the Management Science in Smurfit? Any ideas or thoughts on it would be appreciated.
I am 22 btw