Dead Lift Problem

thebiggestjim

I have a problem with my back when performing heavy barbell deadlifts. At the time I can perform the deadlift ok, but if I try and run the next day the small of my back gets very sore and I cant continue. This pain subsides after a few days and im back to normal.

I have looked at my form and had other people look at it and its not bad (so I think, im open to correction) I keep my back straight, ass out, head looking up and keep the bar brushing my shins on the uplift. Then lift in one movement with legs and back.

I moved to deadlifting with dumbells. I am able to start and keep my back more upright on the lift and I don't have the same problem.

Im 6ft 4in and my back is a little longer than normal.

Should I try and strengthen my lower back? I would really like to perform this movement with heavy weights as I know the benefit of heavy compound movements.

Any advice appreciated.

Jim

Hanley

It's probably just DOMS.

After deadlifting heavy your back won'tbe up for much the next day.

What sort of sets and reps are you doing?

walt0r

Be really careful on the deadlift but particularly when you're quite tall. I'm 6' 5" and strained ligaments in my back last year and it recurred during the summer. I have to be careful when deadlifting and right now am in the process of switching from conventional to sumo. I don't have much time right now to do much training because of exams but I reckon sumo is the way to go for lanky deadlifters.

thebiggestjim

Hanley wrote: »

It's probably just DOMS.

After deadlifting heavy your back won'tbe up for much the next day.

What sort of sets and reps are you doing?

Doing 3 sets of 6 reps, I don't think its a tired pain im getting, its a something is not right and don't keep doing it pain.

congrats on your performance at WDFPF c'ship

walt0r wrote: »

Be really careful on the deadlift but particularly when you're quite tall. I'm 6' 5" and strained ligaments in my back last year and it recurred during the summer. I have to be careful when deadlifting and right now am in the process of switching from conventional to sumo. I don't have much time right now to do much training because of exams but I reckon sumo is the way to go for lanky deadlifters.

Interesting, I had a look at them on the tube. The lifter is able to keep their back much straighter which I found a benefit on the dumbell deadlifts. I might give these a go. Are their any tradeoffs with sumo vs conventional? Can someone lift more on sumo?

tribulus

Used to get it all the time too.

As a general rule, I'm going to say people's glutes are sh1t, and hips are tight.
Try really focusing on driving your glutes through at the top of the DL's and do some activation work as a warm up.

Then make sure you stretch out all that area too at some stage, get a tennis ball and roll on it too.

I used to have to lie down after back training the pain was so constant, doesn't happen anymore since I've done the above.

I'm not a health professional! and it's just a suggestion but it won't do any harm to try it.

Sumo won't be as tough on your lower back but will probably beat up your hips more. If your hips aren't up to scratch you will suck at sumo's, depends what you want out of deadlifting I suppose.

Colm_OReilly

Without seeing you these are just assumptions, and should be taken as such.

Then lift in one movement with legs and back.

This could just be the way you wrote it but you don't lift with your back at the start of the lift.

At the start, you're extending your knees, mainly through the use of the quads. Your back and hamstrings are in isometric contraction keeping the angle your torso makes with floor (hip angle) the same until the bar has cleared the knees, at which point your extend your hips.

If you're starting to extend your hips as you lift off the floor you could be placing too much work on your erector spinae and hamstrings.

I moved to deadlifting with dumbells. I am able to start and keep my back more upright on the lift and I don't have the same problem.

Again this could suggest that you're losing your lumbar curve at the start of the deadlift and pulling with a rounded back.

Be really careful on the deadlift but particularly when you're quite tall.

I've some video at home about height, deadlifting and sumo deadlifting. I can't recall exactly what was gone over but I'll have a look and get back.

The lifter is able to keep their back much straighter which I found a benefit on the dumbell deadlifts.

More upright, not straighter. (to be pedantic about it)

Can someone lift more on sumo?

If they've a ****ty DL and a better sumo then yeah, but as a general rule, the DL will be the strongest of the lifts. Always exceptions though.

As an experiment, try DL with 60% your current weight, then run in the morrow and see how it feels.

thebiggestjim

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Without seeing you these are just assumptions, and should be taken as such.


This could just be the way you wrote it but you don't lift with your back at the start of the lift.

At the start, you're extending your knees, mainly through the use of the quads. Your back and hamstrings are in isometric contraction keeping the angle your torso makes with floor (hip angle) the same until the bar has cleared the knees, at which point your extend your hips.

If you're starting to extend your hips as you lift off the floor you could be placing too much work on your erector spinae and hamstrings.

Yes you could be onto something here. So the first part of movement is with the quads keeping your hip angle the same until the barbell has cleared you knees (i.e. your legs are straight), thus quads worked, second part of movement extend hips/straighten back thus hams and back worked. and the same on the way back down I presume. I have tried to keep this form. What might be happening is when I go heavier im losing this form and doing as you suggest, lifting with back too early. Even though I can lift the weight, im might not be performing the exercise correctly, thus reduce the weight.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Again this could suggest that you're losing your lumbar curve at the start of the deadlift and pulling with a rounded back.

Defo Possible

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

I've some video at home about height, deadlifting and sumo deadlifting. I can't recall exactly what was gone over but I'll have a look and get back.

cheers

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

More upright, not straighter. (to be pedantic about it)

yip thats what I ment

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

As an experiment, try DL with 60% your current weight, then run in the morrow and see how it feels.

3 sets of 8 ok for this?
Jim

HammerHeadGym

It sounds to me like your straightening your legs too soon, letting your arse rise too high and the doing all the work with your erector spinae. My advice would be to go and talk to a reputable coach and ask for some help or record yourself and link it here so we can silently judge you, and give each other knowing looks, then fall silent every time you walk into the room.

Well, maybe not hte last bit but you know what I mean

Hanley

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

It sounds to me like your straightening your legs too soon, letting your arse rise too high and the doing all the work with your erector spinae. My advice would be to go and talk to a reputable coach and ask for some help or record yourself and link it here so we can silently judge you, and give each other knowing looks, then fall silent every time you walk into the room.

Well, maybe not hte last bit but you know what I mean

Yup sounds about right. You don't want to be extending your legs first and then your hips. It's a deadlift, it should all flow together, now if you were doing an olympic pull then it wold be correct to push the floor away with your legs and maintain your back angle, but you're not.

As you break the floor, lead back and up with your head and chest.

Colm_OReilly

Dave's on the ball about the hips raising too soon being another problem with the deadlift. Your hips and the bar should move at the same time the same distance vertically at the start of the deadlift.

So the first part of movement is with the quads keeping your hip angle the same until the barbell has cleared you knees (i.e. your legs are straight),

Not exactly. Your knees aren't fully extended before the hips, ideally the both reach full extension together. When the bar has cleared the knees they're close to full extension but not complete.

I'm a little wary of discussing it further because without pictures and instruction it could get more confusing.

Check out these two vids for a starter (they've on alignment, not the motion, but they help set up the principles for the movement)

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_RipDLAlignment1.wmv
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_RipDLAlignment2.wmv

Canis Lupus

Not experienced enough to give proper comments on form but for me at 5 11/6 ft I find I can't keep a straight back with the conventional lift (or at least I'd have to grab the bar and use the weight to keep me from falling backwards so I can straighten up the back but then the lift feels wrong cos I'm not lifting from a relaxed position if that makes sense). Sumo allows me to keep the back straight but I'm really still only learning it.

One of the things I find with sumo that's driving me mad is that my feet start pointing out too much altho I'm not really sure how bad a thing that is, I just know they're not supposed to

thebiggestjim

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Check out these two vids for a starter (they've on alignment, not the motion, but they help set up the principles for the movement)

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_RipDLAlignment1.wmv
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_RipDLAlignment2.wmv

Interesting stuff, This guy mentioned something that might be relevant. In the second video he talked about body shape for deadlifters.
I fall into the second category, longer torso shorter legs, which he pointed out if the lifter bends over too much can put a lot of pressure on the erector spine. The effect would be compounded by the fact im tall enough, 6'4". I think there is some truth here because that is where I get the pain.

So here is what im going to do. Going hitting the gym this evening and work with the guy that owns it. He is an experienced lifter and should be able to point out a few things. Ill post some of his comments and observations. If im still not happy I will try and get a video of my deadlift and post it so you all can comment and go silent when I enter the room.

thanks,
Jim

tribulus

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Not experienced enough to give proper comments on form but for me at 5 11/6 ft I find I can't keep a straight back with the conventional lift (or at least I'd have to grab the bar and use the weight to keep me from falling backwards so I can straighten up the back but then the lift feels wrong cos I'm not lifting from a relaxed position if that makes sense). Sumo allows me to keep the back straight but I'm really still only learning it.

One of the things I find with sumo that's driving me mad is that my feet start pointing out too much altho I'm not really sure how bad a thing that is, I just know they're not supposed to

It shouldn't be a problem at that height. Using the bar to keep you from falling backwards is good, it means your arms are taut and there's tension on the bar. You shouldn't be lifting from a relaxed position you should be tight.

Your feet should be pointing out when you pull sumo.

Canis Lupus

tribulus wrote: »

It shouldn't be a problem at that height. Using the bar to keep you from falling backwards is good, it means your arms are taut and there's tension on the bar. You shouldn't be lifting from a relaxed position you should be tight.

Your feet should be pointing out when you pull sumo.

Relaxed I mean comfortable, I'm not comfortable in conventional.

And my feet splay right out if I don't pay attention which adjusts the direction my knees are facing.

However, I'll go back and try again now that I'm getting more comfortable with the lift because initially either way felt weird. (I'll let this go back on topic).

Malteaser!

Just to echo what Trib said, your height shouldn't be an issue with the conventionals.

Also with the Sumos, your toes are supposed to be pointing outwards. Just make sure that your knees are spread and keep your chest up high. You should be applying force across the floor and not directly down. This'll keep your hips low and help pop the bar out.