Are we really a republic?

brianthebard

In most republics the president is much more powerful than ours, the two houses of state are more balanced powerwise, there is no state religion or "special mention" given to one religion in constitutions, and the people of the state may have a stronger say in how the country is run, through the use of popular referenda. So apart from names and a semblence of a republic an political framework, what makes Ireland a republic? And is that framework enough, or are there still important aspects missing from our republic?

The_Minister

I thought that we got rid of the special mention?

brianthebard

Its still in the constitution that's posted on the taoiseach's website. Afaik it used to be more explicit, but there is still a reference to God and the trinity and stuff.

AngryHippie

technically you cannot say that God or the trinity is giving mention to a specific religion, as all Christian denominations have basically the same principles on that one. In practice, since 432 AD this country has been predominantly Christian, and its courts and laws are structured on the Lines of CHristian morals and ethics, so In practice christianity rules the roost, even though the ethical code is pretty much acceptable to all other faiths, apart from some extreme sects.
I don't think there are any minority religions that get poor treatment as a result of it, so yeah, democratic republic we are. Alternatively you could view it as an ecumenical matter, but I'm agnostic, so I'm not gonna go there....

Dalfiatach

brianthebard wrote: »

In most republics the president is much more powerful than ours, the two houses of state are more balanced powerwise, there is no state religion or "special mention" given to one religion in constitutions, and the people of the state may have a stronger say in how the country is run, through the use of popular referenda. So apart from names and a semblence of a republic an political framework, what makes Ireland a republic? And is that framework enough, or are there still important aspects missing from our republic?

Our Head of State is elected by The People and (in theory at least) The People are the ultimate source of all sovereignty and governmental power. Hence, we're a Republic.

There's no real agreement beyond that on what characteristics a Republic should have. Things like separation of powers, written constitutions, referenda, secularism etc. are more to do with various models of representative democracy rather than republicanism (as a system of government).

Strictly speaking I suppose we're a Constitutional Republic using our own unique flavour of Representative Democracy. Personally I'd like to see the Seanad completely overhauled to actually be more of an equal to the Dáil, much stronger oversight of the public sector (specifically, accountability for corruption and mindless waste), and possibly more direct referenda like Switzerland. Sadly, we might need to dump our current multi-seat PR-STV electoral system because it just seems to encourage local clientelism, gombeenism and nepotism and a Dáil full of messenger boys and cute hoors rather than national statesmen/women but I'm not sure what to replace it with.

Or maybe overhauling local government, properly decentralising power to that level might be the answer to that one. That our national parliamentarians spend 90% of their time on potholes, street lights, and "fixing" planning applications is ridiculous.

AngryHippie

Agreed 100%
Its a sad state of affairs, but then again, once they make it to the Dail, all real work goes out the window, unless they have a ministerial post.
Local councillors are a major problem in my mind, while they do have a real list of work to do, they tend to get sidetracked into satisfying the demands of the construction sector and cleaning up the messes they leave behind, instead of serving the needs of actual constiuents that cannot afford to have a lobby of "experts" staring down the planners.

The local political situation being changed from the P/R system it is under is essential, for too long the local party politics have been enough to allow FF to rampage unchecked, this is having dire consequences on our social structure. Unless the County Councils are forced to answer to independent candidates, unafraid to rock the boat and mix it up, there is no practical way to control how policy changes from the top are implemented below.

I agree that the Seanad is hamstrung as it is at the moment, It is a great proving ground and should be utilised far more, but unforunately to change that would invlove lengthy constitutional amendments and no doubt further salary increases :eek:

A good old fashined booting out at the next local and General elections is the order of the day. Get in some men with depth, like Deputy Willie Penrose, he did his constituents proud with his statement in the Dail today, emotional as it was:p

Dalfiatach

Unfortunately at local government level FG and Labour are almost as bad as FF at the old planning corruption, though their TDs do seem a lot cleaner in general.

At the end of the day it's down to the voters, and is there any evidence that most of them care? They seem happy to vote for eejits that "sent a letter on their behalf" even though anyone with a brain knows that kind of nonsense actually achieves feck all.

You get the politicians you deserve, and all the evidence over the last few decades shows that you can have a very lucrative national career based on nothing more than nonsense local pothole letters, without having any ideas or talent whatsoever. Martin Cullen is just the most famous of this breed - he's completely clueless and has wasted hundreds of millions of euro of our money, but he's kept in the cabinet cos Waterford people keep voting for the clown on the basis that "he'll get stuff for Waterford and he sent a letter to the council about me drains"

Then there's all the people who vote for parties based on nothing more than "Me granda voted for them, me da voted for them, they told me the others are all evil, I'll vote for them too". Bertie could have boiled puppies alive on the Late Late before the election, and still got 35-40% of the vote, because so many people just vote FF because...well, because.

In a lot of ways our electorate are pretty infantile, and the political class just pander to that. I honestly don't think a lot of the electorate have copped on to the fact that we've allegedly been independent for 85 years, and we have to take the running of this country seriously.

AngryHippie

Hear hear!

In fairness, there are a few genuine, hardworking politicians out there, but they get turned into old men/women very quickly, getting chewed up by the total buffoonery of the rest of the governmental members. There needs to be a vast cleanout done at the next local elections/ general elections. I think that the evidence is in the public domain for this to take place, but it needs some of the educated elite to start shouting wolf now, and to turn around and provide alternatives.

The sad part is, a very high proportion of this country is employed in construction sector, and for some reason considers themselves "tied" to the very politicians that have "tied" them to the huge PSBR in this country, while leaving them stuck in traffic for 3 hours a day just to get to their job that barely covers their mortgage. Who is Fcuking kidding who here ????


Get it straight Ireland, you owe Fianna Fail nothing
You owe your local councillor nothing
They are not your Buddies,
They will screw you as quick as look at you when someone comes along with a better offer for them.

Same applies to all other political parties, this country needs some real candidates with real credentials, even from the private sector if needs be.

When budgets get tight, do you seriously think an administrative behemoth like the HSE is going to stand a chance of providing any kind of service ???
Same applies to local authorities.....
Same applies to our public transport.....

brianthebard

Dalfiatach wrote: »

Our Head of State is elected by The People and (in theory at least) The People are the ultimate source of all sovereignty and governmental power. Hence, we're a Republic.

There's no real agreement beyond that on what characteristics a Republic should have. Things like separation of powers, written constitutions, referenda, secularism etc. are more to do with various models of representative democracy rather than republicanism (as a system of government).

Strictly speaking I suppose we're a Constitutional Republic using our own unique flavour of Representative Democracy. Personally I'd like to see the Seanad completely overhauled to actually be more of an equal to the Dáil, much stronger oversight of the public sector (specifically, accountability for corruption and mindless waste), and possibly more direct referenda like Switzerland. Sadly, we might need to dump our current multi-seat PR-STV electoral system because it just seems to encourage local clientelism, gombeenism and nepotism and a Dáil full of messenger boys and cute hoors rather than national statesmen/women but I'm not sure what to replace it with.

Or maybe overhauling local government, properly decentralising power to that level might be the answer to that one. That our national parliamentarians spend 90% of their time on potholes, street lights, and "fixing" planning applications is ridiculous.

Haha, you've pointed out all the problems I think take away from our republicness. Yes the prez is elected but is basically a figurehead, a replacement for the viceroy. The inequality between senaid/dail/co.co's is imo the main reason we have such problems with so called parish pump politics. People know that if you want something sorted you need to go to a TD, not a councillor. If the county councils were given more powers then we might see a reduction in Jackie healy rae types. And imo we need to bring back popular referendum, to me it is the most defining aspect of a true republic. I know you won't find it in all republics, but the whole point of republics is to give the people real say, and voting twice every five years for council or Dail, and seven for a figurehead president doesn't cut it imo.

AngryHippie

Thats what I'm talkin' bout:)

JHMEG

Dalfiatach wrote: »

Our Head of State is elected by The People and (in theory at least) The People are the ultimate source of all sovereignty and governmental power. Hence, we're a Republic.

"A state or nation in which the supreme power rests in all the citizens entitled to vote. This power is exercised by representatives elected, directly or indirectly, by them and responsible to them."

We are not a true republic in my view for a number of reasons:
1. -and the most important- any potential presidential candidates have to seek prior approval from non-elected people. The public have no say. Dana might have made a fine president but could not get approval to run, and thus the people had no say. (To run for the Dail is easier otoh.)
2. Senate is not elected. In fact has often said that it is full of FF cronies.
3. People who are in positions of power that have a direct bearing over the lives of citizens, eg county managers, are not elected.

The US system has often been cited for its flaws, but imo it is more of a Republic that Ireland is.

oscarBravo

JHMEG wrote: »

Dana might have made a fine president...

On what planet?

Sand

We arent a republic, we are a democracy. The two terms are used almost interchangeably but they imply different things.

Republics are built recognising that democratic accountability is vital for good governance, but also extremely wary of the tyranny of the majority. Hence Republics tend to power being divided between strong institutions [A 2 house legislature which are powerful in their own right, a strong executive, independant judiciary] that act as a check on each other.

Democracies tend to be centralised, with the votes of the majority and their representitives have a far more uncontested grasp of power - rightly or wrongly.

ciaran2008

Well that all depends on your definition of a republic! Republicanism is a very broad church. Republicanism is an ideology that recognises the core rights of individuals and the collective rights of people! Republicanism is a very broad church and it is about how power and authority is delegated its how society is democratically put together and so you can have a conservative republic like the USA, you can have small farmers, small swindlers, dodgy envelope republic which is what we have in the south or you can have a smuggled cigarette and smuggled disle republic which is what I think we are heading for in here in the North.

Belfast

brianthebard wrote: »

In most republics the president is much more powerful than ours, the two houses of state are more balanced powerwise, there is no state religion or "special mention" given to one religion in constitutions, and the people of the state may have a stronger say in how the country is run, through the use of popular referenda. So apart from names and a semblence of a republic an political framework, what makes Ireland a republic? And is that framework enough, or are there still important aspects missing from our republic?

Yes, we are a Republic as we have a written Constitution. Not a very good Republic.
In a republic the people are sovereign. In a Democracy the Parliament is sovereign.
The reason the president is not powerful is the treaty that end the war of independance stated that we had to have a prime minister. When the new Constitution came in in 1937 the role of the king war replaced be the president.

Fifth Amendment (5 January 1973): Removed reference to "special position" of the Roman Catholic Church and to certain other named denominations.

The special position of the catholic church gave in no formal power. It was a sop to the church in 1937. The church wanted Catholic church to be made the state religion and dev having been excommunicated twice did not want this.
The Church did not have power, but it did have influence.

Belfast

brianthebard wrote: »

In most republics the president is much more powerful than ours, the two houses of state are more balanced powerwise, there is no state religion or "special mention" given to one religion in constitutions, and the people of the state may have a stronger say in how the country is run, through the use of popular referenda. So apart from names and a semblence of a republic an political framework, what makes Ireland a republic? And is that framework enough, or are there still important aspects missing from our republic?

Yes, we are a Republic as we have a written Constitution that limits the power of goverment and can only be changed direct by the people not by Parliament. Not a very good Republic.
One of the big problems with our republic is the elector register in out of date and has many dead people on it and the same people registered in many places at the same time. it can also be updated by political partys. This may help to explain why so many independents and small political partys got wiped out at the last election, but the fainna fail gene pool independents survived.
The question may be not are we a republic, but did we have a legal election or fair election last time.
In a republic the people are sovereign. In a Democracy the Parliament is sovereign.
The reason the president is not powerful is the treaty that end the war of independance stated that we had to have a prime minister. When the new Constitution came in in 1937 the role of the king war replaced be the president.

Fifth Amendment (5 January 1973): Removed reference to "special position" of the Roman Catholic Church and to certain other named denominations.

The special position of the catholic church gave in no formal power. It was a sop to the church in 1937. The church wanted Catholic church to be made the state religion and dev having been excommunicated twice did not want this.
The Church did not have power, but it did have influence.

Belfast

CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

It is christian not Roman Catholic. No bad Idea to change it.

possibly this
CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND
In the Name of the sovereign people of ireland, from Whom is all authority, as our final end, all actions the State must be referred,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

Belfast

if Ireland had a Powerful President like American Fianna Fáil would almost always control the post of President.

Voipjunkie

It should also be noted that the constitution predates the declaration of a republic and that the declaration of a Republic was done as much to piss off the main author of the constitution as anything else.

So pointing to passages in devs constitution as proof that we are not a Republic is pretty pointless as the constitution does not claim to be a constitution of a Republic.

brianthebard

But that just enforces the fact that we aren't a republic-all that bull in secondary school about being "a republic in all but name" is a farce since the constitution dev created wasn't one for a Republic.

dresden8

brianthebard wrote: »

. If the county councils were given more powers then we might see a reduction in Jackie healy rae types.

I disagree, most of the really bad corruption and local clientilism came from the local planning process, we'll end up with more of the tossers. (Not that I think Jackie is corrupt, just a local cute hoor)

The problem in Ireland is that we forgive these effers everything. In any normal country Conor Lenihan would be gone after the kebabs remark (not made Minister for Integration ffs).

Cooper-Flynn screws RTE (i.e. us) for over one million and walks away scot free. Her da? A Flynn first and always. You're paid to work for us you scumbag.

Lowry would be gone.

Bertie? Bryan Dobson eyes me ar*e.

Enda Kenny. Useless.

The problem is not with the Irish system, the problem is with the Irish electorate who think, sure he may be a crook, but he's our crook! Vote the f***er back in.

brianthebard

well I agree that if we kept the same system and gave local councillors more power we would probably end up with more corruption, but it pretty much goes without saying at this stage that there is a lot of cleaning up to do at local and national level.

Gobán Saor

I'm not sure I see the point of the original question. The problem is there is no agreed universal definition of a republic. Wikipedia sets the bar pretty low:

A republic is a state or country that is not led by a hereditary monarch, where the people of that state or country (or at least a part of that people) have impact on its government

Is an Islamic Republic a "real" republic? Wikipedia would say yes, it could be. But it is vastly different from any concept of a republic most non-muslims would recognise. With such huge capacity for disagreement on definition, the question is asking something that is not capable of a meaningful answer. It might be more useful to ask whether our system of Government is good, fair, just, moral, efficient, effective or sensible.

dereko1969

Well this is a fine secular republic we live in when this happens
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0523/breaking33.htm
the head of this "Republic" and armed forces heading off on a jolly with 500 Defence forces staff that should be doing something more important than a trip to Lourdes! I mean the head of the mission to Chad is going to this rather than being in Chad?

AngryHippie

If you actually take a look at who was sent to Chad, It was mostly Irish Army Rangers, Something tells me Mary McAleese wouldn't be much use at the business end of a machete or AK47, So Lourdes is probably the best place for her, out of harms way, she can say a few oul prayers for the unforunates that did get sent.
So the entourage of 500 is composed of

members of the Defence Forces, Civil Defence, Organisation of Ex-Servicemen and Women, the Irish United National Veterans Association and their families.

I'm not sure what use you think the IUNVA and their families are going to be in Chad either.

This year marks the 50th anniversary celebration of the International Military Pilgrimage which was initiated in 1958 as a post World War Two healing process by the French and German authorities. The event has involved the Irish Defence Forces since its inception.

As such this event would represent an important event in their calender and while the attendance of the Head of the UN mission might seem a little unnecessary, you must bear in mind that there will be military brass from all over the world at this and it may be an important occasion for him to meet other army leaders who may be able to assist later on in the Chad mission with staff or resources. The alternative is to isolate the Chad mission and leave them out of sight and out of mind, which leads to the fate of Romeo DAllaire in Rwanda. It is obvious that the UN can never arrange the resources for missions of this source without some work behind the scenes and outside of their direct involvement, so events like this can be very important for current and future affairs as well as the respect they are paying to those who fought and died in the past.

oscarBravo

Can I gently remind people to have a look at the name of this forum before posting? Ta.

Star_Buck

ciaran2008 wrote: »

Well that all depends on your definition of a republic! Republicanism is a very broad church. Republicanism is an ideology that recognises the core rights of individuals and the collective rights of people! Republicanism is a very broad church and it is about how power and authority is delegated its how society is democratically put together and so you can have a conservative republic like the USA, you can have small farmers, small swindlers, dodgy envelope republic which is what we have in the south or you can have a smuggled cigarette and smuggled disle republic which is what I think we are heading for in here in the North.

If your going to quote someone, at least attribute it to the author, in this case Bernadette McAliskey.

kowloon

Dalfiatach wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see the Seanad completely overhauled to actually be more of an equal to the Dáil, much stronger oversight of the public sector (specifically, accountability for corruption and mindless waste), and possibly more direct referenda like Switzerland. Sadly, we might need to dump our current multi-seat PR-STV electoral system because it just seems to encourage local clientelism, gombeenism and nepotism and a Dáil full of messenger boys and cute hoors rather than national statesmen/women but I'm not sure what to replace it with.

Or maybe overhauling local government, properly decentralising power to that level might be the answer to that one. That our national parliamentarians spend 90% of their time on potholes, street lights, and "fixing" planning applications is ridiculous.

If someone said that at my door and I thought they actually meant it I would actually bother to go and vote.

Shacklebolt

An overhaul of the Seanad is badly needed. Either it should be made democratic with Senators elected by the people or else abolished entirely-the latter woulod have no practical effect on the vast majority of people as it may as well be non-existent for the little work it does.

derry

We need that all the senate is democraticaly elected

We need that the Senate can and will activily ensure skuldugury that exists with the Dail can be reduced and not use the Senate as a rubber stamp

We need that the President be much more vocal about blatant lack of care and services bordering on neo nazi campain to slowly stave the poor to death rather than find the funds to help them and ask for Nurimberg trial to commence to find who ordered what in our 1940 to 1990 policy to drive poor unemployed out to other countries with one way tickets isued in social welfarre offices

We need the President to more activily block crap laws and crap law making especially where it is detrimental to the poor
The last dail where FF and PD's headed by Bertie and PD,s minister for Justice whats his name always in your face on telly guy steam rolled through bad laws against any reasonable advise from the opposition with the majority is the only right attitude

Worse the previous Dail has allowed the with several stupid guick machine gun fire law making to mean if the whacko SF ever get into power they can just copy the mold of quick machine gun fire law making mold and overturn all the Irish laws protecting individuals right overnight and then you can all become political refugees in some other country

There now is no safety circuit breakers in the Irish Sytem worth a toss and if a 100% government gets in they can run riot and rob and steal with impunity


Derry

asdasd

blatant lack of care and services bordering on neo nazi campain to slowly stave the poor to death rather than find the funds to help them

Ignoring the violation of Godwins law, and the demand that the president always be a left wing fanatic, who is exactly starving to death, now? We have spent vast amounts of taxpayers money on funds to help the poor and the sick, ask the HSE where it went.

and ask for Nurimberg trial to commence to find who ordered what in our 1940 to 1990 policy to drive poor unemployed out to other countries with one way tickets isued in social welfarre offices

Thats easy. A autarkic State hostile to Britain and free trade was replaced by a socialist paradise where workers paid 65% tax on £13,000 ( in 1990 Ir£) or more. Result, misery and emigration to more capitalistic climes where the living was easy.

brianthebard

asdasd wrote: »

Ignoring the violation of Godwins law, and the demand that the president always be a left wing fanatic, who is exactly starving to death, now? We have spent vast amounts of taxpayers money on funds to help the poor and the sick, ask the HSE where it went.

Down the drain

Thats easy. A autarkic State hostile to Britain and free trade was replaced by a socialist paradise where workers paid 65% tax on £13,000 ( in 1990 Ir£) or more. Result, misery and emigration to more capitalistic climes where the living was easy.

The lemass years were socialist? They were anti free trade were they?