lost my faith.

gsxr1

hi.

I would not usually visit this end of the forum but I have a feeling of unease with my beliefs and would like some input.

I was brought up a catholic but for the last 10 years have found the whole subject of Christ hard to believe.

This in turn has destroyed any relationship I had with God. I only attend mass at funerals or weddings . As I listen to the priest talk I keep thinking to myself. And please excuse me for this, "how the hell does he know what he is talking about".

is this just me? or does any one else feel this way.

Scofflaw

gsxr1 wrote: »

hi.

I would not usually visit this end of the forum but I have a feeling of unease with my beliefs and would like some input.

I was brought up a catholic but for the last 10 years have found the whole subject of Christ hard to believe.

This in turn has destroyed any relationship I had with God. I only attend mass at funerals or weddings . As I listen to the priest talk I keep thinking to myself. And please excuse me for this, "how the hell does he know what he is talking about".

is this just me? or does any one else feel this way.

Most of the atheists here?

cordially,
Scofflaw

BrianCalgary

Which beliefs are you uneasy about?

Would you like this to be a Christian only response thread?

Run_to_da_hills

gsxr1 wrote: »

hi.

I would not usually visit this end of the forum but I have a feeling of unease with my beliefs and would like some input.

I was brought up a catholic but for the last 10 years have found the whole subject of Christ hard to believe.

This in turn has destroyed any relationship I had with God. I only attend mass at funerals or weddings . As I listen to the priest talk I keep thinking to myself. And please excuse me for this, "how the hell does he know what he is talking about".

is this just me? or does any one else feel this way.

As a biker did you ever think of meeting up with the CMA? (Christian Motorcycle Association) They meet every fourtnight in the city, used to be St Marks on Pierce St. Some of these guys would have origionally come from the RC, Some would be ex MC or MCC club members. Its an assocation so that membership would not effect being a member of another bike club. At the moment there is a bit of a despute with the DD's over their backpatch!.

kelly1

gsxr1 wrote: »

hi.

I would not usually visit this end of the forum but I have a feeling of unease with my beliefs and would like some input.

I was brought up a catholic but for the last 10 years have found the whole subject of Christ hard to believe.

This in turn has destroyed any relationship I had with God. I only attend mass at funerals or weddings . As I listen to the priest talk I keep thinking to myself. And please excuse me for this, "how the hell does he know what he is talking about".

is this just me? or does any one else feel this way.

Hello, could you elaborate on what it is about Christ that you're having trouble believing? Do you doubt He ever existed or doubt who He was and what He did?

God bless,
Noel.

robindch

gsxr1 wrote:

As I listen to the priest talk I keep thinking to myself. And please excuse me for this, "how the hell does he know what he is talking about". Is this just me? or does any one else feel this way.

I'd imagine that plenty of people feel this way, but that not all of them would have the courage to act if they arrive at an uncomfortable answer.

You may want to ask this question in parallel over in the A+A forum:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614

...and compare and contrast the answers you get between here and there.

gsxr1

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello, could you elaborate on what it is about Christ that you're having trouble believing? Do you doubt He ever existed or doubt who He was and what He did?

God bless,
Noel.

I do believe he existed and think his teachings are important and worthy.

but I cant get my head around him being the son of god with magical powers.

I admitted this to myself a few years back and feel very odd because of it.

Who am I to pray too in times of need if I don't believe in my own religion?
I still prey to god from time to time. But not to Jesus.

I dont know what way to bring my son up on this subject as it would be hypocritical for me to tell him to believe in the baby Jesus.

The priest at mass tells stories of how we should feel and act. But is this all not but a man made scenario we try and follow? As I said I dont mean to offend , and admire someone who can bring themselves to believe fully.

I wish I could.

gsxr1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

As a biker did you ever think of meeting up with the CMA? (Christian Motorcycle Association) They meet every fourtnight in the city, used to be St Marks on Pierce St. Some of these guys would have origionally come from the RC, Some would be ex MC or MCC club members. Its an assocation so that membership would not effect being a member of another bike club. At the moment there is a bit of a despute with the DD's over their backpatch!.

I dont think that would really be my cup of tea to be honest. I hardly attend any riders club meetings of my own at the moment . Hard to find time. thanks for your input.

its biking that brings this subject to my thoughts as recently I had a very near miss at great speed. Thought I was going to meet my maker there and then.

gsxr1

robindch wrote: »

I'd imagine that plenty of people feel this way, but that not all of them would have the courage to act if they arrive at an uncomfortable answer.

You may want to ask this question in parallel over in the A+A forum:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614

...and compare and contrast the answers you get between here and there.

I have read some post there but I think that would add more confusion as it seams both sides have a valid points on the subject.

The reason I post this her is that I want to be talked back into what I was taught as a kid. if that was possible.

Should I approach a priest?

Asiaprod

gsxr1 wrote: »

The reason I post this her is that I want to be talked back into what I was taught as a kid. if that was possible.

Should I approach a priest?

In light of the above, I am making this a Christian only response thread?
Thanks
Asia

Run_to_da_hills

gsxr1 wrote: »

I dont think that would really be my cup of tea to be honest. I hardly attend any riders club meetings of my own at the moment . Hard to find time. thanks for your input.

its biking that brings this subject to my thoughts as recently I had a very near miss at great speed. Thought I was going to meet my maker there and then.

Often God will use an incident such as a spill to make one come to their sences, You probably know the former president of the DDs, he became a born again Christian a few years ago and publicly announced it at the Man o War, he left the club shortly after that. I believe he backslid and was seen prospecting for the HA's in the North. About two months ago he was nearly killed with a neck injury when a van pulled out in front of him, I believe this was a strong message from the maker for him to get out of that sceen altogether and come back to his beliefs. Latest I heard is that he is making a remarkable recovey.

Scofflaw

Asiaprod wrote: »

The reason I post this her is that I want to be talked back into what I was taught as a kid. if that was possible.

Should I approach a priest?

In light of the above, I am making this a Christian only response thread?

In the light of which I will preemptively repent me of the joke I was going to make there.

The reason I post this her is that I want to be talked back into what I was taught as a kid. if that was possible.

I don't think it's ever possible to go back in terms of faith. One can can get back to what one believed, but not for the same reasons or in quite the same way. If you try to come again to a child-like faith, you will almost certainly be disappointed, because you are no longer a child, and there are plenty of reasons for an adult to have faith.

There are plenty of posters here who have gone through similar crises of faith, some of whom have come round to their original beliefs again, others who have not. It's worth talking to them, and maybe reading around your original beliefs, just to remind yourself that they're shared by millions of adults.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

Scofflaw wrote: »

In the light of which I will preemptively repent me of the joke I was going to make there.
Scofflaw

I am almost afraid to ask what it was:eek:

Scofflaw

Asiaprod wrote: »

I am almost afraid to ask what it was:eek:

Very wise, although it may well be funnier as a potential joke anyway.

cordially,
Scofflaw

kelly1

gsxr1 wrote: »

I do believe he existed and think his teachings are important and worthy.

but I cant get my head around him being the son of god with magical powers.

I admitted this to myself a few years back and feel very odd because of it.

Who am I to pray too in times of need if I don't believe in my own religion?
I still prey to god from time to time. But not to Jesus.

I dont know what way to bring my son up on this subject as it would be hypocritical for me to tell him to believe in the baby Jesus.

The priest at mass tells stories of how we should feel and act. But is this all not but a man made scenario we try and follow? As I said I dont mean to offend , and admire someone who can bring themselves to believe fully.

I wish I could.

Hello, you sound very sincere anyway. I have some idea how you feel as regards Jesus. There was a time several years ago when I got myself entanged in eastern religions/yoga/new-age and this did serious damage to my faith in Christ. The books I read told me that Jesus was just an ordinary man who managed to break free of the reincarnation cycle and achieved enlightenment and became one of the many "Spiritual Masters". I doubted just about everything that I was taught (very badly) about my Catholic faith and believed it just didn't have the answers to the questions I was asking at the time. But like you I prayed to God and not to Jesus.

Thanks be to God, I was converted after a trip to Lourdes (best week of my life!). I realized very quickly that what I had been looking for all that time was right there in front of me. I had been led astray and I felt hurt and realized just how much I had offended Jesus. It still hurts when I think about it.

Since Lourdes I made up for the lost time by educating myself in the faith and I can truly say it has been a major eye opener. I now understand what Jesus did for us and why He did it. I realize that Jesus' love for us is beyond description.

I don't mean to be condescending but would it help at all if I gave some explanation of how the Holy Trinity is one God in three persons? Do you understand how Jesus was conceived and how He is both God and Human at the same time?

Don't worry, I'm sure Jesus will draw you back to Himself since you sound genuine and you're asking an honest question.

God bless,
Noel.

kelly1

gsxr1 wrote: »

Should I approach a priest?

Yes, a good idea. I did after my conversion and found it very helpful.

jawlie

gsxr1 wrote: »

hi.

I would not usually visit this end of the forum but I have a feeling of unease with my beliefs and would like some input.

I was brought up a catholic but for the last 10 years have found the whole subject of Christ hard to believe.

This in turn has destroyed any relationship I had with God. I only attend mass at funerals or weddings . As I listen to the priest talk I keep thinking to myself. And please excuse me for this, "how the hell does he know what he is talking about".

is this just me? or does any one else feel this way.

It's hard to give advice to someone who has lost their faith, although I have come across countless Irish people who confuse Roman Catholicism with Christianity.

For me, the big leap was when I came to realise that the RCC is just one of hundreds of Christian Churches claiming to have a monopoly on interpreting Christ's message. I started to question some of their dogma and realised that some of it had nothing to do with Christ at all. All the way from paying them for indulgences (imagine what Christ would have had to say about that one), to the crusades, the institutional conspiracy they orchestrated to systematically break the law over child abuse, their hard line position forbidding any man to wear a piece of rubber on his penis (indeed, their whole obsession with sexual matters in the 20th century), and so on and on and on.

Many people I know have retained their Christianity while leaving behind the intolerant and breath taking hypocrisy of the RCC (and other churches), and most gain a stronger and more healthy form of Christianity, following Christ's teachings as opposed to following the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, which is not the same thing at all.

Perhaps this is some help to you?

Splendour

gsxr1 wrote: »

The reason I post this her is that I want to be talked back into what I was taught as a kid. if that was possible.
Should I approach a priest?

Hi gsxr1,
good to see you're questioning your faith. This is much healthier than simply nodding your head in agreement with what you heard as a child.
Just two things I would like to say to you about this; no one can 'talk' you into faith, this is a work of the Holy Spirit-not man. The second thing is, talk to a priest by all means but my advice would be to cut the middle man and go directly to the top i.e Jesus.If you are finding it difficult to pray at the moment, tell God this, He realises what your feeling and will listen to your heart.I will keep you in prayer.

Splendour

BrianCalgary

sebastianlieken wrote: »

wow, ur retarded

And you are banned.

BrianCalgary

So lets see what I have witnessed here this morning. Yesterday someone posts a very serious question looking for help.

A couple of posters ask for a bit of clarification in order to help.

Asiaprod than requests Christian Only responses, and to be fair I saw compassion in robins and scofflaws posts.

A side discussion takes place about bikers and accidents that have nothing to do with the OP.

Then Runtodahills and kelly1 get into a mudslinging contest and completely forget the reason that we are here on this thread. And wicknight happily joins in.

I am appaled. And all of you should be ashamed of yourselves in forgetting the person who is seeking help to get caught up in your petty rivalries.

Don't answer to this on this thread and get back to the topic of helping someone find their faith and where it should be directed.


gsxr you may want to PM someone or a few of us that you may feel comfortable chatting with. And I apologise for this demonstration. I am embarassed for the actions of my brothers and friends.

kelly1

Apologies Brian, I get a bit hot under the collar when people rush in trying to convert Catholics to other faiths.

BrianCalgary

gsxr1 wrote: »

I do believe he existed and think his teachings are important and worthy.

but I cant get my head around him being the son of god with magical powers..

It is difficult. But if Jesus were God He would have the ability to do such things.

gsxr1 wrote: »

I admitted this to myself a few years back and feel very odd because of it.

Who am I to pray too in times of need if I don't believe in my own religion?
I still prey to god from time to time. But not to Jesus..

Continue to pray to God. Jesus has given us the ability to approach God directly and not through a High Priest which was necessary in the Jewish tradtion before the coming of Christ.

gsxr1 wrote: »

I dont know what way to bring my son up on this subject as it would be hypocritical for me to tell him to believe in the baby Jesus..

Unfortunately Jesus portryaed as a baby is sad. His work was done as an adult and He was a rebel who wsent against the religious authorities of the time. The baby Jesus is only presented in two gospels. Try seeing Him as His story unfolds during His ministry. This is when He taught, argued and fought. Healed ans showed compassion.

gsxr1 wrote: »

The priest at mass tells stories of how we should feel and act. But is this all not but a man made scenario we try and follow? As I said I dont mean to offend , and admire someone who can bring themselves to believe fully.

I wish I could.

The priest is focussing on how we as Christians should act. Hopefully he is doing it to teach as Jesus taught. Read the Bible and get a handle on who Jesus was and what He did and what He taught.

I hope this helps.:)

JimiTime

Splendour wrote: »

Hi gsxr1,
good to see you're questioning your faith. This is much healthier than simply nodding your head in agreement with what you heard as a child.
Just two things I would like to say to you about this; no one can 'talk' you into faith, this is a work of the Holy Spirit-not man. The second thing is, talk to a priest by all means but my advice would be to cut the middle man and go directly to the top i.e Jesus.If you are finding it difficult to pray at the moment, tell God this, He realises what your feeling and will listen to your heart.I will keep you in prayer.

Splendour

You could do alot worse than listen to that advice. I'd recommend the above wholeheartedly also. If you have any questions, never be afraid of them. I remember sometimes feeling guilty for asking certain questions, like I was bad for doing it, but as long as you are honest you have absolutely nothing to fear. The answers i found lead me far away from catholocism, but my faith is stronger now than ever. I'm still asking and I'm still learning. Some of the posters here have been great in aiding that journey for me. Some not so great. I'm sure posters here would be more than happy to assist with any knowledge they have. People here like PDN and Wolfsbane are a wealth of knowledge and experience. You could do worse than to ask them questons. I have found them to be both patient and respectful, even when they completely disagree with my position.

May you be guided,
J.

gsxr1

Thank you for all your comments and suggestions.

I will take time to think about this. It feels like a breath of fresh air to read some of these comments.

Just reading these post has made me feel somewhat more enthusiastic about God again and how grateful I am to him (or her).

Especially since my 3 year old son is sitting here beside me .

The Christmas period may be a good time to start him on learning about what may be up there.



Still a long way to go

I have never talked to anyone about this and the anonymity of the Internet has made it easy to pose questions on such a personal level.

thank you.

kelly1

The thing to remember is that God will never force Himself into our lives. We need to invite Him.

So my advice would be to pray for faith and ask God to come into your life. If you do this, it will be the best thing you ever did, guaranteed.

Christian life is demanding at times but it's well worth the effort. You start by acknowledging that you're a sinner (we all are) and ask for God's forgiveness.
Pray that God will lead you into the truth. And the truth is there behind all the lies. Pray that God will keep you safe from sin because only sin keeps us from God. Nobody can love God and remain attached to sin at the same time.
God hates sin but loves the sinner.

This is a hard lesson to learn. Old habits die hard and it's a major struggle to overcome them. When you understand your weaknesses you can then deal with them with the help of God's grace. I've learned that it's only possible to be truly good with the help of God's grace and this takes humility to understand.

Reading and meditating upon the Word of God (especially the Gospel) is a wonderful way to develop a personal relationship with Christ. Read His words slowly and let them sink into your heart. Pray that the Holy Spirit will help you to understand scripture. Then ask yourself how does Jesus' words apply to me and then decide how to apply this to your life and what you're going to change. And this is the critical point. It's no good reading the word of God and leaving it aside. It has to be put into practice in order to grow spiritually.
We need to walk with Jesus daily in order to become like Him. This is a destiny.

When someone puts God at the centre of their lives, everything changes. The Holy Spirit consoles us to let us know we're on the right road. Even hardships and suffering is more bearable if we trust in Divine providence because God only does good to those whom He loves. God can and does withdraw consolation from us is He see that we love consolation more than Him.

There's a lot to learn but just take it one step at a time.

God bless you on your journey!
Noel.

Run_to_da_hills

Apologies Brian for getting carried away earlier. I would agree with Noel on this one, Christianity is like a door that can only open one way and that is from the inside, it cannot be forced on anyone, You have to invite God into your own life.

condra

I feel it is a little unfair that Christian moderators have decided that this should be a Christian only thread. Well more than a little unfair to be honest.

But anyway, I wont rant on about atheism, but what I will say (if permitted:mad:) is this:

gsxr1,

Regardless of any decisions you come to, please dont feel guilty for questioning your faith. I cant imagine a God who would want you to feel guilty for logical, critical thought.

The intelligence and maturity it takes to take a step outside the box and question things is, in my opinion, an admirable quality.

Have a great Christmas, and I hope Santy is good to your young son.

PS- If you really want to hear different sides to the "argument", please feel free to post in the Atheism section where hopefully the rest of us have more freedom of speech.

jawlie

kelly1 wrote: »

Apologies Brian, I get a bit hot under the collar when people rush in trying to convert Catholics to other faiths.

How about when "people" try to convert catholics to Christianity?

For me, Christianity is following Christ, and catholicism is about following the Roman Catholic faith.

Are you saying that Roman Catholicism is, for you, more important than Christianity?

Asiaprod

womoma wrote: »

I feel it is a little unfair that Christian moderators have decided that this should be a Christian only thread. Well more than a little unfair to be honest.

You are very free to ask the OP if they would like a non-christian response. I made it a Christian thread to give the OP a chance to hear the christian answer and to head off the obvious jokes that were bound to popup. Now that the thread has settled down, I am happy to open it to all.

condra

Reespekt.

PDN

womoma wrote: »

I feel it is a little unfair that Christian moderators have decided that this should be a Christian only thread. Well more than a little unfair to be honest.

I wonder how Asiaprod feels about being called a 'Christian' moderator?

kelly1

jawlie wrote: »

How about when "people" try to convert catholics to Christianity?

For me, Christianity is following Christ, and catholicism is about following the Roman Catholic faith.

Are you saying that Roman Catholicism is, for you, more important than Christianity?

You have no idea how wrong you are! The Catholic faith is totally Christ centered. I believe the Catholic Church is the same Church founded by Christ and I can prove from the bible that Jesus told us to follow the Church for guidance.

Asiaprod

PDN wrote: »

I wonder how Asiaprod feels about being called a 'Christian' moderator?

He was indeed worrying about that one.
*Takes it with a pinch of salt, and pops off to burn a box of incense just in case*

Zombrex

gsxr1 wrote: »

Who am I to pray too in times of need if I don't believe in my own religion?
I still prey to god from time to time. But not to Jesus.

I dont know what way to bring my son up on this subject as it would be hypocritical for me to tell him to believe in the baby Jesus.

Now that the thread is open to all again I will repost my original point

Gsxr if you believe in "God" (ie the Judeo-Christian god) but are having trouble with the idea that Jesus is the son of God, then possibly you should have a look at other religions that worship the same God, namely Judaism and Islam.

Jews believe that Jesus was a false/fake prophet, one of many prophesied in the Old Testament.

Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God. Instead his message has been corrupted by Christians into something it wasn't.

So I suppose my point would be that you don't need to feel that if you don't believe in Jesus you can't believe in God.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Jews believe that Jesus was a false/fake prophet, one of many prophesied in the Old Testament.

The Old Testament prophesied about only ONE Messiah and Jesus is that Messiah.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

The Old Testament prophesied about only ONE Messiah and Jesus is that Messiah.

TBH Kelly I got in trouble with the mod for "happily joining in" by answering you last time so you will excuse me if I don't respond beyond saying what you probably already know, the Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah, they do not believe that the messiah has come yet and that when he comes that will be it, he won't go away and come back.

A debate over whether or not Jesus is the Jewish messiah would no doubt be interesting, but probably belongs in a different thread.

The point I am making the OP is that if he does not accept Jesus as the son of God that does not mean he has to abandon his entire faith in God. As the Jews and the Muslims demonstrate, the two things are only connected for Christians.

Run_to_da_hills

Wicknight wrote: »

Jews believe that Jesus was a false/fake prophet, one of many prophesied in the Old Testament.

Not all Jews reject the Messiah, there is well over one million Messianic Jews in the world. http://www.messianic.com/articles/basics.htm

lucyburn

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Not all Jews reject the Messiah, there is well over one million Messianic Jews in the world. http://www.messianic.com/articles/basics.htm

I never knew that.
That is a very interesting article.

jawlie

kelly1 wrote: »

You have no idea how wrong you are! The Catholic faith is totally Christ centered. I believe the Catholic Church is the same Church founded by Christ and I can prove from the bible that Jesus told us to follow the Church for guidance.

The point about belief is that we can all believe what we want to believe. Are you honestly saying that it is your belief that Jesus would have wanted us all to follow the RCC's lead on, for one example, torturing and then burning alive human beings who the RCC decreed were heretics? I'd be very interested to hear your logic for how Jesus approves of those actions. I could give countless other examples, but on another thread you didn't respond. I wonder why not?

Additionally, if the RCC's actions are at variance with the teaching of Jesus from the Bible ( for instance their instutional cover of of child sex abusing members of the RCC and continuing to place them in positions where they perpetuated their disgusting and immoral acts against children), are you saying that Jesus would want us to take the RCC'c position as to what he would want ( ie instutional cover up and continuing abuse) or the example he gave us and position he set out in the New testament?

kelly1

jawlie wrote: »

The point about belief is that we can all believe what we want to believe. Are you honestly saying that it is your belief that Jesus would have wanted us all to follow the RCC's lead on, for one example, torturing and then burning alive human beings who the RCC decreed were heretics? I'd be very interested to hear your logic for how Jesus approves of those action. I could give countless other examples, but on another thread you didn't respond. I wonder why not?

Additionally, if the RCC's actions are at variance with the teaching of Jesus from the Bible ( for instance their instutional cover of of child sex abusing members of the RCC and continuing to place them in positions where they perpetuated their disgusting and immoral acts against children, are you saying that Jesus would want us to take the RCC'c position as to what he would want ( ie instutional cover up and continuing abuse) or the position he set out in the New testament?

Please (if you really want to) open a new thread with specific questions. I'm not hijacking this thread.

jawlie

kelly1 wrote: »

Please (if you really want to) open a new thread with specific questions. I'm not hijacking this thread.

As I suspected, you didn't answer the points. It's interesting you are prepared to make points in this thread (with no hint that you feel you are hijacking it) , but when asked to explain the points you ahve made, you claim you are unable to answer due to hijacking of the thread.

JohnnyBravo

Maybe Hinduism is the way to go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle

kelly1

jawlie wrote: »

As I suspected, you didn't answer the points. It's interesting you are prepared to make points in this thread (with no hint that you feel you are hijacking it) , but when asked to explain the points you ahve made, you claim you are unable to answer due to hijacking of the thread.

Look, you started the attack with this:

"I have come across countless Irish people who confuse Roman Catholicism with Christianity". That is an open insult to all Catholics and Christ.

If you want points answered, please open a new thread.

BrianCalgary

I agree with kelly1. Feel free to post your question to all Christians in a new thread.

And DO NOT break the charter by slamming a particular denomination.

condra

I wonder what happened to gsxr1...

Splendour

Hi gsxr1,

have just been having a look at a website which might be of interest to you; lookingforgod.com Some of it is a bit twee but it explains Christianity in way which is easy to understand. Couple of stories of how people came to faith are interesting-I particularly liked Bobby Ball's story as it's open and real. ( Bobby was awell know British comedian in the 80's-in case you're too young to remember!)

And though going to church certainly does not 'make' you a Christian, it's no harm to attend church for support and to hear God's word with others.Maybe have a scroll through the 'Church thread' to see if any near you.

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

"I have come across countless Irish people who confuse Roman Catholicism with Christianity". That is an open insult to all Catholics and Christ.

It is indeed an insult to Catholics, and probably contrary to the charter, but I hardly think it is an insult to Christ.

jawlie

kelly1 wrote: »

Look, you started the attack with this:

"I have come across countless Irish people who confuse Roman Catholicism with Christianity". That is an open insult to all Catholics and Christ.

If you want points answered, please open a new thread.

I am sorry you feel that to question, with specific examples, is an insult. I believe in rigorous debate and rigorous examination of all denominations and points of view. I understand that you feel protective of the RCC, as your chosen faith, and further understand that you are uncomfortable with some facts. But facts are facts and, uncomfortable or not, need to be explored.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I agree with kelly1. Feel free to post your question to all Christians in a new thread.

And DO NOT break the charter by slamming a particular denomination.

I agree and would never “slam” a particular denomination, and what interests me is to learn how one can reconcile an organisations history, and decisions made by an institution, ( in this case a decision by the RCC to torture and murder humans) with it’s claim to be Christian. This specifically seems, to me, to be diametrically opposed to all of Christ’s teachings, and I am genuinely interested to know how this can be explained to be in keeping with the example set by Christ.

PDN wrote: »

It is indeed an insult to Catholics, and probably contrary to the charter, but I hardly think it is an insult to Christ.

If members of the RCC feel insulted to have some of its past decisions and actions mentioned, then so be it.

I suppose my point is that to claim the RCC is the only Church able to claim that it is carrying out Christ's message sits uncomfortably with some of its actions, and to imagine Christ would look for excuses, and not condemn unreservedly, these human outrages is unbelievable.

On a human level, it is understandable that any organisation follows a similar path, and the path is that it starts out with high ideals and noble desires, but very soon the desire to protect itself and perpetuate itself takes precedence with the original aims. This happens everywhere, from governments (think of the EU, for example, or our own government whose first instinct is to cover up and excuse its member’s transgressions, rather than to be open and transparent. For example, the fraud in the EU means that its accounts have not been signed off or audited for years and years, because the fraud and waste is too embarrassing for it to acknowledge – its more important to protect the institution and cover up, than be honest and accountable to the people (us) to whom it is supposed to be accountable, and anyone within who tries to expose this is dealt with very severely indeed.

I think that it is silly to claim that the RCC is a the only way, or the best way, to follow the example of Christ, due to this same desire to protect itself which takes precedence over what Christ taught us from the Bible. The Bible is there for us all to read and find out for ourselves, which is the point of it. It was never intended to take second place to the RCC’s interpretation of the Bible, especially when one thinks of, for example, the Crusades, indulgences, and the cover up of the child sex abuse scandals.

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

I hardly think it is an insult to Christ.

It is if you believe that the CC is the same Church founded by Christ.

philologos

kelly1 wrote: »

It is if you believe that the CC is the same Church founded by Christ.

This argument never ends with a satisfactory conclusion so I think it'd be best to leave it.

JimiTime

Jakkass wrote: »

This argument never ends with a satisfactory conclusion so I think it'd be best to leave it.

Just as a matter of curiosity, what would be a satisfactory conclusion?