Why can't Ireland join the Commonwealth?

fjon

This probably has a fairly easy answer, but I really don't know much about it.
I was wondering why Ireland is not allowed join the Commonwealth of Nations?
According the London Declaration Republics are entitled to join (including India and Ireland). So why are India allowed join and we aren't?
By the way I'm not saying we should or shouldn't, but just wondering why - this came up in a pub discussion, and I'm just curious.

Guy:Incognito

Are we actually not allowed or do we just not want to?

the_syco

**mutter**Bloody D4 wannabe Brit**mutter**

her acceptance of the King as the symbol of the free association of its independent member nations and as such the Head of the Commonwealth

I don't see Ireland taking the king as the leader, and if a government ever does, they'll get shot (literally).

fjon

I was under the impression that we were not allowed, however I could be wrong on this!
Perhaps we were not allowed in 1949, but the criteria for admission has since changed?

fjon

the_syco wrote: »

**mutter**Bloody D4 wannabe Brit**mutter**


I don't see Ireland taking the king as the leader, and if a government ever does, they'll get shot (literally).

Ah hang on - there's a difference between the 16 Commonwealth Realms that still have the Queen/ King as their head of state, and the other 37 nations which don't! It was the latter I was refering to.

Commonwealth Realms
Commonwealth of Nations

silverharp

the_syco wrote: »

**mutter**Bloody D4 wannabe Brit**mutter**

now now , lay off D4, living there does not make anyone less Irish. However you have got to hand it too the Victorian ascendancy, they knew how to lay out some great areas like Sandymount!

fjon

Since when is Sandyford in D4 ?

garthv

Why the hell would we want to?
Don't you remember the blood sweat and tears of 1916?

Fratton Fred

Ireland can join the commonwealth if it wants to, there is no obligation to take the Queen as head of state and the commonwealth is a consortium of equals, Britain is not the automatic head.

It would, however, be political suicide for any politician to ever suggest it, so it aint gonna happen.

mike65

Éamonn Ó Cuív survived the suggestion Fred.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mp-calls-for-ireland-to-join-commonwealth-1043588.html

Mike.

Time Magazine

garthv wrote: »

Why the hell would we want to?
Don't you remember the blood sweat and tears of 1916?

Well I wasn't around personally, but that had nothing to do with the Commonwealth.

Dylan_James

I think article 6 of Bunreacht na hÉireann or the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland might resolve this:

Article 6

1. All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people, whose right it is to designate the rulers of the State and, in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good.

2. These powers of government are exercisable only by or on the authority of the organs of State established by this Constitution.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/static/256.htm

No other institution apart from the Dáil and Senate can make laws for Ireland, thats why we have to vote on all of them European treaties. Who is going to vote to be accepted back into the Commonwealth?

Fratton Fred

Dylan_James wrote: »

I think article 6 of Bunreacht na hÉireann or the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland might resolve this:

Article 6

1. All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people, whose right it is to designate the rulers of the State and, in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good.

2. These powers of government are exercisable only by or on the authority of the organs of State established by this Constitution.

No other body apart from the Dáil and Senate can make laws for Ireland, thats why we have to vote on all of them European treaties. In other words "foreigners fudge off" was what ole Dev was saying.

I love our secular country, is this why he catholic church makes half the rules here.

Joining the commonwealth would not affect that in anyway. The EU infringes those points more than the commonwealth would.

Time Magazine

Dylan_James wrote: »

I think article 6 of Bunreacht na hÉireann or the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland might resolve this

Really?

Then how come we were in the Commonwealth for twelve years after enacting our constitution?

galwayrush

It could be a big step for unity with the North.

Time Magazine

There was a thirteen page thread on this six months ago, btw.

purple'n'gold

galwayrush wrote: »

It could be a big step for unity with the North.

I think if there is ever going to be unity with the north (unlikely in the medium to short term) it would be a prerequisite for us to be members of the commonwealth. But, by the time Ireland is unified, the commonwealth will probably be only a quaint memory.

Tricity Bendix

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ireland can join the commonwealth if it wants to, there is no obligation to take the Queen as head of state and the commonwealth is a consortium of equals, Britain is not the automatic head.

It would, however, be political suicide for any politician to ever suggest it, so it aint gonna happen.

The head of the commonwealth does not have to be a British monarch. Once Queenie kicks the bucket, it is up to the commonwealth to decide who the next head will be. It could be a great opening, should Ireland wish to rejoin.

fjon

As far as I understand it, there is no head of the Commonwealth. Certain countries are in Commonwealth and happen to have the Queen as head of state (the 16 Commonwealth realms), while the 37 other commonwelath countries have nothing to do with the Queen, which if we ever even considered joinining is what Ireland would most likely do too.

SeanW

There's nothing stopping us from looking to rejoin the British Commonwealth AFAIK, but why in f@#k would we want to?

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I love our secular country, is this why he catholic church makes half the rules here.

who ever said Ireland was secular? At least the head of the church is not the ruler of the country.

Also regards the commonwealth, we were already in it, we decided to leave it OP. I think a more pertinent question is why you would want to join it, seeing as the EU provides more in the way of trade benefits and the like than the commonwealth.

mike65

Ireland would'nt have to leave the EU!

Mike.

Rhiannon14

Wow for a second I thought you meant the Commonwealth of Massachusetts But that's just me thinking everything revolves around my state. :rolleyes:

brianthebard

mike65 wrote: »

Ireland would'nt have to leave the EU!

Mike.

Never suggested that it would have to, what I'm saying is that the EU provides all the benefits of the commonwealth and then some, we have very little to gain by being a member of the commonwealth imo.

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

who ever said Ireland was secular? At least the head of the church is not the ruler of the country.

Also regards the commonwealth, we were already in it, we decided to leave it OP. I think a more pertinent question is why you would want to join it, seeing as the EU provides more in the way of trade benefits and the like than the commonwealth.

I thought it was in the constitution, Wiki has Ireland down as secular as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state#Europe.

IMO, Britain is not a secular state but behaves like one, Ireland is secular but doesn't behave like one.

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I thought it was in the constitution, Wiki has Ireland down as secular as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state#Europe.

IMO, Britain is not a secular state but behaves like one, Ireland is secular but doesn't behave like one.

Ireland isn't secular, the constitution says that all religions are to be treated equal in the state, but there are special references to God and the trinity

constitution wrote:

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred......Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,

does that sound like a secular way to begin a document?

Edit: Wikipedia is not a definitive answer, the constitution text is easily available from the taoiseach's website, decide for yourself if its secular or not.

Tricity Bendix

fjon wrote: »

As far as I understand it, there is no head of the Commonwealth. Certain countries are in Commonwealth and happen to have the Queen as head of state (the 16 Commonwealth realms), while the 37 other commonwelath countries have nothing to do with the Queen, which if we ever even considered joinining is what Ireland would most likely do too.

see here.

Mr.Micro

Ireland is not secular. Religion still has its grip on all matters if not overtly in places but certainly covertly like an undercurrent.

djpbarry

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I love our secular country, is this why he catholic church makes half the rules here.

They don't - God does .

brianthebard wrote: »

I think a more pertinent question is why you would want to join it, seeing as the EU provides more in the way of trade benefits and the like than the commonwealth.

Would the commonwealth not provide trade benefits with nations outside the EU?

Mr.Micro

I think Ireland should join the commonwealth if it was of benefit to us as a nation .Move forward .Too many negative reasons for letting the past dictate the future .

moe_sizlak

we were members of the commonwealth untill we became the republic of ireland in 1949
im not a sinn fein voter , im not any party in particular but i see no reasons why we should join that out of date orginisation other than we might win a few commonwealth medals as the usa or germany france and china dont partake
to me , being in the commonwealth is a form of subserviance to the british monarch and the british monarch is the head of the commonwealth nations like australia or canada or newzealand , she may not be head of india but they are still in the commonwealth so that one i can explain

i do not suffer from enough of an inferiority complex to personally want to be a member of the commonwealth and i would hope the majority of my countrymen would feel the same way

no offence queenie

the_syco

The north can join us, not the other way around...

Kill the queen.

SeanW

moe_sizlak wrote: »

we were members of the commonwealth untill we became the republic of ireland in 1949
im not a sinn fein voter , im not any party in particular but i see no reasons why we should join that out of date orginisation other than we might win a few commonwealth medals as the usa or germany france and china dont partake
to me , being in the commonwealth is a form of subserviance to the british monarch and the british monarch is the head of the commonwealth nations like australia or canada or newzealand , she may not be head of india but they are still in the commonwealth so that one i can explain

i do not suffer from enough of an inferiority complex to personally want to be a member of the commonwealth and i would hope the majority of my countrymen would feel the same way

no offence queenie

Hammer, nail and head.

LordSutch

I forsee the Republic re-joining the Commonwealth as part of a 'final solution' in the possible impossible? political Unification of this island!

In the event of a majority in the North voting to leave the UK, I could see the Unionists agreeing to some form of union with the South on the understanding that this islands Britishness is maintained and recognised!

The commonwealth is where we should be, and is where we hould have been since we departed in 1949 ...............

SeanW

Why?

ivan087

ArthurF wrote: »

I forsee the Republic re-joining the Commonwealth as part of a 'final solution' in the possible impossible? political Unification of this island!

In the event of a majority in the North voting to leave the UK, I could see the Unionists agreeing to some form of union with the South on the understanding that this islands Britishness is maintained and recognised!

The commonwealth is where we should be, and is where we hould have been since we departed in 1949 ...............

oh will ya stop it. most irish people down south do not consider ourselves british. it must be your dream. but dream on mate.

im not anti-british but it really annoys me when people like you go on about maintaining our britishness. yes there are some people who have british links. but as far as i am aware there are people in america with irish links, people in austria with german links, etc.

ireland is an independent nation who has no wish joining an old empire club.
yes ireland was invaided and forced to be in the UK. Thankfully for the benefit of the south we are doing fine.

Erin Go Brath

ArthurF wrote: »

I forsee the Republic re-joining the Commonwealth as part of a 'final solution' in the possible impossible? political Unification of this island!

In the event of a majority in the North voting to leave the UK, I could see the Unionists agreeing to some form of union with the South on the understanding that this islands Britishness is maintained and recognised!

I actually agree with you here. The will to join the Commonwealth isn't here, but as, and only as a token gesture to Unionists as part of joining a UI, I could see it becoming a reality.

Fratton Fred

moe_sizlak wrote: »

we were members of the commonwealth untill we became the republic of ireland in 1949
im not a sinn fein voter , im not any party in particular but i see no reasons why we should join that out of date orginisation other than we might win a few commonwealth medals as the usa or germany france and china dont partake
to me , being in the commonwealth is a form of subserviance to the british monarch and the british monarch is the head of the commonwealth nations like australia or canada or newzealand , she may not be head of india but they are still in the commonwealth so that one i can explain

i do not suffer from enough of an inferiority complex to personally want to be a member of the commonwealth and i would hope the majority of my countrymen would feel the same way

no offence queenie

I think you've been watching the tudors too much.

Check your calender, this is the 21st century

luckylucky

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think you've been watching the tudors too much.

Check your calender, this is the 21st century

Exactly it's the 21st century so why the hell would we want to go back to being part of a group which is the semblance of the remnant of an empire that thankfully it's time has ended which we were treated terribly(understatement if there ever was one) under.

I really think British people living in Ireland should actually do a little study into Irish history. Some of the things you guys come out with really makes me think you guys know very little besides that Britain was a bit 'naughty' in Ireland in the past. Your kind of attitude that it was no big deal, just forget about it....I'll tell you something if Britain had done to them by another country what you did to us you'd be no where near as forgiving about it as we have been. No way.

For those Irish who are in any way knowledgable of Irish history and no this doesn't make us terrorist sympathisers would find even the suggestion of being part of the commonwealth offensive,we paid a heavy price in blood in finally throwing off the monarchy and we don't want a refund thanks. I'd rather be part of the Russian Federation to put it bluntly.

luckylucky

ArthurF wrote: »

I forsee the Republic re-joining the Commonwealth as part of a 'final solution' in the possible impossible? political Unification of this island!

In the event of a majority in the North voting to leave the UK, I could see the Unionists agreeing to some form of union with the South on the understanding that this islands Britishness is maintained and recognised!

The commonwealth is where we should be, and is where we hould have been since we departed in 1949 ...............

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I actually agree with you here. The will to join the Commonwealth isn't here, but as, and only as a token gesture to Unionists as part of joining a UI, I could see it becoming a reality.

Lmfao, c'mon get a reality check. Northern Unionists want little or nothing to do with us period, when I was kid growing up our sh1tty economy was one of the reasons cited why they didn't want to be part of us, that reason has gone, the other reason is the catholicism of the republic, religion in the south these days has waned a lot and is less of a valid reason.

If tomorrow we all converted to the free Presbyterian Church and offered presidency of Ireland to Ian Paisley and made Rhoda Paisley the Queen of Ireland they would say oh that's nice but they still would not want a United Ireland.

While personally I would want a United Ireland I don't want one at all costs, I don't want to be part of the UK again that's for sure. If it meant a United Ireland I'm not sure would I go for this commonwealth thing either, I'd have to think about it but either way it would make not the slightest difference imo, so the question is moot.

I think at this stage, barring a nationalist majority occuring in the North, United Ireland is a pipe dream, about the only thing that can be realistically hoped for is improved relations between different communities on this island.

djpbarry

luckylucky wrote: »

I really think British people living in Ireland should actually do a little study into Irish history. Some of the things you guys come out with really makes me think you guys know very little besides that Britain was a bit 'naughty' in Ireland in the past. Your kind of attitude that it was no big deal, just forget about it....I'll tell you something if Britain had done to them by another country what you did to us you'd be no where near as forgiving about it as we have been.

How exactly were you mistreated by the British?

luckylucky

djpbarry wrote: »

How exactly were you mistreated by the British?

Stupid question deserves a stupid reply.

djpbarry

luckylucky wrote: »

Stupid question deserves a stupid reply.

It was a perfectly valid question. Neither myself, nor any member of my family or friends were ever mistreated in any way by "The British". Whatever happened 100 years ago has little to do with me.

CerebralCortex

djpbarry wrote: »

It was a perfectly valid question. Neither myself, nor any member of my family or friends were ever mistreated in any way by "The British". Whatever happened 100 years ago has little to do with me.

Still doesn't make joining the commonwealth any more relevant.

luckylucky

djpbarry wrote: »

It was a perfectly valid question. Neither myself, nor any member of my family or friends were ever mistreated in any way by "The British". Whatever happened 100 years ago has little to do with me.

This attitude is perhaps exactly why we were a subjucate people for 800 years.

I'll tell you why it was a stupid question, would you ask a Jew, what did the Germans ever do to you.

You'd probably get a smack in the face and more if you did.

Think that's an extreme example, would you ask a Pole what did the Russians ever do to you

Ask a 'British' person what did the French ever do to them then, they have a pathological hatred of them for a lot less reason than we would have for feeling the same way about the British(whom i don't hate btw, my wife is English for one thing - I just think our past with them is not a trivial one that I would want to sign up to the West Brit club), while with us they don't hate us they just don't respect us and I can see why. :rolleyes:

oscarBravo

luckylucky wrote: »

Ask a 'British' person what did the French ever do to them then, they have a pathological hatred of them...

Most 'British' (why the danger quotes, btw?) people I know (and I know quite a few) don't have any kind of hatred of the French, let alone pathological. There are some who do, but they're the kind I generally write off as ignorant xenophobes.

Go figure.

djpbarry

luckylucky wrote: »

would you ask a Jew, what did the Germans ever do to you.

I might if the situation called for it. I don't believe a person has the right to feel victimised because their "people" were mistreated in the past. Everyone is an individual. If they were mistreated themselves then fair enough.

luckylucky wrote: »

Ask a 'British' person what did the French ever do to them then, they have a pathological hatred of them for a lot less reason than we would have for feeling the same way about the British

Nonsense. My wife is British and I have plenty of British friends. I do not recall any of them ever stating that they hated the French.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Most 'British' (why the danger quotes, btw?) people I know (and I know quite a few) don't have any kind of hatred of the French, let alone pathological. There are some who do, but they're the kind I generally write off as ignorant xenophobes.

Agreed.

The Chessplayer

The Commonwealth is old hat. We're in the EU. The British Empire is old hat. Wise up!

Fratton Fred

I was wondering how long this would go before "800 Years" was mentioned.

I'm curious why the Irish think they are so different to the South Africans, the Kenyans, the Indians or the decendants of slaves now living in various Caribbean countries who were also subject to the same sort of treatment (and in most cases a lot lot worse) the Irish were but for some reason are happy to be in the Commonwealth.

Maybe they don't know the meaning of the term begrudgery:rolleyes:

By the way, The Irish moan about 800, which really is 400 because Ireland didn't come under full British rule until Cromwell. Engalnd first got invaded by the French 1000 years ago and apart from saving their arses a couple of times in the early half of the last century, we have been at war ever since, so of course we hate them, we have more right to hate them than the irish do the English....don't we?;)

By the way, Join the commonwealth if you like, I doubt anyone in Britain gives a monkey's wotsit and I'm pretty sure the Queen isn't losing any sleep over it, but all you really get is the chance to be beaten by the Aussies in yet another sporting event every four years, that's the only thing Britain gets out of it anyway.

luckylucky

djpbarry wrote: »

I might if the situation called for it. I don't believe a person has the right to feel victimised because their "people" were mistreated in the past. Everyone is an individual. If they were mistreated themselves then fair enough.
.

Yes your point has validity if we talk about individuals, we are talking political entities here. Why would Ireland as a country want to be part of something that has historical links to something which was a long bad part of our not too distant past.

djpbarry wrote: »

Nonsense. My wife is British and I have plenty of British friends. I do not recall any of them ever stating that they hated the French.

I'll admit hate is too strong a word, over emphasis on my part.... anyway The English dislike the French as a rule and I call BS if you know so many English and have never heard any English person say they don't like the French. I lived in Manchester for 4 years and I have heard the dislike of the French spoken umpteen times, I would say the French and The Welsh competed for top spot in The English dislike stakes.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm curious why the Irish think they are so different to the South Africans, the Kenyans, the Indians or the decendants of slaves now living in various Caribbean countries who were also subject to the same sort of treatment (and in most cases a lot lot worse) the Irish were but for some reason are happy to be in the Commonwealth.
.

Well you actually probably did a lot of good in those countries you mentioned, improved infrastructure etc.

Also being part of the commonwealth was probably good economically for your ex colonies.

At the end of the day that is their business anyway.

The commonwealth for me is the remnant of a self serving empire, like all empires it did some good but doing good wasn't its overall purpose, I think like the vast majority of Southern Irish people it represents something we wanted free of and I for one want nothing to do with it.

moe_sizlak

this thread is very much getting off topic , its about us rejoining the commonwealth , none of my family have suffered under the british but that doesnt make want to be in the commonwealth , none of my family suffered under the taliban , doesnt mean i want to give up eating pork

i dont think that reunification with the north will ever hinge on us rejoining the commonwealth , i think a united ireland is at least 50 yrs away and that is probably no bad thing , ian paisleys sons nephews pet goldfish will have to have passed on 1st
the commonwealth is a throwback to the days of empire and i for one have zero time for paying hommage to any kind of monarch anway
it has no value other than in some sort of phoney unity once every 4 yrs when crap runners from england have a chance of winning a medal agaisnt crap runners from new zealand in the nothing event that is the commonwealth games
oh yeah and rte would have to show the queens speech at 3pm on christmas day when its already hard enough to hold down the sprouts