Microsoft Starts New Ban Wave on LIVE Against Modified Firmwares

Kazu

>> We don't have a lot of information yet (it just started, but we try to warn you all as early as possible), but it looks like Microsoft started a new wave of bans against modified DVD firmwares or DVD+/-R DL discs.
Several users on our forums and on IRC report their Xbox 360 has been banned from LIVE today. We get reports of Toshiba-Samsung and Hitachi-LG drives banned with both Xtreme and even the newer iXtreme firmwares. However we also see many reports of people who are currently on LIVE and have no been banned (yet). No reports of banned BenQ drives yet (but few of these drives have been flashed yet).
We don't know yet if Microsoft is detecting the modified firmware or the discs (or maybe only with a specific game?).
If you have the 'Z Code' 8015-190D it means you are banned. As always Microsoft bans the console serial from LIVE, not your LIVE account.
If your console is banned or if you have been playing on LIVE today with modified FW without getting banned, report you findings in this thread (include at least your live status, full drive model (swapped drive?, spoofing?) and firmware version used).

So until we have more info we HIGHLY suggest you don't log in to Xbox LIVE and don't play any games from DVD+/-R DL (even offline, incase MS flags something) if you have a flashed DVD drive.

coolhandc

shouldnt have them in the first place.good enuf for yez

tman

Or just stop being a dirty pirate and just buy your games and use an unmodified console if you want to use live... can't have your cake and eat it too

Fingleberries

As a mighty philospher once said:

Nelson Muntz wrote:

Ha! Ha!

Guess all that shady stuff doesn't really pay in the long term. Don't think there's a lot of sympathy out there.

Helix

im happy enough with having a flashed, banned 360

mainly coz i have a ps3 for online games, but still

it also allows quality control, in that ill buy whatever i think is really good for the ps3 anyway and i can avoid dodgy purchases by playing them first on the 360 and seeing if theyre worth buying or not

ongarite

So are you saying you download illegal copies of game to try them out on 360 then if they're good enough buy them for PS3?
Thats a kind of flawed logic? Why not rent it or read some reviews, opinions on it?

brianon

Helix wrote: »

im happy enough with having a flashed, banned 360

mainly coz i have a ps3 for online games, but still

it also allows quality control, in that ill buy whatever i think is really good for the ps3 anyway and i can avoid dodgy purchases by playing them first on the 360 and seeing if theyre worth buying or not

I love when people say that. I even say it myself. "I download music yeah but you know if I like it I buy it".

Bullsh*t
Maybe some small percentage of people do. Maybe! But for most, they will just d/l the games and never buy.

Retr0gamer

Have no sympathy, the only reason to have a flashed 360 is to play illegal copies of games.

Helix

brianon wrote: »

I love when people say that. I even say it myself. "I download music yeah but you know if I like it I buy it".

Bullsh*t

ive had my ps3 a month and i have 12 games

trust me, if i like it and theres decent multiplayer or online aspects, ill buy it

also, for the record i dont pay for music, ever. nor do i charge for mine, ever

Helix

ongarite wrote: »

So are you saying you download illegal copies of game to try them out on 360 then if they're good enough buy them for PS3?
Thats a kind of flawed logic? Why not rent it or read some reviews, opinions on it?

dont really see how its flawed logic tbh

reviews are untrustworthy for the most part, and renting costs money

granted if a mate has a game im interested ill just get a lend of it off him and save the 7gb download

brianon

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Have no sympathy, the only reason to have a flashed 360 is to play illegal copies of games.

You saying you've never burnt the odd Dreamcast or Saturn game ?

Retr0gamer

brianon wrote: »

You saying you've never burnt the odd Dreamcast or Saturn game ?

I'd always make sure my money is going towards the developers or publishers. There's no way I could justify giving 250 euro to some random ebay seller for some obscure game especially when it's not going to the industry. It's also sometimes the only way you can get your hands on games since they just can't be found nowadays. If I find it at a decent price I'll pay for it.

There's no point arguing that pirating new games on a new system is the same.

coolhandc

Helix wrote: »

for the record i dont pay for music, ever. nor do i charge for mine, ever

well i get the impression that no one would actually pay for your "music" either!

brianon

Retr0gamer wrote: »

There's no point arguing that pirating new games on a new system is the same.

Was only kiddin'

mcgovern

brianon wrote: »

I love when people say that. I even say it myself. "I download music yeah but you know if I like it I buy it".

Bullsh*t
Maybe some small percentage of people do. Maybe! But for most, they will just d/l the games and never buy.

Well I don't have a modded 360 or intend on getting one, but I do download TV shows and Music.
If its good, I'll buy it.
Hence why I have unopened boxsets of BSG S1 +S2, Rome etc and CDs that have never been in a player yet I've listened to them 50 times.

Games, CDs, DVDs etc cost too much these days to write it off if its a load of $h!t.

MrVestek

Aye that's very true. Personally though I've no sympathy whatsoever.

the_god_swan

Personally i do own a modded 360 and i couldnt care less about this wave of bans becasuse thats an attribute that goes with setting up the 360 to play back-up games.
I understand many people love playing on Live, for me I never got into it. I am happy enough playing at home alone or with flatmates.

Also there is no-one (so far) on this thread with a modded 360 complaining about being banned so all the 'can't have your cake and eat it too' comments are unneccessary I say.

Would I reverse time and un-mod my machine?? Hell no :rolleyes:

Helix

coolhandc wrote: »

well i get the impression that no one would actually pay for your "music" either!

the labels ive had releases on would beg to differ im sure

ongarite

You should check out Xbox-Scene then. The thread on the ban-hammer there is very funny. Most are in total denial that they have done anything woring and its all MS money grabbing fault.

the_god_swan

ongarite wrote: »

You should check out Xbox-Scene then. The thread on the ban-hammer there is very funny. Most are in total denial that they have done anything woring and its all MS money grabbing fault.

Yeah i seen that Ongarite, and these people need to put the scenario into perspective. But here luckily people are more accepting and rightly so.

tman

Helix wrote: »

also, for the record i dont pay for music, ever. nor do i charge for mine, ever

Didn't you put some kind of copy protection in your kernkraft 400 remix? seems that you do mind people stealing your music whether you like to admit it here or not...

Helix

tman wrote: »

Didn't you put some kind of copy protection in your kernkraft 400 remix? seems that you do mind people stealing your music whether you like to admit it here or not...

nah i just distorted it a bit so that if people wanted a good quality version theyd to ask me basically,. because as you know, nobody ever actually bothers giving feedback these days. i also turned down money for all my releases

i couldnt care about people stealing my music, see:

http://www.h3lx.com/tracks.html

13 of them were meant to be relased before i decided to cancel all my deals

thebman

People saying Ms aren't doing anything wrong are technically wrong. I don't have a modded 360 but people are entitled under law to play back ups of their games and its wrong for Ms to try to prevent that and to ban people from the online service for changing the console so it can play their legal back ups.

It doesn't automatically mean piracy although it does for 99.9% of people I'd say but there are legitimate reasons to want to play non-official games.

If Ms don't want to allow people to play back up games, all users should be able to return a scratched game to the store they purchased from and get a replacement without question. Just try do that with a scratched game and see how many stores do it without a fuss.

I know Ms allow you to do it with first party games like Gears of War but in general they don't do it especially for third party titles.

I'm not really disappointed they did this but I would like the EU to step in and clear this issue up as people are entitled to have backups of the software they have purchased that is playable.

Pacifico

In fairness, i doubt anyone uses their modded 360 to play backups of games that they own :rolleyes:

Nerin

Have no sympathy, the only reason to have a flashed 360 is to play illegal copies of games.

lol
this is the type of comment i laugh at when its said about psps and homebrew.
theres a multitude of things one can do with custom fw other than piracy.
of course theres loadsa pirates (yarrrr) but theres also loadsa people who want custom themes,or homebrew games or applications etc.
ah the old days of people giving out about cheat discs like ar max with its big bad emulators and loaders.
back to the good old days
ps.

In fairness, i doubt anyone uses their modded 360 to play backups of games that they own

games saved to a harddrive or memsticl load faster than a disc,so you could be wrong there.

savemejebus

nerin wrote: »

theres a multitude of things one can do with custom fw other than piracy.

what sort of homebrew applications are out there for the 360? (genuinely interested question, not sniping )

Nerin

when its said about psps and homebrew.

sorry i cant help u there,i dont have a 360 (boo hiss *cowers*)
my housemate does,but hes anti modding and pro everything special edition.
im sure there should be apps and the like for the 36o cfw, and if there isnt,there should be,the psp scene thrives, the 36o has alot more power to punch than a psp.
im sure someone out there can answer your question about the possibilties,im just here because of cfw comments

ongarite

nerin wrote: »

lol
this is the type of comment i laugh at when its said about psps and homebrew.
theres a multitude of things one can do with custom fw other than piracy.
of course theres loadsa pirates (yarrrr) but theres also loadsa people who want custom themes,or homebrew games or applications etc.
ah the old days of people giving out about cheat discs like ar max with its big bad emulators and loaders.
back to the good old days
ps.

games saved to a harddrive or memsticl load faster than a disc,so you could be wrong there.

While that may be true for PSP there is no homebrew or scene for the 360. The rest of the console besides the DVD drive is locked down tighter than my ass so the only reason to flash DVD-drive is to play copied games. Plain and Simple.

lee_baby_simms

Helix wrote: »

mainly coz i have a ps3 for online

Heh, good luck with that.

Helix

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

Heh, good luck with that.

it works fine to play games against people

i dont need the bells and whistles xbl offers for what i want from the ps3

i just put in a game, hit online, and hit ranked match

simple

thats not to say i wouldnt pay for an xbl standard system, but once i can actually play the games online, im happy

TheDoc

it would be tempting since my 360 is a huge part of my media system, and the 360 doesnt play dvd-r or copied discs, that contain alot of my digital photos and camera videos from nights out holidays etc which is a bit poor.

You cant REALLY hit down on those that use pirating tbh, they save alot of money, and the internet provides an easy accesible base to get pretty much anything you need for free.

I myself do not have a cracked 360 its fully legal and i buy all my gaming software.

But come on honestly, if there was no xbox live to be banned from, everyone would have a cracked 360 like most people had cracked ps2/1 etc.

Plus I am a major supporter of homebrew and the people that make these cracks(which i dont support illegal use of games i go pay 60 brick on) are also major developers and helpers i nthe homebrew scene.

I really am hoping the 360 gets some homebrew, i dont want to be paying out money to be playing golden axe, when psp can do it all for free, as can my pc


but i do fully support microsoft in their attempt to ban these machines from xbox live, as i dont agree with people not purchasing games getting online benefits.

Fair enough if your playing offline single players and with your mates thats fine by me, but when im paying for an xbl service, idont want to be playing against those who are illegal using the system.

As of now the only homebrew system for the xbox 360 is like a snes or something,. but it has no sound. Its a very poor piece of software. In time when more people have media centre or they abolish that block completely we will see plenty of homebrew.

IMO microsoft should support it, it would get more people on their side. Imagine they enabled xbox live co op capabilities for homebrew, instead of having to fork out money for golden axe and the likes

coolhandc

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

You cant REALLY hit down on those that use pirating tbh, they save alot of money, and the internet provides an easy accesible base to get pretty much anything you need for free.

yes you can hit down on those that use pirating,they dont contribute anything to the games developers etc, and just because its easy to do something doesnt make it right.
its easy for someone to go and get a prostitute, but that doesnt make it right...

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

But come on honestly, if there was no xbox live to be banned from, everyone would have a cracked 360 like most people had cracked ps2/1 etc.

i dont agree with you there.its still illegal and if EVERYONE did have a cracked 360 then there would be no new games made because no one would buy there games any more.

TheDoc

doesnt stop them making football manager games when on day of release you can download for free, or any single player game for that matter.

you can get any software you want for free, but they still make them.

Because they know they will make money of those who arnt in the know and those that have strong morals.

We all do things in walks of live to save some money. I'm not defending it, but think it highly hypocrytical to completly slam them.

Everyone has pulled a little scam here and there.

coolhandc

but you cant get any software you want for free?not legally anyway.and i never heard of this day of release free download stuff?!
if everyone in the world were illegally copying these discs,then the companies who make them would be going bankrupt so they wouldnt have the funds to make more games.
so what were talking about here is a world were theres no gears of war, halo, fifa, whatever your favourite games are.
what would we do then?
yes we do like to save money,but this isnt saving money its stealing money.i fail to see the difference between this and going into a bank to rob cash.

its not hypocritical at all to be criticising these people,there is a difference between me wanting to save some money by going to tesco and getting cheap beer and those that contribute in no way to the manufacturing of these games by stealing them.

Retr0gamer

brim4brim wrote: »

People saying Ms aren't doing anything wrong are technically wrong. I don't have a modded 360 but people are entitled under law to play back ups of their games and its wrong for Ms to try to prevent that and to ban people from the online service for changing the console so it can play their legal back ups.

I'm very sure that it's illegal to play back-ups of your games even if you own the game.

Helix

coolhandc wrote: »

i fail to see the difference between this and going into a bank to rob cash

if i rob a bank i am taking physical money which the bank have on their premises. when i have taken the money, they no longer have it, its gone

if i download a game i am NOT taking anything from anyone, nobody is at physical loss. nor can you say that they are at a monetary loss in my doing so, because you cannot with any degree of certainty say that i would have bought the game if i did not have the ability to download it, therefore there is no loss of earning.

and again to personalise this for myself specifically, if i really like the game and it offers some online capabilities, i will then buy it for the ps3.

im aware that i am not everyone, nor can i speak for everyone. however for me personally, it is the case that in downloading games for the 360, im not depriving any companies of sales, because if the game is good enough, it will still be bought on the ps3, all im doing is penalising the makers of mediocre games by not parting with my money for duds

Helix

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm very sure that it's illegal to play back-ups of your games even if you own the game.

im pretty sure youre entitled to have one backup copy of any digital media you have paid for

humanji

I dont' think it is. If you bought something, then you can legally make as many copies as you want, but you can't give or sell those copies to anyone. Or at least, that's what I thought...

event

so, all the people on here giving out have never downloaded one song, one tv show, one movie, or watched a pirate DVD?

Nerin

so, all the people on here giving out have never downloaded one song, one tv show, one movie, or watched a pirate DVD?

Nope,that would be illegal,but would you trust the word of a pirate, lol
yarrr

TheDoc

yes you can make as many copies as you want of your own material. Legal 100% fact.

No one mentions here for fear of being banned.

As for day of releases, come out of your cotton ball world, you CAN get anything you want for free, without looking hard, not gna say how cause a) i will get in trouble b) i dont do it

But anything and everything for a pc or console gets cracked and you can get for free.

Helix

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

As for day of releases, come out of your cotton ball world, you CAN get anything you want for free, without looking hard, not gna say how cause a) i will get in trouble b) i dont do it

But anything and everything for a pc or console gets cracked and you can get for free.

also its very rare that it makes it out for free from these channels the day of release, its generally before that

thebman

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm very sure that it's illegal to play back-ups of your games even if you own the game.

No it certainly is not. Under EU law your entitled to make backups of software you have purchased and games/movies etc... are your software that you purchased.

The games/movie manufacturers encrypt it to try to prevent you from doing it and include license agreements with terms that would be thrown out in court to try to dissuade people but none of this can over write EU law.

You are entitled to play your back ups and there are plenty of sites dedicated to helping people do it that can't be shut down because of these laws but it doesn't stop these companies trying to infringe on consumer rights by trying to prevent you having backups so when they bring out their new movie player/music player, they hope to force you into repurchasing it all over again.

Read up more on DRM and unfair license agreements for your own sake. Microsoft's license agreements even lie about what users are allowed to do. Any term in a license agreement that says you can't do something that your legally entitled to do is null and void.

Fingleberries

Oh wait - just because you can get it cracked and for free, then it's OK.

If that's the case, I must apologise about all the pitiful arguements that everyone has made so far against downloading a illegal backups of games and playing them.
________________________________________________________________

You can't seriously think that just because it's available for free by some nefarious method that it makes it right or legal.

That's the same logic as theiving little scumbags that see a bike locked on the street and decide to nick it. The same as the young lads who see a blank wall as a blank canvas to graffiti on.

"Sure if they didn't want it nicked / written on, then why did they just leave it there"
"I mean the bike was just left there, I just had to apply a crack to the lock and it was free - no harm, no foul. Sure, they're probably insured anyway so they'll get the money back for it and what's the problem? Everyone comes out breaking even."

I saw earlier that someone defended the comparison between robbing money out of a till / from a bank by saying that doing that is robbing real money. Whereas there's no 'real' money being lost to piracy (or 'making a backup for personal use', as some call it).

Cobblers.

There is real money being lost, just because you are not handing over your money, does not equate to the same thing as the Software company, programmers, distributors and stores getting their fair dues. They don't spend millions researching, developing, coding, producing and marketing a game just so you can be happy. It's a business and they need to make a profit in order to continue in business.

They're hardly going to go "Lads, Joe90 on boards got a shady copy of the game off a dodgy site, but they really loved it. We're so happy about that, it makes the last two years of our effort worthwhile. Let's go home and have some fresh air for dinner. By the way, lads, P45's all around. Wahay!"

• As for those with the "I'm only doing this to see if I like it" ... What are demos for? Why not rent the game? How about borrowing it from a mate?
• If everyone is doing it, does that make it right? ... No.
• Just because you can do something, does that mean you should do it? ... No. If it's wrong, it's wrong. No matter how you may try to justify it.
• If it was legal and above board, why are people so furtive about it and all the web sites that offer links to these downloads so scruffy and hidden - and you need to have most of your Antivirus and stuff up to date just in case they try any nastiness?
  
• Stealing something is not the same as Saving money.
  
• Is it some consipiracy by Microsoft / Sony / Nintendo and all the game publishers? ... No.
• Are Games ridiculuously overpriced in this country? ... Hell yeah. If you don't like the price, then don't pay it. Shop around - look for a better deal elsewhere. Many of the top games are region free, and can be bought online for up to half the price of a retail outlet here. If you let the retail outlets know, after a while they may get the point if enough people make the point.

TheDoc

i never said it was right, i clearly said i dont support these actions.

Reference was to the post that said you cant

its interesting to view the numbers of illegal windows vista and xp used around the world, ill think youll find the numbers staggering.

And if you go into any net cafe that plays games, you think they bought the same game 20 times for each machine?

they all download the games and use key generators, or any cafe ive been in anyway.

only used for lan so thats how they work, try go online in most games and you cant, have to bring your own game cd key with you.

And i think people that say they dont download or use free software when they shouldnt, are liars to be fair. Everyone does it. Again doesnt mean its right, but there is no way of stopping it.

Why go pay 250 euro for a piece of photo shop software when you can get it for free?

And copyright hunters only go after people who upload, and even then its a certain upload cap they search for. they dont bother with average joe who downloads.

Its unfortunate, but then rightly so this boards facility does not allow conversations about illegal software etc.

But if we WERE allowed, youd be shocked to see the savings people make if you where in the dark about the whole scene.

Kazu

i never said it was right, i clearly said i dont support these actions.

Reference was to the post that said you cant

its interesting to view the numbers of illegal windows vista and xp used around the world, ill think youll find the numbers staggering.

And if you go into any net cafe that plays games, you think they bought the same game 20 times for each machine?

they all download the games and use key generators, or any cafe ive been in anyway.

only used for lan so thats how they work, try go online in most games and you cant, have to bring your own game cd key with you.

And i think people that say they dont download or use free software when they shouldnt, are liars to be fair. Everyone does it. Again doesnt mean its right, but there is no way of stopping it.

Why go pay 250 euro for a piece of photo shop software when you can get it for free?

And copyright hunters only go after people who upload, and even then its a certain upload cap they search for. they dont bother with average joe who downloads.

Its unfortunate, but then rightly so this boards facility does not allow conversations about illegal software etc.

But if we WERE allowed, youd be shocked to see the savings people make if you where in the dark about the whole scene.

your right warez allows people to test out software and dabble into stuff

i dont own a modded xbox 360 i buy my games 70 euro for a 4-5 hr game what a rip off



i do howerver download other warez

if it is good enough i will buy it

copyright laws are broken every day in may formats

there should be a fourm on boards which would allow boards user talk about warez and talk only no giving links to download files etc

Helix

Fingleberries wrote: »

Oh wait - just because you can get it cracked and for free, then it's OK.

nobody said that

Fingleberries wrote: »

If that's the case, I must apologise about all the pitiful arguements that everyone has made so far against downloading a illegal backups of games and playing them.

what arguements? people do it coz its free

Fingleberries wrote: »

You can't seriously think that just because it's available for free by some nefarious method that it makes it right or legal.

where did anyone say that?

Fingleberries wrote: »

That's the same logic as theiving little scumbags that see a bike locked on the street and decide to nick it.

no its not. if i download a game, nobody loses anything. if i steal a bike, the bike is gone, and the owner no longer has it

Fingleberries wrote: »

or 'making a backup for personal use', as some call it

you DO realise that people referring to that are ACTUALLY referring to making backups of their own games, as youre legally entitled to? theyre not talking about downloading anything

Fingleberries wrote: »

There is real money being lost, just because you are not handing over your money, does not equate to the same thing as the Software company, programmers, distributors and stores getting their fair dues. They don't spend millions researching, developing, coding, producing and marketing a game just so you can be happy. It's a business and they need to make a profit in order to continue in business.

you miss the point here. say i download game 'a', because i want to see what its like. there is NO sale lost there for the developers, because i wouldnt have bought it anyway. if i play it and like it, i WILL buy it on the ps3 if it has online gameplay, therefore, in my case (and as stated earlier, this is ONLY my case, i cant speak for everyone else) if the game is worth buying, itll be bought

Fingleberries wrote: »

They're hardly going to go "Lads, Joe90 on boards got a shady copy of the game off a dodgy site, but they really loved it. We're so happy about that, it makes the last two years of our effort worthwhile. Let's go home and have some fresh air for dinner. By the way, lads, P45's all around. Wahay!"

how many games that people download and burn do you ACTUALLY think theyd have bought otherwise? its a very low percentage. i have close to 100 xbox 360 games, most were downloaded, burnt, played for an hour, and never played again. nobody loses anything from me in those circumstances

Fingleberries wrote: »

[*] As for those with the "I'm only doing this to see if I like it" ... What are demos for? Why not rent the game? How about borrowing it from a mate?

as i said, ill get a game off a mate if possible first and foremost. otherwise tho ill download it, and you know why? it doesnt cost me anything

Fingleberries wrote: »

If everyone is doing it, does that make it right? ... No.

who said that?

Fingleberries wrote: »

[*] Just because you can do something, does that mean you should do it? ... No. If it's wrong, it's wrong. No matter how you may try to justify it.

whos trying to justify it or saying its right?

Fingleberries wrote: »

[*] If it was legal and above board, why are people so furtive about it and all the web sites that offer links to these downloads so scruffy and hidden - and you need to have most of your Antivirus and stuff up to date just in case they try any nastiness?

who said downloading games was legal? its not, and nobody said it was

[

Fingleberries wrote: »

Stealing something is not the same as Saving money.

again its not stealing. its massive breaching of copyrights, which is illegal. stealing is taking something from someone at a cost, however minimal, to them, without their permission. there is no cost to any developers for games i download (apart from pro evo 08, which i was going to buy but downloaded instead, fortunately coz its dirt)

event

jesus there are some amount of high horses in here

humanji

Helix wrote: »

you miss the point here. say i download game 'a', because i want to see what its like. there is NO sale lost there for the developers, because i wouldnt have bought it anyway. if i play it and like it, i WILL buy it on the ps3 if it has online gameplay, therefore, in my case (and as stated earlier, this is ONLY my case, i cant speak for everyone else) if the game is worth buying, itll be bought

I don't really see this as a valid argument. It's just making excuses. Granted, it may be true in your case, and if it is, you're definitely in the minority. Why would anyone go out and buy a game they already have? And then you get people who'll just tell themselves that even though they enjoyed a game, it could of been better, therefore justifying not buying it later.

The truth is, even when you download a game that you'd never consider buying, you're still taking money away from developers. Justify it all you want, it's still you stealing from these people. Personally, I couldn't care less that they're not getting my money, but I'm a stingy git. And I don't kid myself that it's a victimless crime.


And sure, you can always download demos of games instead, but that point rarely gets raised.

Helix

humanji wrote: »

I don't really see this as a valid argument.

why isnt it?

humanji wrote: »

Granted, it may be true in your case, and if it is, you're definitely in the minority.

i never claimed i wasnt

humanji wrote: »

Why would anyone go out and buy a game they already have?

did you miss the bit where i said "WILL buy it on the ps3 if it has online gameplay"?

humanji wrote: »

The truth is, even when you download a game that you'd never consider buying, you're still taking money away from developers.

how exactly?

humanji wrote: »

Justify it all you want, it's still you stealing from these people. Personally, I couldn't care less that they're not getting my money, but I'm a stingy git. And I don't kid myself that it's a victimless crime.

again how is it stealing if the developers of good games are still getting my money regardless? im not saying its a victimless crime, im saying that in my case the victims are the ones making pants games

humanji wrote: »

And sure, you can always download demos of games instead, but that point rarely gets raised.

how can you download demos on a machine which cant access live?

if ms had a feature where you could download demos from their website, burn them to dvd, and play them on the 360, then id actually download less in the way of 360 games, no doubt about that.

for the record as well this can be done, because the sites where i acquire games have started having demos from xbl on them for download too, and in those cases i have actually downloaded the demos

Helix

question for people

if you buy second hand games, are you not also stealing from the developer? in that it says the games arent for resale, and youre completely and utterly depriving the developers 100% of any income because youre buying it second hand?