Who uses side lights?

Gwynston

(Thought I'd keep this separate from the other lights thread which seems to have been taken over by fog light rants...)

What's the point of side lights - does anyone actually use them?
In my opinion, there is no situation to use only side lights where actually using dipped headlights wouldn't be preferable and make you more visible.

I see an awful lot of people driving around either at dusk, or other murky or misty conditions who actually think using their side lights is useful.

Any of you out there? Tell me, why not just turn that switch one more notch? What do you think you're achieving by just using side lights?

Henry Ford III

If side lights were not necessary (they are used more to be seen than see obviously) believe me they would not be fitted.

I use auto lights

mike65

I only use dipped. sidelights are pretty pointless IMO.

The campaign for DRL starts here!

Mike.

Cionád

Dipped when im driving at all times. Dont use those candle lights at all. ive seen some people drive with nothing but these in pitch dark :eek:

OT: Worst of all is those people that have their right headlight out, so use their left light on full beam to compensate. Guaranteed accident on backroads!!

Gwynston

Henry Ford III wrote: »

If side lights were not necessary (they are used more to be seen than see obviously) believe me they would not be fitted.

So why are they necessary? IIRC, weren't there some obscure laws somewhere on the continent that in built-up areas you were supposed to use side lights only? That was years ago though.
IMO they are near useless as an aid to being seen.

mike65 wrote:

The campaign for DRL starts here!

Well, lets not start that debate!
I'm genuinely interested to hear from people who use side lights for some purpose.

peasant

I don't have separate side lights on my car, just a dim 10W bulb in the actual headlight.

Conveniently enough, when I leave the lights switched on and take the key out of the ignition, the proper headlamps go off and only the little light stays on.

This is handy to light up your car when you're parked in a dark little corner somehwere, better to be seen.

Hence VW calls them "parking lights"

On some trim levels you could actually switch them on on one side only (with your indicator) ...handy for parking in unlit roads, just illuminate the edge of the car.

crosstownk

I view them as parking lights - not side lights. If I'm parked somewhere and I feel that the car needs to 'be seen' I'll leave on the relevant parking lights. But when I'm driving it's either dips or beams as necessary.

Padraig Mor

I think they're actually parking lights IIRC. To be used when parking in unlit areas at night (perhaps when causing an obstruction?). Presumably they're pretty dim so as to avoid using much battery.

C_Breeze

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I think they're actually parking lights IIRC. To be used when parking in unlit areas at night (perhaps when causing an obstruction?). Presumably they're pretty dim so as to avoid using much battery.

So i thought aswell

ballooba

The Gardai seem to use side lights around town. They want to see who's on the pavements.

mike65

True parking lights can be selected individually. How many cars have that facility these days?

Mike.

crosstownk

mike65 wrote: »

True parking lights can be selected individually. How many cars have that facility these days?

Mike.

I think most German brands still have it. I know VW & MB do. AFAIK, Ford have it too.

Mr Magnolia

Only if I'm parked.

Dipped headlights for me, all day, every day, summer or winter. I was informed at an advanced driving school that you were ~35% less likely to be involved in a crash if you drove with your lights on.

Lex Luthor

I use the side or parking lights in the summer time even during the day.

Dipped beams in the winter team also during the day.

BrianD3

Who uses side lights?
-Misguided, tight morons who think they're "saving the battery" by leaving their dipped lights off while driving in poor visibility/dark
-Idiots who can't get their thick heads around how to operate the controls in their car. "Ah sure i'll just press a few buttons and see what happens"
-Idiots who can't get their heads around the idea that lights are for seeing AND being seen
-Muppets with two blown dipped headlight bulbs but too tight/stupid to replace them so they drive along on a combination of sidelights, mainbeams and front fogs

Gwynston

crosstownk wrote: »

I think most German brands still have it. I know VW & MB do. AFAIK, Ford have it too.

Yes, both our Ford Focus and C-Max have the option to switch them on as parking lights. But the separate 'side lights on' position is still there in between 'off' and 'dipped on' too. Why?

Gwynston

Lex Luthor wrote: »

I use the side or parking lights in the summer time even during the day.

Dipped beams in the winter team also during the day.

Why?
If you use them during the day both summer and winter, why choose to specifically only use side lights in the summer?

blackbox

Lex, what's the point in using the side lights when driving - The car can be seen before the 5/10 watt bulbs except in pitch darkness.

If you care about safety use dipped beams all the time unless full beams are appropriate, especially if your car is green/ black/ grey/ silver /dark blue - in fact any colour except white or bright yellow; side lights should only be used for parking;

I like people to use dipped beams even in sunshine - it can be a great help when there is deep shadow under trees etc.

MarkR

As far as I can see they are only for parking. Hence my puzzlement when people are using them hurtling through blinding rain while overtaking at 120 km/h.

My guess is that they heard the lady on the radio from the AA advising to drive with their dipped lights on. Confusing dipped and the parking lights.

Gwynston

But they're not just parking lights!
Like I said, Fords have two separate positions to switch to either parking lights or side lights (even though both effectively do the same thing).

Marcus.Aurelius

blackbox wrote: »

Lex, what's the point in using the side lights when driving - The car can be seen before the 5/10 watt bulbs except in pitch darkness.

If you care about safety use dipped beams all the time unless full beams are appropriate, especially if your car is green/ black/ grey/ silver /dark blue - in fact any colour except white or bright yellow; side lights should only be used for parking;

I like people to use dipped beams even in sunshine - it can be a great help when there is deep shadow under trees etc.

It helps in light rain, where dipped headlamps are unnecessary, also the rear of the car is as bright whether you're on dipped h/l or side lights.

I mostly drive with dipped headlamps, turned down to the ground during the day to avoid blinding people. But if I'm in heavier traffic, I turn to the side-lights, just so the rear of the car is still lit up.

It all helps.

tc20

As peasant and crosstownk have said, i'll use the side or parking lights if im parked somewhere thats not well lit. Other than that, i always drive with dipped heads on, day or night

deman

Is it actually law yet, that you must drive with your dips on at ALL times? It is here in Finland, the sun could be splitting the rocks in the middle of the summer and we still drive with our dips on. The first cars you meet will normally remind you if you don't have them switched on.

Gran Hermano

I've always driven with DRL, blame it on my time in Sweden before I drove
here. I too recall that Eircom conducted a trial where they introduced DRL
some years back across their fleet. During the trial they found accidents
dropped by approx 30% and they decided to introduce DRL use as a policy.

I'd a scary experience some years back on the narrow back road from Johnnie
Foxes to Rathfarnham where I had a speeding garda car coming towards me
with their front right headlights out of action - from a distance it looked
like it was a motorbike.

Sidelights on their own are never useful in my opinion.

craichoe

BrianD3 wrote: »

Who uses side lights?
-Misguided, tight morons who think they're "saving the battery" by leaving their dipped lights off while driving in poor visibility/dark
-Idiots who can't get their thick heads around how to operate the controls in their car. "Ah sure i'll just press a few buttons and see what happens"
-Idiots who can't get their heads around the idea that lights are for seeing AND being seen
-Muppets with two blown dipped headlight bulbs but too tight/stupid to replace them so they drive along on a combination of sidelights, mainbeams and front fogs

Their called Daytime Running Lights. They were introduced on Vehicles as a requirement in a number of countries. So during normal daytime use, you have your running lights on. Quite a few manufacturers advertised these back in the late 90's as an addon. Now their on pretty much all cars.

Daytime running lights are for other road users, not for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daytime_running_lamp

So I guess the muppets had an read of the manual.

International regulators, primarily in Europe, are struggling to balance the potential safety benefit offered by DRL with the increased fuel consumption due to their use. Because the power to run the DRLs must be produced by the engine, which in turn requires burning additional fuel, high-power DRL systems increase CO2 emissions sufficiently to affect a country's compliance with the Kyoto protocol on greenhouse gas emissions

Gwynston

maoleary wrote: »

It helps in light rain, where dipped headlamps are unnecessary

Can't agree with you there.
If we accept that DRL are a good idea - i.e. that you're more visible with lights on in the day than without, then surely you have to agree that dipped head lights are brighter than side lights, therefore will make you more visible.

Where do you get the idea that dipped headlights are unnecessary in light rain? If we agree that DRL are still a good idea on a bright day, surely they'd be even better in the rain?

dogmatix

I have side lights on all the time - it helps make the car a little bit more noticeable to pedestrians. As soon as the light starts to fade the main dipped lights are turned on.

Gwynston

BrianD3 wrote: »

-Muppets with two blown dipped headlight bulbs but too tight/stupid to replace them so they drive along on a combination of sidelights, mainbeams and front fogs

craichoe wrote: »

Their called Daytime Running Lights. They were introduced on Vehicles as a requirement in a number of countries. So during normal daytime use, you have your running lights on. Quite a few manufacturers advertised these back in the late 90's as an addon. Now their on pretty much all cars.

Daytime running lights are for other road users, not for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daytime_running_lamp

So I guess the muppets had an read of the manual.

No, DRLs are something else craichoe. In Scandinavia, where cars must must use lights in the daytime, regular cars are just modified so that their dipped main beams come on automatically when you start the engine.

Many domestic cars in the US do have DRLs, but these are separate units which look a bit like fog lights but aren't as bright. (BTW, with these DRLs on, red lights at the back aren't necessarily on at the same time).

Most people driving round with front fog lights here are using just that. They're not de facto DRLs like in the US. (Except maybe Volvos and Saabs?)

Lex Luthor

dogmatix wrote: »

I have side lights on all the time - it helps make the car a little bit more noticeable to pedestrians. As soon as the light starts to fade the main dipped lights are turned on.

same as what I do....

Lex Luthor

some people shouldn't even bother using their dipped lights as they should start by cleaning the muck off the lights first....:mad:

craichoe

Gwynston wrote: »

No, DRLs are something else craichoe. In Scandinavia, where cars must must use lights in the daytime, regular cars are just modified so that their dipped main beams come on automatically when you start the engine.

Many domestic cars in the US do have DRLs, but these are separate units which look a bit like fog lights but aren't as bright. (BTW, with these DRLs on, red lights at the back aren't necessarily on at the same time).

Most people driving round with front fog lights here are using just that. They're not de facto DRLs like in the US. (Except maybe Volvos and Saabs?)

No .. its the same thing, just full voltage vs reduced voltage. Its an environmental argument. Increased fuel usage vs safety. Having a legal requirement to have an automatic switch is not the same thing as being legally required to have them turned on.

Gwynston

Lex, fair enough if you use side lights all the time and you're on the ball enough to switch on the dipped mains as soon as visibility is reduced (like you said you tend to do in winter). But what bugs me is people who have made the conscious decision to turn the light switch to sides and specifically NOT mains in conditions where sides are obviously pathetic. :mad:

IMO that almost makes them worse than people with NO lights on at all in poor visibility - they might at least be just inattentive. But people who specifically choose to turn the switch to an inadequate position are plain stoopid!

I ask again though:
You clearly think sides are sufficient in bright conditions? Even though research has shown that dipped mains make you more visible, even in daylight?

Gwynston

craichoe wrote: »

No .. its the same thing, just full voltage vs reduced voltage. Its an environmental argument. Increased fuel usage vs safety. Having a legal requirement to have an automatic switch is not the same thing as being legally required to have them turned on.

OK, but I still think the "muppets" BrianD3 was referring to were people using actual fog lights, not DRLs.

I can't recall ever seeing US-style DRLs on any cars here. Are you sure "pretty much all cars" have them now? The only ones I've seen would be on Swedish makes, but they just look like automatically-on headlights to me.

Can you give some examples in case I'm still misunderstanding you? Are you saying the fog lights are used as DRLs at reduced voltage? Can't say I've seen that as an option on any models....

Marcus.Aurelius

Gwynston wrote: »

Where do you get the idea that dipped headlights are unnecessary in light rain? If we agree that DRL are still a good idea on a bright day, surely they'd be even better in the rain?

Who's we?? I never agreed with you!

Besides the cost of running the headlamps all the time is considerable, especially environmentally. Automatic headlamp systems like the Volvo systems are not that effective really. Data from those countries who have mandatory dipped headlamps cannot be relied on for a comparison here due to the severity of the winters in scandinavian countries and the amount of darkness they have as a result.

BrianD3

Gwynston wrote: »

OK, but I still think the "muppets" BrianD3 was referring to were people using actual fog lights, not DRLs.

Correct. I wasn't even aware that foglights could be used as DRLs. The vast majority of cars on the Irish market fitted with foglights have "actual" foglights - low down, separate from main light units, separate switch, only to be used in fog etc. What I do see is eejits driving in dusk or even dark with sidelights and these foglights on.

Another type of muppet drives with main beams on facing oncoming traffic and only "dips" at the last second. When they dip it then becomes apparant why they blinded everyone - their dipped beams don't work so when they dip all they have are sidelights and so they can't see where they're going.

Gwynston

maoleary wrote: »

Who's we?? I never agreed with you!

That's why I said "if" !

Yeah I understand some of the arguments against DRLs, but I was wondering why you thought side lights were sufficient in light rain when dipped mains would clearly be even more visible.

And in Scandinavia, it's not all about the poor winters and short daylight. I've visited a few times and found DRLs a huge benefit in many situations, even on sunny days. Side lights would not have done.

craichoe

Gwynston wrote: »

OK, but I still think the "muppets" BrianD3 was referring to were people using actual fog lights, not DRLs.

I can't recall ever seeing US-style DRLs on any cars here. Are you sure "pretty much all cars" have them now? The only ones I've seen would be on Swedish makes, but they just look like automatically-on headlights to me.

Can you give some examples in case I'm still misunderstanding you? Are you saying the fog lights are used as DRLs at reduced voltage? Can't say I've seen that as an option on any models....

Mark 1 Octavia, Mark 4 Golf, Mk 1 Seat Leon, Audi A4, S4
Half turn - Running Lights
Full Turn - Dips
Full Turn out 1 Notch, Dips + Front Fogs
Full Turn out 2 Notches, Dips + Front and back Fogs.

Fog lights in the Octavia are in the Headlight assembly.

Gran Hermano

maoleary wrote: »

Data from those countries who have mandatory dipped headlamps cannot be relied on for a comparison here due to the severity of the winters in scandinavian countries and the amount of darkness they have as a result.

Don't forget that whilst it might get dark very early in Sweden in the
middle of winter the opposite is true in the middle of the summer.
You might only get 4 hours of darkness at mid-summer.
They do not have DRLs compulsory for winter only/

Once LED lights become more common the fuel and power consumption
argument goes out the window.

Gwynston

craichoe wrote: »

Mark 1 Octavia, Mark 4 Golf, Mk 1 Seat Leon, Audi A4, S4
Half turn - Running Lights
Full Turn - Dips
Full Turn out 1 Notch, Dips + Front Fogs
Full Turn out 2 Notches, Dips + Front and back Fogs.

Fog lights in the Octavia are in the Headlight assembly.

That seems pretty similar to Fords except that the "half turn" would be side lights. Those little tiny bulbs sometimes next to the indicators, or recessed inside the main light housing.

Do those VAG models you mention actually use the fog lights at a reduced brightness for running lights?

craichoe

Gwynston wrote: »

That seems pretty similar to Fords except that the "half turn" would be side lights. Those little tiny bulbs sometimes next to the indicators, or recessed inside the main light housing.

Do those VAG models you mention actually use the fog lights at a reduced brightness for running lights?

Exactly like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Lowbeam_DRL.jpg

Varies slightly on the model i believe.

Some use the fogs, some don't .. Never really checked tbh

Gwynston

Ah OK! Thanks for the pic - that illustrates it clearly. So they're brighter than just side lights then?

Also, in that pic, is that a little side light bulb I see in the adjacent light housing? How does that come on? It didn't seem to be in your switch sequence.

craichoe

Gwynston wrote: »

Ah OK! Thanks for the pic - that illustrates it clearly. So they're brighter than just side lights then?

Also, in that pic, is that a little side light bulb I see in the adjacent light housing? How does that come on? It didn't seem to be in your switch sequence.

Nope.. its just a focal point, I know this because i had to fit beam benders for driving on the continent a couple of weeks ago

Gegerty

Not trying to be smart but if you can't see another car in broad daylight or even dim daylight then you're either a) otherwise pre-occupied, maybe with your mobile phone or b) blind and should not be on the road. Lights are for when its dark, otherwise I keep them off. "Side lights" or parking lights as they are correctly called are for when you are parked so you are not blinding people.

When a car coming the opposite direction has its lights on you will focus away from it, usually towards the kerb. how is this safe? It's a necessity when its dark but people driving around in broad daylight blinding people with their lights are more of a hazzard. It's not a magical invisible air bag, its not going to save your life its complete rubbish.

Gwynston

At the risk of this turning into a DRL debate, it's been proven that lights on in the day make you more visible. And by definition, the more visible you are, the less likely someone will have an accident with you having not seen you for whatever reason.

Do you not agree that a motorbike with lights on in the day makes them much more visible to the typical quick glance most people make before pulling out of a side toad?

If so, even a bigger car will be more visible to that same quick glance if it has lights on.

Haven't you ever seen someone pulling out from a side road in front of a car, having not seen it properly? It happens all the time.

Go to Scandinavia - lights aren't just for the dark - by law.

Gwynston

And to reply to your sneaky edit:

Are you seriously saying you have to look away from a car in broad daylight with dipped lights on because they dazzle you? If so, I suggest you get your eyes examined. How can you possibly see ANYTHING at night time????

ninty9er

Gegerty wrote: »

Not trying to be smart but if you can't see another car in broad daylight or even dim daylight then you're either a) otherwise pre-occupied, maybe with your mobile phone or b) blind and should not be on the road. Lights are for when its dark, otherwise I keep them off. "Side lights" or parking lights as they are correctly called are for when you are parked so you are not blinding people.

When a car coming the opposite direction has its lights on you will focus away from it, usually towards the kerb. how is this safe? It's a necessity when its dark but people driving around in broad daylight blinding people with their lights are more of a hazzard. It's not a magical invisible air bag, its not going to save your life its complete rubbish.

If you move towards the kerb for oncoming traffic, I'd be more worried about you than the other cars...you DEFINITELY need to have your lights on to be seen by other based on what you told us!!

OT - how would I(with no electrical knowledge) hook my lights up to be auto DRL as my mam uses the parking lights in my car and it really bugs me!!

Gegerty

Gwynston wrote: »

At the risk of this turning into a DRL debate, it's been proven that lights on in the day make you more visible. And by definition, the more visible you are, the less likely someone will have an accident with you having not seen you for whatever reason.

Do you not agree that a motorbike with lights on in the day makes them much more visible to the typical quick glance most people make before pulling out of a side toad?

If so, even a bigger car will be more visible to that same quick glance if it has lights on.

Haven't you ever seen someone pulling out from a side road in front of a car, having not seen it properly? It happens all the time.

Go to Scandinavia - lights aren't just for the dark - by law.

I agree with you that people don't see other cars all the time. There are crashes all the time for this reason. I don't agree putting your lights on is the solution. Teaching people to be aware is the real solution. Being a cyclist I can say without doubt that there are people out there who simply do not look. A light flashing in their mirror is bound to catch their attention (or a tap on the car works too I find), but is this really the solution? How about having a proper look out for cyclists/motorbikes/other cars before you turn at that junction?

I could be wrong but I think its law in Scandinavia due to their lack of daylight.

Gwynston

No, it's law all year round in Scandinavia - even in mid summer when they have up to 20 hours of daylight!

I agree that drivers could be more vigilant when pulling out to prevent accidents, but people aren't perfect. If they were, we wouldn't need seatbelts or any of the other safety innovations that have been welcomed in the past 5 decades.

But drivers make mistakes, so anything to help prevent that is to be welcomed - like making cars more visible.

Eoin

My Alfa 156 was handy for this, because I could just leave the dipped lights on the whole time. When the engine was turned off (or key removed - can't remember which), both the dipped and side lights would turn off automatically, without any warning noises. This meant I never had to turn the lights on or off. That said, I've no idea how I would have used the sidelights as parking lights without the key in the ignition.

On my current car, the side lights are pretty bright - I replaced the candelight inner bulbs with outer CCFL "angel eyes". They may not illuminate particularly well, but they certainly help the visibility. My GPS display automatically switches to night time mode, so turn on my dipped beams then if I haven't already done so.

zilog_jones

I'd use parking lights (they're not on the sides in my Fiesta) when parked while waiting in the car in the dark, or when I'm facing the sun so the instrument panel lights go on (so I can actually see them). I use dipped beams whenever it's dark - even if it's just very cloudy.

Are amber-coloured sidelights illegal here? I've seen a few modded Civics around with them - I guess they bought US spec lights off eBay or something (as they're allowed over there).

Gwynston

Just to resurrect my rant:

Saw a few people driving this morning with just side lights on in misty, wet conditions. From a distance, you couldn't see them at all. You could just make out a hazy dark blob of the car itself, which had me grumbling to myself about them not using any headlights, only to realise when they got closer, that they actually had side lights on, but they were no help whatsoever from a distance!

A large proportion of them were vans and trucks. What do these drivers think they're achieving by only using side lights in such poor visibility? Turn the bloody switch one more notch, eejits! :mad: