Unbelievers curiosity about Jesus

MooseJam

Yes I'm a total atheist, I'm 100% sure I'm just an animal who has evolved consciousness, but was thinking about Jesus seeing as it's coming up to Christmas so a couple of questions from the curious. Was Jesus up in heaven before he was born of Mary ? I was brought up Catholic untill I was old enough to come to my own conclusions about the whole thing so it was never taught to me if he was always there, if the trinity always was or if it just came to being upon Jesus' birth. If it just came to being upon Jesus' birth then what is the relationship tween God and Jesus, the father and son relationship is a pure biological one, the father passing his DNA to the son, God has no DNA so what exactly is the relationship between God and Jesus ?

philologos

MooseJam wrote:

Was Jesus up in heaven before he was born of Mary ?

Yes. Jesus said he saw Abraham before he carried out his mission on earth. John claims that Jesus was the Word of God, and had existed since the beginning of time. I'd see it as Jesus was an incarnation of God Himself, so that he could put himself on the earth as a worldly being. After his ascension he became reunited with his Father.

MooseJam wrote:

If it just came to being upon Jesus' birth then what is the relationship tween God and Jesus, the father and son relationship is a pure biological one, the father passing his DNA to the son, God has no DNA so what exactly is the relationship between God and Jesus ?

The relationship between Jesus and his Father is this. Jesus is the human form of his father. We see in John 7:14 "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father". We also know from the Gospel of John, that nobody can come to salvation without both belief in Christ and the Father. It is a complicated one however, considering that we are often told that we are also children of God. However we have worldly fathers and mothers, whereas Jesus only had a worldly mother with divine intervention from God in terms of his conception. Hope this helps slightly, maybe some of the others can chip in here.

kelly1

If I could just a few details.

Yes the Holy Trinity has no beginning and no end. God is the un-created creator. Before Jesus' conception in the womb of Mary, He only had a spiritual being. After His conception by the power of the Holy Spirit, he took on a fully human nature in addition to His divine nature. So Jesus is fully divine and fully human. It's called the hypostatic union. His humanness doesn't diminish His divinity and vice versa.

God bless,
Noel.

Zombrex

Did Jesus possess all of God's knowledge and omnipotence while he was a human?

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Did Jesus possess all of God's knowledge and omnipotence while he was a human?

Yes, I believe He did. He could predict the future and raise the dead to life for instance. He said the "Father and I are one", "Before Abraham was I am" etc. It's a good theological question though.

Pompey Magnus

When Jesus ascended to Heaven, did his circumcised foreskin come with him?

kelly1

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

When Jesus ascended to Heaven, did his circumcised foreskin come with him?

Strange question but the resurrected/glorified body has no need for a penis so I don't think it really matters

Zombrex

I think DM is asking (in a rather crude fashion), what was Jesus made of

Was he made of normal flesh and bone, just like any other human?

My understanding is that Jesus' physical body was supposed to ascend to heaven. One would assume would be just his body at the time, not every atom that was at some point had been his body, if you get my drift (we replace "us" every few years, in that the atoms that were your body when you were a boy are long gone and you are now made of different atoms now)

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

I think DM is asking (in a rather crude fashion), what was Jesus made of

Was he made of normal flesh and bone, just like any other human?

My understanding is that Jesus' physical body was supposed to ascend to heaven. One would assume would be just his body at the time, not every atom that was at some point had been his body, if you get my drift (we replace "us" every few years, in that the atoms that were your body when you were a boy are long gone and you are now made of different atoms now)

OK, but the point is that the body in which He ascended into was His resurrected and glorified body which has powers over and above a normal body. I say this because He seemed to have the ability to pass through walls and appear in any place at will because He appeared to the apostles despite the fact that they were behind a locked door when they were hiding from the Jews.

Run_to_da_hills

Wicknight wrote: »

Did Jesus possess all of God's knowledge and omnipotence while he was a human?

The answer to your question is "Yes" and "No." Since Jesus is part of the "Trinity", He is omniscient, but in His humanity, Jesus chose not to know certain things.

He learned and "grew in wisdom" if you read Luke 2vs52 "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man".(Luke 2:52)

He chose not to know the time of His second coming ie "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". (Matthew 24:36).

Yet at other times Jesus exhibited omniscience,
"For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him" John 6:61,64; prediction of Peter's denial, prediction of Judas betrayal, John 13:11;John 16:30; John 1:48-49 etc.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

OK, but the point is that the body in which He ascended into was His resurrected and glorified body which has powers over and above a normal body. I say this because He seemed to have the ability to pass through walls and appear in any place at will because He appeared to the apostles despite the fact that they were behind a locked door when they were hiding from the Jews.

I get that. Just wondering how it works.

Pompey Magnus

Wicknight wrote: »

I think DM is asking (in a rather crude fashion), what was Jesus made of

Was he made of normal flesh and bone, just like any other human?

My understanding is that Jesus' physical body was supposed to ascend to heaven. One would assume would be just his body at the time, not every atom that was at some point had been his body, if you get my drift (we replace "us" every few years, in that the atoms that were your body when you were a boy are long gone and you are now made of different atoms now)

That is pretty much what I was wondering, I assume that Jesus' human body is said to have ascended into Heaven for the same reason that Mary's body is said to have done the same, namely that it wouldn't experience decay. If that is the case then would the same logic not have applied to his divine foreskin?

Anyway, another question which has long puzzled me - even when I was a pretty convinced Catholic, was that when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemene before he was arrested he went off by himself to pray. What followed in the Gospel is an account of Jesus' prayers (asking God to "let this cup pass from me" and sweating blood). Now the thing that I don't get was that Jesus was on his own, and the Apostles were all asleep. How do they know what he said? If the Gospels are true then how on earth were they able to quote something that no-one was witness to and if this was made up then how much more of the Bible can't be trusted?

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The answer to your question is "Yes" and "No." Since Jesus is part of the "Trinity", He is omniscient, but in His humanity, Jesus chose not to know certain things.

Not following ... How does a omniscient being "choose" to not know something

Or are you saying that Jesus was a being that was not omniscient while he was Jesus the man

kelly1

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Anyway, another question which has long puzzled me - even when I was a pretty convinced Catholic, was that when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemene before he was arrested he went off by himself to pray. What followed in the Gospel is an account of Jesus' prayers (asking God to "let this cup pass from me" and sweating blood). Now the thing that I don't get was that Jesus was on his own, and the Apostles were all asleep. How do they know what he said? If the Gospels are true then how on earth were they able to quote something that no-one was witness to and if this was made up then how much more of the Bible can't be trusted?

Excellent question, no flies on you!

I think there are only two answers to this. Either Jesus told one of the apostles before He was dragged off to the midnight court or the Holy Spirit revealed it to the aspostles after Jesus died.

John 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

Pompey Magnus

kelly1 wrote: »

I think there are only two answers to this. Either Jesus told one of the apostles before He was dragged off to the midnight court or the Holy Spirit revealed it to the aspostles after Jesus died.

To be honest those were pretty much the main solutions that I could come up with and neither made much sense. In the first possibile explanation I have this ridiculous almost Monty Python-esque scenario of Jesus being pushed and dragged out of the Garden by the soldiers whilst shouting back "Guys, while you were sleeping I prayed for God to let this cup pass from my lips but if it is his will then let it be done, oh and I was sweating blood as well".

The second possibility seems like such a trivial thing for the Holy Spirit to be revealing when it could have been clarifying much more important things which Jesus left ambiguous during his lifetime and has caused millions of deaths between different Christian interpretations of the Bible such as "At the last supper did Jesus literally mean the bread and wine was his body and blood or was he talking symbolically?"

kelly1

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

The second possibility seems like such a trivial thing for the Holy Spirit to be revealing when it could have been clarifying much more important things which Jesus left ambiguous during his lifetime and has caused millions of deaths between different Christian interpretations of the Bible such as "At the last supper did Jesus literally mean the bread and wine was his body and blood or was he talking symbolically?"

I don't think it's trivial at all. The authors and the Holy Spirit want us to know how much Jesus suffered for our sake. And also as John said in his gospel,

25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Peace,
Noel.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

Not following ... How does a omniscient being "choose" to not know something

Or are you saying that Jesus was a being that was not omniscient while he was Jesus the man

That's about it. The Father revealed to Jesus what Jesus needed to be known during His lifetime.

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

Excellent question, no flies on you!

I think there are only two answers to this. Either Jesus told one of the apostles before He was dragged off to the midnight court or the Holy Spirit revealed it to the aspostles after Jesus died.

John 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

The third answer, of course, is that Jesus told the apostles about it after He was raised from the dead.

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote: »

That's about it. The Father revealed to Jesus what Jesus needed to be known during His lifetime.

So he wasn't God up to that point? Or he was God, but just didn't have the properties associated with God? so there was a time jesus did not know who he was?

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

Did Jesus possess all of God's knowledge and omnipotence while he was a human?

This has been done before, but I would have to disagree with Kell1.

When someone reached out and touched him in a jostling and over-excited crowd he asked 'Who touched me?' Kelly, how would you reconcile that lack of knowledge with Jesus being omnipotent?

kelly1

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

This has been done before, but I would have to disagree with Kell1.

When someone reached out and touched him in a jostling and over-excited crowd he asked 'Who touched me?' Kelly, how would you reconcile that lack of knowledge with Jesus being omnipotent?

I think Jesus did this out of humility and also so as not to over-awe people. Jesus often read the minds of the pharisees didn't He? He must have had a good reason for not showing His powers. Maybe it would have had to much influence over a person's response to Him? He was probably testing people's faith too. That's my theories anyway

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

The third answer, of course, is that Jesus told the apostles about it after He was raised from the dead.

Why didn't I think of that?! He was around for 40 days before the ascension.

Mr. Presentable

kelly1 wrote: »

I think Jesus did this out of humility and also so as not to over-awe people.

Seriously? The same one who transmutated water at a wedding, walked on water, passed through locked doors, is suddenly humble and awe-reluctant?

kelly1

nipplenuts wrote: »

Seriously? The same one who transmutated water at a wedding, walked on water, passed through locked doors, is suddenly humble and awe-reluctant?

he changed the water into wine only because His mother asked Him to! Didn't He say "My hour is not yet come"?

He walked on water etc before the apostles to convince them of who He was. And I don't think He performed miracles to impress anyone because He often said "tell nobody". He healed people out of compassion. Jesus could hardly be accused of show off!

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote: »

So he wasn't God up to that point? Or he was God, but just didn't have the properties associated with God? so there was a time jesus did not know who he was?

He has always been God. When He came to Earth He was fully both. But He lived as a man, went through life as one, was tempted, felt pain, hunger, insecurity.

The Bible tells us that at the age of 12 He taught in the Temple. At the beginning of His minstry He announced in the Temple that He was the fulfillment of a prophecy in Isaiah. At that point He knew. During His ministry He knew His purpose and what was going to happen to Him.

But He didn't want to know the hour of His second coming, for whtever purpose, so He didn't.

PDN

I believe God the Son pre-existed from all eternity as part of the Triune Godhead, but, strictly speaking, He only became 'Jesus' when He was conceived in Mary's womb, thus uniting His divine nature with human nature.

The Bible says that Jesus grew in wisdom as a child (Luke 2:52). I would reckon that pretty well demonstrates that He laid aside his omniscience, just as He laid aside His omnipresence when He became God incarnate. This is known as 'kenosis' (Greek for 'emptying'). Charles Wesley expressed it well in his hymn "And Can it Be?" when he penned the lines:

"He left His Father's throne above,
So free so infinite His grace.
Emptied Himself of all but love,
And bled for Adam's helpless race."

Pompey Magnus

I have a three part question relating to Judas:

1) Judas accompanied Jesus through his ministry so it is fair to assume that he witnessed most of the supposed miracles, why on earth would someone betray a man who is able to calm storms, raise people from the dead, feed thousands with a few loaves and fish, heal lepers, walk on water, and turn water into wine? I can think of 3 possible answers; (a) either these events never happened and were a later invention, (b) Jesus did appear to work miracles but was a fraud and Judas was aware of this, or (c) they really happened but Judas lost control of his actions by some form of divine intervention and became the puppet of God in order for Jesus to achieve what he set out to do.

2) Why is Judas vilified in Christianity? I don't think it should be as straightforward as "Because he betrayed Jesus". Christians have Judas to thank for him assisting Jesus in ridding the world of original sin. Jesus didn't come to Earth to live a long life, he was supposed to die.

3) If you, as a Christian, were in Judas' position, would you set Jesus up to be crucified or would you condemn humanity to the punishment of sin and death by denying Jesus his blood sacrifice?

kelly1

Phil 2:5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

PDN

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I have a three part question relating to Judas:

Judas accompanied Jesus through his ministry so it is fair to assume that he witnessed most of the supposed miracles, why on earth would someone betray a man who is able to calm storms, raise people from the dead, feed thousands with a few loaves and fish, heal lepers, walk on water, and turn water into wine? I can think of 3 possible answers; (a) either these events never happened and were a later invention, (b) Jesus did appear to work miracles but was a fraud and Judas was aware of this, or (c) they really happened but Judas lost control of his actions by some form of divine intervention and became the puppet of God in order for Jesus to achieve what he set out to do.

The answer is, quite simply, sin. Judas was greedy for money, and possibly not overly impressed that despite all the miracles Jesus was asking his disciples to walk a path of persecution and probable martyrdom.

Sin causes people to do things that fly in the face of everything they know to be true. Middle-aged men get involved in pathetic sexual affairs when its perfectly obvious that the relationship won't last and that the end result will mean losing their marriage and earning the contempt of their kids. The lure of short term temptation will often overcome good sense - so don't get too logical in trying to figure out why Judas did what he did.

A good illustration of Judas is Cypher, in The Matrix film. Cypher betrays his comrades in order to enjoy the luxuries of a virtual reality world that he knows is an illusion.

Why is Judas vilified in Christianity? I don't think it should be as straightforward as "Because he betrayed Jesus". Christians have Judas to thank for him assisting Jesus in ridding the world of original sin. Jesus didn't come to Earth to live a long life, he was supposed to die.

Because Judas was a traitor, and treachery is despised by most human societies. The fact that his bad actions helped a good thing to happen doesn't absolve him of his guilt. The end does not justify the means.

Of course this does not stop speculation. Time to quote Bob Dylan again, from his "The Times They are AChangin" album:
In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

If you, as a Christian, were in Judas' position, would you set Jesus up to be crucified or would you condemn humanity to the punishment of sin and death by denying Jesus his blood sacrifice?

If Judas hadn't done the dirty deed then someone else would have. You don't get in the face of the religious establishment as much as Jesus did and get away with it. Those guys get you in the end.

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote: »

He has always been God. When He came to Earth He was fully both. But He lived as a man, went through life as one, was tempted, felt pain, hunger, insecurity.

ok.

The Bible tells us that at the age of 12 He taught in the Temple. At the beginning of His minstry He announced in the Temple that He was the fulfillment of a prophecy in Isaiah. At that point He knew. During His ministry He knew His purpose and what was going to happen to Him.

Previously you said that thigs were revealed to him by his father during his lifetime. So at what stage did he know who he was? or did he always know?

But He didn't want to know the hour of His second coming, for whtever purpose, so He didn't.

you base that on him saying that he didn't know, only his father in heaven knew. So because of the trinity doctrine, you must then reason, he didn't want to know because he is God anyway, it in no way says that, but obviously you must assume this to concur with the trinity. So when he got back to heaven he then knew? So The father and the Son are parts of a triune godhead, but at times the father can know more than the son and vice versa?

kelly1

I haven't read these but they're relevant:

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Faith/0304-97/christo2.html
http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=5793