when to do weights,

lmtduffy

Right,
ive become very busy physically now,
I do judo 2hrs, Muay thai 2hrs, swimming lessons 45min, go hill walking/mountaineering 5-7hrs once a week(its ending soon),
I used to just do weights 2-3 times a week.

Im just wondering is it sensible to do weight lifiting on the same day as any of the above?
if so should I do it before or after the above activities
As I figure this may be overworking,
But I also think its important to have days of rest,
So how should I work it out?

I want to build up muscle and am doing my best to keep my diet up,
Would whey protein be beneficial?
and any other comments please,

thanks.

Colm_OReilly

When do you do these activities? What days/times?

What days do you have free? Have you mornings to work out?

Need answers to these before we can prescribe anything.

lmtduffy

Monday, college 9-2, free till 9, then judo 9-11,
Tuesday, college 10-5, swimming 7-8,
Wednesday, College 10-11, free for 3 hours, college 2-5,Judo 7-9.
Thursday, College 10-11, free for 4 hours, college 3-4, Thai boxing 7-9.
Friday, usually work 7-11pm,
Saturday work 7-11pm
Sunday mountaineering 9-8pm(Wont be doing this again till after Christmas)

I normally only do Judo once a week,
I have access to a gym,
And have weights at home.

Colm_OReilly

You've plenty of time to get in a decent weights program. You've lunches free, long rest periods between college and sport.

Dragan

I'm with Colm, with decent rest, the opportuinity to take naps, eating enough and the right things and solid sleep at night the human body can withstand and flourish under an amazing workload.

lmtduffy

So should I do weights on the same days as the other stuff,

or different days,

and what about whey protein?

Colm_OReilly

If you're doing stuff on every day you can't really avoid doing weights the same days as ma.

I'd say do the weights training Mon/Wed/Fri based on your schedule, although perhaps start off two days a week for a fortnight and see how you're doing?

As for whey protein, is your diet spot on? I pretty much guarantee it's not. And given the amount of free time you do have there's no reason why you should be supplementing.

lmtduffy

My diet is normally, porridge and fruit for breakfast,

usually soup sandwich or some meat and veg for lunch,

then meat and veg again, for dinner

then generally meat before bed, as in fajitas or bolognaise without pasta,

Im just figuring with the amount of cardio based stuff its gonna be difficult to keep the calorie surplus,

I walk a lot as well.

Dawei

The first thing I would like to ask is why you want do weight training? bigger muscle or to surpport martial art training, as body building and martial art training are contradicted, although weight training is essential for martial art. so you need to know which is more important for you.

Black Swan

With all that you already do, I would wonder why you would add weight training to your routine?

Protein? I didn't see fish in your post. Or milk? Cheese? You could also add soy drinks?

Colm_OReilly

Your diet is poor, at best.

As for weight training, physical strength is the most important thing in life, weather we want it to be or not.

Khannie

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

physical strength is the most important thing in life, weather we want it to be or not.

Well Colm....Either you've become a proper mentaler recently....or your taking the piss. Good Jesus, I hope it's the latter.

Roper

I vote for mentaler.

Nothingcompares

Colm has a strong dose of Crossfititis. Expect him to start supporting wars soon.

lmtduffy

I generally drink about 3 litres of milk ad ay,
and add cheese to the fajitas and to the bolognaise,

I do want to gain strength,

but I am quiet light and would like to get bigger or heavier or whatever so I have more weight to throw around in judo Thai boxing.

Never considered soy drinks are they better than milk?

Colm_OReilly

Man, I've got to be more careful with my throwaway comments while drunk/hungover!

Actually, I misinterpretted someone's post and thought they'd said weight training isn't important for martial arts.

The line, "physical strength is the most important thing in life" is from Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength (read sample page here)

Basically the intent behind this is that you need a degree of strength in order to function well in this world. It's strength that allowed you to sit upright, start crawling, walk, run, etc etc. It's a lack of strength in old age that means we can't go to the toilet unassisted, walk around the house, make a cup of tea. And it's a lack of strength that's leading to my mother's failing health as she finds it increasingly taxing to take care of her mother.

Strength is a foundational component of fitness, if we define it as the productive application of force, as this leads to improvements in balance, agility, speed, endurance, etc.

What it doesn't mean is that strength training is the only important thing in life, and all else should be sacrificed for it. Though a lot of people interpret this this way.

And I don't support the war.

Black Swan

lmtduffy wrote: »

Never considered soy drinks are they better than milk?

Not necessarily better, different tasting. I like to make an energy drink in the blender many mornings. Let's see... Soy milk, scoop of protein whey, fresh fruit or chocolate, honey, and yogurt. And if a bit hung over like Colm, toss in a raw egg (sounds terrible, but it beats "the hair of the dog!").

In addition to being a good source of protein, soy is reported to lower cholesterol for you old folks.

lmtduffy

That energy drink sounds useful,

with regards to whey protein,

is there much of a difference in the diffenrt brands?

and any ideas on how to improve my poor diet?

Valmont

lmtduffy wrote: »

My diet is normally, porridge and fruit for breakfast,

usually soup sandwich or some meat and veg for lunch,

then meat and veg again, for dinner

then generally meat before bed, as in fajitas or bolognaise without pasta,

Im just figuring with the amount of cardio based stuff its gonna be difficult to keep the calorie surplus,

I walk a lot as well.

I thought this wasy really healthy, that says alot about my diet!:eek:

lmtduffy

I tought it was adequate at least but it was refferd to as weak,

just wondering why.

Black Swan

lmtduffy wrote: »

with regards to whey protein,

is there much of a difference in the diffenrt brands?

I shopped around, trying this and that, but ended up with a product called Designer Protein Whey made by Next Proteins of Carlsbad, California. It's carried in the States by a specialty market chain called Trader Joe's. It's natural and not made in China (where you might have to worry about eating drywall or other unknown ingredients). The taste is better than most, although I do doctor it up with lots of other things thrown into my blender.

As to your diet, I am not qualified as a nutritionist, so you might either consider seeing one, or surf the web. Just keep in mind that everybody is different. There is no one best diet that suits all MA practitioners.

FiannaGym.com

First off: Zen what this "THE war" stuff? Only one war? Any war?

Okay as for the original question I'm going to be really original and proscribe Cross fit during lunch. That could be a nice 20 minutes even and you'd see huge benifits. So do it.

As for diet, I nearly puked when you said you drink 3 litres of milk a day. Anyway, keep that up and kiss your bones good bye! Dairy is bad, as we have concluded on this forum a zillion times.

Meat and fish (animal) should be the mainstay of your diet. Even the ancient greeks, who were vegitarians and beleived the consumption of meet to be barbaric (in the correct sense of the word) fed their athletes meat. Get animal into you.

So basically my next peice of shocking originality on this will be eat PALEO!

Peace

lmtduffy

Whats paleo,

Ive never heard of milk bieng put down whats wrong with it?

Dragan

lmtduffy wrote: »

Whats paleo

Okay,

this won't be helpful and Colm i apologise in advance but for the simpler things like "what paleo" you really could just try google.

Nothingcompares

Well just to put things in a tiny bit of perspective, Colm O'Reilly, FiannaGym.com and Dragan can be considered Fitness and Nutritional elitists and what they prescribe for Joe Bloggs, in my interpretation, they'd prescribe for someone who wants to be an Olympic Champion.

The Paleo diet is the anti-established-Irish diet. This means, the food groups the traditionally Irish people consider "healthy" or positive for a healthy diet are actually forbidden and bad for you. Examples include - Ham and Cheese sandwich, A Bowl of Branflakes, Roast potatoes, a pint of milk.

The Paleo diet revolves around the consumption of foods our early ancestors ate before the agricultural revolution (mass production of cereals). So good foods are meat and fish, vegetables that can be eaten raw and nuts, fruits and berries (in moderation).

So:

No Diary (cheese, milk)
No cereals (rice, grain, and therefore no "breakfast cereals" or bread)
No refined sugar

The paleo diet, in my opinion, is a nutritious but low calorie diet that will if you follow if for a few months, help you on your way to becoming ripped. However, it's a big step for a lot of people.

Black Swan

There is an interesting food pyramid tracker you may want to investigate. See link.

Also in Grandjean, A.C., Reimers, K.J., and Ruud, J.S. (1998), "Dietary Habits of Olympic Athletes," Chapter 15, Nutrition in Exercise and Sport, it was observed about the dietary habits of Olympic athletes: "Generous helping of steak, eggs, and milk were often consumed..."

If you seek non-trendy sport nutrition dietary findings based on scholarly research, suggest you surf Google Scholar (beta) for journal articles and books. Two useful key search terms: Sport nutrition.

takeda shingen

seriously, whats the problem with milk and how does it affect your bones?
what about the whole if you want to get big try the squats 'n' milk thing.?
confused....

Red Hand

No cereals? Ancient humans ate cereals-evidence has been found of hunter gatherer societies having simple pounding stones for grinding rye and oats. Yes-before mass production of cereals.

What exactly is wrong with a bowl of porridge for breakfast? I don't add any sugar to mine so a good deal of it is complex carbohydrates, I'd thought.

I can understand dumping cheese as it is usually about 40% fat...but why dump milk? (Milk in moderation, I mean, not 3 litres of it a day like the OP says) How exactly does, say a glass of it, leach calcium from the bones as someone mentioned above? If one suggests that the amino acids from the breakdown of milk proteins do this...why isn't this true of any other type of amino acid?

If you think about it why would an adult homo sapien be genetically adapted to consume the milk of another species in large quantities (intended only for young cows of a very limited age).

The argument is that we stop producing lactase the enzyme required to break down lactose and as a result milk causes haywire in our systems. NOTE: this is my limited memory of the typical anti-milk argument

Makes sense to me that beyond babyhood we really shouldn't be drinking milk (particularily that from a cow). As such I limit my intake of dairy. It just seems a little creepy to me.

lmtduffy

Well I figure im gonna stick to my diet,

I like milk,

and I still have lots of growing to do im only 18 so I figure Ill keep going the way I am.

The paleo diet seems more like a philosophy rather than a science based thing,

And that’s okay as I think what you think your doing is just as important as what your doing as long as you get results,(yes apply some moderation and reasoning too)

But my attitude towards milk is baby cows drink it to get as big as big cows or bulls,

who in the past were much larger,

so I shall drink it in an attempt to get a big as a big cow or bull.

Colm_OReilly

*big deep breath*

Colm O'Reilly, FiannaGym.com and Dragan can be considered Fitness and Nutritional elitists and what they prescribe for Joe Bloggs, in my interpretation, they'd prescribe for someone who wants to be an Olympic Champion.

The needs of an Olympic athlete and Joe Bloggs differ by degree, not kind. http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/what-crossfit.html

seriously, whats the problem with milk and how does it affect your bones?

In addition to what Columok said - which would be the simplest way of explaining things - dairy increasese your Potential Renal Acid Load, which means you piss out more calcium than you take in. Evidence of this is the American population, which consumes frightful amounts of milk yet still has an exceedingly high rate of oesteo-skeletal diseases. See: http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritional_tools/acid.shtml

No cereals? Ancient humans ate cereals-evidence has been found of hunter gatherer societies having simple pounding stones for grinding rye and oats. Yes-before mass production of cereals.

May we see this please?

What exactly is wrong with a bowl of porridge for breakfast? I don't add any sugar to mine so a good deal of it is complex carbohydrates, I'd thought.

Current mainstream dietary prescriptions advocate grains as a mainstay - which aside from the toxic effect of a lot grains they're nutritionally poor when compared to vegetables.

An overconsumption of carbohydrates (out of balance with Protein and Fat) leads to hyperinsulinemia. Hyperinsulinemia is found to be the causative force in hypertension, Upper-body obesity, glucose intolerance & hypertriglyceridemia. Essentially insulin gets you fat and f*cked up. Insulin causes fat to be stored instead being used as a full source.

See: http://www.survivediabetes.com/refs.htm for a reproduction of his famous "deathly quartet" piece from the Journal of Internal Medicine.

The paleo diet seems more like a philosophy rather than a science based thing

Please tell that to Dr. Loren Cordain, PhD, Dr. Norman Kaplan, Dr. Barry Sears (although Sears isn't as Paleo orientated as the Cordain, he still prescribes a drastic reduction in unfavourable carbohydrates)

But my attitude towards milk is baby cows drink it to get as big as big cows or bulls,

who in the past were much larger,

so I shall drink it in an attempt to get a big as a big cow or bull.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_does_a_cow_weigh - You would never healthily be as big as a big cows or bulls

See Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel" for evidence and reasoning why animals were not larger pre domestication.

Cows also chew on grass, will you do this? They also have completely different internal systems to our own.

The paleo diet, in my opinion, is a nutritious but low calorie diet that will if you follow if for a few months, help you on your way to becoming ripped.

Nutritious, yes, but how can something be low calorie if you eat enough? Surely a brekkie roll diet can be low calory if that's all you eat for the day?

However, it's a big step for a lot of people.

True, but it's not as daunting as you think once you begin. As it's quite contrarian most people will have reactions similar to the ones posted above to a suggestion that their diet is in need of major overhaul.

Eat meat and vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and no sugar. Keep intake to levels that will support exercise but not body fat.

spiral

Colm just out of interest if one was following a fairly strict Paleo or Zone diet roughly what proportion of your calories comes from Carbs ?

Tim_Murphy

It just seems a little creepy to me.

Well there's a hard hitting scientific reason right there!

To the OP,If you are really interested in finding out more about diets and nutrition then I’d imagine talking to an actual nutritionist might be a good option instead of just talking to people on a martial arts forum.

Tim_Murphy

Current mainstream dietary prescriptions advocate grains as a mainstay - which aside from the toxic effect of a lot grains they're nutritionally poor when compared to vegetables.

If people are going to argue against mainstream, well established, opinion then the onus is on them to provide a lot of evidence for that they are saying. There are generally good reasons why some opinions/approaches are mainstream and others are fringe.

Roper

Just to chip in. Was discussing this with a scientician... I think thats what they're called now... and she was saying that cow milk and human milk are negligibly different from a dietary point of view. Milk is essentially balls of fat suspended in water, this doesn't really differ from species to species.

What is clear is that milk shouldn't be consumed in great quantity past a certain age.

Just for some clearing up, I went Paleo for a while, and it was okay. Expensive, unsustainable, but okay. To be honest it wasn't a major leap for me as I wasn't a huge carb eater beforehand and I ma a carnivore. I found that my recovery times after hard session were much, much worse. I was sluggish on mornings after strength work beyond normal. Basically I missed carbohydrates post work out and it would have taken a serious amount of veg to fill that hole.

I did shed weight though, and kept muscle mass.

takeda shingen

a Farmer i know use to drink about 4 litres a day of unpasteurised milk, straight from the cow, still warm almost. He was as strong as one of his bulls, actually he could manhandle his prize charolais bull with reasonable ease (he didnt milk the bull*). Anyway he recently got a quadruple bypass due to cholesterol deposits in his heart from the 4 litres+ aday he drank from probably age 8 to 55. But he was strong....


*see kingpin

DITTKD

lmtduffy wrote: »

But my attitude towards milk is baby cows drink it to get as big as big cows or bulls,

who in the past were much larger

Cow's and bulls were actually much smaller in the past. They didn't get big till the mid 18th century.
Not that that really has anything to do with anything but....

Red Hand

columok wrote: »

If you think about it why would an adult homo sapien be genetically adapted to consume the milk of another species in large quantities (intended only for young cows of a very limited age).

The argument is that we stop producing lactase the enzyme required to break down lactose and as a result milk causes haywire in our systems. NOTE: this is my limited memory of the typical anti-milk argument

Makes sense to me that beyond babyhood we really shouldn't be drinking milk (particularily that from a cow). As such I limit my intake of dairy. It just seems a little creepy to me.

Well, if I remember from school, people of Northern European decent are those with the greatest lactose tolerance, with many producing lactase as adults. Evidence of evolution still at work, eh?

It's possibly due to a long history of pastoralist backgrounds as seen in such cultures such as the Celts and Teutons.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

May we see this please?

From the Journal of Human Evolution 50 (2006) 644-662


If you are interested, here is the link from which I've taken the piece of text below. http://archlgy.haifa.ac.il/ohalo/nadel-wood-jhe.pdf


A flat grinding stone was preserved on the second floor of
hut 1. It was carefully placed and leveled (Nadel, 2003), and
used for grinding cereals, as indicated by identified starch
grains retrieved from cavities in the stone’s surface (Piperno
et al., 2004).



Note: the site from which this paper is based upon was a fisher hunter gatherer's camp, dated to 22,500-23,500 years before present which was in the Upper Paleolithic. And, I admit, I was wrong to have said that it was a pounding tool in my original post...it was actually a grinding device.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Current mainstream dietary prescriptions advocate grains as a mainstay - which aside from the toxic effect of a lot grains they're nutritionally poor when compared to vegetables.

An overconsumption of carbohydrates (out of balance with Protein and Fat) leads to hyperinsulinemia. Hyperinsulinemia is found to be the causative force in hypertension, Upper-body obesity, glucose intolerance & hypertriglyceridemia. Essentially insulin gets you fat and f*cked up. Insulin causes fat to be stored instead being used as a full source.

Well, I never said that one was to gorge themselves on cereals-over consumption of any of the food groups is obviously a bad thing considering that humans are omnivores. I was merely asking whether a bowl of porridge was such a bad thing according to the advocates of the Paleo diet, for a poster had said above (I think it was Nothingcompares) that one should eat no cereals if on such a diet.

For me, oat porridge would really be the only cereal I would have and even then, it would be only once a day.

Black Swan

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

To the OP,If you are really interested in finding out more about diets and nutrition then I’d imagine talking to an actual nutritionist might be a good option instead of just talking to people on a martial arts forum.

Agree. Mentioned consulting a qualified nutritionist in my first post earlier on this thread. Although we may be well intended in MA, I doubt anyone here is qualified by both degree and license to practice as a nutritionist.

It would be like going to an advanced black belt in karate (or some other weaponless MA) with years of training, grading, tournaments, teaching, and experience in karate, and ask them to train you in swordmastery (when they are not a qualified swordmaster, other than having taken a short seminar from some big named so-and-so, read a couple of books, saw a few action films like Seven Samurai, and maybe cut a few cucumbers during public demos).;)

Jeremiah

Well when you really think about it- wouldn't it be really weird if an adult human regularily drank human breast milk? Then add in jumping species and it just seems creepy tbh. I still have milk in my coffee every now and then but I recognise that it's a really weird thing for a species to do and AFAIK unprecedented in the natural world.

Jeremiah wrote:

Well, if I remember from school, people of Northern European decent are those with the greatest lactose tolerance, with many producing lactase as adults. Evidence of evolution still at work, eh?

It's possibly due to a long history of pastoralist backgrounds as seen in such cultures such as the Celts and Teutons.

We also have a higher immunity to alcohol. It doesn't mean that alcohol is either natural or good for us.

TKD SC

Think it's "creepier" eating animal FLESH than animal/cow Milk since we're on the subject!!!

BobbyOLeary

I dunno, I've yet to see conclusive evidence either way about dairy consumption. Some reports I've read say it reduces the risk of IRS (Insulin Resistance Syndrome), some reports say it can adversely affect fertility (Though that same report said that consuming high-fat dairy products would positively affect fertility.). It could be that dairy has such wide effects that it may be impossible to nail down in one study.

Colm, while I'm sure all those Doctors are very well educated and quite clever people they've yet to come up with conclusive evidence to support their theory. Seems odd in my opinion that such an amazing diet that promises great results has yet to be backed up by studies. While in the spirit of science its impossible to prove you wrong I think I'll stick with my traditional diet until I see some proof.

johnathan woss

I just had a look at the paleo diet and it recommends avoiding potatoes.
That pretty much rules it out for me. I'd say I eat potatoes 9 days out of 10 !

To be honest it looks like a good diet but very very very expensive to follow all the time.

Colm_OReilly

I never said that one was to gorge themselves on cereals-over consumption of any of the food groups is obviously a bad thing

It's my contention that if one followed the prescription in the current USDA style food pyramid leads to an overconsumption of carbohydrate, particular grains.

Thanks for the link, appreciate it. It's been a while since I read The Paleo Diet and did my research on it so maybe that was mentioned. I can only really recall the broad strokes. Definitely interesting though. Was that time period close to the start of agriculture do you know? i.e. What stage in the paleolithic people's history was this from?

Tim,

Mainstream opinion and common knowledge are usually questionable.

I'm surprised that Roper had reduced recovery times/abilities on Paleo. For my part the more Paleo I go the quicker my recovery and better my performance.

Someone asked about the Zone. C/P/F balance is 40/30/30, increasing the fat content if you feel you need more energy. 3 meals a day you eat protein the size of your palm, same amount of unfavourable carbs, double if favourable. Few nuts. Two snacks of smaller proportions during the day as well.

Tim_Murphy

Tim,

Mainstream opinion and common knowledge are usually questionable.

So the opinions of those who are actually qualified on the subject of nutrition , nutritionists, doctors etc, are usually questionable? That’s a pretty big claim to make. Have you much to back that up?

Scramble

I haven't found the paleo diet expensive at all, to be honest- I'm starting to wonder if I'm missing something, since its been mentioned twice in this thread?

You might end up spending a fair bit on good quality fish and meat, but whats the alternative? Stuff that is not included on the diet, dairy, cereals, sugary foods and drinks all tends to be more expensive (and come in heaps more wasteful packaging, incidentally).

I allow myself one 'cheat' day a week, where I'd get a curry, rice and naan bread from Bombay Pantry, or something like that. Maybe this defeats the purpose to some extent, but I'll put up my hand and say that I eat for more than performance- I also just like nice food even if it isn't necessarily nutrionally great for us. After all- Beer, anyone?

Roper

I should clarify the expense thing.

On my current diet I eat 4-6 meals a day, with paleo I was so damn hungry all the time that to remain faithful to the diet meant anything up to 8 meals a day, all containing meat. My metabolism is high and I'm usually ready to eat again within 30 mins of a meal if that meal didn't contain carbs it's be worse again.

Colm in answer to your recovery question, I would hazard that I was having difficulty getting in enough calories to recover properly- see above. It's damn hard to eat 8 meals a day!

I am not saying that paleo is bad per se, I tried it, was impressed by the early results, but ultimately wasn't willing to put up with the difficulties I encountered. I would say that scientifically its foundations are shaky, but it certainly had a lot of early results for me.

Red Hand

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Thanks for the link, appreciate it. It's been a while since I read The Paleo Diet and did my research on it so maybe that was mentioned. I can only really recall the broad strokes. Definitely interesting though. Was that time period close to the start of agriculture do you know? i.e. What stage in the paleolithic people's history was this from?

Carbon dating placed the artifact in question to 22,500-23,500 years before present which was in or around the end of the Wuerm intersticial warming during the last ice age-a time when the ice receded a little bit until it cooled again and advanced for a few more thousand years. Agriculture began (or should I say, the earliest evidence of agriculture has been found) when the ice finally started receding back to the North pole around 12,000 years ago (as far as I can remember).

Roper

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

12,000 years ago (as far as I can remember).

Impressive memory.

TKD SC

Roper wrote: »

Impressive memory.

..

Red Hand

columok wrote: »

We also have a higher immunity to alcohol. It doesn't mean that alcohol is either natural or good for us.

Some scholars have pointed out that in towns and cities in the Northen Europe during the middle ages and after, the water supply was often contaminated with microbes or viruses. Drinking ale or beer or wine was often a safer option as the alcohol limited bugs present.

Roper wrote: »

Impressive memory.

Rapier-like.;)