New bulletin board for Irish Catholics

Michael G

Having failed to find anything like it, I have set up a new bulletin board for Irish Catholics here.

May I ask any readers to pass around the word about this new site. Boards.ie readers and contributors (whether Catholic or not) will of course be more than welcome to bring their ideas to it.

Thank you.

Dave!

I would have thought that boards.ie would be sufficient, but apparantly not!

PDN

DaveMcG wrote: »

I would have thought that boards.ie would be sufficient, but apparantly not!

While not a Catholic myself I sympathise with Michael not seeing boards.ie as sufficient.

I am frequently embarrassed when an obviously Catholic poster asks a question concerning their faith, clearly seeking an answer from a Catholic perspective, and other, doubtless well-meaning, Christians post stuff like, "Catholicism isn't the only form of Christianity. Why don't you try another church?"

I think that good manners should dictate that if a Christian is asking a question or seeking advice from other Christians then others (ie atheists etc) should refrain from hijacking the thread. On the whole our regular atheist posters observe this convention (although you get the odd new poster who can't resist making an ass of themselves). Unfortunately non-Catholic Christians appear unable to extend similar courtesy to what are clearly in-house Catholic threads. I would see Michael's board as an understandable consequence of such 'friendly fire'.

Dave!

This has been discussed before... It all comes down to this:

i. there should be rules dictating what is acceptable and expected
ii. if the rules are broken, as in every forum, the perp should be banned
iii. it is the role of the moderator/s to enforce the rules
iv. if the rules are not being enforced, then it is up to the users to take it up with the mod
v. if the mod is not open to suggestions/criticism then a user should start a thread in Feedback and leave it with the admins to bring in a new mod or have a word with the current one

If you don't think that BrianCalgary is implementing the rules, then PM him about it. If I'm not mistaken, he's had some family issues to keep him occupied, and I wish him and his family all the best, but perhaps it's not leaving him much time to be on boards. Or maybe he's just too soft!

Either way, it's rectifiable, I don't see any need for a new forum, but if ye feel it's necessary, go for it. I'd suggest using different software though, cos the current one is terrible. www.proboards.com host decent forums for those like myself who are too lazy to install and host their own

PDN

I don't think it's a problem with rules or modding - just bad manners.

Dave!

If you want that 'christian/catholic/protestant/whatever responses only thread' rule introduced (dunno if it is already) then ask Brian... this thread could be used to argue over the specifics and then I'm sure Brian could sort it out.

Rev Hellfire

I can certainly understand your rational for wanting a separate forum for the discussion of Christianity as viewed from the catholic perspective without having to deal with the noise generated by what are I'm sure are well meaning evangelical protestants.

But two things

• You could always look about getting either a catholicism forum or perhaps a sub forum off the Christianity forum on boards.ie. A request here should get the ball rolling. (time travels slowly in the system category btw don't expect an immediate response.)
• The forums you've picked are awful, no offense. For a minimal amount of money you could get hosting for yourself and stick up something like SMF or phpBB which are much nicer and more feature rich, while allowing you room to expand should your community grow.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

While not a Catholic myself I sympathise with Michael not seeing boards.ie as sufficient.

I am frequently embarrassed when an obviously Catholic poster asks a question concerning their faith, clearly seeking an answer from a Catholic perspective, and other, doubtless well-meaning, Christians post stuff like, "Catholicism isn't the only form of Christianity. Why don't you try another church?"

I think that good manners should dictate that if a Christian is asking a question or seeking advice from other Christians then others (ie atheists etc) should refrain from hijacking the thread. On the whole our regular atheist posters observe this convention (although you get the odd new poster who can't resist making an ass of themselves). Unfortunately non-Catholic Christians appear unable to extend similar courtesy to what are clearly in-house Catholic threads. I would see Michael's board as an understandable consequence of such 'friendly fire'.

I thought I agreed with you until I looked back at the previous 3 pages of topics. There is no Catholic threads apart from one about Marthas Novena, and only found one thread about someone who had problems with their Catholicism. On that occasion, there was advice to look to Christ rather than catholicism by myself and Wolfsbane. Certainly nothing that you should be embarassed about, if thats the thread you are talking about? I think it was quite well placed. Wolfsbane gave a terrific post and I gave the value of my experiences. I certainly hope this wasn't what embarassed you, but anyway. Apart from that, there has been no Catholic Topics. There is an unwritten agreement here if someone wants 'Christian only' response they say it, and its adheared to. If a Catholic posted 'Catholic only', I'd certainly let it be, but none have. This is a Christian forum, so if a question is posed in a Christian forum without asking for 'Catholic only' responses, then people are going to give their opinion/advice etc. Or have I missed something?

Michael G

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The forums you've picked are awful, no offense. For a minimal amount of money you could get hosting for yourself and stick up something like SMF or phpBB which are much nicer and more feature rich, while allowing you room to expand should your community grow.

Thanks for the comments. I agree that the forum doesn't look great but I haven't started exploring the formatting features yet. I'm going to try to make it better. If I can't, I'll have to look for alternatives.

Fanny Cradock

Yes, I would definitely consider alternatives. As it stands, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, the forum wouldn't really entice people to join. As has been mentioned by the good Rev, you should check out open source (i.e. free) options such as phpBB

Michael G

Again thanks for the advice. I have to say I expected much less friendly responses. Is this any better, or should I keep looking at some of the alternatives you have suggested? I want something I can set up and manage easily, not something where I have to learn how to use source code.

Dave!

That looks a bit better, but to be honest I think proboards is the best choice considering your lack of expertise.

You can see an example of a proboards forum here. It's free too of course.

Fanny Cradock

Yeah, it is an improvement. Though my big issue is that actually accessing the content (which is the whole idea) is still a very cumbersome process. I would definitely take Dave's advice and move this to a more user friendly forum like he suggested. It may not be flash but it does the job. You can start with that as a test run and then, by the grace of God, move onto something a little more professional if it takes off!

Michael G

Again, thank you very much. I'm trying another site. And I must say again that I am surprised by and thankful for the friendly and helpful responses I am getting here, from people that I know don't agree with me on theological matters.

kelly1

Just on a general point, I find it strange that in a country that is supposedly mostly Catholic, that there are so few Catholics on this board. There are often times when I could do with the support when defending my faith. It's a bit like swimming in shark-infested waters at times! :-)

BTW PDN, your first post was very fair and much appreciated.

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

BTW PDN, your first post was very fair and much appreciated.

God bless,
Noel.

i really don't get this sentiment It is a 'Christian' forum is it not? If a christian see's issue with what another christian is saying, what is the problem? I frequently question folk Christians who post things i see as erronious etc. Is that swimming with sharks? Catholics are probably easy pickings as they put themselves on a pedistool. Frequent, 'we are better than you' type postings. One true church, the only true sacrament etc. Yet it seems still, that there is a perception that they are persecuted here. The mind boggles As i said, if you want to discuss 'catholic' beliefs then ask for catholic response. however, if you are trying to engage 'christians', then you have to expect some criticism of your own doctrines, which many christians find, to put it mildly, erroneous.

humanji

I seem to see more condescending posts by others aimed at Catholics and Christians in general.

Read here to see how accepting of others beliefs we are :rolleyes:

Rev Hellfire

Perhaps all thats needed is for the mods here to take a few tips from the Islam forum where such behavior doesn't occur.

Michael G

I have taken the advice offered here and the Irish Catholics board is now here. Everyone is welcome to visit, but it is for Catholics and I won't accept any posts that are aggressively anti-Catholic or anti-Christian.

Again, sincere thanks to those who gave me helpful advice.

I intend to continue to post here and challenge atheists and fundamentalist Protestants.

Michael G

JimiTime wrote: »

i really don't get this sentiment It is a 'Christian' forum is it not? If a christian see's issue with what another christian is saying, what is the problem? I frequently question folk Christians who post things i see as erronious etc. Is that swimming with sharks? Catholics are probably easy pickings as they put themselves on a pedistool. Frequent, 'we are better than you' type postings. One true church, the only true sacrament etc. Yet it seems still, that there is a perception that they are persecuted here. The mind boggles As i said, if you want to discuss 'catholic' beliefs then ask for catholic response. however, if you are trying to engage 'christians', then you have to expect some criticism of your own doctrines, which many christians find, to put it mildly, erroneous.

Jimi, you will be very welcome to post on Irish Catholics. You have a legitimate point of view. I just want polite discussions there; nothing aggressive.

Mrs. MacGyver

As a protestamt (who studied theology in a Catholic College!) I hink the section on liturgy on your forum could prove quite interesting, what with the increased role of the laity (in youth mass perp, communion prep etc.) Good luck with your new endeavour!

Mrs. M.

Michael G

Mrs. MacGyver wrote: »

As a protestamt (who studied theology in a Catholic College!) I hink the section on liturgy on your forum could prove quite interesting, what with the increased role of the laity (in youth mass perp, communion prep etc.) Good luck with your new endeavour!

Thank you. I would probably disagree with you on those things, but if the Board has any purpose it is for debate and the exchange of ideas. I hope to see you posting there before long.

Michael G

My humble board gets a gratifying amount of attention but it is either from atheists or from traditionalist Catholics. I am disappointed at the absence of liberal Catholics but I do understand that, forty years after Vatican II, many of them need to go to bed early and the rest can't remember where they left their teeth.

santing

Michael G wrote: »

Everyone is welcome to visit, but it is for Catholics and I won't accept any posts that are aggressively anti-Catholic or anti-Christian.

...

I intend to continue to post here and challenge atheists and fundamentalist Protestants.

Michael, I presume you are aware that "fundamental Protestants in their confession of faith state that they believe in "one holy catholic church"

You may want to narrow it down ...

And btw, there are several posters here who would not classify themselves as "protestants" let alone "fundamental Protestants"! I consider myself to be an "evangelical Christian", not a protestant!

Michael G

santing wrote: »

Michael, I presume you are aware that "fundamental Protestants in their confession of faith state that they believe in "one holy catholic church" ... I consider myself to be an "evangelical Christian", not a protestant!

I wasn't aware that Protestants other than Anglican recited the Creed. Also I note that you consider yourself to be an evangelical Christian, not a protestant. You would be genuinely welcome on the Irish Catholics' Forum, which has a section open to everyone where you might find some interesting discussions. We have some lively atheists, one or two of whom are probably still hung-over from celebrating their Leaving Cert results.

sorella

As Michael may remember I tried the forum, but left when they exiled all the atheists, to the point of deleting all threads in which they had been active

That was after the date of this post.

There was nothing even vaguely liberal being posted any more.

why? Because we tend to forget that we are to be salt and light.

Also some of the postings were aggressive.

and it was becoming very narrow and unwelcoming.

we need to be uplifting and supporting each other.

Not shooting each other down in flames because our views differ slightly.

Michael G wrote: »

I wasn't aware that Protestants other than Anglican recited the Creed. Also I note that you consider yourself to be an evangelical Christian, not a protestant. You would be genuinely welcome on the Irish Catholics' Forum, which has a section open to everyone where you might find some interesting discussions. We have some lively atheists, one or two of whom are probably still hung-over from celebrating their Leaving Cert results.

robindch

sorella wrote: »

As Michael may remember I tried the forum, but left when they exiled all the atheists, to the point of deleting all threads in which they had been active

hmm... that's a bit extreme, but I do remember that one of the reasons for setting up the forum in the first place was to avoid the non-catholics that inhabit this forum

Just checking out the forum now, I see that they're currently discussing whether the Sun goes around the Earth, or the Earth goes around the sun. That thread is here.

Perhaps it's best to leave them be!

Dades

robindch wrote: »

Just checking out the forum now, I see that they're currently discussing whether the Sun goes around the Earth, or the Earth goes around the sun.

I'd better keep an eye on the outcome of that in case I need to revise my location!
<--

studiorat

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Perhaps all thats needed is for the mods here to take a few tips from the Islam forum where such behavior doesn't occur.

Most of the atheists here would be from a christian background I'd guess. Besides the poor old muslims are getting enough grief already.

btw it's silly season there at the moment too http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=57425928&posted=1#post57425928

sorella

well at first they welcomed atheists and others, then the whole thing changed.

Surely vatican two seeks to befriend not to alienate and divide more.

I left because everything I posted was attacked by hitting me over the head with quotations from some obscure bit of Canon Law.

If we lose sight of the love of Jesus in a welter of legalism then what is the point of anything?

I don't need to know how many angels dance on the head of a pin; rather how to obey and live the teachings of Jesus.

and to bring others to that love.

Nor do I seek to live in a ghetto; I quoted the book of Nehemiah on that.

ah well!.

robindch wrote: »

hmm... that's a bit extreme, but I do remember that one of the reasons for setting up the forum in the first place was to avoid the non-catholics that inhabit this forum

Just checking out the forum now, I see that they're currently discussing whether the Sun goes around the Earth, or the Earth goes around the sun. That thread is here.

Perhaps it's best to leave them be!

JimiTime

sorella wrote: »

If we lose sight of the love of Jesus in a welter of legalism then what is the point of anything?

I like your thinking! Indeed, I like such legalism to the shackles of the Pharisee's of Jesus' time. I think alot of people respond to such hard and fast rules though. Its easier to leave such matters in the hands of legislaters than have to think about it yourself. Christs law of Love is there for all who wish to embrace it. It free's us from the legislative shackles. Just like The Mosaic Law was nailed to the wood with Jesus.

Michael G

robindch wrote: »

Just checking out the forum now, I see that they're currently discussing whether the Sun goes around the Earth, or the Earth goes around the sun. That thread is here.

Perhaps it's best to leave them be!

Actually that thread was started by one of the well-behaved atheists who survived the recent purge. I think he (she?) is trying to tease out attitudes to the evolution/creationism debate.

sorella

We rest our case; Maranatha; COME Lord Jesus.....In your lovingkindness embrace all...

Michael G wrote: »

Actually that thread was started by one of the well-behaved atheists who survived the recent purge. I think he (she?) is trying to tease out attitudes to the evolution/creationism debate.

Michael G

sorella wrote: »

We rest our case; Maranatha; COME Lord Jesus.....In your lovingkindness embrace all...

I have given over control to another member, but I set up the Irish Catholics' Forum mainly for Traditional Catholics who are marginalised by the present (and, happily, ageing) establishment in the Irish Church. I have noticed that although the atheists are full of energy and ideas, the "Spirit of Vatican II" people have been unwilling or unable to engage us in rational debate. All we have got from them have been slogans like these, redolent of the 1970s and not something to which one can reply usefully. Can anyone offer a rational defence of the way Vatican II has been interpreted in Ireland, England (Scotland, interestingly, has been different) or Northern Europe; as opposed to a sentimental one?

sorella

Michael; I discussed this with my Abbess. Re the strange ideas re marginalisation. It is not true, simply.

If by "slogans" you mean my sincere words of Jesus, then you are in far greater trouble spiritually than we previously thought.

If you had not noticed, there has been a coming together of late.

Your comment re (Happily ageing) takes the breath away with its utter lack of charity and thought for others. The Christian Church in Ireland is in deep trouble... your attitude is not helping. People are hurting.

This is what I saw and experienced on your forum and is why I left. You are creating more and more divisions because spiritually you are marginalising yourself.

Charnel breath rises from the forum.

As i told you, it was not the atheists who concerned me, but the worst kind of narrowmindedness and intolerance.

The other main reason I left was because while there was so much use of ancient canon law, there was no mention of Jesus Christ, Son of God Saviour anywhere on the list.

And when I in truth quote Him?

He Who founded the church...

You dismiss His words as sentimental?

That says it all does it not?

we bless you on your journey, we who are Brides of Christ in a tradition reaching back to the early days of the Christian Church.

Forget Vatican 2; focus on Jesus alone.

In Whom we bless you this night.

Michael G wrote: »

I have given over control to another member, but I set up the Irish Catholics' Forum mainly for Traditional Catholics who are marginalised by the present (and, happily, ageing) establishment in the Irish Church. I have noticed that although the atheists are full of energy and ideas, the "Spirit of Vatican II" people have been unwilling or unable to engage us in rational debate. All we have got from them have been slogans like these, redolent of the 1970s and not something to which one can reply usefully. Can anyone offer a rational defence of the way Vatican II has been interpreted in Ireland, England (Scotland, interestingly, has been different) or Northern Europe; as opposed to a sentimental one?

Michael G

Sorella, I think I may not have explained myself to you successfully, either in this forum or in the other one. What I resent and detest in the new liturgy, as it is so often conducted, is the intrusive, noisy and distracting concentration on the celebrant and the congregation. The Sacrifice of the Mass is downgraded by the use of the shortest of the available Eucharistic Prayers; the homilies are secular banalities; the celebrant often makes up some of the words of the Canon; Holy Communion involves taking the Sacred Host hastily and negligently on the hand from an "Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion" (not a "Eucharistic Minister" because there is no such person).

It seems to me that this can only bring us to a faithless and pointless vacuum like the one where the Church of England and their North American colleagues have now found themselves.

sorella

Michael; we hear you.

But Vatican Two was well over 40 years ago now, and still you are harbouring "resent and detest"?

And judging and generalising such bitterness - and with such sweeping generalisations

so no way is right but yours?

Vatican Two happend; period. It was a disaster and everyon knew that a year afterwards.

It cannot be unhappened and most have simply accepted that either stayed with Mass, or splintered off

Mass and liturgy are after all a tiny part of faith.

as is theology etc etc

Life in Jesus goes on.

Faith is nothing to do with a particular tradition or liturgy etc etc; but in the Resurrected Christ and in living your life to others in that love.

How can you write as you do and say that you have faith in Jesus?

Vatican Two affected religious more than any other group; yet we quietly stayed with what our Rule and constitution gives us. No fuss, no anger. we still wear the full Monastic habit. We meet many Irish sisters who are not living monastic lives. Or wearing the Holy Habit of religion. They are still our sisters in Christ we wish they would dress as they "should" but that is their choice simply. No anger in us; that as the Bible says, only leads to sin. Read what Jesus says also on this.

we know many fine Christians in all traditions. All kinds of "liturgy" etc ; we simply speak of the love of Jesus with them.

The vacuum is what YOU are in, my friend. sterile and faithless indeed you are...

There are many latin Masses in Ireland now of course.

Why not simply accept that it is as it is andfind some peace?

we do that; our work as an Order is to feed and care for the homeless in many lands in the world, in the Name of Jesus, as He bids us in Matthew 25, obeying His commandments to show our love for Him.
Liturgy is a tiny part of our lives in Jesus

There is a group in Orkney who might be able to help you to come to terms with all this.
see their web site

http://papastronsay.blogspot.com/index.html

email them? and vent all you need to there:)

What they have done is to simply live as they are led, without the anger and resentment you are harbouring and which will corrupt and destroy your very soul - and which alone marginalises you.

Blessings this day

Michael G wrote: »

Sorella, I think I may not have explained myself to you successfully, either in this forum or in the other one. What I resent and detest in the new liturgy, as it is so often conducted, is the intrusive, noisy and distracting concentration on the celebrant and the congregation. The Sacrifice of the Mass is downgraded by the use of the shortest of the available Eucharistic Prayers; the homilies are secular banalities; the celebrant often makes up some of the words of the Canon; Holy Communion involves taking the Sacred Host hastily and negligently on the hand from an "Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion" (not a "Eucharistic Minister" because there is no such person).

It seems to me that this can only bring us to a faithless and pointless vacuum like the one where the Church of England and their North American colleagues have now found themselves.

Michael G

sorella wrote: »

Michael [...] Vatican Two was well over 40 years ago now, and still you are harbouring "resent and detest"? [...] Vatican Two happened; period. It was a disaster and everyone knew that a year afterwards.[...] Mass and liturgy are after all a tiny part of faith [...] as is theology etc etc [...] The vacuum is what YOU are in, my friend. sterile and faithless indeed you are... [...] There is a group in Orkney who might be able to help you to come to terms with all this.

Sorella, thank you for your post. In quoting it above I have edited it but I hope in doing so I have not misrepresented it.

I should not have put such emphasis on resentment and detestation. Perhaps we come from different perspectives. Clearly you have the advantage of a spiritually rich and profound monastic life (if I may presume to say so). I am just a layman with what they call a chequered history.

I accept all of the published teachings of Vatican II, though I deplore the "Spirit of Vatican II" movement which pretends that there was some kind of "real" conclusion hidden by a political compromise in the documents. But I don't agree with you that "Mass and liturgy are after all a tiny part of faith [...] as is theology etc etc." I think the Mass is absolutely central to everything. In my return to the Church after about 15 years of indifference I went first to Anglican services (beautiful but vacuous), then to the Novus Ordo Mass as widely celebrated (banal but with some reality peeping through); finally I found both beauty and truth in the Traditional Mass.

I make my own attempts at contemplative prayer and I know that the sound and appearance of the Mass even at its most beautiful are just superficial qualities (notwithstanding the reality within of the present re-enactment of the Passion and Resurrection). However I find those qualities infinitely precious and what angers me is the way they are denied to so many people. Lex orandi, lex credendi. I know many people who have been brought up with, and blinded by, an ugly, human-focused liturgy with no apparent purpose.

You may be fortunate enough to find God in your contemplative prayer without the need for beauty in the Liturgy; but I am usually not and I suspect most people are like me.

Thank you for the link to the Redemptorists on Papastronsay but I knew of them already. May I say that I am glad they have broken their connection with the Society of St Pius X which now seems to be an increasingly cult-like organisation that has lost its connection with its founder's intentions.

DublinWriter

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I can certainly understand your rational for wanting a separate forum for the discussion of Christianity as viewed from the catholic perspective without having to deal with the noise generated by what are I'm sure are well meaning evangelical protestants.

I'd have to totally agree with that, even from the standpoint of being non-Catholic myself.

Best of luck with it Michael G, I'm sure you'll find a few of us dropping in for some friendly banter.

sorella

If we come from different perspectives, it is only because Monastics live faith rather than live religion.

We have a balance; whereas the emphasis you have seems to be on liturgy.

Work and service as well as liturgy.

It has nothing to do with what they call "contemplative prayer" or with any other tabulated prayer form.

Even before Profession, the strength of our faith is not enshrined in any one liturgy but in living the love of Jesus in our every breath in every way.

And what we learn most and what comes most hard is our utter weakness and humility before Jesus.

we find Jesus in the very poor, in our Sisters as we all struggle in our lives, and in the utter Silence where there are no words, no liturgy.

In heartbreak often.

No anger, only the love of Jesus for all.

So all you write really is irrelevant.

If you found nothing in other liturgy - and really the terms you use are so judgemental that they take the breath away - that is you.

We meet and talk and pray with many of many traditions; many of deep prayer and deeper love across all. Respecting all who are sincere in Jesus.

And always the anger in you; always that. Burning after all the decades. Spurning any and every advice and word.

Your choice, my brother in Christ.

With which you choose to live.

After all, you can participate in the Tridentine Mass; why then if it means so much, attack others in this way? Does it not fulfil your needs?

The mass, Church, praise and worship, whatever the form, should strengthen and feed us for the life we live outside that liturgy in the world that Jesus loved so much He died for it.

If it becomes an end in itself, is that not akin to idolatry?

Jesus is everywhere; we breathe Him..... We live His word Who is Word.

And we serve Him in each other in ways that are often "ugly and human-focussed": and we sing His praise in holy words as we do these things as He did them here on earth.

We bless your bitter journey once more.

Sister

Michael G wrote: »

Sorella, thank you for your post. In quoting it above I have edited it but I hope in doing so I have not misrepresented it.

I should not have put such emphasis on resentment and detestation. Perhaps we come from different perspectives. Clearly you have the advantage of a spiritually rich and profound monastic life (if I may presume to say so). I am just a layman with what they call a chequered history.

I accept all of the published teachings of Vatican II, though I deplore the "Spirit of Vatican II" movement which pretends that there was some kind of "real" conclusion hidden by a political compromise in the documents. But I don't agree with you that "Mass and liturgy are after all a tiny part of faith [...] as is theology etc etc." I think the Mass is absolutely central to everything. In my return to the Church after about 15 years of indifference I went first to Anglican services (beautiful but vacuous), then to the Novus Ordo Mass as widely celebrated (banal but with some reality peeping through); finally I found both beauty and truth in the Traditional Mass.

I make my own attempts at contemplative prayer and I know that the sound and appearance of the Mass even at its most beautiful are just superficial qualities (notwithstanding the reality within of the present re-enactment of the Passion and Resurrection). However I find those qualities infinitely precious and what angers me is the way they are denied to so many people. Lex orandi, lex credendi. I know many people who have been brought up with, and blinded by, an ugly, human-focused liturgy with no apparent purpose.

You may be fortunate enough to find God in your contemplative prayer without the need for beauty in the Liturgy; but I am usually not and I suspect most people are like me.

Thank you for the link to the Redemptorists on Papastronsay but I knew of them already. May I say that I am glad they have broken their connection with the Society of St Pius X which now seems to be an increasingly cult-like organisation that has lost its connection with its founder's intentions.

kelly1

Personally, I'm in two minds about this whole traditionalist thing.

I think the intentions behind Vatican II were good e.g. the emphasis on holiness for the laity as well as the clergy, that sainthood is something that everyone should aim for.

I also regret the head-long rush to get rid of altar rails and the high-altars and the removal of statues from churches. I really don't like the bland style of the churches which have recently been built, often with the tabernacle off to one side of the church. A church, I think, should inspire a sense of the majesty of God.

I think there should also be more prayers for protection against evil - e.g the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel which I think is prayed at the end of the latin Mass.

I can also see the reasons behind the old ways e.g. using a paten for Holy Communion and kneeling to receive Our Lord. Far too little reverence is show for the Eucharist these days.

Problems arise when people get too caught up the the details to the point where division in the Church results. There is only one Church, not a liberal and a traditional one.

My 2c.

God bless,
Noel.

sorella

This is a concern of course.

And a very real one.

Praying on this in the Silence last night, and it seems also that forgiveness is a very real issure here?

Hurts by the Church are hard; seem such a betrayal.

Yet cannot we forgive the human institution the Church is?

Read something last night Of how God forgave Lucifer.

" Do you think Prince Lucifer is not forgiven? He was forgiven in the very moment of his rebellion."

So need we do this; let hurts go and move forward

It is a hard thing to do indeed.






"Problems arise when people get too caught up the the details to the point where division in the Church results. There is only one Church, not a liberal and a traditional one."

JimiTime

sorella wrote: »

This is a concern of course.

And a very real one.

Praying on this in the Silence last night, and it seems also that forgiveness is a very real issure here?

Hurts by the Church are hard; seem such a betrayal.

Yet cannot we forgive the human institution the Church is?

Read something last night Of how God forgave Lucifer.

" Do you think Prince Lucifer is not forgiven? He was forgiven in the very moment of his rebellion."

So need we do this; let hurts go and move forward

It is a hard thing to do indeed.






"Problems arise when people get too caught up the the details to the point where division in the Church results. There is only one Church, not a liberal and a traditional one."

I must say, I've enjoyed your conversation with MichaelG and wholeheartedly agree with what I see as Wisdom with Regards to 'Faith' rather than 'Religion', and with regards to Living in Christ.

Can I ask you your opinion on the following. I am a non-denominational christian. I have found 'religion' to be a huge barrier to faith. Like you mentioned earlier about divisions and squabbling, of which I have been guilty myself. Do you, as a catholic, think 'Gods church' is in the hearts of the faithful or in the walls of Roman Catholocism?

santing

sorella wrote: »

This is a concern of course.

And a very real one.
...
Read something last night Of how God forgave Lucifer.

" Do you think Prince Lucifer is not forgiven? He was forgiven in the very moment of his rebellion."

I don't think Lucifer is forgiven, or will be forgiven. Hell is prepared for him. The RC Catechism says:

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."

santing

kelly1 wrote: »

A church, I think, should inspire a sense of the majesty of God.

Noel,

The Church is about the people (says the catechism) and not the building (adds the evangelical christian!). So it is the people, their order, reference and fellowship that should inspire a sense of God.

sorella

I have been "excommunicated" from many forums for speaking thus.....

One of the first people I met in Ireland, who had more faith than most have met, used to say when troubles arose re th Church "too much religion: and I would add, "and not enough faith." She attended mass but rarely.

Do you see the two alternatives you give as necessarily and totally mutually exclusive?

They need not be.

My life has always been blessed with dear ones of every tradition whose faith was a shining light so that their "denominational affiliation" ( dreadful phrase) mattered nothing.

Still is. Blessed I mean.

and with those dear ones, there is never any talk of doctrine or denom or any of the things that cause strife.
Simply of Jesus and His love and of the work to serve Him and His needy ones.

It is only when these other elements are raised that the divisions happen.

Of course Jesus is in the heart of His people; if they allow Him in.

If you find Jesus where you are, then that is where He wants you to be.

God does not make clones.

Not sure if that answers your question; my intuition is that you already know the amswer anyway.

JimiTime wrote: »

I must) say, I've enjoyed your conversation with MichaelG and wholeheartedly agree with what I see as Wisdom with Regards to 'Faith' rather than 'Religion', and with regards to Living in Christ.

Can I ask you your opinion on the following. I am a non-denominational christian. I have found 'religion' to be a huge barrier to faith. Like you mentioned earlier about divisions and squabbling, of which I have been guilty myself. Do you, as a catholic, think 'Gods church' is in the hearts of the faithful or in the walls of Roman Catholocism?

sorella

what I wrote was written by a senior prince of the Church.

There are always going to be contradictions are there not for our human wisdom is limited.

That part went on to say that after all Lucifer chose to be Prince of Hell by his rebellion.

Is he not thus to be pitied?

Please don't ask me for chapter and verse, but there is a section of the catechism on suicide that contradicts this you have quoted.

There are many such anomalies are there not?

Is there truly anyone who is beyond the mercy of God?

surely let us hope not for our own sakes.

Is He not all -loving, as any parent is?

Do we mere humans not forgive our children before they ask?

The point anyway of what i wrote is our need to forgive the injuries done to us.

As Jesus bids us time and again; and as He forgave those who killed Him; as He forgives us when we torture Him .



Quote:
Originally Posted by sorella
This is a concern of course.

And a very real one.
...
Read something last night Of how God forgave Lucifer.

" Do you think Prince Lucifer is not forgiven? He was forgiven in the very moment of his rebellion."

I don't think Lucifer is forgiven, or will be forgiven. Hell is prepared for him. The RC Catechism says:
Quote:
393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."

sorella

Is it not God Himself Who inspires us with the awareness of Him?

Do we sometimes not forget that? and try too hard to create that awareness then?

Pigeon holing so He has no chance to take us by surprise and awe? That sudden holiness and stillness....

santing wrote: »

Noel,

The Church is about the people (says the catechism) and not the building (adds the evangelical christian!). So it is the people, their order, reference and fellowship that should inspire a sense of God.

LordSutch

I happen to think the Christianity Forum on 'Boards.ie' is sufficient, I cant see a reason for a seperate 'Roman Catholic' Board site . . .

By the way, and just to be really pedantic - I am also a Catholic - but I am not a "Roman Catholic" . . . .

sorella

Many US forums censure the use of "Roman" these days.

Camelot wrote: »

I happen to think the Christianity Forum on 'Boards.ie' is sufficient, I cant see a reason for a seperate 'Roman Catholic' Board site . . .

By the way, and just to be really pedantic - I am also a Catholic - but I am not a "Roman Catholic" . . . .

santing

sorella wrote: »

What I wrote was written by a senior prince of the Church.

I didn't know the RC had princes! But it doesn't matter to me whoever says so ... it is contradicting the "official" teaching of RC.

sorella wrote: »

There are always going to be contradictions are there not for our human wisdom is limited.

That's not what the RC says: it is "a sure and authentic reference text" published "by virtue of my Apostolic Authority"

....

sorella wrote: »

Please don't ask me for chapter and verse, but there is a section of the catechism on suicide that contradicts this you have quoted.
There are many such anomalies are there not?

I found the reference for you it is http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

Thanks for that - it was completely new to me, and I utterly abhor it. There is no repentance after death, no second changes. We are Christians, not Hindus.

sorella wrote: »

Is there truly anyone who is beyond the mercy of God?

surely let us hope not for our own sakes.

Is He not all -loving, as any parent is?

Do we mere humans not forgive our children before they ask?

The point anyway of what i wrote is our need to forgive the injuries done to us.

As Jesus bids us time and again; and as He forgave those who killed Him; as He forgives us when we torture Him .

You mean to say that God will forgive and save us no matter what we do?