Heaven/Hell/Purgatory

JACK BE NIMBLE

hey all, just like to throw something at you that i cant help wondering about -
Say you die and have lived your live as best you can accoding to jesus' teachings and are then lucky enough to be desiginated a place in heaven.
Then one of you family members dies who has murdered or done some other extremely unchristian act and being totally unremorseful for what he/she has done.
How could you, being in heaven be happy knowing that this family member is condemned to Hell, surely this is for lack of a better word, "ironic" as heaven would not be heaven, ie paradise, to you knowing taht your family member is "down there" being tormented forever!
Any thoughts?

8kvscdpglqnyr4

JACK BE NIMBLE wrote: »

Then one of you family members dies who has murdered or done some other extremely unchristian act and being totally unremorseful for what he/she has done.

You don't have to do something drastic like murder someone Jack.

Bible Mark 3:28-29 wrote:

Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin

Bible John 3:36 wrote:

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of god rests upon him.

If I believed in heaven and only the righteous gained entry, I can't imagine a worse place to spend eternity. Lots of my friends wouldn't be there and some family members ... how sad!

How do Christians feel about the thoughts of never seeing a loved one again? Or is heaven to wonderful a place that you just won't feel and sadness?

Zombrex

JACK BE NIMBLE wrote: »

Any thoughts?

Very good question.

I suppose God forces you to be happy.

(I'm an atheist btw, so I would be interested to hear what the Christians say. I imagine it would be along the lines of they understand why the person cannot be in heaven so it wouldn't make them unhappy ... or something. Which is a little unconvincing TBH)

Hivemind187

I can imagine a lot of uppitty dead folk wrecking the Holy-Ear-Hole about why their missus is in Hell smoldering when they are upstairs strumming a harp.

Surely, the concept of heaven being the reward would require God to forgive the sinner and return them to your world (insert universe/dimension/reality as appropriate)? Forcing you to be happy seems a little ...

... on the other hand it fits in nicely with the "do as I say or I'll smite you" attitude.

JACK BE NIMBLE

Seriously though, i asked a priest the same question and he didn't know where to look, i ended up feeling sorry for him.
Divil a bit posted: "You don't have to do something drastic like murder someone Jack.", can you elaborate please?

Zombrex

JACK BE NIMBLE wrote: »

Seriously though, i asked a priest the same question and he didn't know where to look, i ended up feeling sorry for him.
Divil a bit posted: "You don't have to do something drastic like murder someone Jack.", can you elaborate please?

What he means is that perfectly good decent people end up in hell for simply not believing in the religion.

JACK BE NIMBLE

Cheers WickNight,
I guess we are all looking for answers, been asking this question for some time now without even a relatively plausible type answer, tis like chasing your tail

JimiTime

JACK BE NIMBLE wrote: »

Cheers WickNight,
I guess we are all looking for answers, been asking this question for some time now without even a relatively plausible type answer, tis like chasing your tail

You haven't got an answer because there is no definitive answer. I am a Christian, God has promised us 'exquisite delight'. Therefore, i am not anxious of such questions, for my Faith in God tells me, that whatever happens, all will be great, and all judgements just. If you doubt this, then you must address your faith IMO.

Zombrex

JACK BE NIMBLE wrote: »

Cheers WickNight,
I guess we are all looking for answers, been asking this question for some time now without even a relatively plausible type answer, tis like chasing your tail

The answer is don't ask the question

kelly1

JACK BE NIMBLE wrote: »

hey all, just like to throw something at you that i cant help wondering about -
Say you die and have lived your live as best you can accoding to jesus' teachings and are then lucky enough to be desiginated a place in heaven.
Then one of you family members dies who has murdered or done some other extremely unchristian act and being totally unremorseful for what he/she has done.
How could you, being in heaven be happy knowing that this family member is condemned to Hell, surely this is for lack of a better word, "ironic" as heaven would not be heaven, ie paradise, to you knowing taht your family member is "down there" being tormented forever!
Any thoughts?

Hello, I'll have a go at answering this.

Those who go to Hell go there because they rejected God's grace. Life in Heaven is only possible if we die with sanctifying grace in our souls. Likewise we can't exist under-water without breating apparatus. A soul without grace is effectively dead and cannot have any love (charity) for God. And since we can only be united with God through love, we cannot be united with Him if our soul has no love of God.

We were created in order to be ultimately joined with God in Heaven.
When we get to Heaven God's laws will make perfect sense to us. We will clearly see how beautiful a soul filled with God's grace is and how heinous a crime it is to reject His grace. In Heaven, our wills will be in perfect harmony with God's will and so we would be entirely in agreement with God if one of our relatives went to Hell. Hell would be the only possible choice for a soul dead in sin.

St. Catherines treatise on Purgatory makes for very interesting reading and gives some idea of just how pure a soul must be to enter Heaven.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CATPUR.TXT

God bless,
Noel.

BrianCalgary

Now that the trollop with the atheists has been given, here is a Chriatian answer.

My family and loved ones have made a decision to deny Christ and God. They know the consequences, am I sad about it? Yes.

Is there anything I can do about it? No.

Wicknight isn't going to change, he despises God, he has decided that an eternity without God is what he wants.

He is getting exactly his hearts desire. He has been warned about that choice.

When I get to Heaven I will be thrilled to see the people that are there. I will rejoice with them and hang out for eternity with them and God. Play football to my hearts content. Swim, ski and play hockey on smooth black ice.

But how can I moan about the fact that friends are in Hell, when they in fact chose to go there?

djpbarry

BrianCalgary wrote: »

My family and loved ones have made a decision to deny Christ and God. They know the consequences, am I sad about it? Yes.

Is there anything I can do about it? No.

Wicknight isn't going to change, he despises God, he has decided that an eternity without God is what he wants.

He is getting exactly his hearts desire. He has been warned about that choice.

When I get to Heaven I will be thrilled to see the people that are there. I will rejoice with them and hang out for eternity with them and God. Play football to my hearts content. Swim, ski and play hockey on smooth black ice.

But how can I moan about the fact that friends are in Hell, when they in fact chose to go there?

Forgive me for saying so, but that is incredibly selfish. How can you possibly say that once you get to Heaven, you don't care about anyone else, no matter how close you are to them?

BrianCalgary

djpbarry wrote: »

Forgive me for saying so, but that is incredibly selfish. How can you possibly say that once you get to Heaven, you don't care about anyone else, no matter how close you are to them?

It isn't that I don't care, nor did I say that, please do not put words into my mouth.

What I tried to say was that there was nothing I could do about it, and that friends are in Hell by choice.

I am saddened by that, yet fully aware that here and now there is only so much I can do and that when in Heaven there is nothing that I can do.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I am saddened by that, yet fully aware that here and now there is only so much I can do and that when in Heaven there is nothing that I can do.

So just to be clear.

In heaven you will be, or can be, saddened by that fact.

If that is the case then there isn't an issue, at least as far as your understand goes, as Jack's original assumption was that heaven is a place of perfect paradise and happiness, where someone would not, by definition, be sad in anyway.

If that isn't the case, if someone can still remain sad about things in heaven, then this isn't an issue in the first place.

JACK BE NIMBLE

Noel/Kelly1, thanks for your go at giving an answer - i'd like to state that i am a christian, but just like many others i'm trying to make clear as best as is humanly possible in my mind about the catholic belief/interpretation of Gods word. Do you seriously belief this to be true,"In Heaven, our wills will be in perfect harmony with God's will and so we would be entirely in agreement with God if one of our relatives went to Hell. Hell would be the only possible choice for a soul dead in sin." think about it - i assume you are a christian/decent person, you try to treat and understand people as best you can and hope its the same vice-versa, how can you just decide all of a sudden to basically say F**k this family member or friend he got what he deserves, ie going to hell. Its contradtictory to the max and the very essence of unchristian/inhumane.

JoeB-

Great Question OP, I have asked that same question of religious people and family members I know... no answers forthcoming so far.

I was told as a child that to miss Mass on Easter Sunday was a mortal sin which couldn't be atoned for... I remember when I missed my first... I thought 'Well, that can't be attoned for and so now I am DEFINITELY going to hell'. People who commit mortal sins don't go to Purgatory, they go straight to hell.



Quote in relation to BC's friends / family ending up in hell.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

What I tried to say was that there was nothing I could do about it, and that friends are in Hell by choice.

I am saddened by that, yet fully aware that here and now there is only so much I can do and that when in Heaven there is nothing that I can do.

Clearly you could pray that God would provide some real and tangible evidence of his existence to your unbelieving friends. I don't believe your friends have 'chosen' Hell, most likely they don't believe in heaven or hell and so have simply chosen disbelief, they haven't actively chosen hell. If your friends had proof they'd be saved. Such an easy thing for God to do and yet he doesn't....

If only your God would demonstrate his existence equally to all, not simply to a chosen few 2,000 years ago in a backward, uneducated and myth filled country. Apparently when Jesus rose from the dead there were two angels who stood by the tomb, why didn't God let them remain there so that I today could go there and verify the story for myself? Why is the age of miracles gone?

Was doubting thomas considered a lesser man because of doubt?, No, it seems Jesus allowed him to have 'more' proof so he could be sure.. why doesn't Jesus / God extend us all the same courtesy? After all I am only acting on my rationality which is God given apparently and yet I am to be punished for it.

When in heaven you can do even more, you won't have to pray, you can ask God directly and, if heaven is perfect, he won't be so rude as to ignore you, then you'll have your answer.



Heaven presents many paradoxes, it is as illogical as square circles and married bathelors.


edited to add.
In fact, when in heaven you can lobby God to change his policy of secrecy and belief without proof, you can explain how the human mind works, how many humans refuse to believe in what we call 'sky fairies' and that if he really wants us to be saved he should re examine his policies. You can ask him to re-evaluate the crimes of the billions in hell, and ask him to display the forgiveness and understanding which his son said was a policy of his.
Unless of course the vast majority are already in heaven in which case you can lobby him to ensure that his representatives on Earth get it right, that they stop saying that mortal sins are everywhere, that they stop engaging in paedophilic behaviour and covering it up (because other humans can't trust people who engage in these activites and then what hope have they?), and that the scripture 'many are called but few are chosen' is updated...

djpbarry

JoeBallantine wrote: »

After all I am only acting on my rationality which is God given apparently and yet I am to be punished for it.

Very good point. If we are not acting as God wishes us to act then there is obviously a design flaw!

kelly1

JACK BE NIMBLE wrote: »

Noel/Kelly1, thanks for your go at giving an answer - i'd like to state that i am a christian, but just like many others i'm trying to make clear as best as is humanly possible in my mind about the catholic belief/interpretation of Gods word. Do you seriously belief this to be true,"In Heaven, our wills will be in perfect harmony with God's will and so we would be entirely in agreement with God if one of our relatives went to Hell. Hell would be the only possible choice for a soul dead in sin." think about it - i assume you are a christian/decent person, you try to treat and understand people as best you can and hope its the same vice-versa, how can you just decide all of a sudden to basically say F**k this family member or friend he got what he deserves, ie going to hell. Its contradtictory to the max and the very essence of unchristian/inhumane.

I understand where you're coming from but I'm trying to see it from God's point of view - a bit impossible I know!

I often pray for the conversion of sinners that they may be spared from Hell. Any charitable person would do this.

The problem is that while on earth, we are afflicted with original sin which dims our moral intelligence and makes us prone to sin. We are far too comfortable with and attached to sin. Even the smallest sin is abhorrent to God because He is so pure and Holy. we just don't see how ugly sin is and how insulting it is to God. When we get to Heaven we will see God in all His glory and realize how profoundly good, just, merciful and holy He is.

When we baptized we are made perfectly pure in the sight of God because all sin is erased and no debt of sin remains to be paid. So if we died straight after baptism we would go straight to Heaven. According to one theologian I read, what happens in baptism (and the sacrament of penance for those in mortal sin) is far greater than the act of creation of the entire universe. The world is only material but a soul in the state of grace is like God because of the grace which God freely gives it and because of this grace, union with God becomes possible. This is not because of an merit on our part, it is only given to us because of God's goodness and mercy. When we sin, we reject this incredibly precious gift from God and insult His goodness, generosity and holiness. If our sin is mortal, our soul becomes effectively dead through our own choice. Mortal sin by definition must involve grave sin and be deliberation to commit the sin. So by definition, our rejection of God must therefore be deliberate. God doesn't violate our free will and respects our choice to reject Him.

When we die our will becomes fixed either in loving God and repenting of our sins or despising God and being too proud to seek forgiveness. There's no second chance to change your mind after you die.

Those of us who make it to Heaven will share intimately in the life of God being totally united with Him. We will perfectly understand the wisdom of sending people to Hell because God is a just and perfect judge. Here on earth, we just don't see the how abominable sin is. We judge sin by our own standards which are very low compared with God's.

So I don't know really whether we will feel sadness for those in Hell but I suspect we won't because if there were something wrong with sending people to Hell, God wouldn't do it in the first place. There is absolutely no compatibility between God and a soul (after death) in a state of mortal sin.

I think your question basically stems from a limited human understanding of sin which is very, very different from God's understanding.

Is this any clearer at all? It's a bit repetitive I know.

God bless,
Noel.

kelly1

JoeBallantine wrote: »

I was told as a child that to miss Mass on Easter Sunday was a mortal sin which couldn't be atoned for... I remember when I missed my first... I thought 'Well, that can't be attoned for and so now I am DEFINITELY going to hell'. People who commit mortal sins don't go to Purgatory, they go straight to hell.

Yes, missing Mass deliberately is a mortal sin but all mortal sins can be forgiven except dying impenitent. Whoever told you this is seriously misinformed!

JoeBallantine wrote: »

Clearly you could pray that God would provide some real and tangible evidence of his existence to your unbelieving friends. I don't believe your friends have 'chosen' Hell, most likely they don't believe in heaven or hell and so have simply chosen disbelief, they haven't actively chosen hell. If your friends had proof they'd be saved. Such an easy thing for God to do and yet he doesn't....

I don't know why God requires so much faith of us but I presume the reward would be greater than if we didn't need faith.

John 20:28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. 29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.

JoeBallantine wrote: »

Was doubting thomas considered a lesser man because of doubt?, No, it seems Jesus allowed him to have 'more' proof so he could be sure.. why doesn't Jesus / God extend us all the same courtesy?

Thomas showed a lack of faith and trust in God so I presume Jesus frowned a little on this.

Not wanting to sound presumptuous Joe, but could I ask you what effort you've made to find God? There is a well worn path to God that many saints have shown us which essentially involves leaving abandoning our own will in favour of God's. You can be sure that if you sincerly try to do God will (love God and neighbour as He wants you to), he will lead you to greater and greater holiness and His presence in your life will become more apparent.

Unfortunately many of us abandon this path as soon as temptations and difficulties are encountered. cf the parable of the sower.

God bless,
Noel.

Run_to_da_hills

Seven members of my family and almost all my relations are currently hell bound because they reject Jesus Christ as their saviour or put their trust in other man made religions. None of them will be in purgatory simply because it dose not exist. You dont have to murder to end up in hell, Just reject Christ as your saviour. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1vs8)

djpbarry

kelly1 wrote: »

I often pray for the conversion of sinners that they may be spared from Hell. Any charitable person would do this.

Awwww!

kelly1 wrote: »

When we get to Heaven we will see God in all His glory and realize how profoundly good, just, merciful and holy He is.

There's a whole load of assumptions in there.

kelly1 wrote: »

When we baptized we are made perfectly pure in the sight of God because all sin is erased and no debt of sin remains to be paid.

So an un-baptised baby is sinful, even though it has no concept of sin? That is totally illogical.

kelly1 wrote: »

So if we died straight after baptism we would go straight to Heaven.

And if you died straight before baptism, you would go straight to Hell for the horribly sinful life you have lead?

kelly1 wrote: »

We will perfectly understand the wisdom of sending people to Hell because God is a just and perfect judge.

In other words, you will be brainwashed?

kelly1 wrote: »

So I don't know really whether we will feel sadness for those in Hell but I suspect we won't because if there were something wrong with sending people to Hell, God wouldn't do it in the first place.

You don't think there is anything wrong with sending someone to Hell?

kelly1 wrote: »

I think your question basically stems from a limited human understanding of sin which is very, very different from God's understanding.

And you possess God's understanding of sin?

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't know why God requires so much faith of us but I presume the reward would be greater than if we didn't need faith.

So, you know that God's understanding of sin is very different to ours, and you know that we should abide by his understanding, but you don't know why?

kelly1 wrote: »

There is a well worn path to God that many saints have shown us which essentially involves leaving abandoning our own will in favour of God's.

If you abandon your will, then what is the point in living?

kelly1 wrote: »

You can be sure that if you sincerly try to do God will (love God and neighbour as He wants you to), he will lead you to greater and greater holiness and His presence in your life will become more apparent.

I don't think being Christian is a necessary prerequisite to leading a good life. I like to think of myself as a good person, but I haven't seen any sign of any god.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Seven members of my family and almost all my relations are currently hell bound because they reject Jesus Christ as their saviour or put their trust in other man made religions.

Could you forward me their contact details please? I'd like to have as many allies as possible when I make it to Hell .

Run_to_da_hills

djpbarry wrote: »

Could you forward me their contact details please? I'd like to have as many allies as possible when I make it to Hell .

You will be meeting many there, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat", Matthew 7:13

Agent J

I didnt realise that people could second guess the Christian God and could tell what memembers of their own family are on the way to Hell.

That almost sounds prideful doesnt it?

BrianCalgary

Agent J wrote: »

I didnt realise that people could second guess the Christian God and could tell what memembers of their own family are on the way to Hell.

That almost sounds prideful doesnt it?

Well agentj, what an absolutely stupid statement.

If my uncle says, 'there is no god, and when I die it is just to dirt.', and no amount of talking and showing him evidence gets anywhere, the guess what?

Can you guess?

just in case you missed it, he is going to Hell. Because he has rejected the God of the universe and done so willingly.

God has shown us who He is and has come down from Heaven and offered Himself as the propitiation for our sins. He has risen from the dead.

Ohhh, but of course, you don't think that theres enough evidence for this so you'll mock God, and His people and then whine that you can't go to Heaven and how unfair God is?


:rolleyes:

Splendour

Hi Jack Be Nimble,

In the beginning (Genesis) Paradise was perfect, but as we know man messed it up and Paradise fell. God has promised us that at Jesus second coming Paradise will be regained. As it was in the beginning, so it shall be ie; perfect!
Now if the saints in Heaven were aware that there were relatives/friends in eternal torment in hell, it wouldn't be paradise/perfect.
This is something that is of huge concern to me because I have lots of relatives and friends who aren't believers, not to mention my children. I pray for them every day and leave them in God's hands' though.


It's interesting to read in Luke that the people in hell can see the people in Heaven but not vice versa...

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Interesting, but not too appealing...

Nerin

i have no fears of going to hell for not believing in the christian god.
if it turns out when i die and the christians were right,im sure by logic god wont mind,i base this theory on the grounds that a god would be so ascended and clearminded that the fact i led a good life, and followed a different spiritual path that didnt hurt anyone ,
im sure he'd say come on into heaven.

then again if you want to believe your god would be so insecure that people not believing in him warrants eternal punishment,thats your choice,im friends with many level christians who think otherwise.

Zombrex

Splendour wrote: »

Hi Jack Be Nimble,

In the beginning (Genesis) Paradise was perfect, but as we know man messed it up and Paradise fell.

"Man" didn't mess it up Splendour, a man messed it up. A single man. And paradise only fell because God decided that it should fall as punishment. He condemned the entire human race to punish a single man, Adam.

It really puzzles me this group blame concept you guys love so much. I don't get blamed for what Hitler did, I don't get blamed for what Pol Pot did, despite them also being men. "Mankind" isn't blamed for the actions of single individuals, except bizarrely when it comes to Adam.

Why exactly do Christians expect me to be blamed for what Adam did, one man "born" 6,000 years before I was.

djpbarry

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Ohhh, but of course, you don't think that theres enough evidence for this so you'll mock God, and His people and then whine that you can't go to Heaven and how unfair God is?

I don't think anyone is "whining" about not going to Heaven, just trying to understand the logic behind the selection process.

robindch

Brian wrote:

Ohhh, but of course, you don't think that theres enough evidence for this so you'll mock God, and His people and then whine that you can't go to Heaven and how unfair God is?

I think you're really missing the point here by many miles.

None of us are rejecting god per se, but instead rejecting YOUR beliefs about god in much the same way that you reject the findings of modern biology.

Hence, you can see why we might think that one poster claiming that his deity is going to send another poster to burn in hell for all eternity, is delivering a message of the most monstrous arrogance.

Splendour

Wicknight wrote: »

"Why exactly do Christians expect me to be blamed for what Adam did, one man "born" 6,000 years before I was.

6,ooo years before you were born eh?
Glad to see you coming round to the Christian way of thinking...

Zombrex

Splendour wrote: »

6,ooo years before you were born eh?
Glad to see you coming round to the Christian way of thinking...

Well its your religion, you think I should believe this particular way of viewing the universe

kelly1

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't think anyone is "whining" about not going to Heaven, just trying to understand the logic behind the selection process.

How can a person remain stubbornly attached to sin and expect to get into Heaven? You might as well say I want to drive my car at 100mph regardless of the consequences.

djpbarry

kelly1 wrote: »

How can a person remain stubbornly attached to sin and expect to get into Heaven? You might as well say I want to drive my car at 100mph regardless of the consequences.

Not sure about that analogy - I am not endangering anyone's life by not subscribing to Christianity.

And how exactly am I "stubbornly attached to sin", bearing in mind that my definition of sin is likely to be different to yours? But then, you don't know what god's definition of sin is, so that doesn't really matter seeing as he's the one who is ultimately going to judge us (apparently), which doesn’t really make sense actually.

Let’s assume for a second that a god exists. Let’s also assume that she is perfect in every way. So, one day she decides to create humans. Seeing as god’s perfect, she could have chosen to make a carbon copy of herself, but she chose to create an infinitely inferior model. She also decides that when humans die, only those who have lead lives morally comparable to her own may enter Heaven. But, she also knows that this is totally impossible, given our infinitely inferior understanding of the universe. Consequently, all humans are damned to Hell.

JACK BE NIMBLE

Ok, it has turned into a very broad spectrumed question i initially posted by the looks of the responses, been doing a little bit of my own research and have come up with this, seems very compelling - http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm

kelly1

JACK BE NIMBLE wrote: »

Ok, it has turned into a very broad spectrumed question i initially posted by the looks of the responses, been doing a little bit of my own research and have come up with this, seems very compelling - http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm

I sincerely hope you're not serious but I presume not with the smiley faces?

If you doubt the existence of Hell, you doubt Christ.

JACK BE NIMBLE

Kelly1, I am extremely serious, did you read it?
I would be very interested to know your thoughts on this

stevejazzx

kelly1 wrote: »

I sincerely hope you're not serious but I presume not with the smiley faces?

If you doubt the existence of Hell, you doubt Christ.

That's scare tactics surely? All you want to achieve is belief thorugh fear. Do you think that's logical and fairminded of you? BELIEVE IN HELL..BE AFRAID..why? Why the necessity for such fear, what kind of a life is that. Do you go around every day fearing that this deity is watching all your actions and constantly judging you? Again what kind of life is that? You know regardless of spirituality and the afterlife and your own personal beliefs, living this life is what you should be doing. Be kind and moral, there's no need for fear and there's certainly no need to project fear onto other people.
And what about the much disputed limbo? If I doubt that do I doubt Christ too?

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

"Man" didn't mess it up Splendour, a man messed it up. A single man. And paradise only fell because God decided that it should fall as punishment. He condemned the entire human race to punish a single man, Adam.

It really puzzles me this group blame concept you guys love so much. I don't get blamed for what Hitler did, I don't get blamed for what Pol Pot did, despite them also being men. "Mankind" isn't blamed for the actions of single individuals, except bizarrely when it comes to Adam.

Why exactly do Christians expect me to be blamed for what Adam did, one man "born" 6,000 years before I was.

You are not being blamed for what Adam did. You are being held responsible for you rown actions and inactions.

You are the one rejecting God. Adam had his opportunity to make his peace with God, as do you.

Adam made a covenenat with God.

God has made a deal with you as well. You are choosing not to sign it.

djpbarry

BrianCalgary wrote: »

God has made a deal with you as well. You are choosing not to sign it.

I am not aware of any deal I have made with God. Seeing as any deal between God and myself has been drawn up by God without my knowledge, the deal does not meet the requirements of common law and is therefore unenforceable.

JACK BE NIMBLE

Kelly 1, by the way i dont doubt Christ, just man and his own agendas.
Christ went through his life loving and helping all he could, he knowingly as a human, with human emotions, accepted a horrific death from people whom he knew were murderers, cheaters, haters, etc.
He must have been frightened out of his wits, yes he knew he would have everlasting life but he still had to endure the extraordinary pain for us who by the looks of things wouldnt have made a piss on him if he were on fire(excuse the expression). This all adds up to my inability to understand how Jesus in the same token would be happy in the knowledge that these same said people would be happy to see some of us burn in torment forever!

Zombrex

djpbarry wrote: »

I am not aware of any deal I have made with God. Seeing as any deal between God and myself has been drawn up by God without my knowledge, the deal does not meet the requirements of common law and is therefore unenforceable.

True .. there isn't exactly a negotiation period.

Its more "Do this or else .." type of deal ... think the Mafia had a name for those types of deals ...

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

You are not being blamed for what Adam did. You are being held responsible for you rown actions and inactions.

I am being blamed for what Adam did because God cast all of humanity into this sinful imperfect world as a punishment of what Adam did. In fact that world/universe was created specifically to hold humanity as punishment for Adam.

Otherwise we would all still be in paradise and probably not having this conversation.

I am born with sin because God wanted to punish Adam for something Adam did. And for some reason I have to be held responsible for that fact.

Nerin

True .. there isn't exactly a negotiation period.

Its more "Do this or else .." type of deal ... think the Mafia had a name for those types of deals ..

as i stated,that doesnt sound like a logical god.
do this or else???thats really mature of god.
if i was god id be extremely insulted people are following me and describing me like this

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote: »

I think you're really missing the point here by many miles.

None of us are rejecting god per se, but instead rejecting YOUR beliefs about god in much the same way that you reject the findings of modern biology.

Hence, you can see why we might think that one poster claiming that his deity is going to send another poster to burn in hell for all eternity, is delivering a message of the most monstrous arrogance.

The understanding I have of God comes to us via His communications through teh Bible.

We have had this conversation before, many times.

If you accept God's deal, you end up serving Him in this life and being in communion with Him for eternity. That communion with Him happens in a plce called Heaven.

If you reject God's deal and spend your life serving yourself, or anyone else, you get an deternity without God (which many posters here have freely said that it is their will) and that place is called Hell and is described in the pages of teh Bible.

I fail to see arrogance.

djpbarry

BrianCalgary wrote: »

If you accept God's deal, you end up serving Him in this life and being in communion with Him for eternity. That communion with Him happens in a plce called Heaven.

If you reject God's deal and spend your life serving yourself, or anyone else, you get an deternity without God (which many posters here have freely said that it is their will) and that place is called Hell and is described in the pages of teh Bible.

What is this "deal" you are referring to?

Ok, I'm agnostic. Let's say I spend my entire life curing disease and as a result millions are saved. Let's say my brother devotes his life to prayer, preaching and bible-study, or whatever, which helps no-one. Are you saying that he is going to get into Heaven because he has devoted his life to God, but I'm going to go to Hell because I rejected him? Where is the logic in that? That tells me that God is an extremely egotistical being.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I fail to see arrogance.

I think from Robin's point of view the arrogance comes from the idea that you know all this

How certain are you that this is actually the way it works?

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

I think from Robin's point of view the arrogance comes from the idea that you know all this

How certain are you that this is actually the way it works?

Because I am certain that the Bible is God's communication with us, the owners manual for humanity.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Because I am certain that the Bible is God's communication with us, the owners manual for humanity.

How certain are you?

Say God exists but the Bible isn't anything to do with him (the real God). How certain are you that this is not the case

BTW I don't necessarly agree with Robin that you are arrogant, I'm simply explaining the issue. Rejecting God and rejecting the Christian interpretation of how God wants us to be are not actually the same things.

djpbarry

BrianCalgary wrote: »

You are not being blamed for what Adam did. You are being held responsible for you rown actions and inactions.

But is the concept of original sin not derived from Adam's actions? If so, then the Christian God is holding me responsible for his actions.

Latchy

Wonder is there a points system for getting into Heaven ,like on a scale system of 100, anything below 78 and your out ???

PDN

latchyco wrote: »

Wonder is there a points system for getting into Heaven ,like on a scale system of 100, anything below 78 and your out ???

Actually, there is. Anything under 100 means you're out. That means just one sin in an entire lifetime means you miss the pass mark.

It's a pretty stiff task, I know that I've already failed by a long way. In fact there's only ever been one guy in the history of the human race who made the pass mark.

The good news is that the one guy who did make the pass mark also worked out a way for the rest of us to get in on his guest pass. The bad news is that a lot of people would rather reject his kind offer and instead spend their time whining about how unfair the whole process is.

It takes all sorts.