If you seen for yourself would you believe?

JimiTime

Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. I.E. It definately wasn't a tick etc. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

joe_chicken

JimiTime wrote: »

Assuming that it was genuine

Yes.

But we all know what happens when we assume.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

Assuming it was a genuine act of God, and that the God was actually the Christian God?

Nope, I would not "follow" (ie worship) him.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

why shouldn't we follow you? you're the one doing the miracles.

Scofflaw

JimiTime wrote: »

Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

Hmm. I'd need several other randomly chosen Christians to perform similar miracles, because otherwise I might as well just proclaim you as the next Messiah.

Assuming you could do that, then personally, no. If such powers were available through Christ, then the utter failure of Christ to do anything about the enormous misery found around the world and throughout history would argue that He was a deity at best negligent, at worst sadistic.

BTW, I think you should clarify that "assuming it was genuine" - presumably you mean it wasn't a trick or deception of any kind?

cordially,
Scofflaw

humanji

It would depend on whether it could be proven that you did these things and that it was the Holy Spirit working through you. Faith healers having been tricking people for years, so there would be a certain level of disbelief. If it was proven without a shadow of a doubt, I honestly don't know if I respect the Christian god enough to follow him.

Dave!

Hard to say... The God of the old testament doesn't seem like the most pleasant of chaps, and doesn't appear worthy of worship. But at the same time, if I knew that was the path to heaven and eternal salvation, I'd probably be on my knees every day (praying, of course).

Zombrex

DaveMcG wrote: »

But at the same time, if I knew that was the path to heaven and eternal salvation, I'd probably be on my knees every day (praying, of course).

Yes I may be born again, but I was wasn't
born again yesterday. I wanna get down
on my knees and start pleasing Jesus!
I wanna feel his salvation all over
my face!

Cartman - South Park - Christian Rock Hard

Beruthiel

JimiTime wrote: »

Assuming that it was genuine.

Assuming - I'd need 100% backed up, logical proof.

Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

Nope.
I'm not getting why you would think because you cured someone we should follow someone else.
I agree with Mordie, why wouldn't we follow you instead?
Do you wear sandles? Can I have one?

Dave!

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes I may be born again, but I was wasn't
born again yesterday. I wanna get down
on my knees and start pleasing Jesus!
I wanna feel his salvation all over
my face!

Cartman - South Park - Christian Rock Hard

LOL

made me laugh in the library, not good

Pompey Magnus

JimiTime wrote: »

Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

If you did those miracles then I would probably say no, they aren't convincing enough. However if I saw you make the Red Sea part and have a nice path from one shore to the other with walls of water on either side then I would be convinced that something was up.

stevejazzx

Silly nonsensical thread..this place is getting more and more like after hours...

handbag readied,

Steve

JimiTime

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

If you did those miracles then I would probably say no, they aren't convincing enough. However if I saw you make the Red Sea part and have a nice path from one shore to the other with walls of water on either side then I would be convinced that something was up.

Something was up? Ok, if seeing blind people see and lame people walk is not convincing enough. if I parted the red sea then?

And to those who say 'why wouldn't e just follow you'. Believe it or not, this happened to Paul in Greece. he performed signs and they start bowing down. He starting telling them no, it is not I who has this power it is my master. So i would merely be a vessel for the holy spirit, and would declare it so.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

So i would merely be a vessel for the holy spirit, and would declare it so.

Yes but I think the point is that you haven't demonstrated that. You have demonstrated that you can do these things, and you claim that God is doing them through you. Which is actually a different claim. You could be either wrong, or simply lying. What if Satan was doing them through you?

Dave!

stevejazzx wrote: »

Silly nonsensical thread..this place is getting more and more like after hours...

handbag readied,

Steve

Ahh no I like Jimi's threads... at least he's engaging with his heathenous counterparts unlike some of the other religious peeps, who daren't venture into these here parts. They're usually content to ward off attacks from ravenous secularists in their respective forums.

JimiTime

stevejazzx wrote: »

Silly nonsensical thread..this place is getting more and more like after hours...

handbag readied,

Steve

TBH, why would you post in it then? Other posters have merely exerted an opinion on it so why don't you either choose to or not? don't just throw stones at it The question arose in the Christianity forum, where certain folk were talking about lack of evidence for Jesus Christ. I decided to ask where the non-believers are (here), if they did see such evidence, would they follow Christ. Whats nonsensical about that?

djpbarry

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

However if I saw you make the Red Sea part and have a nice path from one shore to the other with walls of water on either side then I would be convinced that something was up.

Agreed. You could revolutionise international travel in a way that Michael O'Leary can only dream of.

Scofflaw

JimiTime wrote: »

Something was up? Ok, if seeing blind people see and lame people walk is not convincing enough. if I parted the red sea then?

And to those who say 'why wouldn't e just follow you'. Believe it or not, this happened to Paul in Greece. he performed signs and they start bowing down. He starting telling them no, it is not I who has this power it is my master. So i would merely be a vessel for the holy spirit, and would declare it so.

With Wicknight on this one - all you've demonstrated is that you can do miracles. You may believe that's the Holy Spirit working through you, but it's a huge assumption to accept that. As I say, I would need to see a sample of random Christians able to do it, and also know that they had received neither more nor less than standard Christian teaching.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dades

JimiTime wrote: »

Something was up? Ok, if seeing blind people see and lame people walk is not convincing enough.

I'd need something far more convincing than a trick that could be set up/faked by any decent street magician.

Extraordinary claims, etc. The Red Sea would be a good one. I mentioned before I'd be hard pushed not to believe there was some validity to a claim for God if all the planets were to suddenly align, and a voice announced to everyone on earth that god was here; kneel before him.

Pompey Magnus

JimiTime wrote: »

Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

Out of interest, is there anything that you could see/discover that would cause you to lose your faith in Yahweh?

JimiTime

Ok I've just set up a poll for this question, if anyone fancies having a go.

Also, just remember, the question is not just 'would you then believe', its would you actually follow him also. The latter being the more important question for me.

Also, mainly to Dades in response to the tricks thing. In case I didn't make it clear in my original post. It is genuine, no tricks etc, and you see its all genuine.

biko

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok I've just set up a poll for this question, if anyone fancies having a go.

Also, just remember, the question is not 'would you then believe', its would you actually follow him.

Also, mainly to Dades in response to the tricks thing. In case I didn't make it clear in my original post. It is genuine, no tricks etc, and you see its all genuine.

If you could perform magic it would still not convince me.

JimiTime performs actual magic is a long leap from God exists and created heaven and hell. Sure you could be an evil wizard for all I know.

Dades

JimiTime wrote: »

Also, mainly to Dades in response to the tricks thing. In case I didn't make it clear in my original post. It is genuine, no tricks etc, and you see its all genuine.

But how would a punter like me know it's genuine? You can't just say it is and leave it at that. To believe something as extraordinary as the Creator of Life, the Universe and Everything working magic through you, you would need to do something really, really impressive.

And I'd need a few questions answered about the state of the world before I'd follow the gourd, tbh.

Splendour

JimiTime wrote: »

Also, just remember, the question is not just 'would you then believe', its would you actually follow him also. The latter being the more important question for me.

Nice try JimiTime, but some things never change. After all as we we read in John 12,37:

37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him.

They were impressed with Jesus miracles, but not willing to believe. If one doesn't believe one cannot follow.
Sadly,man is the same now as he was then...

(Still,I'll be curious as to the outcome...)

Red Hand

JimiTime wrote: »

Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

You would be trying to convince me that it was God work his magic through you, but to me, you and your miracles could be due to any number of things; from pseudo-scientific behaviour like pyschokinesis right up to aliens abducting you and giving you some advanced technology to have such powers.

To paraphrase Arthur C Clarke, "Any well advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". So, maybe even scientists could have given you such a power. All of that would be speculation on my part.

Just because people see something amazing does not mean that they will "be silenced by the glory", or stop thinking critically.:)

JimiTime

Dades wrote: »

But how would a punter like me know it's genuine? You can't just say it is and leave it at that. To believe something as extraordinary as the Creator of Life, the Universe and Everything working magic through you, you would need to do something really, really impressive.

And I'd need a few questions answered about the state of the world before I'd follow the gourd, tbh.

i mean what was actually happening was genuine, i.e. it wasn't a trick. If for instance you came with me, or i came with you. You brought me some random, lame person etc. And through my calling in Jesus' name they were healed right in front of you. So imagine, you are in no doubt that these people are being miraculously healed. Would your doubt then turn to me lieing? You believing that I'm not doing this through holy spirit, but by other means? If I then convinced you, just imagine, that it was through the Holy Spirit, would you then follow Christ, or still reject him? Or would you need still to ask him some stuff before you followed?

JT

A few party tricks certainly wouldn't make me worship your god, no.

If I was going to worship any of them, yours would be way down on the list.

JT wrote:

Would your doubt then turn to me lieing? You believing that I'm not doing this through holy spirit, but by other means?

Well, maybe you're not really doing it through your god, and it's some other god or whatever doing it through you and you're just assuming it's yours.

Red Hand

Splendour wrote: »

Nice try JimiTime, but some things never change. After all as we we read in John 12,37:

37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him.

They were impressed with Jesus miracles, but not willing to believe. If one doesn't believe one cannot follow.
Sadly,man is the same now as he was then...

(Still,I'll be curious as to the outcome...)

Many Aztecs believed the first Conquistadors to be capable of magic and miracles...and yet they weren't. Cannons, muskets, horses-they were all just signs of mere technology.

Zombrex

Splendour wrote: »

Sadly,man is the same now as he was then...

Not gullible?

Hivemind187

To the OP

Not a hope. I'd have you dissected to figure out what part of you we could reproduce so that we could ALL perform such miracles.

Seriously though, I dont believe that a genuine miracle would make me join a religion. It would answer a few questions and certainly show that some of my previous assertions were in error, but as a catalyst for throwing my lot in with the religions ... no, still think I'd have to do things my own way.

The Chessplayer

I certainly would NOT follow Christ if his spelling and grammar was as atrocious as the poster's.

JimiTime

bluewolf wrote: »

A few party tricks certainly wouldn't make me worship your god, no.

Whens your next party bluewolf? read the flippin hypothetical question I posed. Making a blind man see and a paraplegic walk is hardly a party trick now is it. i asked you to assume it is genuine, I.E. you see its not a trick, in fact its your brother who you've known all your life, and has been blind since birth. he then see's. Would you say 'nice party trick'?

fair enough, you don't believe its the Holy Spirit, or you still don't follow Christ even if you do believe its Holy Spirit, but calling such a thing a party trick

stevejazzx

JimiTime wrote: »

TBH, why would you post in it then? Other posters have merely exerted an opinion on it so why don't you either choose to or not? don't just throw stones at it The question arose in the Christianity forum, where certain folk were talking about lack of evidence for Jesus Christ. I decided to ask where the non-believers are (here), if they did see such evidence, would they follow Christ. Whats nonsensical about that?

Look Scofflaw already answered this, someone turning up now and pulling a thousand fishes out of a bag won't make me a follower of Jesus Christ. It'd simply make me say what took you so long? If you were going to this at all - which by all acounts of God having infinite knowledge then he would've known in advance - why did you leave it until now? There's only one answer to that and it's the brilliant
'God works in mysterious ways' clause that the christians like to throw up every now and then.
Your proposition is deeply flawed, elementary and nonsensical. You seem to think that the only barrier between a believer and a non believer is lack of evidence in miracles. It's not, there are countless barriers between us including the actual religous organisation itself, a celestial north korea as Hitchens calls it. If he is real and all powerful then he is, by all accounts a dictator. Why would I want to worship him becasue he can do miralces? Why does he need worship if he so powerful, why request worship, why demand it? Is he an insecure all powerful being?
Being part of church and implementing it's philosophy into my life is not something I would consider, based on the fact that I disagree with how the church works and how it wants to control people and how they live.
Besides if somehow a miraculous entity pertaining exclusively to chirstianity was to make himself known to us wouldn't he interfering with our free wil and how we decide to have faith or not thereby rendering the central dogma of christianity pointless? You raised the question without considering the theological implications of the matter. I found that irritating becasue it showed that you have incomplete understanding of the very thing you are trying to address.

JimiTime

JimiTime wrote: »

Whens your next party bluewolf? read the flippin hypothetical question I posed. Making a blind man see and a paraplegic walk is hardly a party trick now is it. i asked you to assume it is genuine, I.E. you see its not a trick, in fact its your brother who you've known all your life, and has been blind since birth. he then see's. Would you say 'nice party trick'?

fair enough, you don't believe its the Holy Spirit, or you still don't follow Christ even if you do believe its Holy Spirit, but calling such a thing a party trick

What, you think an omnipotent god making a blind man see is some magnificent feat?

JimiTime

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I certainly would NOT follow Christ if his spelling and grammar was as atrocious as the poster's.

:rolleyes: theres always one.

Red Hand

JimiTime wrote: »

Whens your next party bluewolf? read the flippin hypothetical question I posed. Making a blind man see and a paraplegic walk is hardly a party trick now is it. i asked you to assume it is genuine, I.E. you see its not a trick, in fact its your brother who you've known all your life, and has been blind since birth. he then see's. Would you say 'nice party trick'?

To be fair, both examples you give could be within the reach of a highly advanced technological society. You could be a modern day Cortez and we the Aztecs.:)

JimiTime

bluewolf wrote: »

What, you think an omnipotent god making a blind man see is some magnificent feat?

Its certainly not 'a party trick', but i think you're just being pedantic.

Zombrex

stevejazzx wrote: »

a celestial north korea as Hitchens calls it.

LOL

Must remember that one

JimiTime

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

To be fair, both examples you give could be within the reach of a highly advanced technological society. You could be a modern day Cortez and we the Aztecs.:)

Ok, so you would still be a sceptic. fair enough.

Sangre

You'd need to do something really fantastic to make me believe, like make the Statute of Liberty disappear.

thefinalstage

Nanites will repair nearly any affliction. They are 20 or so years off though..

Red Hand

Sangre wrote: »

You'd need to do something really fantastic to make me believe, like make the Statute of Liberty disappear.

Make the Statue of Liberty do the Texas Two Step, you mean!:p

the_syco

JimiTime wrote: »

Making a blind man see and a paraplegic walk is hardly a party trick now is it. i asked you to assume it is genuine, I.E. you see its not a trick, in fact its your brother who you've known all your life, and has been blind since birth. he then see's. Would you say 'nice party trick'?

Actually, I'd wonder what sort of evil sick god made him blind in the first place, and then bring you to Area 51:D

Zombrex

the_syco wrote: »

Actually, I'd wonder what sort of evil sick god made him blind in the first place, and then bring you to Area 51:D

bring out the anal probe ...

anyway, there seems to be an interesting assumption that belief should automatically lead to worship. As steve says that isn't actually true, as this thread some what demonstrates.

I would wonder if the theists can actually understand that position, or will it be dismissed with a Bible quote.

JimiTime

stevejazzx wrote: »

Look Scofflaw already answered this, someone turning up now and pulling a thousand fishes out of a bag won't make me a follower of Jesus Christ. It'd simply make me say what took you so long? If you were going to this at all - which by all acounts of God having infinite knowledge then he would've known in advance - why did you leave it until now? There's only one answer to that and it's the brilliant
'God works in mysterious ways' clause that the christians like to throw up every now and then.
Your proposition is deeply flawed, elementary and nonsensical. You seem to think that the only barrier between a believer and a non believer is lack of evidence in miracles. It's not, there are countless barriers between us including the actual religous organisation itself, a celestial north korea as Hitchens calls it. If he is real and all powerful then he is, by all accounts a dicdator. Why would I want to worship him becasue he can do miralces? Why does he need worship if he so powerful, why request worship, why demand it? Is he an insecure all powerful being?
Being part of church and implementing it's philosophy into my life is not something I would consider, based on the fact that I disagree with how the church works and how it wants to control people and how they live.
Besides if somehow a miraculous entity pertaining exclusively to chirstianity was to make himself known to us wouldn't he interfering with our free wil and how we decide to have faith or not thereby rendering the central dogam of christianity pointless? You raised the question without considering the theological implications of the matter. I found that irritating becasue it showed that you have incomplete understanding of the very thing you are trying to address.

Phew. that was a bit angry. I take that as a no then?:) Just to let you know, i just asked a question. My hypothesis assumes nothing. It merely asks, if you saw signs of Christ, would you believe, in turn would you follow. I realise that there are those out there who are atheist etc for differing reasons. Contrary to what you assume, Scofflaws view that no matter what happened, he would not worship God prompted my question to the rest of the A&A forum. So 0/10 steve. But thanks for answering.

JimiTime

the_syco wrote: »

Actually, I'd wonder what sort of evil sick god made him blind in the first place, and then bring you to Area 51:D

Thats cool, that answers the question. You would be in the no camp.

Hivemind187

Wicknight wrote: »

bring out the anal probe ...

anyway, there seems to be an interesting assumption that belief should automatically lead to worship. As steve says that isn't actually true, as this thread some what demonstrates.

I would wonder if the theists can actually understand that position, or will it be dismissed with a Bible quote.

I think the problem is that for theists the two go hand in hand ... ommitting the anal probe.

It seems that belief is the reason why they should worship and that they should worship is not even a question. It doesnt appear to be backwards compatable either e.g. not worshipping but still believing - as if not worshipping somehow implies not believing.

... sorry I think my brain has melted from this one.

Dades

I think there is merit in the thread.

On the surface it seems that non-believers are stuck in their views, and will never recognise a god no matter what evidence is put in front of them.

But to paraphrase what stevejazzx so *ahem* excitedly put, there's more to disbelief than a simple lack of miracles. The whole notion of an overlord God demanding worship, is just so flawed as that it could only be a human projection.

Consequently even if it appeared some deity was manipulating things on earth there are many hard issues to be addressed about the way that god operates before people would consider kneeling before him.

JimiTime

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I think the problem is that for theists the two go hand in hand ... ommitting the anal probe.

It seems that belief is the reason why they should worship and that they should worship is not even a question. It doesnt appear to be backwards compatable either e.g. not worshipping but still believing - as if not worshipping somehow implies not believing.

... sorry I think my brain has melted from this one.

In all fairness guys, i think you're assuming too much. Why don't you pose it as a question in the Christianity forum and see if you can confirm your suspicion?

Asiaprod

Dades wrote: »

Consequently even if it appeared some deity was manipulating things on earth there are many hard issues to be addressed about the way that god operates before people would consider kneeling before him.

That would be a major issue for me too

Hivemind187

JimiTime wrote: »

In all fairness guys, i think you're assuming too much. Why don't you pose it as a question in the Christianity forum and see if you can confirm your suspicion?

I'm not assuming anything. Its an observation. Feel free to disagree.

As for the Christianty forum, I limit my posting in thee because I often seem to cause more harm than good.