Sound Engineer with very bad attitide

Jelly 292

Did a gig the other night in a popular venue in Dublin and the attitude of the engineer in there was the worst I have ever seen. The engineer belittled one band after another with unwarranted rudeness and complete disdain.

It started bad. All the bands were there at 6 for the sound check as was the engineer. We did not start to sound check until the promoter turned up and asked the engineer to get started, this was 7.45.
I was there at 5.30 so I waited till gone 8 and we did not get a sound check due to the engineer’s complete disinterest.
That’s nearly 3 hours of my time where I could have been somewhere more worthwhile.

This was actually the second gig I have done there in the last month or two with the same engineer each time. On both occasions I was taken aback by this person’s attitude to all the performers on the night.
Within a few minutes of each bands sound check the engineer was talking to each band like they were naughty 5 years olds and being a complete arsehole towards them.
I understand that engineers have to put up with a lot of cr@p from a lot of inexperienced/egotistical people on a nightly basis but on this occasion no one gave the engineer any grief what so ever.

Simply asking for a bit more level in a monitor would be replied to with 'you must be deaf if you cant here that' another was 'Do you want to come up here an do this?' when I had the cheek to ask for a little more level in my monitor again.

Another bassist just asked 'for a bit of everything in there monitor' and the reply was 'there’s no everything button' It decended into naked aggression from there.

When one member of the band had the gal to make a smart comment back after much goading from the engineer the promoter made the band apologies to the engineer, I mean what the fu$k??????!!!!

I cannot see how a great venue like this can have an engineer like this resident. It seems that the main function of the engineer was to antagonize each band to the degree where the night was sullied and each band was completely disheartened before they played.
As it went, we had a good gig and although I could not hear anything due to a terrible mix I felt the response from the crowed was vindication in front of this person in the sound box.

I’m well used the regular grumy, tired engineer who just wants to get done and go home, I can understand why they feel like this, but this was on a different level.
If you don’t like the job to this extent then leave!! In this small town you are bloody lucky to be making a few quid doing a job like this!

I don’t understand why this person does this job as they so clearly hate every band that steps on stage and makes it clear that that they think we are all a bunch of losers and beneath their contempt.

Sorry for the anger, I just had to get this of my chest as I feel none of the bands had any recourse to respond on the night. I shall be dreading playing the there in the future, which is a real pity

ferdi

sounds bad alright...you should really be saying this to the manager of the venue and the egineer himself

Savman

Name & shame?

mike65

I thought it was part of a sound engineers remit to be disdainful to musicians.

Mike.

Jelly 292

Would have loved to said something to someone but after one band was made to aploigise to this engineer I was just at a loss.
Its a great venue and of course the the promoter does not want to endanger his standing with it which I understand completly.
I felt there was no where to vent apart from boards, sorry if it comes across very negative.

Jelly 292

I could easily name and shame but you know the politics in Dublin, name and shame and kiss goodbye to more gigs from this venue/promoter:mad:

miju

aye go for it , not the engineer though just the venue. engineers can be narky bastads sometimes but still sounds like this one was bang out of order.

though going by the load in time i reckon i know where your on about which is strange if im right as the guys in there are sound (pardon the pun ) mofos in the many many gigs ive worked at in there

Jelly 292

Funky Cinema like Venue with a great reputation on Leeson Street...

Im assuming that the issue is just with this one engineer as everyone else seems bang on. Maybe we just lucked out and got the same engineer twice running. I hope to never have to deal with this person agian as I wont be holding my lip next time!

John

I can't understand the attitude of engineers like this. The whole point of a sound engineer is to make you sound good and you can't sound good unless they either:
a) listen to what you have to say and what you want from the sound of your band
and
b) give you feedback (of the critical, not the guitar kind) on what works in that particular venue.

I've experienced some sound sound engineers but the odd one who acts like described above really puts me off going to an unfamiliar venue. We played in a certain Temple Bar venue and the sound engineer actually left the room during our set. No levels were changed, couldn't get the monitors adjusted and couldn't get the sound balanced on the fly. Being an instrumental band we don't need the microphones during the songs but between songs it's nice to talk to the crowd, I had to shout to the audience as he wasn't around to do even that.

Jelly, just out of interest, could you PM me the venue that you had this problem? It's always nice to know in advance of playing a venue what the staff are like. Plus I'm interested to know if it was the same venue!

EDIT: Nevermind, it's not the same one.

miju

Jelly 292 wrote: »

I could easily name and shame but you know the politics in Dublin, name and shame and kiss goodbye to more gigs from this venue/promoter:mad:

Irish music scene is small (compared internationally) it is still quite large and they're loads of promoters in Dublin alone never mind the rest of the country. venues dont give a ****e what you say once you pull a decent crowd for their bar and pay them the hire fee.

as for promoters well they are ten a penny (good ones are not as hard to find as you'd think either). Personally any promoter that would have asked me to apologise to an engineer (back when I was still playing) would have been incredibly swiftly told to go stick it up his arse.

Jelly 292

The thing is I expect and understand grumpy engineers and this is basically the norm in this town it seems, that’s fine can almost empathizes with them, it can be a thankless and annoying job.
But similar to John’s example this was above and beyond the regular low standards.

It's the attitude that if you are an unsigned little band maybe starting out or just doing your time on the circuit you can be openly abused, in this case in front of everyone in the venue-bar staff, other bands ,doormen etc.

It does not put you in a good frame of mind to enjoy the gig. I tried to ignore it and we had a good enough time and a great laugh after but it’s been on my mind for days since.
Had to make it public in the hope that engineer reads this, if so get that chip of your sholder!

miju

Jelly 292 wrote: »

It's the attitude that if you are an unsigned little band maybe starting out or just doing your time on the circuit you can be openly abused, in this case in front of everyone in the venue-bar staff, other bands ,doormen etc.

think you may have a bit of an inferiority complex there seriously in the 150 odd gigs I've either run or helped run I've only ever seen this attitude twice and both times was the same dick of an engineer in Whelans which is one of the reasons I dont like gigs there (though personally I think it's **** anyways)

The engineers in The Village, TBMC (I will NEVER call it the button factory ) , Eamon Dorans (to an extent) and so on I have found are professional in the whole. And by professional I mean courtious (with the usual bit of sound jockey grumpyness )

Jelly 292

'think you may have a bit of an inferiority complex there'
I suppose now you mention it thats it!

I was just describing the impression that the engineer sent out but if thats how I come across then thats my lack of word skill.

I did state that its prob our bad luck to have the same engineer twice and Im suprised someone like that would be working in this gaff which does not get such a good rep for nothing.

And the Button Factory is a pretty unfortunate name...

DerKaiser

Do we refer to the sugar club? I get on well with most soundies, I'm nice to them and they're nice to me, I once had the misfortune to play the sugar club, the engineer may as well not have been there though, he sat with his feet up reading a paper, the sound was woeful, at one point I pulled out a semi electric and D.I.'d it, just as I had done during soundcheck, after several moments of pointless strumming I had to ask him for some juice, made us sound unprofessional.
And on other time in Voodoo, the other guitarist and I starting tuning our guitars during sound check, the eng said "stop tunin!" "You, give me your guitar!" to me, and then the other guitarist and said "Right, play now!" "Stop! For F*@ks sake, tune your guitars!!" ARRRRGGGGHHH!

But other than that if you don't f*@k about during soundcheck and you get up and down professionally and you are civil to the soundie, you generally don't have problems, but some people are just assholes.

Jelly 292

But other than that if you don't f*@k about during soundcheck and you get up and down professionally and you are civil to the soundie, you generally don't have problems, but some people are just assholes.

This is the crux of it tho. I fully understand the agro of dealing with inexperienced/rude musician’s night in night out, you need patience of a saint.

No one was giving any grief at all in this instance; the engineer was the one acting like an arse from the get go.

It was unwarranted grief in this case and the second time running I have seen the same engineer act the same way. Maybe it was just a bad day, or two.

But Id go with the latter part of your statement I think.

nimbo

Hey Jelly...
Listen man....
Nobody and i mean nobody has the right to treat any band like youve described there and if you want my opinion- next time treat fire with fire and spread the word about this person... If you loose a gig, you gain respect in the long run...

telecaster

Hey Jelly

My band played Saturday night at the Sugar Club too (it is Saturday you're talking about?). We were the late band on after midnight - Special Brew.

I dont know whether you had a different sound guy to us or not - I doubt it - but that fella was fine with us and always has been in fairness. We play there regularly so he knows us, not that it should make a difference of course. But I thought I should speak up for the guy as we've never had a problem with him over dozens of gigs.

Having said that I've been in your shoes too when I was just getting started out and any particular sound man could just make your day a whole more difficult than necessary. It's not pleasant.

NeMiSiS

Soundchecks piss me off, and it's not the engineers that usually annoy me it's bands pricking about, clueless about what they are trying to do. I know that sounds a bit harsh.. but I figure if it takes more than 5 minutes to check.. it's took too long.

Have your instruments tuned before you get to the stage.

Know what song you are going to play... it doesn't have to be the whole thing.. not "What will we do lads?" "UH.. Uh.. I dunno .. uh"

Speak to the engineer before hand, say hello introduce yourself be polite and professional.

This is a great article - http://www.josaka.com/Features/2002/SoundCheck.htm .

Doctor J has some good tips on this kind of thing too.

TK

ShriekingSheet

Yes Doc J has posted many insightful pieces on this over the years.

An abusive guy is an abusive guy and regardless of his role in putting on the gig, it's just not on. But rather than post another "that's awful" comment, as per Nemisis above, there are always little things that you can improve in the way that you deal with any sound engineer.

(I'm just playing devil's advocat here for general readers - not necesarily aimed @ the OP!)

Little bits that help in my experience...

Get in contact with all bands playing on the night well in advance-
Often, promoters will not know the ins and outs of backlines. Your best bet is to take the initiative. Get contact details from the promoter or even just make contact on myspace. A group mail saying "right, who needs what backline? Who'll provide what?" etc. This way you can plan your amp sharing etc in advance meaning less mic-ing up to do for the engineer but more importantly, when you arrive there at 6pm, everyone immediately knows what's going on stage and where (from the pre discussions among bands). Having everything including drums in place by 6.45pm gives the SE no excuse to not have everything mic'd up for 7.10pm. As you're setting up, get your settings on the amps right, tune guitars etc and line up pedals. Basically the point being that you are ready and waiting for the SE rather than the other way around.


Meet, greet and come prepared-
Introduce yourself on arrival to the SE. Have a very brief outline of your set up something like below and a set list. (SE may or may not want these but good to provide them). Both these docs should have the name of your band and set-time in the running order on them. Being nice and offering a drink helps!

"Guitar left slightly louder than Guitar centre
Vox centre and vox left on a nice par
Bass player requires plenty of centre guitar and vox in monitor"

Note: if you wanna be really slick you can encourage all three band splaying to provide something really brief like above. Again, the SE may laugh but I'd say most would appreciate it.


Keep your amps low on stage and let the PA/monitors do the work-
Often the main reason people can't hear themselves in their monitor because of loud amps on stage. The is CRUCIAL in smaller venues.


Know what you want from a soundcheck and where the value is-
1. Can you play with the monitor mix?
2. Is the SE happy with the sound?
Usually, the SE will get things in order with the first soundcheckers and every other band will be easy enough from there. The main thing is you guys on stage can hear enough in your monitors to perform well. It's key that bands take into account that NO ONE bar them can hear the monitor mix as on stage so geting the SE to tweak it so it's sounds nicer is pretty fruitless. You have no option but to trust him/her that the PA sound/mix is good. Tweaking monitors is not worth too much time.


Soundcheck uber-efficiently-
Play ONE MINUTE. Stop. Ask for any changes to mix/monitors. Play another minute or two. If all is ok, say "that's grand thanks".


Boost/Drive/Dist Pedals-
Know what settings work best on your pedals ESPECIALLY level settings so you're not going between quiet and earthshattering! Ask the SE, "is this ok?" when giving him a quick 5 secs of pedal on and pedal off.



I don't suggest that this is an ideal world approach but i think it works best for your band. It's based on the theory that you need to make life as EASY as possible for the guy to do a decent job, resulting in a higher chance of him actually doing a decent job.

Let me know if this helps and I'll think of some more...

NeMiSiS

Good post ShriekingSheet,

Basically if you meet the most ungratful bastard of asound enginner, if you are going out of your way to facilitate him, by being ready, professional, focused, and polite, if he starts to take an abusive line it's him that will look unprofessional and not the band. If have a complaint and want to take it further, you can explain to the manager/promoter who ever the steps you took to be professional and how the engineer did not.

This might be getting a bit off the point.. but be sure to say "Thank you" to anyone letting you use their equipment.. wether its a guitar players amp or drum kit etc. I usally bring a back line amp.. and nothing wrecks my head more than someone I have never met just barging me out of the way and plugging into my amp "Is this the amp I'm usin yeh?' "Where's the footswitch?!?' ... It's just manners, but it seems to go out the window with some musicians. Maybe I expect to much from my fellow human beings!

TK

ShriekingSheet

NeMiSiS wrote: »

Good post ShriekingSheet,

Basically if you meet the most ungratful bastard of asound enginner, if you are going out of your way to facilitate him, by being ready, professional, focused, and polite, if he starts to take an abusive line it's him that will look unprofessional and not the band. If have a complaint and want to take it further, you can explain to the manager/promoter who ever the steps you took to be professional and how the engineer did not.

This might be getting a bit off the point.. but be sure to say "Thank you" to anyone letting you use their equipment.. wether its a guitar players amp or drum kit etc. I usally bring a back line amp.. and nothing wrecks my head more than someone I have never met just barging me out of the way and plugging into my amp "Is this the amp I'm usin yeh?' "Where's the footswitch?!?' ... It's just manners, but it seems to go out the window with some musicians. Maybe I expect to much from my fellow human beings!

TK

Haha, specially when the turn the gain and treble to 11!

In fairness, the majority of times I've seen this happen it's been a band new-ish it gigging who may have the impression that gear is provided by a promoter/venue and as such is for universal use. Sure they've prob been told "there'll be an amp there you can use" by the organiser.

Did happen me once though with a fairly established band who sent one of their minions down to the backstage to say "giz the footswitch off that amp will ya"

JimiTime

Jelly 292 wrote: »

Did a gig the other night in a popular venue in Dublin and the attitude of the engineer in there was the worst I have ever seen. The engineer belittled one band after another with unwarranted rudeness and complete disdain.

It started bad. All the bands were there at 6 for the sound check as was the engineer. We did not start to sound check until the promoter turned up and asked the engineer to get started, this was 7.45.
I was there at 5.30 so I waited till gone 8 and we did not get a sound check due to the engineer’s complete disinterest.
That’s nearly 3 hours of my time where I could have been somewhere more worthwhile.

This was actually the second gig I have done there in the last month or two with the same engineer each time. On both occasions I was taken aback by this person’s attitude to all the performers on the night.
Within a few minutes of each bands sound check the engineer was talking to each band like they were naughty 5 years olds and being a complete arsehole towards them.
I understand that engineers have to put up with a lot of cr@p from a lot of inexperienced/egotistical people on a nightly basis but on this occasion no one gave the engineer any grief what so ever.

Simply asking for a bit more level in a monitor would be replied to with 'you must be deaf if you cant here that' another was 'Do you want to come up here an do this?' when I had the cheek to ask for a little more level in my monitor again.

Another bassist just asked 'for a bit of everything in there monitor' and the reply was 'there’s no everything button' It decended into naked aggression from there.

When one member of the band had the gal to make a smart comment back after much goading from the engineer the promoter made the band apologies to the engineer, I mean what the fu$k??????!!!!

I cannot see how a great venue like this can have an engineer like this resident. It seems that the main function of the engineer was to antagonize each band to the degree where the night was sullied and each band was completely disheartened before they played.
As it went, we had a good gig and although I could not hear anything due to a terrible mix I felt the response from the crowed was vindication in front of this person in the sound box.

I’m well used the regular grumy, tired engineer who just wants to get done and go home, I can understand why they feel like this, but this was on a different level.
If you don’t like the job to this extent then leave!! In this small town you are bloody lucky to be making a few quid doing a job like this!

I don’t understand why this person does this job as they so clearly hate every band that steps on stage and makes it clear that that they think we are all a bunch of losers and beneath their contempt.

Sorry for the anger, I just had to get this of my chest as I feel none of the bands had any recourse to respond on the night. I shall be dreading playing the there in the future, which is a real pity

:D:D i wonder who this is:D:D Though I wouldn't let people like the engineer in question get to me, I can second Jelly's story. Very poor profesionalism, and quite goading to the musicians. Even if one was trying to give the engineer the benefit of the doubt, i.e. if the band were overtly unprofessional etc, the engineer would still be bang out of order. As jelly says, theres the grumpy engineer, and theres the plain rude abnoxious ones.

Jelly 292

Sounds advice all, thanks.
Cheers Jimi, I would not let stuff like this effect me playing, but I'd have to admit I was annoyed thinking about the whole thing the next day, more so for the other band that really got an earful, nice guys.

Still great venue, good gig just ignore the engineer and get on with it if it happens agian:cool:

WetDaddy

The best best best remedy to this situation has to be the most obvious one: Get your own engineer. It'll cost you a bit of money per gig (at a guess, €60 - €70 although you may end up regularly using the guy / girl, etc.) but it's... I'm at a loss for words, really... It's "uncomparable", the difference.

You've enough to think about on the night not to be worried about what engineer you're going to get, is he / she going to be any good, is he / she going to be obnoxious / friendly, etc.

It's unfortunate to have to approach things in this manner, but it's really worth it. Also, over time "your" engineer will come to know what levels you like, the setup of your instruments, how you play / sing and your soundchecks will be much quicker. If you're lucky (and they're interested enough), they may even come to learn the tunes and can help out at the desk when, say, a louder chorus is coming up, or whatever.

studiorat

Folex wrote: »

The best best best remedy to this situation has to be the most obvious one: Get your own engineer. It'll cost you a bit of money per gig (at a guess, €60 - €70 although you may end up regularly using the guy / girl, etc.) but it's... I'm at a loss for words, really... It's "uncomparable", the difference.

WTF?
That's the very crux of the problem right there!!
I've been an engineer for nearly 20 years, I've been there. 3 or 4 **** bands each thinking they are great, each wanting a two hour sound check when most wouldn't know good sound if it bit them on the arse.

If you offered me €60 or €70 for a gig I'd f*cking twat Ya! I was getting that amount in pounds for simple acoustic gigs when I was still in school.

And to everybody else interested.
The guy didn't have a problem with the band later cause they turn up and play and play well, little or no sound check. Arrive, set-up, play, That's what professionalisim really is. You don't need a sound check, I reckon the PA set-up hasn't changed in that place for years.

If the guy was getting paid properly he might have been bothered to give you the customer satisfaction your ego needs. I suppose you could blame the promoter cause there's nobody coming to the gig so there isn't the budget to pay the engineer properly, or is it that nobody goes to gigs anymore?

Royale with Cheese

Was this sound engineer female by any chance? The phrase 'there's no everything button' rings a bell.

Jelly 292

Was this sound engineer female by any chance? The phrase 'there's no everything button' rings a bell

Yes

smurf32

all the bands there and nobody gave him a slap r 2 what about rock n roll!!!
id show him drum stick up the 4 sure.
stay safe all
smurf

Poppy Cock

Jelly 292 wrote: »

I could easily name and shame but you know the politics in Dublin, name and shame and kiss goodbye to more gigs from this venue/promoter:mad:

Just name the venue FFS - unless your real name is 'Jelly 292' then I think you're anonymous enough...

I know where you're coming from though: most sound engineers have an undeserved sense of self importance - they're bitter because they get crappy pay, but they have big egos because they think they're important because most other sound engineers can't find work.

Poppy Cock

telecaster wrote: »

Hey Jelly

My band played Saturday night at the Sugar Club too (it is Saturday you're talking about?). We were the late band on after midnight - Special Brew.

I dont know whether you had a different sound guy to us or not - I doubt it - but that fella was fine with us and always has been in fairness. We play there regularly so he knows us, not that it should make a difference of course. But I thought I should speak up for the guy as we've never had a problem with him over dozens of gigs..

He never said it was the Sugar Club. He did say something cryptic like "Funky Cinema" though, whatever the fook that means.

smurf wrote:

all the bands there and nobody gave him a slap r 2 what about rock n roll!!!
id show him drum stick up the 4 sure.
stay safe all

He said was the engineer was female.

WetDaddy

studiorat wrote: »

WTF?
That's the very crux of the problem right there!!
I've been an engineer for nearly 20 years, I've been there. 3 or 4 **** bands each thinking they are great, each wanting a two hour sound check when most wouldn't know good sound if it bit them on the arse.

If you offered me €60 or €70 for a gig I'd f*cking twat Ya! I was getting that amount in pounds for simple acoustic gigs when I was still in school.

Steady on there, buddy. You do realise I meant hiring your own engineer for your own band, right? As in, you bring him / her with you and she engineers just for you, not for anyone else.

If you do realise that and are still upset at the price, then all I can tell you is that I'm working from experience here. If you expect to get paid a lot more than that for engineering just one band in one pub in Dublin (for, let's assume, one hour + setting up time as well, if you're helping with that), then I'm surprised.

Also keep in mind that while you've "been an engineer for nearly 20 years", you're entitled to charge a lot more. Like with any trade, if you're just starting out then you can't expect to get paid as much as more experienced workers. The engineers I worked with before had not been doing it for any time as long as that.

I'd be interested to know if you'd still "f*cking twat" me after reading this. If so, I must have everything backwards.