is it the end of ept Dublin

nicnicnic

well probably not but with the bad turnout I think its a fair ? here was Duthie's response to the low numbers on the hendonmob forum. Although he could of been on tilt after Valor 2 outed him on the cash tables

"The turn out in Dublin is of course a disappointment and I can't deny that the 8K buy-in will have contributed towards this.

You should all know that it was always my intention (and still is) to have tournaments that are there for the players and not just for the rich, sponsored or successful players as Mark Strahan puts it, but for the whole poker community.

I think I have said before that we reluctantlly raised the buy-ins of the EPT events because European venues are just not large enough. All tournaments in Europe have to be run in licensed premises and with a few exceptions these premises just cannot cope with numbers in excess of 500 players.

I spoke to many players about this before making the decision and the options were to either have three/four starting days and then because there would be so many chips in play an additional 3/4 days after that. This would mean that every EPT event alone would last for 7-8 days. This just isn't a good option. I would love it if we had huge casino hotels like in the US, but we just don't.

What would you do, have an event at 3-5K that consistently sells out and leaves many players without a seat, some of whom have travelled miles to the venue. Or try to control the numbers by increasing the buy-in and encourage players to reserve their seats in advance. It's a real dilemma.

I agree with Mark that we do have to rethink this for Dublin, because it's self-evident that it hasn't worked here. We're trying to work out why, but these are the factors: the glut of tournaments in Sept/Oct; no TV coverage; no specific venue and also lack of support from Irish players.

Hopefully Dublin will be an exception and judging from the interest in the EPT Prague tournament (December 10-14) it looks like it will be.

I always listen to sensible input and adopt it if it the majority are in favour."

Theresalwaysone

The EPT Dublin needs one thing.


A Bar.

Ollieboy

what a ass of a answer.

1. buy in is far to much and this is the reason irish players didnt play. Just not enough players have the bankroll here and its would be to much of a glut of local money into one game. Anyone with a brain would understand this, but not John.

2. EPT is really bad value, 10k 1 hr clock, with the poor turn out, they increase the stack to 15k. It should have always been 15k with 90 minute clock.

3. selling out is good, and it encourages player in the future to pre-book, allowing the TD to run the event more efficent. If the IPC can do it, I'm sure Pokerstars/EPT can do it. He should have kept it at 5k cap 500 players and theres loads of places that can hold more than 1000 players. Ask PPP.

4. Baden was also a poor show.

5. Is it the end of the EPT or the Irish EPT, I think the EPT added to many events this year, not enough on-line qualifiers and live qualifiers and to big of buy-in and they done all this during the down turn in poker in US and Europe.

6. I'm just back from Vegas and even Ceasers 1 million event only attracted 280 odd runners, just not enough big players around to play all these big events.

7. I think John comments about lack of irish support is a poor excuse, we would only add at best 25-50 players to a event like this, what did he think300 odd players from Ireland with 8k.

EPT is not a loss to Dublin, but Dublin will be a loss to the EPT.

Its typical bad management of poker events in Europe

RichieLawlor

Ollieboy wrote: »

what a ass of a answer.

1. buy in is far to much and this is the reason irish players didnt play. Just not enough players have the bankroll here and its would be to much of a glut of local money into one game. Anyone with a brain would understand this, but not John.

2. EPT is really bad value, 10k 1 hr clock, with the poor turn out, they increase the stack to 15k. It should have always been 15k with 90 minute clock.

3. selling out is good, and it encourages player in the future to pre-book, allowing the TD to run the event more efficent. If the IPC can do it, I'm sure Pokerstars/EPT can do it. He should have kept it at 5k cap 500 players and theres loads of places that can hold more than 1000 players. Ask PPP.

4. Baden was also a poor show.

5. Is it the end of the EPT or the Irish EPT, I think the EPT added to many events this year, not enough on-line qualifiers and live qualifiers and to big of buy-in and they done all this during the down turn in poker in US and Europe.

6. I'm just back from Vegas and even Ceasers 1 million event only attracted 280 odd runners, just not enough big players around to play all these big events.

7. I think John comments about lack of irish support is a poor excuse, we would only add at best 25-50 players to a event like this, what did he think300 odd players from Ireland with 8k.

EPT is not a loss to Dublin, but Dublin will be a loss to the EPT.

Its typical bad management of poker events in Europe

Very nice post Ollie

David Michael

Ollieboy wrote: »

EPT is not a loss to Dublin, but Dublin will be a loss to the EPT.

Its typical bad management of poker events in Europe

#


..

nicnicnic

Ollieboy wrote: »

6. I'm just back from Vegas and even Ceasers 1 million event only attracted 280 odd runners, just not enough big players around to play all these big events.

Did you play it Ollie

this is an interesting development the legends of poker WPT in September had a big drop in numbers and the WPT Barcelona was expected to sell out but had 217 runners I think. There seems to be a WPT event every week these days and the EPT look to be going down the same road.

To blame the local turn out is a real cop out IMO, they clearly had a target punter when the buy in was decided on 8k. Then when there's not enough of who they targeted turn up to blame those they excluded is a bit of a joke

Ollieboy

nicnicnic wrote: »

Did you play it Ollie

this is an interesting development the legends of poker WPT in September had a big drop in numbers and the WPT Barcelona was expected to sell out but had 217 runners I think. There seems to be a WPT event every week these days and the EPT look to be going down the same road.

To blame the local turn out is a real cop out IMO, they clearly had a target punter when the buy in was decided on 8k. Then when there's not enough of who they targeted turn up to blame those they excluded is a bit of a joke

it was a $10k buyin, so tried a 500 super-sat, got bust with QQ v's JJ allin preflop, I was QQ. I bust 2 players in the first hand of the night, allin on the flop, all 3 players holding sets, 3's v's 7's v's my Q's. First time I ever saw it. I than played a 1k stt the next day, again QQ v's AK allin preflop shorthand to bust out with a A and K on flop. So didnt waste anymore money and played some side events. But the athmosphere was very poor and the standard was a lot better than in the WSOP, but I would expect that. The big cash game seem to be the only action in town.

I didnt mind the extra venues for the EPT, but extra venues meant more seats, so that should have been enough, no need for the extra buyin.

The WPT is not very well support by players due to media restrictions etc, so this is not a supprise. I think better quality and more value is the desired option for WPT and WSOP and EPT, also included the Asian tour in that lists.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Ollieboy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Good stuff Ollie. But to put it in five words:

Market is reaching saturation point.

agree and the market as respond with some excellant value tourneys, so much so its getting out of hand. But you now see the same faces every week and that includes the games in UK. I think the money is now raising to the top more than ever.

Hitman Actual

Ollieboy wrote: »

7. I think John comments about lack of irish support is a poor excuse, we would only add at best 25-50 players to a event like this, what did he think300 odd players from Ireland with 8k.

Agreed. I didn't like that comment by John Duthie at all.

Theresalwaysone

I didnt mean in in a smart way. I was being serious. If it had a bar it would be more attractive to railers, so better atmosphere so more appealing to players.

I am not suggesting that it is the only thing wrong but I have heard many people say in the RDS and I have been there more than most that they would hang around longer, play cash, be happier if there was somewhere to get a drink.

Requiem4adream

I got to drink a couple of nights with John in Barcelona last year, sound guy no bs out of him. I think everyone says things they dont necessarily mean in the heat of the moment or when feeling disappointed, im sure if he reflects on that comment he'll wish he worded it differently. After all the 5k buy-in EPT was a success and the 3k Irish Open was a success.

I think he should follow Stars example, the guarantees they offer and the tournaments they fill are due to an intensive satellite schedule. He should find a way of switching the emphasis onto the domestic market in each EPT country by organising a lot more satellites online and live a lot earlier in the year.

bops

Requiem4adream wrote: »

I got to drink a couple of nights with John in Barcelona last year, sound guy no bs out of him. I think everyone says things they dont necessarily mean in the heat of the moment or when feeling disappointed, im sure if he reflects on that comment he'll wish he worded it differently. After all the 5k buy-in EPT was a success and the 3k Irish Open was a success.

I think he should follow Stars example, the guarantees they offer and the tournaments they fill are due to an intensive satellite schedule. He should find a way of switching the emphasis onto the domestic market in each EPT country by organising a lot more satellites online and live a lot earlier in the year.

you are correct in what you say, but imo the buyin of 8k is too big for satts to run in the numbers they require

their weekly finals are very expensive @ $1k for a 1/13 chance to us regular punters

it also kills the chance of local live sats - its very difficult to get people to fork out €400 for a 1/20 chance for example

5k is plenty imo - i for one would have played if if was 5k - 8k is simply just too much for one tourney

i'd also be happy playing a 500 stt for a ticket as would many others

bohsman

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

I didnt mean in in a smart way. I was being serious. If it had a bar it would be more attractive to railers, so better atmosphere so more appealing to players.

I am not suggesting that it is the only thing wrong but I have heard many people say in the RDS and I have been there more than most that they would hang around longer, play cash, be happier if there was somewhere to get a drink.

There is a bar beside the snack bar. Opens at 6.

Fatboydim

Jeez Theresalwaysone... How can you call yourself an Irishman and not have found the Bar. LOL - The Guinness in there was bad though. Very fizzy... [And drink wasn't allowed in the arena]

The problem here is the 8k - no doubt about it. And it was evident it was going to produce low numbers as I predicted before the event started. It was clear on boards that this would happen as their was no Buzz. It was clear in Barcelona when at The press conference the floor was opened to questions and there was only one - From me - "Why the hike in the Buy in" To give John credit his answer was almost the same as above. I thought then that other Journalists would run with the question - But they didn't - and as a player representing another sight's blog I felt I couldn't harangue the guy - but the fact of the matter is they have been trying to turn it into an elitist tournament and it has backfired.

To take John's point about keeping it down to a manageable number of days - Isn't that what the cap was for? Surely players paying 5k into an event don't play slower than players paying 8k?

I think it's highly possible that Dublin will disappear from the EPT calendar. And it's a real shame if it does- But you can't blame players for that. After all isn't Dublin the home of the two largest fields in European Poker history?

kincsem

It was a miscalculation by the EPT. Why don't they get a sheet of graph paper and plot on it buy-in against number of players playing for all events (main and supporting)? And do aother graph of the total amount of cash taken at each location for all tourneys, year by year. They should know where the choke point is.

We already had a €3,500 Irish Open this year (up from €1000 four years ago).

Imo the EPT tried to run something akin to the $10k WSOP ME in about ten venues around Europe, a continent without a poker culture.

Will Paddy Power rethink their 2008 €4,500 fee?

The WSOP main event grew because they kept it at $10k. They could have killed it if years ago if they kept raising the entry money.

Fatboydim

kincsem wrote: »

Will Paddy Power rethink their 2008 €4,500 fee?

I would say that's locked in Sean because there have already been qualifiers for the event.

However I do think it means that the Open will remain the top Irish tournament and maybe even the top European tournament in terms of support.

NickyOD

What annoys me most about it is the complete lack of foresight, planning and imagination when it comes to choosing a venue and this goes for other future events where the venue has already been finalised also. If there is no suitable venue in Dublin (and I doubt that's true) then there are plenty of other suitable locations in close enough proximity to international airports that would suffice. Dublin is not the holy grail. Next year have the "Irish" EPT somewhere else please.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

NickyOD wrote: »

What annoys me most about it is the complete lack of foresight, planning and imagination when it comes to choosing a venue and this goes for other future events where the venue has already been finalised also. If there is no suitable venue in Dublin (and I doubt that's true) then there are plenty of other suitable locations in close enough proximity to international airports that would suffice. Dublin is not the holy grail. Next year have the "Irish" EPT somewhere else please.

My house has 4 bedrooms . seat 80 i reckon includin the gargge day 1a/b/c/

Ollieboy

personally I think 4.5k is to much for a national poker championship, but this event is aim at the internation market, so its very reasonable if you compare it in that light. But if you look at the UK, I think the biggest events over there are 1k on average and these attract 200/300 players.

I would rather all big tourneys be cap at 5k in Europe, having 500 sats live and online allowing 1 ticket for 10 players etc. 5k is almost 8k in dollars now and leave the really big main event in Europe at 10k. Ie the 1 or 2 events at most, WSOPE and maybe Monte.

I think the problem greed in general. Now I'm just out of bed and miss the charity event, bad start to the day.

HeeHawsCantona

I had a conversation with John Dutie in Barca last year where the event was massively oversubscribed - there were 480 seats and he was getting hassle from all directions from people who had travelled and had no seat - they would have filled 650 easily.
I was there on the Monday and the 500 tourney was taking alternates at least 2 hours before kickoff and the supersat on the tuesday was already full.

John was saying that the big problem that they had were venues and that in most cities they had to play in casinos and that they just weren't big enough - Ireland obviously was an exception to this.

It was obviously a complex problem but IMO Ireland should never have been increased to 8k as they could cope with the numbers. The other big issue I felt was the absence of the side events on the EPT website for EPT Dublin.

Goodluck2me

HeeHawsCantona wrote: »

I had a conversation with John Dutie in Barca last year where the event was massively oversubscribed - there were 480 seats and he was getting hassle from all directions from people who had travelled and had no seat - they would have filled 650 easily.
I was there on the Monday and the 500 tourney was taking alternates at least 2 hours before kickoff and the supersat on the tuesday was already full.

John was saying that the big problem that they had were venues and that in most cities they had to play in casinos and that they just weren't big enough - Ireland obviously was an exception to this.

It was obviously a complex problem but IMO Ireland should never have been increased to 8k as they could cope with the numbers. The other big issue I felt was the absence of the side events on the EPT website for EPT Dublin.

just add another start day to the Barca Leg.

5starpool

I think the option of increasing the buy in was bad tbh, and reduced fields all round will show this to be a fallacy I reckon. Also, the fact that John Duthie was playing the Omaha game in the Fitz on Friday night might be an admission that he didn not like the supposedly hign rake at the cash games (nothing to do with him I presume, more Merrion policy) was way too high.

They should move the entry back to €5k and either choose better venues (there have to be places like the RDS in more countries) or have more days. The EPT is in danger of ruining itself it seems.

Goodluck2me

5starpool wrote: »

I think the option of increasing the buy in was bad tbh, and reduced fields all round will show this to be a fallacy I reckon. Also, the fact that John Duthie was playing the Omaha game in the Fitz on Friday night might be an admission that he didn not like the supposedly hign rake at the cash games (nothing to do with him I presume, more Merrion policy) was way too high.

They should move the entry back to €5k and either choose better venues (there have to be places like the RDS in more countries) or have more days. The EPT is in danger of ruining itself it seems.

Id imagine he played in the fitz as it was the only game in town at the time. It also ran feeders.
Secondly the other countries may have places like the RDS but mightnt be able to ghost the casino licences to them?

Shortstack

I know that John is keen to keep the EPT in Dublin. I had a few conversations with him this week and I can assure you that changes for the good will be made. John is very astute, he knows exactly what the problems were and will make every effort to correct them.

thechamp87

Is it likely that the buy in will revert to €5,000??

Fatboydim

EPT Warsaw

Please note that the buy-in for EPT Warsaw (March 11-15, 2008) has been re-set. The new buy-in will be 20,000 + 1,000 Polish Zlotys , making it a total of 21,000 PLN (€5,758.00 approximately) .

looks like lesson learnt

carfax

Fatboydim wrote: »

EPT Warsaw

Please note that the buy-in for EPT Warsaw (March 11-15, 2008) has been re-set. The new buy-in will be 20,000 + 1,000 Polish Zlotys , making it a total of 21,000 PLN (€5,758.00 approximately) .

looks like lesson learnt

Thats great news.

RoundTower

nicnicnic wrote: »

All tournaments in Europe have to be run in licensed premises

what does this mean, this is not the usual meaning of "licensed premises" I assume, but then what?

Killme00

Croke Park anyone, how many can those rooms hold, 500 i would say.

PPP-Pit Boss

kincsem wrote: »

Will Paddy Power rethink their 2008 €4,500 fee?

No, but we are unlikely to increase it much further in the coming years. It has to be competitive in terms of prize-pool, but we do not want it to become out of range to qualify for.
JD is correct about venues but I wouldnt agree with his point about local support.
We have had a hell of a time trying to find a venue that can hold the IO field, so quite honestly I cannot see the player capacity for the IO increasing in coming years either.

JP Poker

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

No, but we are unlikely to increase it much further in the coming years. It has to be competitive in terms of prize-pool, but we do not want it to become out of range to qualify for.
JD is correct about venues but I wouldnt agree with his point about local support.
We have had a hell of a time trying to find a venue that can hold the IO field, so quite honestly I cannot see the player capacity for the IO increasing in coming years either.

Would you consider holding 2 day 1's

BigCityBanker

JP Poker wrote: »

Would you consider holding 2 day 1's

there are two day ones scheduled for 2008

Ollieboy

I hate the ideas of two days 1's. It usually means you have to wait for the draw to see which day your playing and its advantage again to the pro, as we poor taxpayers have to arrange time off out of our holidays. Its one of the reason I've move away from trying to qualify for big live games and it puts me off trying to go to the WSOP.

Also tourneys starting on a weekday like the EPT or any events on a Friday make it more differcult. At least if you make the final table on a Monday its only effecting 9 people and they can call in sick...lol

bohsman

RoundTower wrote: »

what does this mean, this is not the usual meaning of "licensed premises" I assume, but then what?

Similar to the reason we couldnt get shuffling machines, have to be held in a licensed casino. Seems the loophole here is that they are using the Merrions gaming license.