ethics

ocallagh

please, no direct conversation about recent events. just a simple poll.

I'm shocked at some of the replies to recent events and thought this poll might be interesting

marius

ocallagh wrote: »

please, no direct conversation about recent events. just a simple poll.

When someone attempts to win a pot (that they have no right to) by breaking the rules of poker is it:

great for people bored in work?

The_Chopper

ocallagh wrote: »

please, no direct conversation about recent events. just a simple poll.

I'm shocked at some of the replies to recent events and thought this poll might be interesting

I'd love to know the rules of poker when it comes to
1. Angle shooting,
2. Speech play,

Rules are meant to be stretched, bent and rewrote but never broken

CaptainNemo

Breaking the rules obviously is unacceptable by definition. The question is only interesting when it comes to "bending" the rules, or angle shooting. Hence, "Atari Jaguar"

ocallagh

no, bending a rule is breaking a rule. angle shooting is breaking a rule. if you can bend a rule then how on earth can a TD ever make a decision. it is black and white.

meathman 007

id love to know who the person is who said it was pushing the limits but acceptable..... you are quite literally robbing a significant amount of money off someone, poker has a dodgy enough image in this country already without the likes of these actions being brought into peoples games

BigDragon

OT: Niall check PM please

CaptainNemo

ocallagh wrote: »

no, bending a rule is breaking a rule. if you can bend a rule then how on earth can a TD ever make a decision. it is black and white.

If it was black and white there would be no need for a poll and no debate at all.

There are definitely instances of rules being "bent" in the sense that someone does something that while not strictly against the rules is definitely against the spirit of the rules.

Bending a rule is (for a totally random example with no relation at all to recent events) misdeclaring your hand. It is not explicitly against any rule to misdeclare your hand, and it can't be, since people often do it by accident. Cards speak. To deliberately misdeclare your hand, however, IS against the spirit of the rules.

Therefore I would say this is bending the rule and not breaking it. Angle shooting, not cheating.

I also believe this is an important distinction, especially in poker. Cheating is a very serious accusation which would result in being banned from clubs. Angle shooting might make you think less of someone's character but does not have the same implications.

Samba

my bad...references

Grimebox

slightly baised poll?

ionapaul

ocallagh wrote: »

I'm shocked at some of the replies to recent events

Agreed. I'd love to see an analysis of opinion on the matter by age / life stage of poster, I got the feeling from different thread that the idea 'all's fair in love and poker' is held by more younger players than old.

5starpool

ionapaul wrote: »

Agreed. I'd love to see an analysis of opinion on the matter by age / life stage of poster, I got the feeling from different thread that the idea 'all's fair in love and poker' is held by more younger players than old.

Whatever about old, I think it might be a split from people who have played live a lot for 2 or more years that might be more towards fairness above all, even though this is only a generalisation and certainly doesn't hold true in all cases on either side.

kincsem

"To steal a pin is a sin". Thats an old saying, but if you decide to start drawing lines, you will draw them to suit yourself.

El Stuntman

ionapaul wrote: »

Agreed. I'd love to see an analysis of opinion on the matter by age / life stage of poster, I got the feeling from different thread that the idea 'all's fair in love and poker' is held by more younger players than old.

I noticed that too

dammit, we're old fcukers

edited to say I just voted and am greatly heartened by the results to date. seems like most of this forum has its moral compass pretty well set

NeoSlicerZ

I will never approve of angleshooting. Reputation is a currency that's far harder to gain and just as easy to lose as money anyhow.
Speech play is really your own fault though if you're affected by it negatively. That being said, I'll do all I can to mitigate any angle shooting. I never muck my cards before the opponent has shown at showdown, never trust the other guy, ever, even if you know him very well. Afterall money can bring out the worst in people and your view of the game is just that, your personal view.

This is a push poll to be fair. You are asking if rule breaking is unfair, which most people would say it is, and not is angle shooting unfair, which would get a much different set of answers as people disagree on whether angle shooting is rule breaking or not. This is an intensely biased poll.

Imposter

I agree with the previous poster. Where in the rules does it say that declaring a false hand is against the rules. I was under the impression that the cards speak. In saying that though the conduct afterwards was out of order even though in reality the dealer should have had the cards in the muck.

gosplan

Imposter wrote: »

I agree with the previous poster. Where in the rules does it say that declaring a false hand is against the rules. I was under the impression that the cards speak. In saying that though the conduct afterwards was out of order even though in reality the dealer should have had the cards in the muck.

I think the problem might be that there isn't a defined set of rules.

I don't think saying 'if you call this bet I'm going to wait for you outside and kick your ass' is prohibited either.

I wonder would the angle shooters do it at a TV table? I don't mean speech play but something like trying to falsely declare your hand and wait for someone to muck.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Hitman Actual

The problem with saying that there isn't a defined rule regarding mis-declared hands is that there is a defined rule for when the cards go in the muck. Using a badly defined rule to cause someone to fall foul of an accepted rule is a disgrace.

DeVore

So far so good but lets keep it depersonalised. It will generate more light then heat that way.

DeV.

Washout

Its all about what your morals are for the game.
like life we all have differant morals and one persons interpretation will be differant to anothers.

Would a players charter ever be acceptable to people. This would contain a list of items which would be deemed as being unacceptable at the table as poker players see it.

ionapaul

Washout wrote: »

Its all about what your morals are for the game.
like life we all have differant morals and one persons interpretation will be differant to anothers.

Would a players charter ever be acceptable to people. This would contain a list of items which would be deemed as being unacceptable at the table as poker players see it.

I think it would be very hard to get agreement regarding a players charter for the very reason you point out in your first sentence: every player has different morals. Some people are quite upfront that they would cheat in order to come out ahead in poker, the vast majority are not of this view.

Maybe we should think about this: if someone, by their actions or intent, goes against what the vast majority of poker players think is fair and ethical, is it acceptable that this is pointed out / commented on / even sanctions applied? The vast majority might be wrong (the tyranny of democracy).

If I think that poker is something that people who bend / break the rules and get away with it should play, why listen to other players or follow some players charter?

I'm not sure myself. I like this thread though!

a147pro

link to recent controversy please

I think angle grinding and speech play, riling opponents, Tony G type stuff is good poker. Making people do what you want them to do, irrespective of your respective holdings is good poker.

so its not black and white its a q of degree

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

kincsem

When I hear speech play I let the guy talk as much as he wants. Most of it is garbage. I just feel sorry for the short stacks who need to see as many hands as possible before they get blinded away.

Blip

"Breaking the rules of poker in an attempt to win a pot that you have no right to is:"

Self explanatory really.

Imposter

lenny_leonard wrote: »

The problem with saying that there isn't a defined rule regarding mis-declared hands is that there is a defined rule for when the cards go in the muck. Using a badly defined rule to cause someone to fall foul of an accepted rule is a disgrace.

If that was in reply to me I agree, what I don't like is the wording of the question in the poll above. Speechplay such as this is not breaking the rules as such but it just shouldn't happen.

Grimebox

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I just could not disagree more.

as much as i hate it i think its excellent poker if you can tilt a player and get them to play predictably and easily exploit them as a result. no?

Intetionally misdeclaring your hand is absolutely awful poker. I hate when people say "two pair" on a paired board if the have, say, a medium pair and is trying to get a newbie to drop a bigger pair

a147pro

Read the allegation now and obviously think misrepresenting your hand to induce a muck is out of order. I might think it justified if the other guy was being a complete cnut and manipulating the rules themselves.

One I've often thought about is calling down a bluff with 3 high, anticipating the other party will muck. Is that angle-grinding?

I used to call string bets and stuff like that to get a free flop but I've stopped now. I just think its wrong to penalise some guy who'se prob nervous and first time in casino etc.. But theres an argument that you might induce all the newbies to start disregarding rules re betting, position, order etc which will make the game a farce.

situtation recently; bets made and called until the river. River two way he checks, player asks how much have you left he turns over his hand before player makes bet. WHen he realised he's fcked up he offers to concede the hand. Other guy has a lesser holding (defaulter doesn't know this) and is asking for a ruling when he offers to split the pot with defaulter who agrees. Fair? Angle grinding?

Another recent hypothetical. Someone string bets or does something out of turn. You hold aces and get involved with a dispute with someone else to act after you cos you want to limp, insist / threaten to call a ruling for the purposes of riling the other guy. He then raises and you come over the top. Angle grinding? I like this kind of play.

Hitman Actual

Imposter wrote: »

If that was in reply to me I agree, what I don't like is the wording of the question in the poll above. Speechplay such as this is not breaking the rules as such but it just shouldn't happen.

It wasn't specifically to you, Imposter; more of a general reply to the posters who think mis-declaring hands is okay because there's no defined rule.

Hitman Actual

Grimebox wrote: »

as much as i hate it i think its excellent poker if you can tilt a player and get them to play predictably and easily exploit them as a result. no?

Intetionally misdeclaring your hand is absolutely awful poker. I hate when people say "two pair" on a paired board if the have, say, a medium pair and is trying to get a newbie to drop a bigger pair

I think you're missing the point. What's being discussed, as I see it, is whether or not it's okay to mis-declare your hand when all the action is complete in order to induce your opponent to muck.

BobSloane

I used to play gaelic football and I was always fairly bad at it. I was ok to catch the ball and I could kick a pass reasonably accurately but my main problem was that I was slow. I played up to minor level and usually played corner back. I stopped playing when I moved away fom home as I was not terribly interested in it and, like I said not very good at it.

From the age of 11 or 12 I was encouarged to sneakily hang onto a corner forwards jersey, stand on his feet when the ball was up the field, verbally abuse him, let him know who's boss etc. I never really bought into it - but then again I never really gave a sh!t about football.

I remember an u14 club game when this guy came on as a sub as corner forward. The lad I had been marking had been taken off as he was playing terribly. Anyway this guy come on, 13 or 14 years old and he's all mouth and shouldering and giving me sly kicks etc. I was just ignoring him. From my recollection we were winning by about 15 points anyway. Anyway after listening to his crap and getting kicked for a few minutes the ball went up the field and I stepped in front of him and caught him a punch right in the solar plexis and winded him. He fell down and started roaring. I mean really bawling. I thought I had seriously hurt him and was slightly freaked out. He got carried off.

I met him after the game and apologised - hitting people was not my bag and I felt bad about it. He said not to worry that he had been looking for it anyway. No doubt the guys training his team had encouraged sly tactics that were outside the rules too.

Poker is very close to sport without actually being a sport. Alot of people who play poker also played sport at some point and maybe had negative methods of manipulating an opponent engrained on them.

Is it cheating for a corner back to pull and drag at a corner forward?Not if he gets away with it! lol.

Is it cheating in soccer to dive for a penalty? Usually people who do are called cheats. But is it cheating in soccer for a player to appeal for a throw-in when he knows the ball touched him last. This is rarely reffered to as cheating but is it technically not like the penalty dive?

Sorry, very rambling and not very relevant. Its rare I reminisce on my early teens lol

phantom_lord

a147pro wrote: »

Is that angle-grinding?

it's angle shooting!

a147pro

lol DIY.

will ring woodies customer care and harass them

Ste05

BobSloane wrote: »

....

We're not talking about cheating, we're talking about angle-shooting and the likes. No more mention of the c word please. Read Dev's post here if anyone hasn't already. EDIT: But the analogy is a good one for discussion IMO

Ste05



*** Mod hat off ***

I personally would also be firmly be in the Angle-shooting is reprehensible and shouldn't be part of the game. Poker should be a Gentlemen's game IMO and in a sport/activity that relies so much on reputation and the likes, I don't see why people would want to try and win by these methods, in the long term it will only negatively affect you.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Grimebox

touché

ocallagh

The poll is a simple question and 6 people have decided it's fair to break the rules in an attempt to win a pot.

Angle shooting is an annoying term which seems to wrap all those actions by players that are against the spirit of the game but aren't actually against the rules. You could draw up 1000 rules and you still wouldn't cover all possibilities.

Take it to the extremes. Is it within the rules that you can't jump up over the table and grab your opponents cards and throw them in the muck. No, it is not. Is that physical act any different to a psychological one which might have the same success rate?

While angle shooting may not technically be cheating, I consider some angle shots to be just as bad if not worse than breaking a rule. Recent events have unfolded and I am shocked that some people are ok with what happened. It is 100% against the spirit of the game. People simply don't do it. It's so bad it doesn't need a rule.

The string betting rule is enforced to stop that particular angle shot. The reason it is there is because it's not such a biggie, nobody really cares about it and before it became a rule it was strife. You can be sure if people starting declaring false hands in an attempt to get others to fold the whole time... it soon would become a rule.

mewso

ocallagh wrote: »

Is it within the rules that you can't jump up over the table and grab your opponents cards and throw them in the muck. No, it is not.

Crap back to the drawing board.

Requiem4adream

ocallagh wrote: »

While angle shooting may not technically be cheating, I consider some angle shots to be just as bad if not worse than breaking a rule. Recent events have unfolded and I am shocked that some people are ok with what happened. It is 100% against the spirit of the game. People simply don't do it. It's so bad it doesn't need a rule.

there would be no "situation" in recent events if cards were turned over at showdown. He could claim to be Jesus or Elvis reborn and declare 6 Aces, it would have been an irrelevance - i really think that's the crux of the matter, if you let your cards speak for themselves there's no issue.

Bending rules is absolutely standard in life. Breaking rules or breaching the spirit of the game is not on but i think given the nature of the game and the objective of the game -to make money - it's unrealistic to expect it not to happen.

You know that bit in football where there's a foul and you have someone waving an imaginary yellow card, "book him ref!". it breaks no implicit rule, it's bending the Unsportsmanlike Conduct rule and certainly breaches the spirit of the game. It leaves a bit of a sour taste and you just think "leave it out man, just play the game". That's the way i feel about poker, although i dont play enough live to have experienced much of it.

RoundTower

I voted for robbery because of the way the poll was worded.

However there are some things that aren't necessarily breaking the rules that are also wrong, these are usually called angles. The punishment for this is usually that the person gets a reputation as a slimy and despicable human being. Word of mouth spreads pretty quickly at the poker table even if everyone is happy and friendly and loving on boards.ie.

Hectorjelly

Requiem4adream wrote: »

there would be no "situation" in recent events if cards were turned over at showdown. He could claim to be Jesus or Elvis reborn and declare 6 Aces, it would have been an irrelevance - i really think that's the crux of the matter, if you let your cards speak for themselves there's no issue.

It would be very unusual for players to turn their hands over at the showdown unless they have to, its only usually in tournaments or absolute beginners who would do that. Perhaps it would be better if it was standard, but it isnt, so you cant critisise Gholi. If he regularly turned his cards face up he is at a disadvantage to everyone else who plays live.

At the end, when someone declares their hand there is a certain amount of respect involved, ie you know and trust the person to not lie. If people regularly lied here then it would just mean the game was slowed down and no-one would ever muck without seeing.

Requiem4adream

Im not criticising him in the slightest, just there would be no furore or argument if he turns over his cards. Would it be that unusual to turn over KK (or any hand) in a 3k pot? as a tourny donk i may be missing something but if i was in a 3k pot that got to showdown i'm pretty sure i'd flip my cards over. If gholi was standing up i presume he intended to leave, and if not i cant see how it affects his table image a whole bunch 1 way or another.

I dont know for sure but i trust what you're saying (:)) that there will be a lot of times as a live cash player that you dont turn over your cards at showdown, but in this particular instance i'd have thought it would be standard to show your hand irrespective of what hand the guy declares.

Gholimoli

i had no reason to turn over my cards.
i have been playign live poker for over 3 years now and i have never once seen some one misdeclare their hand intentionally on the river.

i have seen it happen by mistake but not intentional.

when i ger the confirmation that my hand is no good ,i had no reason to turn over my hand.

i thought i was beat and i was a really upset as he had to have called my reraise with some junk for him to have the str,but i have been outdrawn b4 and to me that was just nother one of them.

i had no intention to leave the table as i had another 1K nearly on the table and i was going to play on.

what happend was simply wrong .
i am quite shocked to see some responces i have to say,ppl actually giving out to me and saying that im at fault for posting this here etc.

all i can say to them is im so glad that i do not know you personally and i consider it my good fortune .

IMO any one at all who finds what happend acceptable,even in the slightest ,and can find some sort of justification for it ,is either an "angle shooter" or has no real morals .

some people have compared this to soccer game etc.
even in sports there is such a thing as fair play and it's often regarded very highly.

people now days are getting punished for diving and other unsportmanship acts.

i read his blog last night.

the things that he him self is admiting to just blew my mind.

he says in one of his posts that he was involved in one pot with some 2 he knew and then when he felt his hand was no good,he gave him kick under the table to let him know that he was really strong.

he says something like "i was letting him think that i was being friendly and wanted to save him money...".

this is betryal of trust .

there is an old Iranian story about this thief(please read the full story before giving out to me for using this word) who is wondering around and is trying to pick his next target.

eventually he finds him self near a public bath some where on some street.

while he is looking for potential targets and for a few pockets to pick ,this blind man comes over to him and goes im sorry to bother you sir,do you mind holding on to my bags and other blongings until i come out of the shower.

the thief does not say anything and before he has a cance to speak the blind man leaves his stuff with the theif and goes to the bath.

a few hours later the blind man comes out and goes back to where he left the thief and finds him there.

the theif is really upset and while he is returning the blind man's blongings he starts giving out to the blind man .
he says you are after keeping me from my work for a long time .

the blind man asks him what he does .
he says he is a thief.

the blind man laughs at him ,and goes yeah right,if you are a thief how come you did not steal my things.

he says,being a thief is my profession but it's not who i am.
you came over to me in trust and asked me as a person if i could look after your things and before i had a chance to say now you had left so i had to stay and look after them for you.

the moral of the story is folks that people can be honorable in any profession and there is honor in everything.

you either have it or you dont.

Lazare

Gholimoli wrote: »

i had no reason to turn over my cards.
i have been playign live poker for over 3 years now and i have never once seen some one misdeclare their hand intentionally on the river.

i have seen it happen by mistake but not intentional.

when i ger the confirmation that my hand is no good ,i had no reason to turn over my hand.

i thought i was beat and i was a really upset as he had to have called my reraise with some junk for him to have the str,but i have been outdrawn b4 and to me that was just nother one of them.

i had no intention to leave the table as i had another 1K nearly on the table and i was going to play on.

what happend was simply wrong .
i am quite shocked to see some responces i have to say,ppl actually giving out to me and saying that im at fault for posting this here etc.

all i can say to them is im so glad that i do not know you personally and i consider it my good fortune .

IMO any one at all who finds what happend acceptable,even in the slightest ,and can find some sort of justification for it ,is either an "angle shooter" or has no real morals .

some people have compared this to soccer game etc.
even in sports there is such a thing as fair play and it's often regarded very highly.

people now days are getting punished for diving and other unsportmanship acts.

i read his blog last night.

the things that he him self is admiting to just blew my mind.

he says in one of his posts that he was involved in one pot with some 2 he knew and then when he felt his hand was no good,he gave him kick under the table to let him know that he was really strong.

he says something like "i was letting him think that i was being friendly and wanted to save him money...".

this is betryal of trust .

there is an old Iranian story about this thief(please read the full story before giving out to me for using this word) who is wondering around and is trying to pick his next target.

eventually he finds him self near a public bath some where on some street.

while he is looking for potential targets and for a few pockets to pick ,this blind man comes over to him and goes im sorry to bother you sir,do you mind holding on to my bags and other blongings until i come out of the shower.

the thief does not say anything and before he has a cance to speak the blind man leaves his stuff with the theif and goes to the bath.

a few hours later the blind man comes out and goes back to where he left the thief and finds him there.

the theif is really upset and while he is returning the blind man's blongings he starts giving out to the blind man .
he says you are after keeping me from my work for a long time .

the blind man asks him what he does .
he says he is a thief.

the blind man laughs at him ,and goes yeah right,if you are a thief how come you did not steal my things.

he says,being a thief is my profession but it's not who i am.
you came over to me in trust and asked me as a person if i could look after your things and before i had a chance to say now you had left so i had to stay and look after them for you.

the moral of the story is folks that people can be honorable in any profession and there is honor in everything.

you either have it or you dont.

Well said man, and nice story.

I also found that blog entry a little sickening tbh.

At least we know that kind of sh*t is regarded as sub standard morals by the majority.

Hyzepher

i think recent events have highlighted that certain people don't care what they do in order to win money, it's nothing new but forums like this do tend to bring the obvious attempts to light pretty quickly.

In most live games that i have played in the atmosphere is one of friendliness and harmless banter. Infact, in Dublin there is a strong sense of community and people tend to find themselves playing against others on a regular basis. irregualr antics get noticed very quickly and issues tend to get sorted right away. Constant problems from individuals soon get them a bad name and regulars know who to look out for.

However, with the big influx of new players who are neither familair with the scene or are very focused to turn a profit, angle shooting is becoming more of an issue. In fact some find it hard to distinguish a difference between angle shooting and acceptable deception. I have noticed that the line between them is getting more and more blurred and as numbers increase the worry is that the bad side of the game starts to become the normal practice.

It is always important to highlight issues when they happen even if you are not involved in the hand.

On another note - what do people feel about players leaving the table when their blinds are about to come around and then rejoining after the button passes. In certain clubs there is not posting when you return - would this be considered angle-shooting or unsportsmanship.

a147pro

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How about the next time I play you (hypothetical btw) I refer to you as "****HEAD" every time it is your turn to act? I can also do other really annoying things like making a point to tell you how bad you play and loudly congratulating your opponents every time you lose chips. Expect me to slowroll you horribly also. Will that stick you on tilt? Will it increase the possibility that you overplay a few hands and go after me a little?

WOULD IT BE IN ANYWAY ACCEPTABLE????

clearly not but its a q of degree. is sending a false tell unfair? is telling someone you're ahead, or saying 'call me' when they're contemplating a call unfair? I don't think so. And if someone was acting like your hypothetical at the table would riling them to induce a bad call be unfair?

Ste05

Hyzepher wrote: »

On another note - what do people feel about players leaving the table when their blinds are about to come around and then rejoining after the button passes. In certain clubs there is not posting when you return - would this be considered angle-shooting or unsportsmanship.

I don't think they should be allowed play until the blinds come back to them or they've posted the dead blinds. I always consider the blinds payment for the other 4-8 hands that you get. So if you don't pay, you don't play.

If someone misses one set of blinds because they were having a cigarette or whatever, I'd say fair enough, but not if it was a regular occurance.

Also nice story Gholi.

gosplan

a147pro wrote: »

clearly not but its a q of degree. is sending a false tell unfair? is telling someone you're ahead, or saying 'call me' when they're contemplating a call unfair? I don't think so. And if someone was acting like your hypothetical at the table would riling them to induce a bad call be unfair?

I don't think you can really equate the two. Speech play during the hand, though I don't like it too much, is accepted as part of poker. many excellent players do it to try and gain an edge and that extra bit of knowledge that will influence a call/fold decision on eeither their part or theri opponents part.

I would put the debated situation on another level as the player had lost. He played the hand poorly and lost 1.5K. The money was in, the river was down, and the hand was over!

He then tried to employ some kind of underhanded subterfuge to sneak himself 3K that had nothing to do with poker or poker ability or getting an opponent to make a poor call or fold.

The only thing I can think of that you can equate this to is shortchanging the pot(by 3K!!!). If someone notices, then you pay up and the rules have been abided by, if they don't you get away with it. Not on IMO.

Speech play, riling opponents, faking tells and inducing bluffs - all that is about affecting the way people play. This had nothing to do with how Gholi played the hand.

CaptainNemo

In case anyone interprets my posts as in some way condoning the recent actions being discussed, they are not and I found it unacceptable and it made me angry to read about. I've just been trying to draw a distinction between angle shooting and cheating. If people feel this distinction doesn't exist they are mistaken and some of the people getting angry in this thread and saying "How can people defend this guys actions" and similar statements are attacking a straw man.

What Gholi said about abuse of trust between friends is a separate issue. I suffered this when I was starting out in poker playing with my friend. He got me to fold in a pot by looking me in the eyes and saying "I'm just trying to save you money, dude. You're beaten, trust me." I folded and he showed a bluff proudly. I learned a lesson that day and felt quite hurt. He said "When I'm playing poker I'll do or say anything to try and win, don't take it personally," and I tried not to let it affect my friendship with the guy but I couldn't help it. I didn't feel the need to become a different person when I played poker.

I do believe poker players should act with honour, but also be realistic that not everyone is going to be following the same code of honour, and therefore not fold their cards until they've seen their opponent's hand...!

Being dishonourable is not a crime. People have said things like "Well if THIS is allowed then can I just jump over the table and strangle you, or threaten to beat the **** out of you?" Answer: no, you can't, because those things are illegal. We don't need a poker rule to forbid them.

Then there are things which are not illegal, but against the rules (such as carrying aces up your sleeve).

Then there are things that are not against the rules, but dishonourable (such as deliberately misdeclaring your hand).

The last may be equally as morally bad as the first two if not more so, but it is not the SAME.