Ridiculous Rule Question Type Thing

mdwexford

Is there a rule in tournament poker that says the dealer is not meant to count the pot when requested by a player??

Do dublin card rooms enforce this rule??

Do dealers on boards enforce this rule when they are dealing??

Thanks

Taxipete29

If its pot limit, the dealer must tell the player whats in the middle if they ask.
Not certain but as far as I know they will tell you for NL cash games but not for tournaments.

Caboose

I think the meaning of the ruling comes from how long it takes to count the pot out and in later stages of a tournament time is a very precious thing as it ticks away to a new level.

If any dealer takes the time to neatly stack a pot instead of just piling the chips in and getting on with the next action do you think they'll get tips in cash games or abuse? It drives me insane when I see it done. Same applies for tournaments due to the clock.

A dealer should always know whats in the pot anyway. It comes with the training. Pot Limit, NL, L it doesnt matter. There are ways to keep track of the pot from preflop all the way to the river. If a dealer is concentrating on the hand like they should then as someone asks what the pot is they should be able to blurt it out without thinking.

My two bits.

strewelpeter

We have had this a couple of times recently.
As Taxipete says in cash games the dealer is supposed to know and be able to tell you the value of the pot.
In Tourneys there was a ruling in the SE recently that the dealer was allowed to count the pot and tell the player who asked. The general consensus was that a player should know what is in the pot themselves and shouldn't have to ask. They should be allowed to have the pot shuffled in order to allow a rough count but it was also felt that if it made things much faster then if the dealer knows the size of the pot then just get it over with.

Culchie

strewelpeter wrote: »

We have had this a couple of times recently.
As Taxipete says in cash games the dealer is supposed to know and be able to tell you the value of the pot.
In Tourneys there was a ruling in the SE recently that the dealer was allowed to count the pot and tell the player who asked. The general consensus was that a player should know what is in the pot themselves and shouldn't have to ask. They should be allowed to have the pot shuffled in order to allow a rough count but it was also felt that if it made things much faster then if the dealer knows the size of the pot then just get it over with.

Dealer is allowed to spread the chips and make it easy as possible, but not tell player of actual count.

Ruling is there (AFAIK) because the counting of a pot is an element of skill, i.e The Player should know what's in, if he doesn't then it's his 'tough'. Why should the dealer help any player over another player?

Bit like in golf ... why aren't the pros allowed go round in a buggy car ?.... because the stamina factor is one element of the overall sport.

Ace2007

yea i brought this up ages ago - as there is a rule somewhere that states in NL tournaments the dearler cannot tell you whats in the middle, however in the fitz they seem to do it anyway, was in CHL's the other day and player ask and player was refused....

Tar.Aldarion

Culchie wrote: »

Dealer is allowed to spread the chips and make it easy as possible, but not tell player of actual count.

That's the rule as far as I know it.

kakak1

To my knowledge it is probably down to the dealer / house. I have seen all of the above been used.

I would think a player should know how much is in the pot at all times and this is part of the strategy of the game. However it would also be helpful if the dealer stacked the chips neatly so that either the player or the dealer could do a quick tally.

Again it is a contentious issue just like many others in our game and I agree with Neil Kelly (and I don't often do that) it is time for a commission to be set up once and for all and introduce a set of standard rules for Ireland at least.

NickyOD

I would imagine the reason why the dealer is instructed not to tell a player how much is in the middle is because a) it influences that players decision and b) the dealer can sometimes get it wrong. So if the dealer just spreads the chips for a player to count the pot, that leaves all the responsibility and decision making with the player. Pretty simple really and I'd like to see this rule enforced.

In the cash games in Vegas asking the dealer how much is in the pot is a big no-no.

nicnicnic

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote: »

A dealer is only meant to count the pot if requested by the player . He should not say the bet until player asks how much. Of course the dealer has to count the pot if requested by the player in my opinion ..

Neill

i don't think the dealer is allowed to count the pot even when asked. he can spread the chips and that's about it. ATM in this country I think many clubs started in a ad-hoc fashion and experts were in short supply on all sides, players and stakeholders. Thus many regional rules will have become the norm. I'd say this is the case regarding asking the dealer for a chip count of a pot because it seems rather stupid that u cant

Macspower

I think the no counting rule is for NL cash only?

In a tourney the dealer will count the pot if asked.... or count the opps all in if asked...

In PL it's pretty obvious that the dealer has to tell you the pot..

I remember the worst ruling I've ever been involved in was in the Red Cow while the tourney under previous management.. 4 left in the tourney when this happens

I announced all in as I pushed in my chips and the BB asked the dealer "how much is it" the dealer counts and says 28k and the blinds are 6k/12k.. the BB says call instantly and puts his chips in and I say "theres way more then that in it" and the dealer says "ohh yeah.. the whites are 5k chips.....it's 48k" at which point the bb says he doesn't want to call and takes back his extra and wants to surrender his 12k blind instead....

the ruling is called for and it should have been obvious I thought... the dealer made a mistake and miscounted and the bb acted on that info and called the 28k My opinion is he should have been allowed to take back his chips and make the decision based on my 48k all in....?

Ruling was that my bet was now 28k and that the BB had called the 28k and i was given back 20k... i protested and wasn't happy but was overruled..... I have JJ and flop comes Q high and I ship it and his Q9 stays good.....

Maybe a good reason that the dealer shouldn't count

nicnicnic

I came across it at least twice in tournaments during the summer in Vegas where they wouldn't count the pot.

mdwexford

I only posted this to see how many people know the full extent of this rule.
A dealer is not supposed to count the pot whether asked or not, end of story. I have never seen a dealer count the pot in the SE, most players just ask for it to be spread anyway and not counted. Nicky is also correct about Vegas, in Wynn and Venetian i saw dealers refuse to count the pot in tourneys. In most smaller card rooms in Ireland dealers count it no problem, presumably because most of them dont know even half the rules, i generally dont care about this but i got berated yesterday at a table for refusing to count a pot for a player.
It was even a supposed TD who was doing the majority of the complaining.

Im still interested to know if dealers like goodluck2me, Roundtower and others enforce this rule when they are dealing tourneys??

Goodluck2me

Macspower wrote: »

I think the no counting rule is for NL cash only?

In a tourney the dealer will count the pot if asked.... or count the opps all in if asked...

In PL it's pretty obvious that the dealer has to tell you the pot..

I remember the worst ruling I've ever been involved in was in the Red Cow while the tourney under previous management.. 4 left in the tourney when this happens

I announced all in as I pushed in my chips and the BB asked the dealer "how much is it" the dealer counts and says 28k and the blinds are 6k/12k.. the BB says call instantly and puts his chips in and I say "theres way more then that in it" and the dealer says "ohh yeah.. the whites are 5k chips.....it's 48k" at which point the bb says he doesn't want to call and takes back his extra and wants to surrender his 12k blind instead....

the ruling is called for and it should have been obvious I thought... the dealer made a mistake and miscounted and the bb acted on that info and called the 28k My opinion is he should have been allowed to take back his chips and make the decision based on my 48k all in....?

Ruling was that my bet was now 28k and that the BB had called the 28k and i was given back 20k... i protested and wasn't happy but was overruled..... I have JJ and flop comes Q high and I ship it and his Q9 stays good.....

Maybe a good reason that the dealer shouldn't count

Are you sure this is the way things happened?

I remember dealing a hand in the red cow where you pushed all in and said its 28K blinds at 6-12 and DAmo kavanagh said call instantly so i didnt have time to count the chips, and it subsequently turned out to be c45K. This wasnt a dealer error it was the player error and the ruling given was correct that you had to call the 28K and had the option of the extra 12K on the flop.

mdwexford wrote: »

I only posted this to see how many people know the full extent of this rule.
A dealer is not supposed to count the pot whether asked or not, end of story. I have never seen a dealer count the pot in the SE, most players just ask for it to be spread anyway and not counted. Nicky is also correct about Vegas, in Wynn and Venetian i saw dealers refuse to count the pot in tourneys. In most smaller card rooms in Ireland dealers count it no problem, presumably because most of them dont know even half the rules, i generally dont care about this but i got berated yesterday at a table for refusing to count a pot for a player.
It was even a supposed TD who was doing the majority of the complaining.

Im still interested to know if dealers like goodluck2me, Roundtower and others enforce this rule when they are dealing tourneys??

I absolutely agree with this and certainly enforce it when I am dealing NL. I never count the pot in NL hold`em as it is one of the skills of the game to track it yourself. If I am dealing Pot limit I will only count the pot if there is a pot sized bet coming for example.

Yesterday pot is around 250 and a player goes all in for 50 on the river and the opponent asks me whats in the pot, i simply spread it. As in this instance it can influence his decision, if iwas to say "ah sure theres 250 in there already PLUS HIS FIFTY!" or some such which ive seen done before too.
There are many poor dealers in Ireland in the local clubs and a few in dublin, mostly croupier cum dealers, which due to a lack of understanding of the game dont know the rationale behind why the rules are such and so make bad decisions. this would be sorted if dealers were trained properly, Id be all for a dealer`s licence which they need to know before they can work.

I also think its incredibly annoying when a dealer stacks the chips along the way as it wastes a serious amount of time and tilts the players.

RoundTower

goodluck2me wrote: »

I absolutely agree with this and certainly enforce it when I am dealing NL. I never count the pot in NL hold`em as it is one of the skills of the game to track it yourself. If I am dealing Pot limit I will only count the pot if there is a pot sized bet coming for example.

I always told people what it was in a PL game if they just wanted to know. I don't know if this was strictly right or wrong. In an NL game I wouldn't and I don't think any dealer should.

Goodluck2me

RoundTower wrote: »

I always told people what it was in a PL game if they just wanted to know. I don't know if this was strictly right or wrong. In an NL game I wouldn't and I don't think any dealer should.

it shouldnt be hard for them to work out if there was a PSB on the previous street for example, but again I think it may affect their decsions somewhat if you lay it out for them.

Another thing which really annoys me when playing is dealers counting an all in bet when someone declares all in without being asked to. It affects decisions, takes up time unnecessarily, and technically the bet is all in not a fixed amount.

5starpool

Dealers are not always trained properly and are left to figure a lot out for themselves, and this is one instance where if they were not particularly instructed then they will count for you. I believe they are not meant to tell a player but I have seen dealers count it and then in the same place different more experienced dealers perhaps, not counting it.

mdwexford

http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/pdfs/wsop.tournament-rules.07.pdf

71. Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will
not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.

Just to clarify the rule for future reference.
I dont like getting berated in front of a whole table when im 100% sure im correct.

Macspower

goodluck2me wrote: »

Are you sure this is the way things happened?

I remember dealing a hand in the red cow where you pushed all in and said its 28K blinds at 6-12 and DAmo kavanagh said call instantly so i didnt have time to count the chips, and it subsequently turned out to be c45K. This wasnt a dealer error it was the player error and the ruling given was correct that you had to call the 28K and had the option of the extra 12K on the flop.

are you sure you were the dealer? I thought it was a blonde chap? or were you dying your hair then? Wasn't my understanding of it anyway...but nevermind.....

I think the rule of not counting is correct but most dealers do it I think although they shouldn't..

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Sorry Mick i misread this and thought u were on about the raise and player can ask how much ? The total pot is all in the skill and watching the game .Prob is rules are different everywhere

Our Rule is Big Slick Events

20. Dealers will not influence the betting ,Players are entitled to be informed of the pot in pot limit games only.Dealers will not count the pot in No Limit Games


W.S.O.P Rules

71.Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will
not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Macspower wrote: »

I think the rule of not counting is correct but most dealers do it I think although they shouldn't..

Agreed mac thats the prob and then players get used to it

Jesus Wept

mdwexford wrote: »

I only posted this to see how many people know the full extent of this rule.
A dealer is not supposed to count the pot whether asked or not, end of story. I have never seen a dealer count the pot in the SE, most players just ask for it to be spread anyway and not counted. Nicky is also correct about Vegas, in Wynn and Venetian i saw dealers refuse to count the pot in tourneys. In most smaller card rooms in Ireland dealers count it no problem, presumably because most of them dont know even half the rules, i generally dont care about this but i got berated yesterday at a table for refusing to count a pot for a player.
It was even a supposed TD who was doing the majority of the complaining.

Im still interested to know if dealers like goodluck2me, Roundtower and others enforce this rule when they are dealing tourneys??

You were dead right.

On a side note, I've had a dealer refuse to even spread the pot. Now that was infuriating.

Keith186

If that's the case and they refuse to count the chips I know what I'd do.
Count them myself and take my time, then they mightn't enforce it next time.

Jesus Wept

Keith186 wrote: »

If that's the case and they refuse to count the chips I know what I'd do.
Count them myself and take my time, then they mightn't enforce it next time.

Good luck with that, you can't touch the pot.

You'd be shown the door in most places, I hope.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Keith186 wrote: »

If that's the case and they refuse to count the chips I know what I'd do.
Count them myself and take my time, then they mightn't enforce it next time.

Penalty 20 mins and final warning if pot is touched with Big slick

Goodluck2me

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote: »

Penalty 20 mins and final warning if pot is touched with Big slick

no way would you actually enforce that. I am yet to see a time penalty in any game ive played live.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

goodluck2me wrote: »

no way would you actually enforce that. I am yet to see a time penalty in any game ive played live.

Would u bet on that Joe . U are sin binned . I have given plenty of penalties in the past .

Ask the lads with us i have given alot of penalties . 20 mins was the biggest for two players ina heated argument at a final table i took them off for 20 mins and told them anymore of it and they were out .

U comin to Waterford Bud ? And are u dealing EPT ? im up tm

nicnicnic

goodluck2me wrote: »

no way would you actually enforce that. I am yet to see a time penalty in any game ive played live.

I know one well known player who has received at least three time penalties at big slick events

dannydiamond

The player doing the "berating" was me,I was not involved in the pot but wanted this point cleared up for future reference

"I dont like getting berated in front of a whole table when im 100% sure im correct"

When asked about this mick you said it was only your opinion,but you have dealt these tournies all summer and have counted pots many times when asked by players,which made your refusal in this instance seem quite frankly,odd.

"Our Rule is Big Slick Events

20. Dealers will not influence the betting ,Players are entitled to be informed of the pot in pot limit games only.Dealers will not count the pot in No Limit Games"

This was a "Big Slick Event" and when the TD was called for his opinion I was told "its not our rule"

mdwexford

dannydiamond wrote: »

The player doing the "berating" was me,I was not involved in the pot but wanted this point cleared up for future reference

"I dont like getting berated in front of a whole table when im 100% sure im correct"

When asked about this mick you said it was only your opinion,but you have dealt these tournies all summer and have counted pots many times when asked by players,which made your refusal in this instance seem quite frankly,odd.

"Our Rule is Big Slick Events

20. Dealers will not influence the betting ,Players are entitled to be informed of the pot in pot limit games only.Dealers will not count the pot in No Limit Games"

This was a "Big Slick Event" and when the TD was called for his opinion I was told "its not our rule"

No i did not Danny.

I said it was a rule, you said you thought is was a stupid rule or something to that effect, i said you're entitled to your opinion. You are wrong about me counting pots in these situations anytime recently and i cannot even recall another time where i have been asked to count a pot in Tramore.

You said last night that it wasnt a rule and its not enforced anywhere and proceeded to ridicule me and moan on the other table which i thought was out of order.

As for the TD not knowing the rule thats nothing to do with me.

RoundTower

mdwexford wrote: »

http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/pdfs/wsop.tournament-rules.07.pdf

71. Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will
not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.

Just to clarify the rule for future reference.
I dont like getting berated in front of a whole table when im 100% sure im correct.

you're only "100% correct" in a cardroom that uses those rules. As already mentioned cardrooms in Ireland use all kinds of quirky rules, and it wouldn't surprise me at all for a cardroom manager to say "of course you can get the dealer to count the pot for you, that's always been the rule here".

dannydiamond

Everything I stated in my previous post is fact

RoundTower

I mean, if "The TD didn't know the rule", then it is not a rule. And it would be bad of the TD to make it a rule in the middle of the game even if he knew you were right, it's important to be consistent.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

dannydiamond wrote: »

The player doing the "berating" was me,I was not involved in the pot but wanted this point cleared up for future reference

"I dont like getting berated in front of a whole table when im 100% sure im correct"

When asked about this mick you said it was only your opinion,but you have dealt these tournies all summer and have counted pots many times when asked by players,which made your refusal in this instance seem quite frankly,odd.

"Our Rule is Big Slick Events

20. Dealers will not influence the betting ,Players are entitled to be informed of the pot in pot limit games only.Dealers will not count the pot in No Limit Games"

This was a "Big Slick Event" and when the TD was called for his opinion I was told "its not our rule"

From the way i heard dan Richie said he will have to check as he and was open and honest that he was caught on the hop ..Its another one of those rules that need to be clarified in Ireland

pokerkingsni

34 Pot Size Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.

Thats the TDA's take on it.

MadsL

Got a certain "X"s ire for not telling him the pot once in a NL tourney. In fairness I told him to stop messing, as he was a bugger for the 'rules' and well known for trying to 'tilt' the dealer - god knows what purpose that served. Truth be told I had no idea what was in the pot other than counting, as I probably wasn't paying enough attention, I probably could have rewound the action on the flop, but by the turn and river I'd lost count. But I knew well enough he'd no right to be told the pot total.

Goodluck2me

nicnicnic wrote: »

I know one well known player who has received at least three time penalties at big slick events

I am very surprised as i say i am yet to see it enforced, if so then wp Neill.

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote: »

Would u bet on that Joe . U are sin binned . I have given plenty of penalties in the past .

Ask the lads with us i have given alot of penalties . 20 mins was the biggest for two players ina heated argument at a final table i took them off for 20 mins and told them anymore of it and they were out .

U comin to Waterford Bud ? And are u dealing EPT ? im up tm

Yeah im Dealing EPT and coming to Waterford, probably dealing there too.

kakak1

You are always going to have a problem when you have the same dealers dealing at different events where there are different rules in place.

Just because one orgainiser allows something to happen / not to happen doesn't make it a rule. Also situations arise which a TD may not have seen before and in fairness there are so many rules, disputes situations it is unfair to expect a TD to know them all. There are few TD's in Ireland who IMO would be expert at all the rules / regulations.

I would say to Danny that because something is the norm does not make it correct and as I mentioned to you I felt Mick was correct in his ruling but maybe incorrect in adhering to it seeing as the majority of dealers would have done the opposite.

I wish we had more dealers of Micks ability who would adhere to the correct rules. Standards in dealing need to be raised and players arguing because a rule is not suitable or the norm is really not the way forward.

Danny, I accept your point that the TD did say it was not one of their rules & then Mr Kelly, Director, pointing out the rule to us, it's all very confusing and will be until a standard set of rules is set up.

But I can't understand why people get so upset at a game of poker for such a small matter that at the end of the day makes no difference. If the dealer won't count the pot, count it yourself, if you're not involved stay out of it.

dannydiamond

Dave, I am involved as I'm at the table.

taliban

goodluck2me wrote: »

no way would you actually enforce that. I am yet to see a time penalty in any game ive played live.

i was sinbined ...........twice:)myown fault though:mad:

mdwexford

I did not say it was my opinion, why would i when i know its a rule.

You said it wasnt a rule and no-where enforces it, you were wrong.

taliban

kakak1 wrote: »

You are always going to have a problem when you have the same dealers dealing at different events where there are different rules in place.

Just because one orgainiser allows something to happen / not to happen doesn't make it a rule. Also situations arise which a TD may not have seen before and in fairness there are so many rules, disputes situations it is unfair to expect a TD to know them all. There are few TD's in Ireland who IMO would be expert at all the rules / regulations.

I would say to Danny that because something is the norm does not make it correct and as I mentioned to you I felt Mick was correct in his ruling but maybe incorrect in adhering to it seeing as the majority of dealers would have done the opposite.

I wish we had more dealers of Micks ability who would adhere to the correct rules. Standards in dealing need to be raised and players arguing because a rule is not suitable or the norm is really not the way forward.

Danny, I accept your point that the TD did say it was not one of their rules & then Mr Kelly, Director, pointing out the rule to us, it's all very confusing and will be until a standard set of rules is set up.

But I can't understand why people get so upset at a game of poker for such a small matter that at the end of the day makes no difference. If the dealer won't count the pot, count it yourself, if you're not involved stay out of it.

i think people get upset even over the smallest of things is because no matter where u play the rules change[depending on whose dealing]nearly every nite through no fault of the dealers.i think a full set of rules should be posted in every card room[blazing aces have done this recently..thanks to brendan and it has stopped all rows]. maybe bsp could post their rules on boards ahead of the woodlands events as i think a lot of the readers will be going

taliban

taliban wrote: »

i think people get upset even over the smallest of things is because no matter where u play the rules change[depending on whose dealing]nearly every nite through no fault of the dealers.i think a full set of rules should be posted in every card room[blazing aces have done this recently..thanks to brendan and it has stopped all rows]. maybe bsp could post their rules on boards ahead of the woodlands events as i think a lot of the readers will be going

just seen bsp have a full set of rules posted .that should stop a few rows ,well done

mdwexford

Heres a link to Big Slicks tourney rules

http://www.bigslickevents.net/?page=rules

I agree that it is awkward with every place having different rules and in some cases dealers not knowing all the rules. A lot of it is down to not training in dealers properly and if the player commision that Neill posted about does go ahead it will be a good thing for all concerned.

taliban

mdwexford wrote: »

Heres a link to Big Slicks tourney rules

http://www.bigslickevents.net/?page=rules

I agree that it is awkward with every place having different rules and in some cases dealers not knowing all the rules. A lot of it is down to not training in dealers properly and if the player commision that Neill posted about does go ahead it will be a good thing for all concerned.

poker has got to big in ireland ,for not to have a player commision.there is so much money involved it is not an amature sport.your either a pro or a semi pro there is no in between.for instance a 50euro tournment provides the winner with a weeks wages.thats no joke to a lot of people , they are playing to make money be it 50 or 10000 euro tourney.i hope neil pushes this cause if anyone can get something done he ll give it a good shot

mormank

this may be a very silly question but do all casinos in vegas have the same set of rules and enforce them all the same??

taliban

mormank wrote: »

this may be a very silly question but do all casinos in vegas have the same set of rules and enforce them all the same??

think so.they are regulated by a gaming commison

mormank

I also think that some rules are almost pointless to try and enfroce as a dealer because so many players who play the game in ireland havent a clue of the rules. not even because they are different everywhere, just because they dont know them, and as a dealer you would get into some situations that perhaps you would be better not getting yourself into.

mormank

taliban wrote: »

think so.they are regulated by a gaming commison

cool! imagine that in ireland..that'd be sweet! so many pointless 'discussions' avoided

taliban

mormank wrote: »

I also think that some rules are almost pointless to try and enfroce as a dealer because so many players who play the game in ireland havent a clue of the rules. not even because they are different everywhere, just because they dont know them, and as a dealer you would get into some situations that perhaps you would be better not getting yourself into.

i agree. a player should take the time to do a cheak on the rules instead of having a go at the dealers all the time

kakak1

dannydiamond wrote: »

Dave, I am involved as I'm at the table.

you'll go mental before your time if you keep getting involved in minor details like that, let it ride, let it float, smoke a joint, try yoga, meditate...........