Provisional licence rules deferred until 30 June 2008!!!

pyrogenx

Minister Noel Dempsey said on RTÉ's This Week programme that he was deferring the introduction of the accompanied driver provision until 30 June 2008.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1028/roadsafety.html


The bottom line is that when given 9 months notice, nobody will have an excuse to drive on their own and everybody that may not be able to pass their tests until then WILL be able to make alterternative arrangements.

It is both reasonable and addiquit, also it will definatly have a hughly possitive impact on the number of provissional drivers in Ireland.

Thanks to everybody that contributed in making this happen!!!!!!!!

Martin

Mr.Micro

I suspect before the 30th june 2008 we will be exactly in the same position as now .People will still complain .It will take years to sort if ever .

cyclopath2001

pyrogenx wrote: »

The bottom line is that when given 9 months notice, nobody will have an excuse to drive on their own and everybody that may not be able to pass their tests until then WILL be able to make alterternative arrangements.

But, I assume that holders of provisional licences other than a 2nd one, must still, as is the current law, be accompanied?

Hobbes

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I suspect before the 30th june 2008 we will be exactly in the same position as now .People will still complain .It will take years to sort if ever .

I would most likely think not. I think pretty much everyone was in agreement that while the laws had to come in, giving people 5 days notice was a bit of a joke.

What does he mean by "tests on demand" ?

But, I assume that holders of provisional licences other than a 2nd one, must still, as is the current law, be accompanied?

Yes.

mikemac

Seems fair and now noone has no excuse.
And if you are smart you apply to 2/3 test centres so you get even more of a chance.

But goals expand to fit the time and come next June, we'll still hear people moaning.

Was this planned all along and the 5 day notice just a scare tactic to force people into action?
400,000 provisionals drivers and only 130,000 had applied before last week.
I'd like to know what the other 270,000 were doing?

peasant

pyrogenx wrote: »

Thanks to everybody that contributed in making this happen!!!!!!!!

You're joking, right?

I don't normally wear a tinfoil hat and hide in the cellar, mumbling 'conspiracy' to myself ...but this whole affair is the biggest and cheekiest political deceipt I've ever seen.

I'm of the firm belief that this was planned to happen like this all along.
Publicise excessive pay increase, overshadow the whole thing with a massive public outcry about something else, roll on the bank holiday, retract the silly bit of otherwise good legislation, bask in knowledge of 'having done something' about road safety, enjoy rest of bank holiday, Tuesday everything back to normal.

Pay increase, what pay increase?


I wonder what road safey measure(s) will be announced come budget day ....


EDIT:

At least I hope that this was the plan all along, because it would credit our governement with some brains ...an option that the alternative explanation does not leave open.

Goldenquick

I'm glad they saw sense, I'm not a driver nor do I want to be one but I could see the hardships this was going to cause to so many people.

luckat

What's everyone shouting about? The purpose of a provisional licence is to allow you to drive with an instructor, to learn how to drive properly before you take your test.

It was never intended as a licence to drive on the roads as if fully licensed - and only became so by default because of the Government's shameful inefficiency in not hiring enough driver testers to test people and pass them or fail them fast.

sdanseo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

But, I assume that holders of provisional licences other than a 2nd one, must still, as is the current law, be accompanied?

Yes, legally speaking. It will continue to be unenforced though, just an unwritten rule. Stupid really.

cathy01

oh I see, do the L dirvers thing so no one gives out about the pay increas.Just like a decoy!!!
shame on you bertie, tried to apply on line to do my test again, but it wouldnt let me.
cathy

Hal1

The driving test website is still down. I have held of applying since my last test cause my NCT is overdue, but the car was of the road for a while.

zexstream

Spineless Stupid Goverment.

I agree with the above poster that it was all a cover up to overshadow the takinn the P Payrises they have just awarded themselves.

In the meantime more young fools will think they can drive on the roads without passing their test and people will Die.

Well down Noel and Co, Well Done.

Healio

The way you apply for a test should also be changed, they should make it like when you try and book a flight,

- Pick a centre,
- Pick a day,
- Pick the time slot
- Book Test

sdanseo

Healio wrote: »

The way you apply for a test should also be changed, they should make it like when you try and book a flight,

- Pick a centre,
- Pick a day,
- Pick the time slot
- Book Test

Exactly, comparable to the NCT online system - the only part of the entire Dept. of Transport that seems to work fairly well.

Most politicians in this government are utter morons. Sorry, felt that had to be said.

SeanW

Yes, a decoy move sounds like a possibility.

There are 120000-125000 2nd provisional licenseholders.

That's 3% of the TOTAL Irish population.

Put them all off the road with 4 days notice - how utterly retarded.

Like a poster above, I'm kinds hoping this was a decoy, the alternative being that they're all a bigger bunch of gob****es than I thought.

dudara

sdonn_1 wrote: »

Exactly, comparable to the NCT online system - the only part of the entire Dept. of Transport that seems to work fairly well.

That's because the NCT is outsourced to SGS - a private body

lostexpectation

luckat wrote: »

What's everyone shouting about? The purpose of a provisional licence is to allow you to drive with an instructor, to learn how to drive properly before you take your test.

It was never intended as a licence to drive on the roads as if fully licensed - and only became so by default because of the Government's shameful inefficiency in not hiring enough driver testers to test people and pass them or fail them fast.

exactly

Boggle

pyrogenx wrote:

Thanks to everybody that contributed in making this happen!!!!!!!!

I have to agree with peasant. They had no intention of following through on this as it was just convenient timing to deflect attention from their pay rises.

FF may be spineless, greedy and incompetent but my god are they good at the 2 vital skills that matter in politics; misdirection and spin!
Pity the opposition are so useless cos, sure as I sit here, the public are definitely not clever enough to understand whats going on - and those that might are so fearful of another recession that they would vote for Satan himself just to make sure that they can pay the now astronomical mortgage they are saddled with!

They were never going to do something which would force people out of work cos then those people might actually have the time to look up and smell the roses and actually make waves.

Maybe a recession might do this country some good and force a little cop on...

BIG-SLICK-POKER

I still think that this was a disguised way on deflecting attention away from the increased salaries that the goverment officials recieved last week , I mean come on Bertie Ahearn gets a pay increase ,He wont forget this going into his bank account if it does not happen i bet u . This man earns more than the U.S President does , In my opinion we are all the same because nobody stands up and says anything when it happens

Neill K

pyrogenx

sdonn_1 wrote: »

Exactly, comparable to the NCT online system - the only part of the entire Dept. of Transport that seems to work fairly well.

Actually, i rang for an NCT appointment during the summer. They told me that there was no appointments available in their schedule, so they said that they're going to send me a text message once they get a date for me. For about 2 weeks nothing happened, rang them again and they gave me a date for 2 months later!

I needed my NCT in order to do another driving test and the last time one they failed me because i didn't have an irish NCT. The car was actually imported from the uk and i did have 8 MOT left on it. Fair enough, it says in the rules that you must have a valid NCT. But nevertheless, i failed my test without even being able to see how would do and improve on my mistakes if i was going to make any.
The point i'm making is that the NCT waiting times (at least around here) have yet to improve.


Other than that, i'll have to agree with those that said that this just a cover up story, as well as i too believe it was planned this way all along so they don't have people protesting in kildare street at the end of June08. They're not stupid!

mikemac

pyrogenx wrote: »

Other than that, i'll have to agree with those that said that this just a cover up story, as well as i too believe it was planned this way all along so they don't have people protesting in kildare street at the end of June08. They're not stupid!

Correct, they definitly aren't stupid.
But come June 08, there will be threads here about people still haven't sat the test despite getting 7 months notice.
Or maybe they will fail and demand to be let on the road. I'm not so interested in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd licence holders-what about the (mainly) women in their 30's upwards who had no intention of doing a test and on their 5th, 6th, etc?

I can picture RTE now.
"I drive my <insert relative/friend> to cancer care and the government won't let me drive so now they will die"
Ok a bit OTT, but RTE were using similar examples last week.

cyclopath2001

dudara wrote: »

That's because the NCT is outsourced to SGS - a private body

Or because the NCT is about testing machines (easily fixed), not people.

cranmore

Originally Posted by dudara
That's because the NCT is outsourced to SGS - a private body

maybe the whole government should be outsourced.

pyrogenx

cranmore wrote: »

Originally Posted by dudara
That's because the NCT is outsourced to SGS - a private body

maybe the whole government should be outsourced.

LOL that was a good one

Healio

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Or because the NCT is about testing machines (easily fixed), not people.

No doubting what the two tests do, its just that if a person can pick a date, pick a centre and then a timeslot, then there shouldn't be a reason to cancel said test, because said person has applied for date, took it off (work if necessary) so they can sit it, basically everyone knows where they stand. Should be no reason for cancellations!!

Hotblack Desiato

There should be a hefty deposit when booking a driving test, which you lose if you don't bother to turn up. Also every provisional licence holder should have to sit at least one test a year.

NewDubliner

ninja900 wrote: »

There should be a hefty deposit when booking a driving test, which you lose if you don't bother to turn up.

Better again, how about some financial inducement to pass? A big deposit, refunded on passing.

Mrs Roy Keane

First of all the cost of the test is very expensive not everyone has Bertie's salary it should be reduced. Also what about the full licence drivers who are causing accidents nothing happens them. I think they need to increase the age for driving to 21.

What about the people living in the countryside that need their cars to get the work but don't have a qualified driver to accompany them?

Hotblack Desiato

NewDubliner wrote: »

Better again, how about some financial inducement to pass? A big deposit, refunded on passing.

But then the eejits who go around saying "it's all a money racket, they fail people on purpose" would actually have some substance to their claim.
As it is, there's no way the test fee can possibly cover the costs of carrying out the tests and administering the waiting list.

Mrs Roy Keane wrote:

First of all the cost of the test is very expensive not everyone has Bertie's salary it should be reduced.

Are you serious? You almost certainly wouldn't fill your tank for €38. If you can afford to buy, maintain, NCT, insure and tax a car you can certainly afford the test. Proper lessons would cost you nearly that much per hour :rolleyes:

Also what about the full licence drivers who are causing accidents nothing happens them.

You're pretty much right, but that's another issue, and no excuse to let provisional licence holders drive around untested.

I think they need to increase the age for driving to 21

Why? If they are insured, licensed, sober, accompanied (or pass their test) just like anyone else should be, why should you discriminate against them on the grounds of their age alone?

What about the people living in the countryside that need their cars to get the work but don't have a qualified driver to accompany them?

Please. Not the "laws should not apply in poor old Rural Oireland" guff again.
Just because you live in a city, it doesn't make accompanied driving convenient.
In fact, it's not supposed to be convenient, that's the point.
Do you really think that it's fine and dandy to have people who have never passed, or never even taken, a driving test to be going around by themselves?

Mrs Roy Keane

ninja900 wrote: »

Why? If they are insured, licensed, sober, accompanied (or pass their test) just like anyone else should be, why should you discriminate against them on the grounds of their age alone?


Please. Not the "laws should not apply in poor old Rural Oireland" guff again.
Just because you live in a city, it doesn't make accompanied driving convenient.
In fact, it's not supposed to be convenient, that's the point.
Do you really think that it's fine and dandy to have people who have never passed, or never even taken, a driving test to be going around by themselves?

It seems to be suggested that its the younger people causing the most road accidents so if they increased the age limit it may help

I not just talking about rural Ireland but not everyone will have an full licence driver to accompany them.

Nerves can hit people doing the test and some fail because of this. I think they should take driving history (as the amount of years driving plus no accidents also into account)

Hotblack Desiato

Mrs Roy Keane wrote: »

It seems to be suggested that its the younger people causing the most road accidents so if they increased the age limit it may help

Hmm, ban young drivers - no young driver accidents!
But why stop there - ban cars - no car accidents!
OR we could tackle the driver training and testing problem...

I not just talking about rural Ireland but not everyone will have an full licence driver to accompany them.

Letting them out on their own isn't the answer. The waiting list does really need to be sorted out too though. In other countries people who haven't passed their test wouldn't dream of driving on their own, and rightly so. We may as well not bother with driving licences at all if anyone can drive around on their own without having passed a test.

Nerves can hit people doing the test and some fail because of this.

Everyone is nervous to some extent. Driving can be stressful and it's important to be able to handle that. Proper instruction helps a lot.

I think they should take driving history (as the amount of years driving plus no accidents also into account)

So people with years of driving around on a provisional should get an easier driving test? that's just mad! If they are such good drivers, why didn't they pass earlier?

Tootins

I think the Government focusing only on the actual testing part is totally wrong. The whole Learning Approach needs to be overhauled, the actual testing is just a small part of learning to drive.
Im on my first provisional, I've had it now for close to 10months, I have had 25 driving lessons (with a proper instructor) and then I drove supervised for 6 months with my dad or my brother in the car. What else can I do now? My schedule with work means that I'm not in a position to get my dad to bring me out driving every night and as a result how can I gain experience? I cant afford to pay for an instructor to come out driving with me a couple of times a week. A one hour lesson already costs 35euro!
I applied for my test, long before the whole controversy exploded. I rang up the driving test people yesterday and they told me they were nowhere near processing my application AND then I was told the people on their second provisional license would get priority over me because all their applications have to done before June 30th. What sort of system is that?? I need my full-license just as much as anyone else does and I was actually prepared to get up and organise my test so I could get it as soon as possible.
I'm so nervous now about being pulled over by the police so the only compromise I can come to is driving to and from work with my dad driving in his car behind me!
The whole system is a mess. Getting through the backlog in driving tests, in my opinion is still not going to make a difference to our road deaths! All you have to do is iron out your bad habits for a 40min driving session and then you can go back to driving the way you are used to!

Mrs Roy Keane

Tootins wrote: »

I think the Government focusing only on the actual testing part is totally wrong. The whole Learning Approach needs to be overhauled, the actual testing is just a small part of learning to drive.
Im on my first provisional, I've had it now for close to 10months, I have had 25 driving lessons (with a proper instructor) and then I drove supervised for 6 months with my dad or my brother in the car. What else can I do now? My schedule with work means that I'm not in a position to get my dad to bring me out driving every night and as a result how can I gain experience? I cant afford to pay for an instructor to come out driving with me a couple of times a week. A one hour lesson already costs 35euro!
I applied for my test, long before the whole controversy exploded. I rang up the driving test people yesterday and they told me they were nowhere near processing my application AND then I was told the people on their second provisional license would get priority over me because all their applications have to done before June 30th. What sort of system is that?? I need my full-license just as much as anyone else does and I was actually prepared to get up and organise my test so I could get it as soon as possible.
I'm so nervous now about being pulled over by the police so the only compromise I can come to is driving to and from work with my dad driving in his car behind me!
The whole system is a mess. Getting through the backlog in driving tests, in my opinion is still not going to make a difference to our road deaths! All you have to do is iron out your bad habits for a 40min driving session and then you can go back to driving the way you are used to!

I feel for you really. No everyone has a qualified driver to accompany them constantly. The government did not think this true fully. I agree the cost of the test and driving lessons is expensive

SeanW

I disagree about the cost of the test - a fill of petrol costs more than that and a driving lesson nearly as much, so I would even be in favour of raising the test fee - IF - it meant that everyone who applied for a test got it within a month.

Zambia

The Irish driving licence system is a joke and always has been.

I know of no other first world country where you can drive away by yourself after failing your test.

Its a shocking system that has been silly for years.

To solve this i think the following should happen

Everyone on a bodgy second provisional must apply for a test by feb 2008.

After feb 2008 a second provisional is the same as a first , the exception being unless you have a confirmed test date cert. Then you may drive as you where till your test.

Should you fail/miss your test you then go back to accompanied driving. If you do not have the inteligence to book a test between now and feb 2008 .

Well then hard luck. Even with the long waiting times everyone shouldbe accomodated

Hotblack Desiato

Mrs Roy Keane wrote: »

I feel for you really. No everyone has a qualified driver to accompany them constantly. The government did not think this true fully. I agree the cost of the test and driving lessons is expensive

This sort of attitude stinks to high heaven to be brutally honest. How many lives have been lost or blighted because people are too cheap to learn how to drive properly? Or just too damn ignorant and lazy.

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, the cost of the test is thirty eight euro, FFS. Driving is a privilege, not a right, anyone who can't be bothered to learn how to exercise that privilege safely should get the hell off the roads.

murphaph

ninja900 wrote: »

This sort of attitude stinks to high heaven to be brutally honest. How many lives have been lost or blighted because people are too cheap to learn how to drive properly? Or just too damn ignorant and lazy.

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, the cost of the test is thirty eight euro, FFS. Driving is a privilege, not a right, anyone who can't be bothered to learn how to exercise that privilege safely should get the hell off the roads.

+1. Driving/riding is indeed a privilege and if one can afford a nice car/bike, one can afford to get proper training of driver/rider and testing of driver/rider and car/bike

Boggle

How many lives have been lost or blighted because people are too cheap to learn how to drive properly?

I don't know. How many? Last I knew, the gardai didn't even keep records of what drivers involved in fatal collisions had provisional licenses.
(while we are talking about actual facts, I'd be interested to know if there were nubers available on how many lives would be saved by reducing the alcohol limits (ie how many fatal accidents are attributable to people with alcohol levels in their system between old and new laws.)


I still think that until they fix the test (ie make it a test rather than a lottery) we will make no difference. As it stands, rubbish drivers pass because they rehearse a course and good driverss fail because the test cannot actually distinguish between good and bad drivers....

Hotblack Desiato

Boggle wrote: »

I don't know. How many? Last I knew, the gardai didn't even keep records of what drivers involved in fatal collisions had provisional licenses.

Notice that I didn't mention passing the test. I said learning to drive properly which should really go beyond what the test demands. It is the bare legal minimum standard of driving skill, after all. Yet here in Ireland we seem to regard it as some sort of pinnacle 40% of drivers don't need to bother even trying to climb.

(while we are talking about actual facts, I'd be interested to know if there were nubers available on how many lives would be saved by reducing the alcohol limits (ie how many fatal accidents are attributable to people with alcohol levels in their system between old and new laws.)

I'd be interested in that too. I strongly suspect the figures would not support a reduction in the limit, but we'll get one anyway :rolleyes:

After all, most drink-drivers are 50%, 100% or even more over the existing limit, so it's no skin off their nose if we reduce it.

I still think that until they fix the test (ie make it a test rather than a lottery) we will make no difference. As it stands, rubbish drivers pass because they rehearse a course and good driverss fail because the test cannot actually distinguish between good and bad drivers....

I'm sorry but this sounds like the sort of lame excuses constantly trotted out by people who have either (a) failed through their own fault or (b) not bothered to apply at all.
No test can be perfect, we can and should try to make it better. But we'd be wasting our time given that up until now, passing the driving test is effectively voluntary. We have to do the provisional licence reforms first, then improve the test.

I haven't been to Motors or Learning to Drive in a while, are they still full of "I failed my test, snot fair" and "How few lessons can I take and be OK to drive on my own, cause I'm a cheap bastard" threads?

Mrs Roy Keane

ninja900 wrote: »

This sort of attitude stinks to high heaven to be brutally honest. How many lives have been lost or blighted because people are too cheap to learn how to drive properly? Or just too damn ignorant and lazy.

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, the cost of the test is thirty eight euro, FFS. Driving is a privilege, not a right, anyone who can't be bothered to learn how to exercise that privilege safely should get the hell off the roads.

Any how many lives have been lost by accidents caused full licenced drivers and/or drunk drivers

SeanW

ninja900 wrote: »

We have to do the provisional licence reforms first, then improve the test.

Why not sort out the driving test system mess fiirst, so that every applicant gets a consistent test within a month, then have license reforms?

I haven't been to Motors or Learning to Drive in a while, are they still full of "I failed my test, snot fair" and "How few lessons can I take and be OK to drive on my own, cause I'm a cheap bastard" threads?

No, "I failed my test" posts are limited to a single carefully managed stickied thread, and most of the threads are for people asking for advice about practical matters on the road, test advice, regulatory affairs and so on.

Hotblack Desiato

Mrs Roy Keane wrote: »

Any how many lives have been lost by accidents caused full licenced drivers and/or drunk drivers

Can you not accept the fact that people need to be taught how to drive properly before they are let loose on the roads.

Dangerous driving is illegal.
Drunk driving is illegal.
Breaking the provisional licence rules is illegal too, but has been ignored for decades, can you justify that?

Hotblack Desiato

SeanW wrote: »

Why not sort out the driving test system mess fiirst, so that every applicant gets a consistent test within a month, then have license reforms?

I was talking about the test standard, not how long it takes. Sorting out the waiting list should be a simple administrative task (yes, yes, I know, insert world's biggest rolleyes icon here)

Mrs Roy Keane

ninja900 wrote: »

Can you not accept the fact that people need to be taught how to drive properly before they are let loose on the roads.

Dangerous driving is illegal.
Drunk driving is illegal.
Breaking the provisional licence rules is illegal too, but has been ignored for decades, can you justify that?

I accept that but what about the full licenced drivers who sit and pass their tests and then that are causing accidents? Or the Politicans or Garda members who drink drive and get no punishment. Its not just provisional drivers causing accidents.

bonkey

Mrs Roy Keane wrote: »

I accept that but what about the full licenced drivers who sit and pass their tests and then that are causing accidents? Or the Politicans or Garda members who drink drive and get no punishment. Its not just provisional drivers causing accidents.

If you are suggesting that we need additional restrictions, which try and clean up crap driving across the board, I'm with you and would guess most people would be too.

If, on the other hand, you're suggesting the new legislation should not be introduced because its imperfect, and doesn't deal with every problem on the road all at once....then I doubt you'll get far with that.