Squat query & ham curl machine

TKD SC

Hi,

I've 2 quick queries:

After building up my knee through bodyweight ex's first, then adding in light weights, I'm now at the stage of adding in squats with some heavier weights. However, the gym I go to has a 35kg wieghts bar as its heaviest. Therefore, if I want to squat any heavier than that I need to use the smith machine (did 80kg on this this morn). So far, I've been just squatting to 90 deg angle, not full squats. Anyway, my q's is: is the smith machine ok to use once I feel that my form is fine, or would I be better just doing more reps with the 35kg bar instead if that is a more natural way of doing squats? (main objective is streghtening vmo muscle). I think 100kg is prob max smith machine can take also in this gym, and 80kg felt grand this morn (did 10 x 3), but not much I can do about this! How much should someone be squatting times their body weight roughly (as something to aim for even)? (I'm 88kg currently, but still in knee rehab phase so dont want to push anything, just curious).

Other query is re the hamstring curl machine (sit on it and pull back legs - opp to knee extension machine) - is there anything wrong with these machines? I've heard bad things re the knee extension machine and dont use that, but didnt know about this ham curl machine. Or am i better using ankle weights while lying on my stomach instead?

Many thanks,

Simon

rubadub

TKD SC wrote: »

the gym I go to has a 35kg wieghts bar as its heaviest.

OMG, name & shame this "gym" please! that is shocking, I cannot understand people paying for memberships in these places, for the same money you could have a home gym with more equipment!. Most will recommend free weights over a machine, but 35kg is nothing! so a machine might be better in that case.

How much should someone be squatting times their body weight roughly

I think 1.5 is a good goal. I am 75kg and am doing 80 currently, only using a dipping belt. Have some more plates on the way so I want to up it to 100kg.

Colin Jackson- the UK olympic hurdler was on TV3 this morning, saying he had knee problems, from hitting hurdles and from squatting too, he said he did 240kg squats.

TKD SC

rubadub wrote: »

OMG, name & shame this "gym" please! that is shocking, I cannot understand people paying for memberships in these places, for the same money you could have a home gym with more equipment!. Most will recommend free weights over a machine, but 35kg is nothing! so a machine might be better in that case.
.

I know its pathetic, but its a gym as part of a tennis club (not that I've played tennis for about 10 yrs! just use the gym there!), so its not really set up for proper weights etc. Some good machines, free wieghts (light ones!) and chin up bar etc and usually pretty quiet, so good for what it is. I might actually query if they can install some heavier free weights...

1.5 body weight goal sounds good. Is it generally 1 x weight for bench, and 2 x weight for deadlift as rough guides?

Any other info re squat / ham curl query much appreciated!

Thanks

rubadub

This is a guide to what you could aim for. It is good in the fact if you are lifting X in benching you can go down the same column and see what your others should roughly be at.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-journal/WLSTANDARDS.pdf

Weights are in lb, and watch out for the correct section, i.e. men/women. Also it refers to 1RM, the max you can lift for 1 rep, so if you use a particular weight for 8 reps you could multiply it by 1.25

There are calculators to approximate this http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html

Also in other threads some objected to/questioned the bit saying

in the tables above, the term "untrained" refers to the expected level of strength in a healthy individual who has not trained on the exercise before but can performit correctly. This represents the minimum level of strength required to maintain a reasonable quality of life in a sedentary individual.

By those standards I expect 90-95% of the population are deemed as not having a "reasonable quality of life". So dont be worried if you cannot reach them.

iascanmore

1.5 bodyweight is also my target. I'm 78kgs and can squat 90kg, I should hit 100 by xmas.

A whole heap of info can be found on the site mentioned above eg for quads check out http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/ThighWt.html#anchor1942303.

I do a lot of lunges - they really hit the spot - even with 35Kgs you'll know all about it. Try 8 * 3 or 10 * 3.

Colm_OReilly

Dude!

Is the smith machine at an angle (the one in Westpark Fitness is, why I can't even fathom)? Stay away from the smith machine. Although the load will move up and down in a straight line you'll lose the feedback you'd get doing free squats, plus your muscles will work differently because of this lack of feedback.

Also, your knee is weakest at 90 degrees, the ligaments that hold it in place are strongest at the top and the bottom.

On the hamstring curl, do you have particularly weak hamstrings that need to be corrected along the exact plane a curl machine will allow you to work? Are you deadlifting? Can you given your knee injury at the moment. If you're squatting/deadlifting your hammies will be taken care of.

I hope you're still doing the rehab exercises since these are targeting that specific weak link in the chain.

As for lifting heavier, why don't you just pop up to us until you're back on the mats? We have heavier weights and catch bars for safety. I'm there every morning/evening so you could pop in handy enough.

Some good machines

Is there such a thing? Apart from Concept 2s maybe...

Hanley

Deadlifting is pretty much all hip extenstion on the hamstring side tho, and while it's probably the more important one for sporting purposes I think it would be foolish to just disgegard the leg curl machine as a tradition.

Like it or not they are effective in building up the hamstring muscles and will help a newb/weaker person to increase their squat and deadlift to a certain point. Hell I train with 300+kg squatters who STILL use hamstring curls as one of their assistance exercises.

Free weights are all well and good, but in the beginning you DO need a base to work from before you can start to get stronger.

And OP, stay away from the smith machince. You'd be better with Bulgarian spilts squats if you're knee is up to it.

TKD SC

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Dude!

Is the smith machine at an angle (the one in Westpark Fitness is, why I can't even fathom)? Stay away from the smith machine. Although the load will move up and down in a straight line you'll lose the feedback you'd get doing free squats, plus your muscles will work differently because of this lack of feedback....

Hey Colm,

Smith machine not at angle - I don't think so anyway! All seems fine. Would I be better doing more reps so with the light 35kg bar as opposed to heavier ones on the smith machine? 35kg is just so light though!

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

On the hamstring curl, do you have particularly weak hamstrings that need to be corrected along the exact plane a curl machine will allow you to work? Are you deadlifting? Can you given your knee injury at the moment. If you're squatting/deadlifting your hammies will be taken care of......

Not sure about the exact plane of the curl machine! But, hamstrings def could be stronger. Have kept away from deadlifts since knee injury. Again, I could start with some light ones, if that's gonna be better than the curl machine?

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

I hope you're still doing the rehab exercises since these are targeting that specific weak link in the chain.....

Yep, they take about 25mins every day. Been doing them religiously! We've added in some new ones too such as squat, step-up combos with dumbells (which are v good), and taken out some. I just need to add on more weight though to get muscle working more, as bodyweight isnt enough anymore as knees are getting stonger. Being v careful with everything I do though.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

As for lifting heavier, why don't you just pop up to us until you're back on the mats? We have heavier weights and catch bars for safety. I'm there every morning/evening so you could pop in handy enough.


Is there such a thing? Apart from Concept 2s maybe...

Thanks for offer. I might try to do that (although my gym is literally 2mins from house so v handy!!), although I hope to be back to you, on mats, within 2 weeks anyway - start Nov is my timeframe. You'll have to take it easy on me though for the first while!! Don't think anyone wants a repeat!!!

Thanks for reply!
Simon

Colm_OReilly

Hey Hanley,

Q about the 300Kg squatters, since you'd know more. Have these guys reached a point where squatting in and of itself can no longer disrupt the muscle out of stasis so they need to attack the muscles in a different way?

Related Q: Do you have any training routines of the world's best powerlifters (clean, of course)? I'd like to see how the game changes at the elite level.

Free weights are all well and good, but in the beginning you DO need a base to work from before you can start to get stronger.

Air squats? DLs with a broomstick/light Argos weights? I'm not being a smart ass it's been my observation that one doesn't need a starting program to begin training free weights or compound exercises. If proper technique is stressed as the number one factor and the load is scaled to a suitable intensity I've found you can get great results.

Thanks,
Colm

TKD SC

Thanks Hanley, Iascanmore & Rubadub for replies.

Guess I'll stay away from the Smith Machine, although I still dont really understand why it's so bad?

Re Colms quote: "Although the load will move up and down in a straight line you'll lose the feedback you'd get doing free squats, plus your muscles will work differently because of this lack of feedback...."

What is this feedback and how would muscles work differently?

If you guys are saying to stay clear from it, I will, and I'll just do more reps with the lighter bar, but am just curious now as to why its so bad!

Thanks guys

Simon

Hanley

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Hey Hanley,

Q about the 300Kg squatters, since you'd know more. Have these guys reached a point where squatting in and of itself can no longer disrupt the muscle out of stasis so they need to attack the muscles in a different way?

Related Q: Do you have any training routines of the world's best powerlifters (clean, of course)? I'd like to see how the game changes at the elite level.




Thanks,
Colm

The 300kg squatters I refer to have used the ham curls all the way thru their training career. These guys are the old school, nothing but western periodisation and hard bloody work, one of the is over 45 and still improving. Drug free as well.

Training between tested and untested lifters really doesn't vary that much to be honest. If anything, the drug free guys do higher volume.

It'd be hard to give an example program tbh. There's 3 mains schools of thought training wise, Westside, sheiko and traditional western periodisation. Are you familiar with em all or do you want a brief run down of each different style?

Colm_OReilly

Cheers Hanley. I'm familiar with the methodologies i just wanted to see an elite powerlifters exact program for further education/personal interest.

Simon,

Think in terms of balance. When squatting with a free weight on your back, the bar should travel in a straight line of your centre of gravity (midpoint of the foot).

But as you move under loads you'll have a tendency to fall forward/backward/to the side. Through propioception (fancy word for your body knowing where all it's bits are and what they're doing) you correct this by contracting some muscles more and some less, thereby giving yourself balance.

On a smith machine, all this work is taken out. While your muscles in a broad sense are still doing the work - they're losing out on the neurological component of strength. Without this feedback, your body can use stronger muscles to compensate for the weaker ones, and as a result the weaker ones get weaker. Transfer over to sport/life, where you don't have a nicely defined path, and the weak muscles are called into play and they just can't cut it.

A great example of smith machine related ugliness I've seen is people keeping their feet in front ot the bar and squatting, so that the weight is several inches behind their heels. You would in no way be able to do this if he wasn't on a smith machine.

Make sense?

Colm

TKD SC

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Make sense?

Colm

Yep, thanks for that! Will take a look at smith machine again just to see it work in reality, but does make sense.

Later dude

Hanley

Colm, there is no real exact program unfortunately. Things change all the time in training. Weaknesses show up and go away, injuries happen that might not allow you to do X, but you can still do Y.