Is suicide immoral?

tech77

Feel free to move to philosophy forum etc but just wondering what AH posters' views are on this.

Spades

dont know, ask a doctor.

Fad

nope end of, its your life you do what you want with it

Giblet

2 Posts in and it's been AH'd.
Moving to Humanities before it gets worse.

tech77

Spades wrote: »

dont know, ask a doctor.

A doctor of philosophy?

Also sorry for the double thread.
Would a mod delete the other one please.

Dave!

The common argument is that it causes your family, friends, etc., alot of distress, so therefore it's selfish and immoral.

But if that's the case then is it immoral to emmigrate? Take part in dangerous sports? (my mother would age terribly if I took up skydiving, for example) Choose a dangerous profession?

Fact is you're going to upset alot of people in your life, and you can't live your life without doing so. Most people don't make decisions based on what other people think -- is suicide that different?

I'm undecided BTW.

Capt'n Midnight

In a lot of cases yes.
There was the recent case in the UK where a bloke stopped his car in front of a train. Killed 5 other people. Another guy in France left a gas oven on and woke up later, changed his mind and went for a walk. The flats exploded later, couple of people killed. A sizable number of fatal car crashes where no other vehicle is involved are suicides. Some probably try the oncoming traffic.

There is no doubt that a lot of people have been killed needlessly by selfish suicides.

Some suicides are commited with the intention of punishing those they leave behind, blatently immoral.

What's really immoral is the Govt cutting back on money for suicide prevention and not helping the samaratins

Dave!

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

In a lot of cases yes.
There was the recent case in the UK where a bloke stopped his car in front of a train. Killed 5 other people. Another guy in France left a gas oven on and woke up later, changed his mind and went for a walk. The flats exploded later, couple of people killed. A sizable number of fatal car crashes where no other vehicle is involved are suicides. Some probably try the oncoming traffic.

There is no doubt that a lot of people have been killed needlessly by selfish suicides.

Some suicides are commited with the intention of punishing those they leave behind, blatently immoral.

What's really immoral is the Govt cutting back on money for suicide prevention and not helping the samaratins

They're obvious immoral/selfish actions, I would have assumed that the OP was referring to suicide where there is nobody else physically injured as a result. It goes without saying really that if you kill yourself by exploding yourself in a crowded school that it's an immoral act (certainly to a sane person).

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

unless it's a crowded school full of scumbags...

aidan24326

DaveMcG wrote: »

The common argument is that it causes your family, friends, etc., alot of distress, so therefore it's selfish and immoral.

But if that's the case then is it immoral to emmigrate? Take part in dangerous sports? (my mother would age terribly if I took up skydiving, for example) Choose a dangerous profession?

Fact is you're going to upset alot of people in your life, and you can't live your life without doing so. Most people don't make decisions based on what other people think -- is suicide that different?

I'm undecided BTW.

Emigration, skydiving are not exactly in the same league. Your mother might be a bit upset if you moved to Australia but she'd still see you from time to time and could keep in contact by phone etc. Your suicide would leave your family + wife/girlfriend/children completely devastated. Even though I believe everyone's life is their own we are not islands whether we like it or not and our actions inevitably have consequences for those close to us. In short our lives become intertwined with those we love so in some ways your life isn't just yours. That makes suicide a selfish act in a way. That said, I do feel alot of sympathy for anyone who's in such a dark place that they see suicide as the only solution. I've known 3 different people who've killed themsleves in the last couple of years (none of them were close friends though, but it's becoming shockingly common amongst young people).

EDIT: In saying I think it can be a selfish act I should add that someone who is at the point of putting a gun to their head or a rope round their neck is clearly in a very distressed state of mind and maybe it would be unfair to judge that person by any normal standards since they are in effect mentally ill at that time.

JimiTime

I think no matter which way you look at it, its wrong, however, there are different levels of empathy. I would use the stealing example:
1. A guy steals a loaf of bread to feed his children.
2. A guy steals a video game.

Both are wrong, but one would empathise with guy number 1 (providing of course that its not that he got p1ssed with his money or something similar, but you get the idea).

At the end of the day, to contemplate ending your life, things must be bad or at least you believe they are. It is a horrible thing to do to yourself and to those who love you, but you would have to question the mental health of the person.

Dave!

aidan24326 wrote: »

Emigration, skydiving are not exactly in the same league. Your mother might be a bit upset if you moved to Australia but she'd still see you from time to time and could keep in contact by phone etc. Your suicide would leave your family + wife/girlfriend/children completely devastated.

Well that's really just a matter of degrees, isn't it? Sure, most people who emmigrate keep in contact, but alot of people don't, and do so knowing that they'll never see their family again.

Also, depending on your religion, some people believe that they can continue to communicate with the deceased through prayer, etc., so that might give the parents of the person who commits suicide some consolation.

aidan24326 wrote: »

Even though I believe everyone's life is their own we are not islands whether we like it or not and our actions inevitably have consequences for those close to us. In short our lives become intertwined with those we love so in some ways your life isn't just yours. That makes suicide a selfish act in a way.

Again that means that every action that upsets those close to you should be considered selfish. It's just probably the case that suicide would upset them more than say, emmigration.

tech77

DaveMcG wrote: »

The common argument is that it causes your family, friends, etc., alot of distress, so therefore it's selfish and immoral.

But if that's the case then is it immoral to emmigrate? Take part in dangerous sports? (my mother would age terribly if I took up skydiving, for example) Choose a dangerous profession?

Fact is you're going to upset alot of people in your life, and you can't live your life without doing so. Most people don't make decisions based on what other people think -- is suicide that different?

I'm undecided BTW.

So if you had no loved ones you would think it's not an immoral act?

Even if you did have loved ones how immoral could you really say it is?

How much responsibility should the suicide bear for the emotional wellbeing of their loved ones.

Also to the poster who said killing others in the process is immoral, clearly that is the case.
The morality of suicide alone is what we're talking about.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Tough one.

People say it's selfish but why should the person be responsible for other people's well being,.

Overall I'd say yes it is, but I'd try my best to empathise with someone who completes suicide. If they want to do it it's just as selfish of me to expect them to go through hell for my sake.

Scoobydoobydoo

In simple terms, I think it is immoral:

Nobody has the right to take a life - any life.

The distress caused to others who find the body.

The distress caused to others who may be involved, such as train driver, car driver, whatever.

The neverending pain caused to family & friends.

Spades

tech77 wrote: »

A doctor of philosophy?

I didn’t know why such a post was started in AH, taught it was strange and wondered if they had been affected by suicide, the best place for advice in that situation if this was the case and im not saying it is, was to contact a GP

Dave!

Scoobydoobydoo wrote: »

Nobody has the right to take a life - any life.

Any human life, or any life at all? Cows? Worms? Public lice? Bacteria?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i don't have the right to my own life? really?

*Page*

Main Entry: immoral
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: evil
Synonyms: abandoned, bad, blue, corrupt, debauched, degenerate, depraved, dirty, dishonest, dissipated, dissolute, fast*, graceless, impure, indecent, iniquitous, lewd, licentious, loose*, nefarious, obscene, open, pornographic, profligate, rakish, reprobate, saturnalian, shameless, sinful, speedy, unchaste, unclean*, unethical, unprincipled, unscrupulous, vicious, vile, villainous, wicked, wide open, wrong, x-rated
Antonyms: ethical, moral
Notes: 1. a person who is amoral does not understand the difference between right and wrong, so it means that one is neither moral nor immoral, while a person who is immoral understands the difference but does wrong anyway; amoral means 'not concerned with morality' while immoral means 'not conforming to moral standards' or 'evil'
2. immortal means not subject to death, while immoral means violating principles of right and wrong or not adhering to ethical or moral principles



No i do not believe suicide is the above...

i feel that most people who have to go that far in their lives have nothing else to live for... its usually the best choice they have

Scoobydoobydoo

DaveMcG wrote: »

Any human life, or any life at all? Cows? Worms? Public lice? Bacteria?

Especially the bacteria.

Dudess

Well what about "mercy killings" for those with agonising, crippling physical illnesses?
Could it be argued that those living with agonising, crippling mental illnesses with no hope of getting better have the "right to die"?
I'm not talking about treatable mental illnesses, only very, very severe ones where the patient has to take a cocktail of drugs with severe side effects every day just to exist and has next to no quality of life - they may not even be able to work or have relationships. They may be in and out of psychiatric hospital and may even have to undergo ECT.
And this is all that life has in store for them. Could they be begrudged wanting to end it all?

Tar.Aldarion

No, suicide is not immoral.

DeletedPencil

It's not immoral to kill yourself, but if by doing so you're leaving somebody else to deal with something you ran away from, then it the case for an immoral action might be argued. But I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with killing yourself. You own yourself...nobody else does.

Scoobydoobydoo

Dudess wrote: »

Well what about "mercy killings" for those with agonising, crippling physical illnesses?
Could it be argued that those living with agonising, crippling mental illnesses with no hope of getting better have the "right to die"?

Could they be begrudged wanting to end it all?

No, I wouldn't begrudge them, I would understand it, and if I were in that situation, I can't say I wouldn't do it myself.
However I think it's wrong to legislate for it or to involve others because it's a slippery slope to murder as in it could get messy proving what is what.
I believe, it is immoral.

nacho libre

http://ashbusstop.org/kant.html

RedPlanet

If it's such an selfish act (because it affects the well-being of survivors), then isn't it also selfish of those survivors for having allowed the person to deteriorate to the point of suicide in the first place?

moe_sizlak

RedPlanet wrote: »

If it's such an selfish act (because it affects the well-being of survivors), then isn't it also selfish of those survivors for having allowed the person to deteriorate to the point of suicide in the first place?

well said , i know of situations where people have took there own lives and when i heard it , my 1st thought was , im not surprised , they came from very dysfunctional familys and in one case , abuse was well known to have occurred , its silly to assume that all familys treat there own well and in fact they may have been the ones to drive one of there own to suicide , many parents are not good parents

i actually have a lot of respect for people who commit suicide , contrary to popular belief i believe that commiting suicude is possibley the braves thing one can do , its the ultimate descision one can make , venturing into the complete unknown , i believe the reason its said that it is a cowardly act is perhaps due to the church being so against it and also some may believe that attaching a cowardly stigma to the act may deter some from carrying out the act , as regards the churches view that its a sin against god , to that all i say is if god didnt want people to commit suicide , he should have dealt them a better hand , the comedian bill maher once said , suicide is mans way of telling god , you cant fire me , i quit

i think those who commit suicide are by and large very proud people who have set very high standards for themselves and because they cannot live with there own percieved failures , decide to end it , were scumbags and criminals to have commited suicide earlier in there life instead of taking there self loathing out on the rest of society , the world might be a better place
all the people i have known who have topped themselves were people of honour , i for one salute those who choose to live there life and end there life on there own terms , there are things much worse than death anyway

tech77

moe_sizlak wrote: »

well said , i know of situations where people have took there own lives and when i heard it , my 1st thought was , im not surprised , they came from very dysfunctional familys and in one case , abuse was well known to have occurred , its silly to assume that all familys treat there own well and in fact they may have been the ones to drive one of there own to suicide , many parents are not good parents

i actually have a lot of respect for people who commit suicide , contrary to popular belief i believe that commiting suicude is possibley the braves thing one can do , its the ultimate descision one can make , venturing into the complete unknown , i believe the reason its said that it is a cowardly act is perhaps due to the church being so against it and also some may believe that attaching a cowardly stigma to the act may deter some from carrying out the act , as regards the churches view that its a sin against god , to that all i say is if god didnt want people to commit suicide , he should have dealt them a better hand , the comedian bill maher once said , suicide is mans way of telling god , you cant fire me , i quit

i think those who commit suicide are by and large very proud people who have set very high standards for themselves and because they cannot live with there own percieved failures , decide to end it , were scumbags and criminals to have commited suicide earlier in there life instead of taking there self loathing out on the rest of society , the world might be a better place
all the people i have known who have topped themselves were people of honour , i for one salute those who choose to live there life and end there life on there own terms , there are things much worse than death anyway

Very interesting post mate.
Definitely not a viewpoint you hear that often.
And definitely not a view that society would be at ease with that's for sure.

I suppose it's personal autonomy versus all the other considerations societal/cultural/religious/moral etc.

I agree also about the glib labelling of all cases of suicide as cowardly. It's a very presumptuous thing to say.

McGinty

You need to define 'immoral' against what? The church, religion, the family left behind?

Personally I don't know, yes my sister killed herself, do I feel she was immoral, I don't know, against the church maybe but what impact/help were they? Having said that she was given a very loving and decent burial by the church in spite of her killing herself. Immoral against us, her family, well it comes down to this, her death is painful, real painful, but would I want her to live in misery to please us? No I wouldn't. but I am going to say this, there are some ****ing stupid arsewipe answers in this forum, from and please prove me wrong people who are great with the theories and know **** all what it genuinely feels like a) to lose someone to suicide and b) to feel suicidal.

You cannot blame suicide on others, a person tops themselves because they are in so much pain they cannot go on, it is too overwhelming, and yes we could have done more but our sister was determined, we could have kept her alive against her will. Beofre I go on, suicide is not like achoice of moving countires or any other ****ty thing, it is finite, it is the end, and it is not taken lightly, it is neither couragous or bad, yes my spelling is bad, I am drunked and ****ed up, and I cant be bothered to correct my mistakes, naviagete them. Suicide is an unknown entity, we know **** all about it other than it is happening more frequently, and none of us realy know why. I don't know whether its immoral, define immoral and maybe I can answer further, does it hurt, well yes, it does, you feel a failure when abrother sister or family mmemebr takes there own life, you feel you failed them, you feel you could do more, so moe_sizlak well we are guilty, but know this some who are abused kill themsleves, and some who are abused carry on living, explain that one please.

Archeron

moe_sizlak wrote: »

i actually have a lot of respect for people who commit suicide , contrary to popular belief i believe that commiting suicude is possibley the braves thing one can do ,

i think those who commit suicide are by and large very proud people who have set very high standards for themselves and because they cannot live with there own percieved failures , decide to end it , were scumbags and criminals to have commited suicide earlier in there life instead of taking there self loathing out on the rest of society , the world might be a better place
all the people i have known who have topped themselves were people of honour , i for one salute those who choose to live there life and end there life on there own terms , there are things much worse than death anyway

I agree with Tech77 that your post is very interesting indeed. While I disagree with some of what you say, the point about it not being cowardly is IMO indeed correct.
When I was quite a bit younger, a combination of difficult personal circumstances, seemingly impossible ( *insured ) financial problems, a turmoiled mind, and a ****ing bottle of Southern Comfort led me to stupidly try to take my own life with an overdose of sleeping pills. Although the vast vast majority, to me, of this was caused by stupidly drinking killer amounts of alcohol, I do, somewhat surprisingly still remember the moments leading to me trying to overdose, and they are not easy memories.

I love life, I love the world and I love all there is to see and do and experience. That has always been the way with me. I love my family, my friends, i loved my girlfriends through the years, and to contemplate leaving all of that behind to dive into what is essentially an endless black canyon took a step that I doubt I could ever take again, in any other aspect of my life. Alcohol clouded my judgement terribly that night, I do firmly believe that, and its not just an excuse; i know i share my own blame, but I think that drink could certainly be a large part of the reason why suicide is such a problem in this country.

I am a proud person, but my trying that that night had nothing to do with that. If anything, for me personally, it was temporary insanity due to a particularly unfortunate grouping of events, reactions, circumstances, situations, malicious thought and drunken arguments. I would see it as something that any one of us could find themselves on the brink of, given the right (or wrong) sequence of events.

I was lucky enough to have had a brother in the house that night that sensed something wrong, and kept me 1% lucid for the three days it took me to recover from that. I vaguely remember snippets throughout of the place where my mind was, and it is not good.

One good thing to come from this is that in my rich and wonderful life since, I have spoken personally in confidence to three people I knew who were actually contemplating the same thing. From my vague experience of what I done, and my (possibly hallucinated, who knows??) memories of the time when I indeed teetered on the brink of the ultimate abyss, I have shared my honest and heartfelt feeling on this difficult subject, and my own experience. I do think this has helped them deal more easily with a subject that I personally still consider to be Taboo in this country.

To this day, nothing scares me more than that particular event in my life. A chilling feeling that sears your actual soul and makes you question the very fabric of your existence is all it offered me, with an appreciation for the good things in life, however hard they be to see.

My life is still sucky in its own ways, and there are many things I would change, but at the end of the day, I still see the good things, and the wonder, and it makes me happy and proud to be alive.

EDIT: OP, to answer your question, No, I do not think it is immoral. But I do think that the reasoning behind the final decision in that persons mind could for many reasons be clouded from showing the correct decision.

is_that_so

I don't believe that it is immoral but neither is it brave. It is a path chosen that is often not understood by those affected by it. I can understand the association of honour that some people ascribe to it. I think there is an element of helplessness rather than selfishness about it. It is a cry for help but one unfortunately that usually can't be answered.

I also feel that it is that great taboo of mental illness that we cannot acknowledge or choose to ignore that is at the root of it. Like everything these days we can all become ill due to life's pressures.

Yet there is also an emptiness to an event like this. A relative of mine took his life earlier this year at a tragic young age. Looking at photographs of him from those final months it is clear that something was not right. Even though his family appear to have come through strongly there is an emptiness that his choice left behind it. Standing in the church looking at the coffin, surrounded by young people, the only question in my mind was why did it need to come to that.

My own personal feeling is that it was tragic waste of a young life and not a choice that he should have felt compelled to make. Life is for living and I admire that in people, that ability to face down the hardships that life throws at us.