Is suicide immoral?

tech77

Feel free to move to philosophy forum etc but just wondering what AH posters' views are on this.

Spades

dont know, ask a doctor.

Fad

nope end of, its your life you do what you want with it

Giblet

2 Posts in and it's been AH'd.
Moving to Humanities before it gets worse.

tech77

Spades wrote: »

dont know, ask a doctor.

A doctor of philosophy?

Also sorry for the double thread.
Would a mod delete the other one please.

Dave!

The common argument is that it causes your family, friends, etc., alot of distress, so therefore it's selfish and immoral.

But if that's the case then is it immoral to emmigrate? Take part in dangerous sports? (my mother would age terribly if I took up skydiving, for example) Choose a dangerous profession?

Fact is you're going to upset alot of people in your life, and you can't live your life without doing so. Most people don't make decisions based on what other people think -- is suicide that different?

I'm undecided BTW.

Capt'n Midnight

In a lot of cases yes.
There was the recent case in the UK where a bloke stopped his car in front of a train. Killed 5 other people. Another guy in France left a gas oven on and woke up later, changed his mind and went for a walk. The flats exploded later, couple of people killed. A sizable number of fatal car crashes where no other vehicle is involved are suicides. Some probably try the oncoming traffic.

There is no doubt that a lot of people have been killed needlessly by selfish suicides.

Some suicides are commited with the intention of punishing those they leave behind, blatently immoral.

What's really immoral is the Govt cutting back on money for suicide prevention and not helping the samaratins

Dave!

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

In a lot of cases yes.
There was the recent case in the UK where a bloke stopped his car in front of a train. Killed 5 other people. Another guy in France left a gas oven on and woke up later, changed his mind and went for a walk. The flats exploded later, couple of people killed. A sizable number of fatal car crashes where no other vehicle is involved are suicides. Some probably try the oncoming traffic.

There is no doubt that a lot of people have been killed needlessly by selfish suicides.

Some suicides are commited with the intention of punishing those they leave behind, blatently immoral.

What's really immoral is the Govt cutting back on money for suicide prevention and not helping the samaratins

They're obvious immoral/selfish actions, I would have assumed that the OP was referring to suicide where there is nobody else physically injured as a result. It goes without saying really that if you kill yourself by exploding yourself in a crowded school that it's an immoral act (certainly to a sane person).

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

unless it's a crowded school full of scumbags...

aidan24326

DaveMcG wrote: »

The common argument is that it causes your family, friends, etc., alot of distress, so therefore it's selfish and immoral.

But if that's the case then is it immoral to emmigrate? Take part in dangerous sports? (my mother would age terribly if I took up skydiving, for example) Choose a dangerous profession?

Fact is you're going to upset alot of people in your life, and you can't live your life without doing so. Most people don't make decisions based on what other people think -- is suicide that different?

I'm undecided BTW.

Emigration, skydiving are not exactly in the same league. Your mother might be a bit upset if you moved to Australia but she'd still see you from time to time and could keep in contact by phone etc. Your suicide would leave your family + wife/girlfriend/children completely devastated. Even though I believe everyone's life is their own we are not islands whether we like it or not and our actions inevitably have consequences for those close to us. In short our lives become intertwined with those we love so in some ways your life isn't just yours. That makes suicide a selfish act in a way. That said, I do feel alot of sympathy for anyone who's in such a dark place that they see suicide as the only solution. I've known 3 different people who've killed themsleves in the last couple of years (none of them were close friends though, but it's becoming shockingly common amongst young people).

EDIT: In saying I think it can be a selfish act I should add that someone who is at the point of putting a gun to their head or a rope round their neck is clearly in a very distressed state of mind and maybe it would be unfair to judge that person by any normal standards since they are in effect mentally ill at that time.

JimiTime

I think no matter which way you look at it, its wrong, however, there are different levels of empathy. I would use the stealing example:
1. A guy steals a loaf of bread to feed his children.
2. A guy steals a video game.

Both are wrong, but one would empathise with guy number 1 (providing of course that its not that he got p1ssed with his money or something similar, but you get the idea).

At the end of the day, to contemplate ending your life, things must be bad or at least you believe they are. It is a horrible thing to do to yourself and to those who love you, but you would have to question the mental health of the person.

Dave!

aidan24326 wrote: »

Emigration, skydiving are not exactly in the same league. Your mother might be a bit upset if you moved to Australia but she'd still see you from time to time and could keep in contact by phone etc. Your suicide would leave your family + wife/girlfriend/children completely devastated.

Well that's really just a matter of degrees, isn't it? Sure, most people who emmigrate keep in contact, but alot of people don't, and do so knowing that they'll never see their family again.

Also, depending on your religion, some people believe that they can continue to communicate with the deceased through prayer, etc., so that might give the parents of the person who commits suicide some consolation.

aidan24326 wrote: »

Even though I believe everyone's life is their own we are not islands whether we like it or not and our actions inevitably have consequences for those close to us. In short our lives become intertwined with those we love so in some ways your life isn't just yours. That makes suicide a selfish act in a way.

Again that means that every action that upsets those close to you should be considered selfish. It's just probably the case that suicide would upset them more than say, emmigration.

tech77

DaveMcG wrote: »

The common argument is that it causes your family, friends, etc., alot of distress, so therefore it's selfish and immoral.

But if that's the case then is it immoral to emmigrate? Take part in dangerous sports? (my mother would age terribly if I took up skydiving, for example) Choose a dangerous profession?

Fact is you're going to upset alot of people in your life, and you can't live your life without doing so. Most people don't make decisions based on what other people think -- is suicide that different?

I'm undecided BTW.

So if you had no loved ones you would think it's not an immoral act?

Even if you did have loved ones how immoral could you really say it is?

How much responsibility should the suicide bear for the emotional wellbeing of their loved ones.

Also to the poster who said killing others in the process is immoral, clearly that is the case.
The morality of suicide alone is what we're talking about.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Tough one.

People say it's selfish but why should the person be responsible for other people's well being,.

Overall I'd say yes it is, but I'd try my best to empathise with someone who completes suicide. If they want to do it it's just as selfish of me to expect them to go through hell for my sake.

Scoobydoobydoo

In simple terms, I think it is immoral:

Nobody has the right to take a life - any life.

The distress caused to others who find the body.

The distress caused to others who may be involved, such as train driver, car driver, whatever.

The neverending pain caused to family & friends.

Spades

tech77 wrote: »

A doctor of philosophy?

I didn’t know why such a post was started in AH, taught it was strange and wondered if they had been affected by suicide, the best place for advice in that situation if this was the case and im not saying it is, was to contact a GP

Dave!

Scoobydoobydoo wrote: »

Nobody has the right to take a life - any life.

Any human life, or any life at all? Cows? Worms? Public lice? Bacteria?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i don't have the right to my own life? really?

*Page*

Main Entry: immoral
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: evil
Synonyms: abandoned, bad, blue, corrupt, debauched, degenerate, depraved, dirty, dishonest, dissipated, dissolute, fast*, graceless, impure, indecent, iniquitous, lewd, licentious, loose*, nefarious, obscene, open, pornographic, profligate, rakish, reprobate, saturnalian, shameless, sinful, speedy, unchaste, unclean*, unethical, unprincipled, unscrupulous, vicious, vile, villainous, wicked, wide open, wrong, x-rated
Antonyms: ethical, moral
Notes: 1. a person who is amoral does not understand the difference between right and wrong, so it means that one is neither moral nor immoral, while a person who is immoral understands the difference but does wrong anyway; amoral means 'not concerned with morality' while immoral means 'not conforming to moral standards' or 'evil'
2. immortal means not subject to death, while immoral means violating principles of right and wrong or not adhering to ethical or moral principles



No i do not believe suicide is the above...

i feel that most people who have to go that far in their lives have nothing else to live for... its usually the best choice they have

Scoobydoobydoo

DaveMcG wrote: »

Any human life, or any life at all? Cows? Worms? Public lice? Bacteria?

Especially the bacteria.

Dudess

Well what about "mercy killings" for those with agonising, crippling physical illnesses?
Could it be argued that those living with agonising, crippling mental illnesses with no hope of getting better have the "right to die"?
I'm not talking about treatable mental illnesses, only very, very severe ones where the patient has to take a cocktail of drugs with severe side effects every day just to exist and has next to no quality of life - they may not even be able to work or have relationships. They may be in and out of psychiatric hospital and may even have to undergo ECT.
And this is all that life has in store for them. Could they be begrudged wanting to end it all?

Tar.Aldarion

No, suicide is not immoral.

DeletedPencil

It's not immoral to kill yourself, but if by doing so you're leaving somebody else to deal with something you ran away from, then it the case for an immoral action might be argued. But I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with killing yourself. You own yourself...nobody else does.

Scoobydoobydoo

Dudess wrote: »

Well what about "mercy killings" for those with agonising, crippling physical illnesses?
Could it be argued that those living with agonising, crippling mental illnesses with no hope of getting better have the "right to die"?

Could they be begrudged wanting to end it all?

No, I wouldn't begrudge them, I would understand it, and if I were in that situation, I can't say I wouldn't do it myself.
However I think it's wrong to legislate for it or to involve others because it's a slippery slope to murder as in it could get messy proving what is what.
I believe, it is immoral.

nacho libre

http://ashbusstop.org/kant.html

RedPlanet

If it's such an selfish act (because it affects the well-being of survivors), then isn't it also selfish of those survivors for having allowed the person to deteriorate to the point of suicide in the first place?

moe_sizlak

RedPlanet wrote: »

If it's such an selfish act (because it affects the well-being of survivors), then isn't it also selfish of those survivors for having allowed the person to deteriorate to the point of suicide in the first place?

well said , i know of situations where people have took there own lives and when i heard it , my 1st thought was , im not surprised , they came from very dysfunctional familys and in one case , abuse was well known to have occurred , its silly to assume that all familys treat there own well and in fact they may have been the ones to drive one of there own to suicide , many parents are not good parents

i actually have a lot of respect for people who commit suicide , contrary to popular belief i believe that commiting suicude is possibley the braves thing one can do , its the ultimate descision one can make , venturing into the complete unknown , i believe the reason its said that it is a cowardly act is perhaps due to the church being so against it and also some may believe that attaching a cowardly stigma to the act may deter some from carrying out the act , as regards the churches view that its a sin against god , to that all i say is if god didnt want people to commit suicide , he should have dealt them a better hand , the comedian bill maher once said , suicide is mans way of telling god , you cant fire me , i quit

i think those who commit suicide are by and large very proud people who have set very high standards for themselves and because they cannot live with there own percieved failures , decide to end it , were scumbags and criminals to have commited suicide earlier in there life instead of taking there self loathing out on the rest of society , the world might be a better place
all the people i have known who have topped themselves were people of honour , i for one salute those who choose to live there life and end there life on there own terms , there are things much worse than death anyway

tech77

moe_sizlak wrote: »

well said , i know of situations where people have took there own lives and when i heard it , my 1st thought was , im not surprised , they came from very dysfunctional familys and in one case , abuse was well known to have occurred , its silly to assume that all familys treat there own well and in fact they may have been the ones to drive one of there own to suicide , many parents are not good parents

i actually have a lot of respect for people who commit suicide , contrary to popular belief i believe that commiting suicude is possibley the braves thing one can do , its the ultimate descision one can make , venturing into the complete unknown , i believe the reason its said that it is a cowardly act is perhaps due to the church being so against it and also some may believe that attaching a cowardly stigma to the act may deter some from carrying out the act , as regards the churches view that its a sin against god , to that all i say is if god didnt want people to commit suicide , he should have dealt them a better hand , the comedian bill maher once said , suicide is mans way of telling god , you cant fire me , i quit

i think those who commit suicide are by and large very proud people who have set very high standards for themselves and because they cannot live with there own percieved failures , decide to end it , were scumbags and criminals to have commited suicide earlier in there life instead of taking there self loathing out on the rest of society , the world might be a better place
all the people i have known who have topped themselves were people of honour , i for one salute those who choose to live there life and end there life on there own terms , there are things much worse than death anyway

Very interesting post mate.
Definitely not a viewpoint you hear that often.
And definitely not a view that society would be at ease with that's for sure.

I suppose it's personal autonomy versus all the other considerations societal/cultural/religious/moral etc.

I agree also about the glib labelling of all cases of suicide as cowardly. It's a very presumptuous thing to say.

McGinty

You need to define 'immoral' against what? The church, religion, the family left behind?

Personally I don't know, yes my sister killed herself, do I feel she was immoral, I don't know, against the church maybe but what impact/help were they? Having said that she was given a very loving and decent burial by the church in spite of her killing herself. Immoral against us, her family, well it comes down to this, her death is painful, real painful, but would I want her to live in misery to please us? No I wouldn't. but I am going to say this, there are some ****ing stupid arsewipe answers in this forum, from and please prove me wrong people who are great with the theories and know **** all what it genuinely feels like a) to lose someone to suicide and b) to feel suicidal.

You cannot blame suicide on others, a person tops themselves because they are in so much pain they cannot go on, it is too overwhelming, and yes we could have done more but our sister was determined, we could have kept her alive against her will. Beofre I go on, suicide is not like achoice of moving countires or any other ****ty thing, it is finite, it is the end, and it is not taken lightly, it is neither couragous or bad, yes my spelling is bad, I am drunked and ****ed up, and I cant be bothered to correct my mistakes, naviagete them. Suicide is an unknown entity, we know **** all about it other than it is happening more frequently, and none of us realy know why. I don't know whether its immoral, define immoral and maybe I can answer further, does it hurt, well yes, it does, you feel a failure when abrother sister or family mmemebr takes there own life, you feel you failed them, you feel you could do more, so moe_sizlak well we are guilty, but know this some who are abused kill themsleves, and some who are abused carry on living, explain that one please.

Archeron

moe_sizlak wrote: »

i actually have a lot of respect for people who commit suicide , contrary to popular belief i believe that commiting suicude is possibley the braves thing one can do ,

i think those who commit suicide are by and large very proud people who have set very high standards for themselves and because they cannot live with there own percieved failures , decide to end it , were scumbags and criminals to have commited suicide earlier in there life instead of taking there self loathing out on the rest of society , the world might be a better place
all the people i have known who have topped themselves were people of honour , i for one salute those who choose to live there life and end there life on there own terms , there are things much worse than death anyway

I agree with Tech77 that your post is very interesting indeed. While I disagree with some of what you say, the point about it not being cowardly is IMO indeed correct.
When I was quite a bit younger, a combination of difficult personal circumstances, seemingly impossible ( *insured ) financial problems, a turmoiled mind, and a ****ing bottle of Southern Comfort led me to stupidly try to take my own life with an overdose of sleeping pills. Although the vast vast majority, to me, of this was caused by stupidly drinking killer amounts of alcohol, I do, somewhat surprisingly still remember the moments leading to me trying to overdose, and they are not easy memories.

I love life, I love the world and I love all there is to see and do and experience. That has always been the way with me. I love my family, my friends, i loved my girlfriends through the years, and to contemplate leaving all of that behind to dive into what is essentially an endless black canyon took a step that I doubt I could ever take again, in any other aspect of my life. Alcohol clouded my judgement terribly that night, I do firmly believe that, and its not just an excuse; i know i share my own blame, but I think that drink could certainly be a large part of the reason why suicide is such a problem in this country.

I am a proud person, but my trying that that night had nothing to do with that. If anything, for me personally, it was temporary insanity due to a particularly unfortunate grouping of events, reactions, circumstances, situations, malicious thought and drunken arguments. I would see it as something that any one of us could find themselves on the brink of, given the right (or wrong) sequence of events.

I was lucky enough to have had a brother in the house that night that sensed something wrong, and kept me 1% lucid for the three days it took me to recover from that. I vaguely remember snippets throughout of the place where my mind was, and it is not good.

One good thing to come from this is that in my rich and wonderful life since, I have spoken personally in confidence to three people I knew who were actually contemplating the same thing. From my vague experience of what I done, and my (possibly hallucinated, who knows??) memories of the time when I indeed teetered on the brink of the ultimate abyss, I have shared my honest and heartfelt feeling on this difficult subject, and my own experience. I do think this has helped them deal more easily with a subject that I personally still consider to be Taboo in this country.

To this day, nothing scares me more than that particular event in my life. A chilling feeling that sears your actual soul and makes you question the very fabric of your existence is all it offered me, with an appreciation for the good things in life, however hard they be to see.

My life is still sucky in its own ways, and there are many things I would change, but at the end of the day, I still see the good things, and the wonder, and it makes me happy and proud to be alive.

EDIT: OP, to answer your question, No, I do not think it is immoral. But I do think that the reasoning behind the final decision in that persons mind could for many reasons be clouded from showing the correct decision.

is_that_so

I don't believe that it is immoral but neither is it brave. It is a path chosen that is often not understood by those affected by it. I can understand the association of honour that some people ascribe to it. I think there is an element of helplessness rather than selfishness about it. It is a cry for help but one unfortunately that usually can't be answered.

I also feel that it is that great taboo of mental illness that we cannot acknowledge or choose to ignore that is at the root of it. Like everything these days we can all become ill due to life's pressures.

Yet there is also an emptiness to an event like this. A relative of mine took his life earlier this year at a tragic young age. Looking at photographs of him from those final months it is clear that something was not right. Even though his family appear to have come through strongly there is an emptiness that his choice left behind it. Standing in the church looking at the coffin, surrounded by young people, the only question in my mind was why did it need to come to that.

My own personal feeling is that it was tragic waste of a young life and not a choice that he should have felt compelled to make. Life is for living and I admire that in people, that ability to face down the hardships that life throws at us.

moe_sizlak

certain people who suffer from self loathing decide to kill themselves , certain people who suffer from self loathing decide to take there hate out on society and go round killing people or engaging in anti social lifestyles etc

i know which group i have more respect for

not everyone who is unhappy can turn there life around and make it into a hollywood ending , some people cant live with there failures , as i said earlier , most people who commit suicide are very proud , fair enough if your a failure and at rock bottom and living homeless and you manage to turn things around , perhaps you will end up a millionaire in 10 yrs but at the end of the day you had to swallow your pride , not everyone can do that
not everyone is content to whine to a shrink or go on oprah and tell how they knew they had reached rock bottom when they were lieing in there own filth , out of there heads on drugs etc

so perhaps we should be less judgemental towards those who decide to cash out

Archeron

moe_sizlak wrote: »

certain people who suffer from self loathing decide to kill themselves , certain people who suffer from self loathing decide to take there hate out on society and go round killing people or engaging in anti social lifestyles etc

i know which group i have more respect for

so perhaps we should be less judgemental towards those who decide to cash out

Why do you say that?
There is an element of society who, for whatever reasons take their self loathing or whatever it is out on society, and for that group of people I show little more than contempt. I try to trust that a good society will deal with that. (HA!)
For the people who consider the aspect of suicide to be the right end choice, I would say that I wish they would look deeper, not only at themselves, but at every single detail of their lives and what has gotten them there. There is more to the world that that which goes through your mind as you close your eyes for what you think is the last time.
People need to discuss this more, and although I havent been up to speed on the details, the AFAIK cuts in suicide prevension is a sad indicator of the society we live in.

I am not really sure what point I am trying to make to be brutally honest, but what I have posted above is part of my genuine personal experience with this subject.

dr_manhattan

"immoral" is a very blank cheque to sign off on a subject like suicide.

For starters, I guess we'd have to say we're talking about a specific kind of suicide: personally motivated, rather than patriotically or politically.

Apart from obvious examples such as kamikaze pilots and suicide bombers, once we look at the survival statisitcs for some armed groups, we see that those who are joining them are comitting a kind of 'statistical' suicide by laying their lives and responsibilities entirely at the mercy of their chain of command.

In homicide and suicide, we always forget that certain contexts for the acts are often *very* socially acceptable, and far from taboo. Any serviceman's wife who's had to endure a gradual psychological decay of their partner under military supervision would, I think, accept the idea that everyone watched and patted them on the back while their partner destroyed themselves and others.

Hell, the spouse of a member of any military or paramilitary organisation has had to endure the gradual loss of their wife or husband. Slow voluntary death. First you can't be depended on to be around the place, then the constant underlining of how they are "laying their life down" and then the headline or letter from their leader.

Voluntary death through military service is a great honour in our society, and even occurs in training accidents: it is not so rare as to be exceptional, even now in 'peacetime'. In some countries it's more common than any other form of death: the statues are quite literally everywhere.

So in order to discuss the 'morality' of suicide or homicide I think we have to acknowledge that we're looking through blinkers here. I've skimmed this thread and feel that everyone isn discussing the trappings - pills, alcohol, poor perspective etc. - but forgetting that what suicide is really is a decision: after that decision, there comes a variety of "approaches to the problem".

As a result, people think of suicide - a predominately young male occupation statistically - as a western, depressive problem affectinig societies where young men lose their purpose. But reduced to its fundamental terms, the drive to commit suicide is controlling (and many would say destroying) our entire world.

Put more clearly: our society is being ruled by the willingness of young men (and women) to throw their lives away for causes they may or may not believe in. From the jihadis to the american trailer park short timers, they are making the same essential choices as the suicidal man with the gun in the shopping mall or school, but they are being praised, equipped, salaried and groomed as martyrs by both sides.

Stars and bars on your coffin, or AK-47 on top of it, these are the trappings of acceptable human suicide. Moral or not, we condone it.

And this is what convinces me that the taboo status of "personal suicide" is much more social control than any real general social revulsion. I simply cannot understand how a society can praise suicide to the highest level (if you *give your life* then you kill yourself, right? You don't need to strap on explosives or pull your own trigger to be the instument of your own death) when it is in uniform, and then rather pompously declare it to be "wrong" and "damaging" when it is in a lonely bathroom somewhere.

When you look at military and paramilitary training, I feel it becomes obvious that authority figures have known for quite sometime that young males are sucidal and have a great urge to just give it all away. The worse their background, the less they care - hence the battle records of those troops drawn from the worst corners of empires.

Hence the french foreign legion, and the united states marine corps.

So yeah, this may seem a bit round-topic but I think that suicide can only really be looked at as a pure decision, not as a situation that someone arrives at. Anyone from a country such as Ireland, where we all known the experience of clapping someone on the back as they drink themselves to death, should be able to appreciate this kind of notion IMHO.

rant over ;-)

Archeron

Thats a very interesting post Dr Manhattan, and it made me personally feel a lot of conflicting emotions. If I may ask the question; are you Irish? Your post comes across as that from someone from the USA.
In Ireland, war is not an issue upon which we dwell. We live in a wealthy Western European country enojoying a boom time and there is, realistically no reason to be sociallly pissed off to this point. But Irish people are, and it needs to be discussed more to find out why the hell so many people feel they need to die.
For every man who dies needlessly in war, another dies needlessly in an anonymous bathroom. THey are both tragedies and they both deserve equal exposure and the potential capacity to discuss it.

dr_manhattan

Yep I'm irish born and bred: perhaps I have an atypical perspective but what you say surprises me - it could be a difference of when and where we came up:

"In Ireland, war is not an issue upon which we dwell."

Okay - I find this strange, having grown up in the 70s and 80s. I have known active service unit members of the IRA, and have relatives in the british army. War was all around me when I grew up, which is why I speak about both volunteer militias and formal armies.

"We live in a wealthy Western European country enojoying a boom time and there is, realistically no reason to be sociallly pissed off to this point."

Well, again this is a matter of perspective: I have had contact with young people who have plenty to be pissed off about. My mother has also been involved in the compilation of suicide statistics back when we first started compiling them in the early 90s (up until then it was difficult as suicide - being a crime - could not be given as cause of death without a trial)

People find reasons to be pissed off. And sure, right now in Ireland few of these are economic or of a nationalistic / warlike nature.

But that's my point: they still commit suicide. But because they don't join up or get a uniform they are not praised for it.

"But Irish people are, and it needs to be discussed more to find out why the hell so many people feel they need to die."

Again, this is kind of my point.

There is a general tendency to separate causal aspects of depression or suicide: we speak of "natural" aspects such as adolescent insecurity etc and then we speak of "social" aspects such as peer pressure and poor self image, and then we speak of "economic" aspects such as competition for jobs or poverty.

But rich or poor, happy or sad, a *hell* of a lot of young males commit suicide.

We know already that the aggressive effects of testosterone mean that men are responsible for almost all violent crime and a huge slice of crime generally. It produces antisocial and self centered irresponsible behaviour so why not suicide?

I'm *certainly* not saying that we should treat suicide as "natural" and do nothing about it, don't get me wrong, but what I'm trying to say is that I think it's a part of the human condition, and making people "happier" does not seem to be the route to the cause of the problem.

It's hard to explain my POV on this.

For example: many people today are prescribed antidepressants when they become upset. Sometimes they have a real solid reason to be upset, but they are being told they are "ill" because they cannot cope after a relative of friend dies, or they are being told they "need treatment" because they cannot handle their lives after their partner leaves.

I don't believe these people are sick. And I also don't believe that many people who suicide are so sick either. Hopeless, yes. No perspective, yes. IN many ways in a bad place but sick?

Is it sick to feel like you cannot go on and that the world is a horrible place? The world *is* after all a horrible place. We are not born with the tools to deal with it, and without help we *do* get to dead ends.

But sick? Not in a million years. If it's sick to be ultra sad then it's just as sick to be ultra happy: there are many cold logical reasons to be neither, being either is - if medicine is to be believed - "insane" or divorced from reality.

So I guess that's what I'm trying to say is that our society is a lot sicker and more ****ed up than we think it is. We can't see it because we ahve been made used to it, grown immune to its nastier aspects.

But to a teenager, a new mind, these things are painfully obvious and utterly perplexing. Sometimes I'm surprised suicide rates aren't 50% or higher: bombs, death, mortgages, bigotry and getting the right sofa for the sitting room.... are we so sure our society is all that much hot **** that we think people who can't stand it are "insane"?

Just a thought, just my perspective on the issue. I think basically that until we change the bigger picture, we're going to see a lot more suicide and that's just that.

Is that a very grim worldview?

;-)

nacho libre

dr_manhattan wrote: »

"But Irish people are, and it needs to be discussed more to find out why the hell so many people feel they need to die."




;-)

I don't know but i suspect the vast majority of suicides in Ireland are of men between the ages of 18-30.

I think is fairly obvious in the majority of cases whereby young men commit suicide as to why they do it.

dr_manhattan

"I think is fairly obvious in the majority of cases whereby young men commit suicide as to why they do it."

....and this is why?

Sorry, not being sarky, it's just impossible to discuss things without saying what's on your mind.

When you consider how many genuine suicide attempts fail, and how many cries for help wind up being fatal, I actually think that there's no clear pattern whatsoever - rich, poor, clever, dumb, handsome, ugly, active or slovenly, as you say the only thing in common is youth and male sex.

So why do you think young men commit suicide?

Archeron

nacho libre wrote: »

I don't know but i suspect the vast majority of suicides in Ireland are of men between the ages of 18-30.

I think is fairly obvious in the majority of cases whereby young men commit suicide as to why they do it.

I'm interested in that point too. What do you think may be the reason?

tech77

nacho libre wrote: »

I don't know but i suspect the vast majority of suicides in Ireland are of men between the ages of 18-30.

I think is fairly obvious in the majority of cases whereby young men commit suicide as to why they do it.

I'm intrigued as well as to what you think is the reason.

But personally i would say for males:
1) Changing roles of males in society leading to uncertainty as to where exactly they fit in.
2) Poor ability to deal with emotional turmoil and express it and confide in others as looking for help is seen as unmanly in their eyes. (Women will look for help)
3) Natural aggressiveness/tendency to violent methods thereby being more successful. (women self-harm more but are less successful)

Generally speaking though (males and females):
1) A lack of religious belief removes the moral deterrent.
2) A rapidly changing society where many people just feel left behind and despair.

dr_manhattan

I dunno tech77: I think the reasons you list are just the "western industrialised" reasons. I think that it happens everywhere else for different reasons, and as I said for other, legitimate reasons (as in "**** this I'm joining the army")

There has been no switch of mens roles in palestine, for example (though there is an amount of powerlessness it could be argued) and suicide is running high there now.

Also, there is a lot of suicide in religious communities generally I think (actually I'm generalising here massively but I don't *think* so) so I'm not sure that's a deterrent either.

nacho libre

dr_manhattan wrote: »

"I think is fairly obvious in the majority of cases whereby young men commit suicide as to why they do it."

....and this is why?

Sorry, not being sarky, it's just impossible to discuss things without saying what's on your mind.

When you consider how many genuine suicide attempts fail, and how many cries for help wind up being fatal, I actually think that there's no clear pattern whatsoever - rich, poor, clever, dumb, handsome, ugly, active or slovenly, as you say the only thing in common is youth and male sex.

So why do you think young men commit suicide?

I could well be wrong if the rate of suicide in young men has gone up since the decline in the influence of the catholic church in Irish life.
or maybe the claustrophic nature of society in those times was more of a deterrent regardless of the contributing factors?
To answer your question: It is my view that a lot of young Irish men are killing themselves because they can't come to terms with their sexuality. The stigma has lessoned of course but there is still a lot of homophobia in Irish society.
if what i promulgate is true you would likely say why aren't young gay women killing themselves at the same rate then? perhaps they have better coping mechanisms?

no doubt the the changing role of men in society is a contributing factor too. the breakdown of community and of course men just being emotionally illiterate when they are in trouble.

i'd be interested to hear from someone who has counselled men in this age range who have attempted suicide what they cited as their reasons.

moe_sizlak

i think the lessening influence of the catholic church has a lot to do with it , the lessening influence of religon in general , long ago people were just as likely to be unhappy but they didnt kill themselves because they were reminded each week by the parish priest that they would go to hell if they did

threats like that no longer work , suicide is higher in countries that are less religously orientated

dr_manhattan

"I could well be wrong if the rate of suicide in young men has gone up since the decline in the influence of the catholic church in Irish life."

I'm not sure there's *been* much of a change or even if such change would be measurable: as I said, suicide used to be unrecorded as it was a crime and required a judicial verdict to be stated as cause of death.

There is, quite simply, no way to prove this, or any of moe's assertions. To be quite honest I don't think people have changed that much in their core beliefs: they just aren't as publ;ic or pious about it.

Myself (and I do think that laying blame is a pointless exercise but when in rome...) I don't think religion's decline is the problem: I think it's the rise of the secular consumer society. People may think this is the same thing but I disagree: I think consumerism *actively* removes pleasure and meaning from life.

But hey, I can't prove this either.

I also feel society has it backwards: these people are not "wandering off" we are leaving them behind. Subtle difference but hopefully my point is clear.

As for people who've counselled young people in recent years, well I have, and have a lot of experience of institutions and suicidal ideation in my personal and professional life. This is my basis for the above sentiments / statements and I really *don't* feel religion is the problem.

I think we are the problem, our basic ability to communicate with each other and make ourselves feel welcome and secure. It's why we drink, too - no matter how much us Irish pretend to be the life and soul of the party we are an insecure, defensive, frightened bunch.

And as we seek solace in plasma screen TVs and cars... we make that part of the problem, too. It's amazing to me sometimes that people condemn single teen mothers when our most affluent and supposedly well suited parents have nothing to give their children except expensive clothing and an au pair.

suicide is a barometer of a society IMHO, and ours says that the money is a veneer and we are missing a lot.

shakin

not immoral but selfish:mad:

dr_manhattan

Damn.

I just posted a summary list of three males and their reasons that I have had close contact with this year, for nacho libre, and then my browser crashed. I'm short of time, so I'll summarise and say their problems were not sexual.

I'm not certain of this, of course: who can be. In my experience though and with the long exposure we've had, I just very much doubt it: day in, day out their worries and experiences just didn't suggest it to me. In all three cases we discussed it once or twice.

I also don't think being gay is such a stigma anymore: perhaps I'm just insulated there but really, I don't think so. The examples I gave were 21, 26 band 34, but with kids under 20 I honestly find it's not an issue. They may calle each other queers etc but their attitudes and prejudices are not as homophobic as many would think, and the experiences of young gay men don't speak so much of prejudice either... but that's just in my experience.

In my personal experience (I was born in the early 70s) it's different though: if it wasn't for these kids I'd assume it was the same as what it was like when I came up: viciously prejudiced and bigoted. But hell, there's openly gay kids in schools these days, 13 and 14 and upwards.

Am I wrong to think it's less of a problem than it was?

I just think that (albeit for only 10 or 15 years now admittedly) we can't continue to lump our problems at the doors of the church and its repressive culture: they ruined *our* lives, those of us who are 30 and older, but they're having less and less effects on subsequent generations.

Hell, they used to lay the blame entirely at unemployment and poverty: but we still have suicide in the wealthy.

Anyone for a chorus of "I don't like mondays"?

;-)

dr_manhattan

"not immoral but selfish"

This has been discussed already in the thread: I for one think it's an oversimplified and ironically selfish way to think about suicide.

There are a lot of behavioural patterns that depressed people indulge in that could be uncharitably (imho) be described as selfish: but sucide?

I'm not sure it makes things much easier for anyone, victim or friends. I don't see how destroying yourself is selfish, it's just not my way of looking at things. You can be angry at someone close to you that committed suicide, sure: but to me, suicidal people don't all fit in one box to be judged like that.

Just my 2 cents, I gotta go do things

moe_sizlak

i for one dont see it as selfish , perhaps it was the selfishness of others close to the person that drove them to commit such an act

its a cliche at this state to call someone selfish or cowardly

jtsuited

the facts state that most sucides are are carried out by seriously depressed people. anyone who has been severely depressed (proper depression that is) will know how suicide seemed like the only option.
to say things like it's 'immoral' or 'selfish' is just to further misunderstand why people commit suicide in the first place.