Business as usual by the IRA

gandalf

Well with the latest "punishment beating" that has gone wrong we can be in no doubt that the criminal elements of the IRA are still out there and still trying to influence people with fear and violence. As usual Sinn Fein are trotting out the old line that they had nothing to do with it but tbh who believes them anymore.

If they and their comrades in the IRA are serious about the peace process then they should turn in the murderers of Mr. Quinn to the only law and order authority in this country the Gardai. I doubt this will happen and then the next question we should ask ourselves is why we allow a political organisation to operate when they are associated at least or more likely linked to a pseudo-paramilitary mafia like operation which the Provisional IRA has transformed into.

Benedict XVI

gandalf wrote: »

Well with the latest "punishment beating" that has gone wrong we can be in no doubt that the criminal elements of the IRA are still out there and still trying to influence people with fear and violence. As usual Sinn Fein are trotting out the old line that they had nothing to do with it but tbh who believes them anymore.

If they and their comrades in the IRA are serious about the peace process then they should turn in the murderers of Mr. Quinn to the only law and order authority in this country the Gardai. I doubt this will happen and then the next question we should ask ourselves is why we allow a political organisation to operate when they are associated at least or more likely linked to a pseudo-paramilitary mafia like operation which the Provisional IRA has transformed into.

Makes me feel proud of the people of the Republic of Ireland for not increasing SF representation in the last election,

oh and don't give me this SF and IRA are totally seperate s**T

Fratton Fred

but, no member of the IRA has ever been convicted of drug dealing, fuel/pig smuggling.......:rolleyes:

murphaph

Indeed. I can't believe Adams can't find out who exactly committed that killing.

Voipjunkie

murphaph wrote: »

Indeed. I can't believe Adams can't find out who exactly committed that killing.

Seriously do you think the Gardai or the PSNI need Adams to tell them who did it.
In fairness Adams has said that anyone involved in this is a criminal and anyone with information should contact the PSNI or the Gardai no ifs buts or maybes.

Lemming

Voipjunkie wrote: »

In fairness Adams has said that anyone involved in this is a criminal and anyone with information should contact the PSNI or the Gardai no ifs buts or maybes.

You mean like they did with the McCartney murder?

murphaph

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Seriously do you think the Gardai or the PSNI need Adams to tell them who did it.
In fairness Adams has said that anyone involved in this is a criminal and anyone with information should contact the PSNI or the Gardai no ifs buts or maybes.

So will Gerry be going to the PSNI with any information he can glean from the republican movement, which he heads?

mike65

Lads stop this! 7 posts and everyone bashing the Provos.

Lets hear it for the other point of view.

Mike.

Voipjunkie

Lemming wrote: »

You mean like they did with the McCartney murder?

From memory in the McCarthy case they suggested people go to the PSNI if they were comfortable if not go to a solicitor etc etc
Not outright and immediate condemnation or call for support for the PSNI in dealing with the case
So the response seems different to me but I stand to be corrected

Voipjunkie

murphaph wrote: »

So will Gerry be going to the PSNI with any information he can glean from the republican movement, which he heads?

have no idea why don't you ask him.

mike65

I was listening carefully to Mr Adams on Newstalk and it was classic Grizzly, soft voiced felicitations, a dollop of insincerity for the family and then laying down smoke and steely spinning as he linked the dead chap with fuel smuggling in a not so subtle fashion.

Mike.

News reports since yesterday indicated that it was a row over fuel smuggling so Adams mentioning that did as much harm to his organisation as good there as I'd imagine most people wouldnt be long remembering that paramilitarism and diesel laundering have been associated.

What an awfull way to die
His friends who according to news reports presented at Daisy hill hospital must have been terrified,they waited so long to let the authorities know.

I'd imagine Adams and McGuinness are aware of who did this,when a former SF councillor for the area is publically stating that the IRA were involved.
I'd also imagine that the Gardaí have a fair idea too.
I'd also imagine that since this is now a murder investigation,the EGG on SF HQ faces is so stinky that they are and pardon my french probably eating the hole off republicans in the area.

Incidently Adams was very circumspect in his interview on the news at one...saying he had been talking to Conor Murphy who in turn had been speaking to local republicans.

If no one is caught for this and tried and convicted, this is going to be muck thrown at SF for quite some time imho because no matter how hard they try , they cannot believeably extricate themselves from the grass root shady element.
So really to be in normal politics, they have the ever present unenviable task of policing the activities of the hard men [read - we have the right to continue our pension hoarding/fuel laundering] and keeping their activities as hushed up as possible.

This episode,I think has been a disaster for them as far as that kind of management is concerned.

Mick86

Voipjunkie wrote: »

In fairness Adams has said that anyone involved in this is a criminal and anyone with information should contact the PSNI or the Gardai no ifs buts or maybes.

That's what he would say for public consumption. SF/IRA is not to be believed on anything.

Dave!

Tristrame wrote: »

News reports since yesterday indicated that it was a row over fuel smuggling so Adams mentioning that did as much harm to his organisation as good there as I'd imagine most people wouldnt be long remembering that paramilitarism and diesel laundering have been associated.

What an awfull way to die
His friends who according to news reports presented at Daisy hill hospital must have been terrified,they waited so long to let the authorities know.

I'd imagine Adams and McGuinness are aware of who did this,when a former SF councillor for the area is publically stating that the IRA were involved.
I'd also imagine that the Gardaí have a fair idea too.
I'd also imagine that since this is now a murder investigation,the EGG on SF HQ faces is so stinky that they are and pardon my french probably eating the hole off republicans in the area.

Incidently Adams was very circumspect in his interview on the news at one...saying he had been talking to Conor Murphy who in turn had been speaking to local republicans.

If no one is caught for this and tried and convicted, this is going to be muck thrown at SF for quite some time imho because no matter how hard they try , they cannot believeably extricate themselves from the grass root shady element.
So really to be in normal politics, they have the ever present unenviable task of policing the activities of the hard men [read - we have the right to continue our pension hoarding/fuel laundering] and keeping their activities as hushed up as possible.

This episode,I think has been a disaster for them as far as that kind of management is concerned.

Good post.

Voipjunkie

Mick86 wrote: »

That's what he would say for public consumption. SF/IRA is not to be believed on anything.

In that case there is not much point in discussing it with you as irrespective of what they say or do you have made up your mind you will not believe them.

For years people called on them to support the PSNI and the Gardai and now when they do the response is you don't believe them

Whats the point they don't do something you criticise them they do it and you still criticise them and say you do not believe them.

IMO I would imagine that apart from the family and friends of the murdered man and his injured friends the people most annoyed at this is Adams and Co

is_that_so

I think it is a case of old habits die hard. Whether it can be pointed at republicans of whatever hue remains to be seen. but what is clear is that whoever did it used the type of modus operandi associated with that type of savagery. I would have thought that it is in SF's interest to get to the bottom of it.
Conor Murphy is the worst person to trot out after something like this as he gets needled very easily and start blaming the messenger as he almost did
on Morning Ireland today. My heart goes out to his family.

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
Come on now, in any walk of life you take the word of someone whom you know to be credible. I'm not aware of a single history of recent violence which does not say that Gerry Adams was in command of the Belfast IRA, while GA himself denies he was ever a member of the IRA.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote: »

News reports since yesterday indicated that it was a row over fuel smuggling so Adams mentioning that did as much harm to his organisation as good there as I'd imagine most people wouldnt be long remembering that paramilitarism and diesel laundering have been associated.

What an awfull way to die
His friends who according to news reports presented at Daisy hill hospital must have been terrified,they waited so long to let the authorities know.

I'd imagine Adams and McGuinness are aware of who did this,when a former SF councillor for the area is publically stating that the IRA were involved.
I'd also imagine that the Gardaí have a fair idea too.
I'd also imagine that since this is now a murder investigation,the EGG on SF HQ faces is so stinky that they are and pardon my french probably eating the hole off republicans in the area.

Incidently Adams was very circumspect in his interview on the news at one...saying he had been talking to Conor Murphy who in turn had been speaking to local republicans.

If no one is caught for this and tried and convicted, this is going to be muck thrown at SF for quite some time imho because no matter how hard they try , they cannot believeably extricate themselves from the grass root shady element.
So really to be in normal politics, they have the ever present unenviable task of policing the activities of the hard men [read - we have the right to continue our pension hoarding/fuel laundering] and keeping their activities as hushed up as possible.

This episode,I think has been a disaster for them as far as that kind of management is concerned.

I agree just on a side note it should probably be noted that Jim McAllister was an election agent for Davy Hyland the former shinner who left over the policing issue.
So embarrassing his now political opponents in the Shinners would be high on his agenda I would imagine.

Not saying that what he said is wrong but if people are willing to reject out of hand what Adams says they should perhaps be more even handed and not accept verbatim everything someone who left SF over decommisioning and policing nows says about his former comrades

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Voip,
Come on now, in any walk of life you take the word of someone whom you know to be credible. I'm not aware of a single history of recent violence which does not say that Gerry Adams was in command of the Belfast IRA, while GA himself denies he was ever a member of the IRA.

Fair point we all know that Adams in common with alot of people lies about his involvement in the "troubles" but if we are to dismiss everything he says based on that then why are the same people so eager to accept the word of Jim Mcallister without any look as to possible motive.

It seems to me that if people are to dismiss Adams then they should equally dismiss McAllister to do otherwise is to only accept what supports your viewpoint irrespective of the truth

aidan24326

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

...while GA himself denies he was ever a member of the IRA.

Which makes it difficult to believe anything that comes out of his mouth when he continues to trot out a lie as laughable as that.

oscarBravo

Note to everybody: there's a rule in this forum about calling people liars. Take note.

guinnessdrinker

Mods, maybe this thread should be locked.

In fairness a young lad was brutaly beaten at the weekend, his family haven't even buried him yet.

Yet this thread already looks like its going to spiral into a game of one-upmanship, acusations and counter acusations based on speculation.

Mick86

Voipjunkie wrote: »

In that case there is not much point in discussing it with you as irrespective of what they say or do you have made up your mind you will not believe them.

There is nothing to discuss. The IRA hasn't gone away and SF is still the political wing of a bunch of murdering animals.

gandalf

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Mods, maybe this thread should be locked.

In fairness a young lad was brutaly beaten at the weekend, his family haven't even buried him yet.

Yet this thread already looks like its going to spiral into a game of one-upmanship, acusations and counter acusations based on speculation.

Translated imho you would prefer if it wasn't highlighted that "they haven't gone away".

I think it is important and it needs to be discussed. If anyone from Paul Quinn's family are reading this my sympathies and thoughts are with you at the moment and I am sure I talk for the vast majority here when I say I hope the people who carried out this brutal attack face the full force of the law.

guinnessdrinker

gandalf wrote: »

If anyone from Paul Quinn's family are reading this my sympathies and thoughts are with you at the moment and I am sure I talk for the vast majority here when I say I hope the people who carried out this brutal attack face the full force of the law.

Gandalf, I agree with the above of course, as does I'm sure everyone else.

However, using somebody's brutal death to furthur one's own motives is wrong, (and I'm not talking about you here).

Voipjunkie

gandalf wrote: »

I am sure I talk for the vast majority here when I say I hope the people who carried out this brutal attack face the full force of the law.

Absolutely the sooner the better no matter who or what organisation they belong or previously belonged to people who could do that need to be locked up for the safety of everyone.

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
It makes no sense to say that someone should be believed because another person is not credible.

If McA, the ex Provo, is not credible, that is a separate argument. No, I'm afraid having a motive to lie is not the same as lying.

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Voip,
It makes no sense to say that someone should be believed because another person is not credible.

If McA, the ex Provo, is not credible, that is a separate argument. No, I'm afraid having a motive to lie is not the same as lying.

I never said he was lying merely making the point that it is not credible to dismiss what Adams says on the basis that he is a provo ( who btw has accepted the PSNI and the disarming of the IRA) but readily accept what McAllister says( who has not accepted the PSNI and did not support disarming the IRA) purely on the basis that it supports a thesis that the provos did it.

If the words of Adams can be dismissed out of hand then it is illogical to readily accept the word of McAllister as the full and unadulterated truth.


And I am not saying just to clarify that either of them are lying they are probably both right it was the provos or ex provos and it is a completely criminal act and anyone with information should contact the Police or Gardai.

Sleepy

Having been quite vocal about my lack of time for the IRA and Sinn Fein in the past, I can't actually believe that this was in any way a sanctioned or politically motivated crime.

Let's face it, the kind of people who are active in a terrorist organisation are going to be the sort of people who behave in this fashion in any of their dealings. They're thugs. Simple as that. To try and make this a political issue when Adams has called on anyone with info to go to the PNSI isn't going to help anyone, least of all the family of the deceased.

This doesn't seem to be a case of the IRA doling out vigilante 'justice' to a drug dealer, settling a score with an informer or a member of the unionist paras etc. It seems to me at least to most likely be a member or former member of the IRA acting on his own accord and in his own interests. Hopefully the PNSI will find the thug and the judge will throw the book at him. It's not something that should be allowed to derail the peace process.

Wow, never thought I'd be the one defending SF!

lostexpectation

exactly sleepy, rumour is that its to with diesel smuggling, I don't understand why everyone is making a bigger deal about the the people being in the IRA then the fact that the killed somebody.

the parents seemd a bit , my sons a saint type

im sure the IRA men don't have to get army council sanction to take a ****.

guinnessdrinker

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

However, using somebody's brutal death to furthur one's own motives is wrong, (and I'm not talking about you here).

Who are you talking about?
Not the DUP surely? They've welcomed the utter condemnation of this by SF.

As I alluded to earlier and touched on by others here,I'd imagine SF are pretty píssed off by what these people have done whether they be former IRA or whatever.
SF/Republicanism doesn't want to be associated with this type of thing anymore.
Unfortunately but rightly for the perpetrators,they are going to find hopefully that they will have to pay for their actions with a significant term behind bars.
Selective amnesia as to the new dispensation and what they can no longer get away with up north just wont wash anymore even amongst their senior handlers.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote: »

Who are you talking about?
Not the DUP surely? They've welcomed the utter condemnation of this by SF.

As I alluded to earlier and touched on by others here,I'd imagine SF are pretty píssed off by what these people have done whether they be former IRA or whatever.
SF/Republicanism doesn't want to be associated with this type of thing anymore.
Unfortunately but rightly for the perpetrators,they are going to find hopefully that they will have to pay for their actions with a significant term behind bars.
Selective amnesia as to the new dispensation and what they can no longer get away with up north just wont wash anymore even amongst their senior handlers.

According to the Irish times today the PSNI have told the DUP that they have nothing to link this to the IRA at this stage
The Gardai are saying that they believe the people who carried it out may have been former IRA members and it is not linked to the IRA by sanction.

And that locals are firmly of the opinion that its a falling out amongst criminal gangs involved in smuggling diesel but that the fellow was just supposed to be beaten not murdered.

And just to go back to what someone asked earlier Adams is quoted in the Times as saying that if he personally had any hard evidence he would go to the PSNI with it and that people had a duty to report anything that could help catch the killers.

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote: »

According to the Irish times today the PSNI have told the DUP that they have nothing to link this to the IRA at this stage
The Gardai are saying that they believe the people who carried it out may have been former IRA members and it is not linked to the IRA by sanction.

And that locals are firmly of the opinion that its a falling out amongst criminal gangs involved in smuggling diesel but that the fellow was just supposed to be beaten not murdered.

There are 2 difficulties with that (1) The ultimate arbitrators of who is and isn't a current IRA member is the IRA-ergo (2)anyone who does something that is awkward like this operation can automatically become an "ex" IRA person.

I stand by my point though,and that is even if they just gave him a light beating,the perpetrators should see the hand of the law for that.
Those used to and who think they can still act above the law should be learning societal norms apply to them now aswell.
They always did apply to everybody of course but now they really really do apply.
Murder and manslaughter are crimes as are punishment beatings.

I mean I shudder to think what the E.U commission would think if we were to allow company bosses to beat their employee's around with cricket bats for turning up late for work or for crashing the company car...

[Thats an analogy there I'm using by the way given that the story behind this episode was people making money from smugling fell out with one of their employee's]

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
No, this won't wash. You are confusing motive with credibility. Until I can see that McA is not to be believed, his word is worth more than that of Adams. (Yes, I accept that motivation will feature in assessing credibility but nothing like as strongly as a record of deception.)

It seems that it needs saying again: The IRA still exists.

Maybe a question needs repeating too: What is the difference between a "peace process" and peace?

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Voip,
No, this won't wash. You are confusing motive with credibility. Until I can see that McA is not to be believed, his word is worth more than that of Adams. (Yes, I accept that motivation will feature in assessing credibility but nothing like as strongly as a record of deception.)

It seems that it needs saying again: The IRA still exists.

Maybe a question needs repeating too: What is the difference between a "peace process" and peace?

Why is his word worth more than Adams because you would like what he said to be true if you are to be in any way credible you would have to treat both McAllister and Adams with at least equal disdain.


On top of that Orde and Conroy are both giving an assessment that does not equate with what McAllister has said but based purely on the principle of the enemy of my enemy is my friend you are prepared to believe McAllister interesting to say the least.

oscarBravo

Dude. Seriously: punctuation is your friend. It takes me at least three tries to parse a meaning from your posts.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote: »

There are 2 difficulties with that (1) The ultimate arbitrators of who is and isn't a current IRA member is the IRA-ergo (2)anyone who does something that is awkward like this operation can automatically become an "ex" IRA person.

Well in this case the PSNI and the Gardai are the ones who are briefing that these are former IRA members it is not the IRA who have disowned them so I presume that gives the view that they are ex IRA members more credence for you.

Tristrame wrote: »

I stand by my point though,and that is even if they just gave him a light beating,the perpetrators should see the hand of the law for that.
Those used to and who think they can still act above the law should be learning societal norms apply to them now aswell.
They always did apply to everybody of course but now they really really do apply.
Murder and manslaughter are crimes as are punishment beatings.

I mean I shudder to think what the E.U commission would think if we were to allow company bosses to beat their employee's around with cricket bats for turning up late for work or for crashing the company car...

[Thats an analogy there I'm using by the way given that the story behind this episode was people making money from smugling fell out with one of their employee's]

I agree wholeheartedly I was not trying to suggest that there actions were ok because they did not mean to kill him just giving the background to the incident as per the Irish times this morning.
It is a different angle than was protrayed yesterday where it was a punishment beating for crossing a Republican if that is not the case then the implications for the Northern Assembly are very different if it is a falling out between criminals gangs that does not mean in anyway that the perpetrators are any less dangerous or deserve any less punishment.

Voipjunkie

oscarBravo wrote: »

Dude. Seriously: punctuation is your friend. It takes me at least three tries to parse a meaning from your posts.

Ah the punctuation police are after me again.

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
Try it this way.

Person A has a reputation for deception and, say, six eminent historians have effectively called her a liar.

Person B has no such reputation.

All other things being equal, it would be reasonable to believe Person B rather than Person A.

Now all other things might not be equal, in which case the logical calculus would change and might call the word of B into doubt but A would never be a credible person.

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Voip,
Try it this way.

Person A has a reputation for deception and, say, six eminent historians have effectively called her a liar.

Person B has no such reputation.

All other things being equal, it would be reasonable to believe Person B rather than Person A.

Now all other things might not be equal, in which case the logical calculus would change and might call the word of B into doubt but A would never be a credible person.

NO because you are only accepting person B on the basis that it supports your pre conception.

IF Person B was to make a statement regarding any other issue you would dismiss him out of hand as an unreconstructed provo.

If you are going to just say that you will never believe Mr A not matter what he says then it kind of makes any debate pointless.

for my part I think that SF and its leadership have quite obviously changed calls to give information to the PSNI should not be so easily dismissed

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
No, I'm not prepared to accept McA's word and his background in SF/IRA does call his credibility into doubt. Adams credibility is utterly shot. He may be telling the truth on this occasion. Restoring one's credibility is not easy and normally involves coming clean but even then there will be a lingering doubt. I think it would be wrong to dismiss as lies everything Adams says but it would be naive to accept his word without reservation.

LordSutch

Have they, or have'nt they gone away?

and if not, "WHY NOT"?

Mr.Micro

The IRA are never going to rat on each other .Like all clandestine organizations secrecy and code are what keeps them intact and protects the members ,just like the mafia . Dont hold your breath for answers or the truth.

RedPlanet

What do people expect exactly?
That the former IRA Army Council strolls into the local PSNI barracks and tells them so-and-so did it. And then that would be magically enough to secure a conviction?
Whatever happened to good ol' detective work.
Forensics and the like.

Jackie laughlin

Frankly, yes! Any citizen with any information must give it to the police. It may not be enough to secure a conviction but it may add to police knowledge.

Arthur,
No, they still exist. I asked several times here what they were for. Finally, I got one reply: they are under the control of Gerry Adams and they make sure that no one steps out of line!!

RedPlanet

Tell you what, you get HMG to bring to justice their own rogue elements and murderers then maybe we can convince the IRA to do the same.

Mighty_Mouse

SF told anyone with knowledge to go to the police?
SF state that the PSNI have their full support.

Whats the problem here?

People want Gerry Adams to actually do the police work also?

Finally, even most unionists agree that the IRA have disarmed & disbanded.
What you have here is a few FORMER 'RA-heads involved in crime.
I refer to my 1st 2 sentences on that one.

Jackie laughlin

Mighty,
You are the first person I have heard claim that the IRA has disbanded.

There is no problem as long as everyone does indeed tell the PSNI or An Garda everything they know about crimes.

Have a look at Red Planet's post just above. It illustrates the problem very well.

Red Planet,
The PSNI will be judged on rooting out and charging all murderers. Indeed, they should pursue police and army criminals more vigorously because their crimes betray the rule of law.

Mr.Micro

If the IRA went to the Police with info on the killing what then?Step into the witness box and give sworn evidence.If such an impossible scenario were to happen what then all the secrets from the past might start coming out as well.Unless the Police solve it it will stay unsolved

Voipjunkie

RedPlanet wrote: »

What do people expect exactly?
That the former IRA Army Council strolls into the local PSNI barracks and tells them so-and-so did it. And then that would be magically enough to secure a conviction?
Whatever happened to good ol' detective work.
Forensics and the like.

TBH once these guys get involved in criminality any loyalty should be out the window they are only discrediting the entire republican movement.

I don't expect anyone to inform on what people did when they were in the IRA but the war is over and there is no need for fund raising if these guys have gone solo and are lining their own pockets I don't see why they should be protected

Voipjunkie

Mr.Micro wrote: »

If the IRA went to the Police with info on the killing what then?Step into the witness box and give sworn evidence.If such an impossible scenario were to happen what then all the secrets from the past might start coming out as well.Unless the Police solve it it will stay unsolved

I don't see what useful or usable information the IRA would have on these people.
Yes they may be aware of who was involved, but I'm sure the Gardai and the PSNI know that already, what the police need is real evidence not third party word of mouth.
There are presumably 3 witnesses in the form of Mr Quinns friends that is the kind of information the police need.