Courses geared towards trading ?

DAEDULUS

Could anybody in the know tell me what would be the most suitable course to do if aiming for a junior trader job once done with college? A more business/finance related course or mathematics course? also are there any courses (from any particular college) that are regarded very highly by traders/firms?

Doing my leaving cert this year and I really just need help in finding the best path for what I wanna do

any help appreciated

Time Magazine

The only one I have personal experience of is Maths & Economics in TCD, which is very highly regarded.

If you're in Leaving Cert year, I'd recommend you do a course you're interested in (i.e. don't do Finance if you hate it; don't do Maths if you're crap at it) first and foremost.

Regardless, work hard on Maths now. It will only help you in later years.

daveirl

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xebec

Maths is the most important subject. After that having computer and business knowledge is next. Take a look at Management Science (MSISS) in Trinity, it has a long history of producing traders and is very sought after in many industries as well as banking.

ixus

The courses you want to look at should have a strong orientation to maths where possible. Don't limit yourself to just maths though. Accounting has its benefits in researching and analysing companies. Computer Engineering has huge benefits in the level of maths you do along with programming (Matlab and C are excellent languages to learn). Learn excel (to a high level) and VBA. Really try and get a summer internship at one of the big firms in London. Also, actuary would be an excellent course to do.

If your undergrad degree doesn't work out the way you want i.e. isn't as attractive as you want it to be you could look at a Masters in the following:
Financial & Capital Markets -DCU
Investment & Treasury - DCU
Computational Finance - UL
Financial Services - UL
Financial Engineering - NUI Maynooth.

All the above courses are excellent and would prepare you even more than an undergrad could.

dunkamania

BSc Economics and Finance

Actuaries and Finance.

If you are gonna do a commerce/business degree,you will most likely need a masters.

bottomdog

Outside of the above there is an Irish company called Global Stock Market Systems formerly London School of Investment. They provide a course in Trading. They are based in Drogheda but are connected with a lot of the international stock broking big boys in London JB, NYC, their course is a home based learning course to prepare you for exams and also provide a simulator to trade without risking a cent. It costs about €1,800, I never used it but I know traders that say its very good.

ixus

bottomdog wrote: »

Outside of the above there is an Irish company called Global Stock Market Systems formerly London School of Investment. They provide a course in Trading. They are based in Drogheda but are connected with a lot of the international stock broking big boys in London JB, NYC, their course is a home based learning course to prepare you for exams and also provide a simulator to trade without risking a cent. It costs about €1,800, I never used it but I know traders that say its very good.

As always, do your research before parting with cash on courses...if you were to spend €1800 on this, how long would it take to make your money back, and how do top trading companies really view this in comparison with university qualifications?
Have a read of this also :
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=40462

bottomdog

Ixus is right, always check such courses out, I'd say such a course is worthless unless it is suplementary to a University degree. However, GSMS course is apparently endorsed by a lot of large financial houses., FEXCO, Merchant Securities London. and I know a few top Irish traders that have bought it and use it. I have heard complaints about the software having minor glitches and it does not link to the ISEQ. BUT, for a beginner looking to learn how to be a Trader it's is by all accounts a very good product, even if it seems very pricey indeed. . the training such a product gives is its real value. I would not part with 1,800 for it if I was a student, but if you have the money its not a bad intro. But I add I have not used it so I'm only going on what others are saying to me.

NewGrad

Not sure if this should be in a different thread, but anyway ...

I have recently graduated with a BSc in Maths and am interested in working in Finance - in particular the markets. I have come across a company
http://www.customhouse.ie/opportunities.php

Custom House Capital Online who offer a training program in the markets and futures trading.
Has anyone heard of them? Are they reputable? I have been offered a position on the training program - very low basic salary and profit share after make certain amount per month?
Does anyone know if good salary is possible?
Guys running place seem fairly good, some I am interested. Just wanted to know if anyone had heard anything good or bad?
BTW I think there are a few places still available on the training program for anyone with an interest and a finance/economics background.

bottomdog

Don't know them but I note that they consider 'risk taking' to be a trait suitable to be a trader. Nick Lesson eat your heart out. Traders can often have to make split second decisions based on available information much like an ER surgeon does in a fast moving circumstance. But a hospital would never use 'Risk Taker' as a critia for a job in ER. Neither do finance houses. `In fact, Risk Takers Need Not Apply wouldbe more apt.

Mikel

bottomdog wrote: »

Don't know them but I note that they consider 'risk taking' to be a trait suitable to be a trader. Nick Lesson eat your heart out. Traders can often have to make split second decisions based on available information much like an ER surgeon does in a fast moving circumstance. But a hospital would never use 'Risk Taker' as a critia for a job in ER. Neither do finance houses. `In fact, Risk Takers Need Not Apply wouldbe more apt.

Nonsense. They want risk takers. Then they want to train you and monitor the risks you take.
My advice would be maths maths and more maths because:
Some roles are very quantitative, not so much in Dublin
The finance is easy to pick up, doing it the other way round is tough
Maths degrees impress, it's a very effective signal that you're smart and hard working.

No degree will prepare you for trading, in any event 'trading' is too broad a term, and you have no experience to narrow it down.
eg, the guy answering the phones at goodbody private clients for 1000 euro of AIB is 'trading', as is the quant algorithmic trader at a hedge fund in London. Vastly different things.

Learn how to gamble. Experience winning and losing money. Open a betfair account, learn how to back and lay. Cut out positions, take profits, take losses.
That will help

Mikel

Also, don't spend any money on 'courses' like that. They won't help you.
Delta Index have a trading simulator, use that

Goodluck2me

DAEDULUS wrote: »

Could anybody in the know tell me what would be the most suitable course to do if aiming for a junior trader job once done with college? A more business/finance related course or mathematics course? also are there any courses (from any particular college) that are regarded very highly by traders/firms?

Doing my leaving cert this year and I really just need help in finding the best path for what I wanna do

any help appreciated

Some pretty good advice there, I went down this road myself this year, and obviously not the best year to be applying but I found that everyone commented and complimented the course which i did, which was Business and Legal in UCD.
You get an insight into the law such as Banking Law, corportate finance law, contract, tort etc.
You also do Finance, Investment and Portfolio mgmt, Aspects of Financial Theory, Financial mgmt and International Fin Mgmt, are all subjects ive done over the last two years.
Many of the employees that JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley sent over had done it, and this is also helpful when looking for advice.

The big thing they look for too is an interest in the markets so read the FT every day and get a wide knowledge base, and maybe specialise in somehtign you are interested in like Oil prices or German bonds etc, and secondly, Work experience will be key when you are applying for a full-time graduate position so get an internship under your belt and refine your interview skills.

Mikel wrote: »

Nonsense. They want risk takers. Then they want to train you and monitor the risks you take.
My advice would be maths maths and more maths because:
Some roles are very quantitative, not so much in Dublin
The finance is easy to pick up, doing it the other way round is tough
Maths degrees impress, it's a very effective signal that you're smart and hard working.

No degree will prepare you for trading, in any event 'trading' is too broad a term, and you have no experience to narrow it down.
eg, the guy answering the phones at goodbody private clients for 1000 euro of AIB is 'trading', as is the quant algorithmic trader at a hedge fund in London. Vastly different things.

Learn how to gamble. Experience winning and losing money. Open a betfair account, learn how to back and lay. Cut out positions, take profits, take losses.
That will help

I agree with a lot of this, I completed a Trading simulator with one of the banks i interviewed for and it was pretty much identical to the Betfair model where you back and lay. Learning how to make a market (provide a price) is as important as spotting niches in the markets (taking a price).
You do have to learn to risk money, i wouldnt suggest backing horses etc, as its -ev, but maybe get into poker with your friends and understand how you can benefit from the inefficiencies in the game i.e. where you are a 80% favourite getting paid even money when someone calls.

dunkamania wrote: »

BSc Economics and Finance

Actuaries and Finance.

If you are gonna do a commerce/business degree,you will most likely need a masters.

Both of these are very highly rated too, and friends of mine in these courses have done very well, E&F is much more mathsy than B&L but both are effective.
Id say if you want to go into research and dev then do a maths based course, and if you are more Sales and Trading floor based, do a mix of qualitative and quantiative, rather than just one.

Mikel

tbh I wouldn't get hung up on which course to do. There are exceptions, if you want to be an actuary you need an actuarial or maths degree. But for 90% of jobs they're all much of a muchness. Your degree gets you an interview, the rest is up to you. Also, after a year or two in a bank nobody cares about your degree, it's what you can contribute.
The idea that one of the main university degrees is more highly regarded than another is not true.

dunkamania

Picking the right course is essential, I have friends who spent years working in back offices while trying to get onto a trading floor because they picked the wrong course.

With regards CustomHouse Capital, a guy I know used to work there, heavily P&L based compensation, if you dont make money, you dont get paid. Most ppl dont make it.

With regards risk taking, its an important skill, recognising a positive expected outcome, ie 1 in 100 chance of winning €10,000 that costs €10, has positive expected outcome, is risky, but should be taken.

Mikel

No offence, but the reason they're still in the back office has nothing to do with the course they did. Nobody in a dealing room know or cares what anyone else studied at college, and there is nothing in college which would be considered a 'trading' course. It's got very little to do with courses and much more about personal aptitude. Once your education is to a particular standard it's about other things. Basically trading boils down to two things:
I'm up, what do I do?
I'm down, what do I do?

Some are suited and some are not. Everyone in the back office wants to be a trader. Most don't even know why. Also, there are many different kinds of trading, I could pick out an fx spot trader from a ile away, borderline ADD most of them!!

ixus

Mikel wrote: »

Everyone in the back office wants to be a trader.

Pretty accurate (having come from there myself). The amount of people with Masters in Finance working in my previous company working in back office was surprising to me. They all thought they knew about trading and could do it, but when you tried to have a conversation about anything other than Desperate Housewives, football or drinking (i like 2 of the 3;)) a glaze would come over people's eyes. Over qualified + underpaid = chip on the shoulder.

Needed to do an MSc myself though as I had no real qualification or background in the area.

Mikel

A huge number of people have Msc's now. But unless it's very technical like options trading, none of it is really that relevant.

Put yourself in the shoes of the hirer, the degree is just a signal. One of many.
Everyone goes to an interview and says the same thing:
"I'm really interested in the markets... blah blah"

Are you smart, can you learn, what are you like to work with, do you like risk, can you admit you're wrong, can you think under pressure etc etc etc

How are they to know this? SHOW THEM!
Everyone thinks they want to do it. It's the kind of thing they would like to say they do, it sounds cool.
But a good portion of the time you're losing money, you're basically gambling.

Therefore....gamble.

Find out if you like it, you may not. Bad career if you don't like it
Find out if you're good at it
and more importantly be able to SHOW it at an interview

Then the conversation will go like:
"I have an account at Delta and I'm short Euribors because I don't think the ECB will cut"
"I bet on economic releases at Spreadfair and I made money when the Fed cut 50"
"I'm long CFDs on AIB because the're at 6 times earnings"

That gives them something to talk about with you. Everyone HATES interviewing people for jobs, especially bull****ters from the back office. Make it easier for them.

Be different from everyone else. Bottom line, if you want to trade you can.
Then use it to get a job doing it

2 last things:
You better be an early riser
Post Soc Gen, BO to FO moves might be tougher

dunkamania

If you do want to avoid the 2-3 years in BO, there are some degrees that are better than others, and will give you a better chance at landing a graduate position, although odds are still long and its very person dependent.

Most college grads who say they wanna be traders, will never get there, either they arent willing to put in the effort, or they arent good enough.

Good point regarding BO to FO post SocGEn, although I dont think it will change much, the only way to lure top ppl to support roles is by offering them hope that they make the crossover.

DJDC

Ok guys there’s been a certain amount of misinformation in this thread and I would like to clarify some of the issues raised. As someone who has a summer internship lined up with an IB in a FO S&T role, I feel I have some good advice to Irish grads wishing to go into FO IB:

1) Course does matter, but university is more important. IB's only hire from certain universities and they are quite strict about this. So that means Trinity,UCD,QUB and at a push UCC,UCG,DCU,UL. They won’t touch IT grads.
Aim to do well in your LC, specifically above 500 points. Do a mathematical course for S&T roles (maths,engineering,acturial) but again this does not matter. I know Oxbridge historians and LSE philosophy students working in FO IB.

2) Don’t go near these prop trading houses such as the ones mentioned above because they don’t offer the training/exit opportunities working in a top IB gives you. Also they don’t offer research, structuring or sales roles like the IB's. Also I wouldnt bother with the AIB,BOI or davys grad programs. They seem like essentially BO and at a push MO roles. These Irish banks make their profits from an archaic oligopoly system and as such have relatively tiny FO section. I think AIB only wrote off about £100m in CDO's writedowns. Compare this to large IB's and you'll see how tiny their exposure to market risk really is. For the foreseeable future, London (or NY) is really the only option. Unless you want to be one of the monkeys working in fund management/ settlements in the IFSC.

3) Do an internship, they are extremely important. They are tough to get onto but give you a tremendous advantage in getting a grad position. Apply Oct/Nov and expect to have your internship by Jan if you are good enough.

4) Be confident. Being at AC's with all these oxbridge and LSE guys can be tough but you just have to see it as a level playing field at that stage.

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=259237

I know I may have offended some people in this post but I want to give good advice and not shirk from the facts.

Cheers

Mikel

dunkamania wrote: »

If you do want to avoid the 2-3 years in BO, there are some degrees that are better than others.

True, I was thinking more of trying to move from BO to FO, the best thing is not to end up there in the first place.
It can be done though

Mikel

Applying to a UK IB is a different kettle of fish, they look for 'high calibre' individuals of any discipline.
In a pool that size then the name on your degree will matter, you don't get past HR otherwise. Dublin is different.

There is also the question of where you will learn more and progress. Some places are more prestigious but you might be better off somewhere else learning more.

AIB take plenty of risk for a bank their size, there is a difference in exposure from the big banks, but they are not in that league. Being responsible for a small desk is possibly better than being way down the pecking order at somewhere bigger.
LOL at the oligopoly, how do you think the London banks make money? They see so many customer flows they have a good idea where the market is going.

Goodluck2me

Mikel wrote: »

Applying to a UK IB is a different kettle of fish, they look for 'high calibre' individuals of any discipline.
In a pool that size then the name on your degree will matter, you don't get past HR otherwise. Dublin is different.

There is also the question of where you will learn more and progress. Some places are more prestigious but you might be better off somewhere else learning more.

AIB take plenty of risk for a bank their size, there is a difference in exposure from the big banks, but they are not in that league. Being responsible for a small desk is possibly better than being way down the pecking order at somewhere bigger.
LOL at the oligopoly, how do you think the London banks make money? They see so many customer flows they have a good idea where the market is going.

They wont even look at your name if you don`t have at least a high 2:1 and excellent leaving cert.

Being in the bigger banks is where you will get the best exposure imo, as you learn from the best, and also have the opportunities to grow within the company and make serious money, which isnt possible in Ireland at the moment at least.

dunkamania

DJDC wrote: »

2) Don’t go near these prop trading houses such as the ones mentioned above because they don’t offer the training/exit opportunities working in a top IB gives you.

Also I wouldnt bother with the AIB,BOI or davys grad programs. They seem like essentially BO and at a push MO roles.

I think AIB only wrote off about £100m in CDO's writedowns. Compare this to large IB's and you'll see how tiny their exposure to market risk really is.

Unless you want to be one of the monkeys working in fund management/ settlements in the IFSC.

Congrats on the internship, its a great first step, S&T- Strategy and Trading?

Not everyone gets to work in a top tier IB, so if you cant make headway there I would look at your other options including Prop houses and local stockbroker grad programmes. Overly harsh on their grad programmes in my opinion.

I dont think the large writedowns arguement is valid, Merrils wrotedown $15bn and their market cap is only 3 times AIB. AIB's risk taking ability would appear to be far superior.

I assume you meant fund accounting and not fund management......

Mikel

goodluck2me wrote: »

Being in the bigger banks is where you will get the best exposure imo, as you learn from the best.

You may or may not, but only a fool would turn down the chance to find out.
The UK situation is much more competetive than here, thousands apply to Goldmans etc, they have to apply filters so yes you are talking 1:1, Oxbridge etc for starters. I'd say you'd need a lot more besides to get in. I seem to remember hearing about someone doing 14 or so interviews to get hired.
Anyone who gets in there has done well, but everyone who kicks a football dreams of playing in the premiership.

They're not shy about kicking you out either if you're not up to scratch.

AIB are on the buy side, they don't structure those kind of deals. That's why they don't have the same exposure.

DJDC

Congrats on the internship, its a great first step, S&T- Strategy and Trading?

Sales & Trading. Salespeople talk to clients, develop client relationships assessing what products can be sold and try to make a nice profit.Traders have to hedge these products in the market, make a bid/ask price and hopefully not **** up their P/L volatility.FO IB is basically S&T and IBD.That link I gave explains the divisions quite well.

I dont think the large writedowns arguement is valid, Merrils wrotedown $15bn and their market cap is only 3 times AIB. AIB's risk taking ability would appear to be far superior.

ML,Citigroup and UBS all suffered bigtime as a result of the CDO cock-up but to suggest AIB's risk taking ability is superior to any of these banks is ludicrious. AIB is essentially a large retail bank with little exposure to derivatives or other complex financial instruments.To make it simple, they didnt lose much because they dont bet much. They make the vast majority of their profits from commercial and customer lending, which until the recent property deflation was a sure fire winner.

AIB take plenty of risk for a bank their size, there is a difference in exposure from the big banks, but they are not in that league. Being responsible for a small desk is possibly better than being way down the pecking order at somewhere bigger.

AIB take plenty of risk?...By giving out an super duper size loan to a property developer?
You are correct if you are talking about boutique hedge funds which may have small specialised desks like an emerging markets CDS desk etc. They dont exist in dublin and are even harder to get into as an analyst.

True, I was thinking more of trying to move from BO to FO, the best thing is not to end up there in the first place.
It can be done though

This is becoming tougher by the year. The vast majority of traders in IB's now are engineering,physics and maths grads from top global universities. People will dispute this fact but they've probably never set foot on a london or wall street trading floor.

Mikel

AIB is essentially a large retail bank with little exposure to derivatives or other complex financial instruments.

How much do you know about AIB's exposure? They are not in the same business as Merrill et al, large investment banks structure securitised products and as a result have large positions warehoused at any one time. AIB are price takers and buy as much as they can within their risk limits. You might be surprised at the size of their credit bond portfolio.

The vast majority of traders in IB's now are engineering,physics and maths grads from top global universities. People will dispute this fact but they've probably never set foot on a london or wall street trading floor.

Maybe it is true, most of the ones I've met are not.
Again this depends what trading you are talking about. Many spot fx traders are barely educated at all, some are just barrow boys.
Some trading jobs require a phd in physics or similar.

I don't know whats involved in an internship, it would be interesting to know what they end up doing.

To be honest it sounds like your opinions are rehashed fron IB brochures, you might think differently with some experience under your belt

daveirl

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DJDC

How much do you know about AIB's exposure? They are not in the same business as Merrill et al, large investment banks structure securitised products and as a result have large positions warehoused at any one time. AIB are price takers and buy as much as they can within their risk limits. You might be surprised at the size of their credit bond portfolio.

Yeh AIB operate on the buy side. I want to work on the sell side starting off but to gain better exposure to products and a better understanding of the client-bank relationship i.e how banks cream profit off clients.Read Traders,Guns and Money..great book.You'll enjoy.

The buy side is a definite option when Im older and want a less stressful job.

In regards to poker/gambling.Nothing wrong with saying it in interviews.Just be able to explain how you play in a mathemathical way.Expected value,implied odds etc.If you dont like taking risk, trading isnt for you.Sometimes the markets will move against you, the hedging models will collapse etc. The mental strength of a champion snooker player are required.

Mikel

DJDC wrote: »

i.e how banks cream profit off clients

Simple, they know more than the customers because they see flows. Or get first mover advantage and cream it before others join in

Read Traders,Guns and Money

Read it , hated it. those war story books are full of ****. See liars poker, fiasco etc etc etc. And Das is a hypocrite

In regards to poker/gambling.Nothing wrong with saying it in interviews.Just be able to explain how you play in a mathemathical way.Expected value,implied odds etc.

True

The mental strength of a champion snooker player are required.

eh... no

Fremen

The UK situation is much more competetive than here, thousands apply to Goldmans etc, they have to apply filters so yes you are talking 1:1, Oxbridge etc for starters. I'd say you'd need a lot more besides to get in. I seem to remember hearing about someone doing 14 or so interviews to get hired.

Rubbish... I interviewed for goldman's strategies department with a plain old 2.1 from UCD

damnyanks

The big banks that come to Ireland to recruit graduates only look at certain universities

The big banks that come to Ireland have lots of HR and Marketing drones that feed you lots of information to make it seem like only people with nice degree scores and blah blah blah will do well.

The fact of the matter is these jobs were done by people without any real educational background recently. These guys are still around (Now the managers) they were forced to get degree's and silly things like that.

Markets are simply about managing your risk. THese arent risks that are predicted by the various models and what not employed by banks through consultancies and their internal teams filled with phd's.

to work in one of the large banks you need a strong academic bacgkround and show you're balanced. These people have as much opportunity to succeed as others.

The best traders dont work in investment banks. Most of the guys there are just manageing positions and have very little risk profile.

I'm sure AIB have plenty of positions and do have a sell side as well as a buy side (Like most banks). Write downs in credit markets is not in anyway a valid way to bench mark banks.

How much did bear sterns lose and they're tiny.

DJDC

The fact of the matter is these jobs were done by people without any real educational background recently. These guys are still around (Now the managers) they were forced to get degree's and silly things like that.

This is a common misconception. The fact of the matter is that these banks have always hired from top schools, especially in the US where the ivy league dominates. Look at where the CEO's did their undergrads: ML (MIT), GS (Harvard), Citigroup (Columbia), MS (Duke), JPM (Harvard). Up to the late
80's, it is true that many traders did not have formal qualifications but now 100% of the new 22- 25 year olds traders are college graduates. The one thing that will strike you if you walk onto any of the large investment banks trading floors is how young the people are. The majority of heads of desks are under 40 with very few much older. This means the older generation of traders with little formal education has been phased out quite quickly. Note I am not advocating this recruitment practice as the best way of developing/obtaining talent its just the way the hire process works now.

The big banks that come to Ireland have lots of HR and Marketing drones that feed you lots of information to make it seem like only people with nice degree scores and blah blah blah will do well.

These big banks you seem to have a grudge against, are still the best start an Irish graduate can get. The training you get as a grad in global markets in GS,UBS etc far outrivals the capital markets grads in BOI, AIB. This is shown by the superior starting monetary benefits and must steeper salary progression.

daveirl

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