7-Series or S Class?

bf

I'm changing car in the next few weeks and thinking of going for a luxury barge :cool:

I'll spend anything between 8k and 14k on the right motor and have narrowed it down to either a BMW 728/730 or an S280 or S320 Merc (1999 or 2000 plate)

Both are obviously well specced and it would be the newer model S Class (99 on) I would be going for. The S Class costs about 4 grand more - just wondering if people think it is worth it or have any opinions on these cars/what to look out for?

Cheers,
BF

unkel

I love big luxobarges

As for which to go for, let me just make one recommendation. On either, go for a V8 petrol engine, so in case of the BMW that would be a 735i V8 3.5l or 740i V8 4.4l. On the Mercedes, The S430 V8 4.3l or the S500 V8 5.0l

The 3ish liter 6 pot engines are too small for cars like that. Furthermore, the V8s cost very little more to run and could very well last better

It'll be very hard to sell a car like this on. Expect to drive it until it is worth very little. Anyway, buy a high end luxury car that's well over €100,000 new for €10,000 7 or 8 years later and you're the one that's laughing

TomMc

I think the E38 7-Series is much more appealing, even than the more recent models.

Eoin

TomMc wrote: »

I think the E38 7-Series is much more appealing, even than the more recent models.

I must be the only person who likes the new 7 series!

TomMc

The older model has a style and grace to it that is somewhat timeless. Very few BMW's have an understated elegance that compares well with say the older A8's. The more recent stuff - BMW, Merc etc are bloated by comparison.

mike65

The current 7 is an affront to good taste!, the old one better the one before that better still. S-class from 2000 is nicer than the 1990s Panzer as they slimmed it down by about 200 kgs!

I'd go for the Merc just to scare people in old Mircas!

Mike.

cantdecide

eoin_s wrote: »

I must be the only person who likes the new 7 series!

From the 2 you are considering, the S is the one to have stylewise- I don't know much about the available engines etc.

If it were the new models- it would be 7 all the way. I think they're stunning.

SouperComputer

I vote E38 too. Especially if you are DIY'er, LOADS of information on maintenance and repairs available. Have a look in the uk, on ebay too line up some nice ones, have them inspected (do a hpi) and drive it (most of the way!) home.

Checkout www.e38.org

If you arent a DIY'er be prepared to spend more than what you might be used to on maintenance.

Have a search of this board for E38 and youll probably find unkel's and my various rants on the 7 series.

colm_mcm

I'd go with the BMW, seeing as I'd be driving, rather being driven.

Henry Ford III

Octavia. No contest. Massssive boot and the torque of that 1.9 tdi

bf

Cheers for the replies - I have to say I am swaying towards the 7 series! I have found a nice 1999 728 with a full BMW service history in the UK with 78k on the clock

Including vrt it will cost just over 7k - very tempting!

SouperComputer

The Octavia is out of the running as its WRD (Wrong Wheel Drive)

Altho you could drive it backwards.........

Cheers for the replies - I have to say I am swaying towards the 7 series! I have found a nice 1999 728 with a full BMW service history in the UK with 78k on the clock

Including vrt it will cost just over 7k - very tempting!

I guess you should probably source some examples locally, drive them and see if yoiu prefer the Merc or the BMW. Or the Octavia.

Fey!

At that money, definitely the e38 7 series.

However, get the mileage checked professionally; if, worst case scenario, it's been clocked, a diagnostic specialist will probably be able to spot it. Will probably cost about €80 but is, IMO, worth it. Might spot one or two other potential problems, too.

SouperComputer

This 735i looks well cared for andhas some service records.

cantdecide

SouperComputer wrote: »

This 735i looks well cared for andhas some service records.

That's a nice car

colm_mcm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Octavia. No contest. Massssive boot and the torque of that 1.9 tdi

Signature updated

Anan1

The Mercedes is far too cheaply appointed, IMO. Have you considered an Audi A8? I bought a 99 one for €14k recently, i'd prefer it to either of the others.

Volvoboy

Speaking for the Merc brigade here, my dad owns a '99 S500 nice motor, but plauged with problems and messages to tell ya things have gone tits up on the dash display ''Malfunctions'', new heater cost him 500 ex labour, new cats, but to be honest, (Im speaking from my own experence here) i find them soooooo boring to drive maybe because i'm a manual box man, oh and i had a lend of it while he was in oz during the summer for 3 weeks, how does €120 for 200 miles float ya, to be fair thats me horsing the 'aul girl around, but these cars look the biz and drive so smooth.


-VB-

Cmar-Ireland

Another vote for the 7 series from me. Go for the 740i if you can afford to maintain it. The sound of the bmw V8 with a decent exhaust is unreal.

nialler

I have a 2000 S320, absolutely fantastic car, they'll be problematic around 90,000 miles (at least mine was) but she's fine now (total cost around 2k for repairs), huge barge and the 320 is plenty powerful but the v8 500s are not muc h less economical, make sure you've got all the extras. In saying all of that I've always dreamed of having a Bond 7 series, thought they were stunning until I sat in one and thought urgghhhh it looked very very dated inside, also don't knock a 4.2 A8 which is another stunning car, remember your tax will cost you €1,379 a year and petrol around €80 a week (that's me on 10,000 a year mainly city).

Mileage: City 16-18mpg
Motorway - 28-34mpg depending on how enthusiastic you are with the accelerator.

maidhc

mike65 wrote: »

The current 7 is an affront to good taste!, the old one better the one before that better still. S-class from 2000 is nicer than the 1990s Panzer as they slimmed it down by about 200 kgs!

The 1990s Panzer tank is a superior car though. It is surprisingly easy to park and drive around in traffic too. The 320 is slow enough though. My Focus feels quicker...

Anan1

As unkel would say, all of these cars really need a 300bhp V8.

MercMad

To be honest a '99 S-Class (W220) may be a problematic car. It was the first of the really "hi-tech" S-Class's and was built to a budget, as mentioned the previous W140 S-Class is a more solid and reliable car. The dealers dont know their backside from a hole in the sand so if you DO have trouble you'd better know a reliable independent specialist !

The BMW on the other hand has less sophistication and is all the better for it, its still loaded with toys, and it probably drives better, i.e its more like a 3 series on the twisties. The "S" can be good but only with options.

Having said all of that, I'll throw a spanner in the works by reminding people of the Nikasil issues with BMW's of this era, especially UK cars. Also I find that 7-series looks VERY dated or a little too bling depending on the spec !

If it was my choice.................I'd still pick the Merc....................but I'd also prefer to save a few bob and buy a W140 S500 and enjoy possibly one of the best built cars that ever existed !

Audi A8 is defintely worth a though though, but parts are very expensive and dealers couldn't care less about them !

Good luck !!

Fey!

MercMad wrote: »

Having said all of that, I'll throw a spanner in the works by reminding people of the Nikasil issues with BMW's of this era, especially UK cars. Also I find that 7-series looks VERY dated or a little too bling depending on the spec !

Nikasil was an issue up to a build date of March 1998, at which point the liners were changed. Also, it didn't affect the entire BMW engine lineup.

Spec is important in the BMWs, but the 7's tend to have a decent spec anyway.

http://www.accarsales.com

There are 2 728's in stock there, but I can't link to the individual cars.

unkel

For those of you who don't know - I've owned a '96 735 for nearly four years now. The only issues I've had during my ownership were a broken window regulator (drivers window) and some serious (just over a grand) suspension work @137k miles. The car just passed another NCT

MercMad wrote: »

I'll throw a spanner in the works by reminding people of the Nikasil issues with BMW's of this era, especially UK cars

There are NO Nikasil issues with any 7-series E38 with the M62 V8 engine (from 1996)

I agree with the suggestion to consider an Audi A8 too. As for looking "dated" - the A8 and the 7-series in your budget were introduced in '94. The S-class in '99. It's no surprise the S-class looks a lot more modern!

@OP - any reason you're still looking into getting a 6-cylinder engined car despite of several recommendations here?

RobAMerc

I think I would have to go with the Merc - they didn't until recently do the small to medium drivers cars as well as BMW but as far as top of the range they have always been king - I think the Lexus ls400 is the only luxobarge thats come close for the last few iterations of these models - I would also buy the diesel model rather than the petrol - its so well insulated you'll hardly notice its a diesel.

bf

unkel wrote: »

@OP - any reason you're still looking into getting a 6-cylinder engined car despite of several recommendations here?

In answer to this question ther reason I am looking at the 6 pot is the cost of insurance really - the 728/730 option will mean no difference to my insurance, to move up to a 735 or above and they are looking for serious money!

Its only really going to be a weekend cruiser for me, little or no use Mon - Fri, so I reckon the 6 pot should be fine...

unkel

bf wrote: »

ther reason I am looking at the 6 pot is the cost of insurance really - the 728/730 option will mean no difference to my insurance, to move up to a 735 or above and they are looking for serious money!

Oh really? That's a suprise to me. I guess the first digit of your age is a 2 and not a 3 like myself

What prices are you quoted for 728 vs 735? Did you ring around? The reason I'm saying is that I know the E38 is classified as relatively low risk. It's cheaper for me to insure a same age / year / value 735 than a 523!

By all means, do consider an S-class too. Superb design and it just oozes class and style. Most comfortable in class without being too wobbly. Still looks very modern for a car launched in '99

bf

I'm currently driving an A6 TDI and there would be no cost to change to a 728 but to got to a 735 would be around €600!

In terms of my age your right it begins with a 2 but is getting very near the 3

JHMEG

Having driven a '99 (new shape) S320 a few times recently I could not fault it. Tho the owner is having a few issues with cats and sensors. The 3.2 has plenty of poke. Has loads of toys and it looks soooo much better than any 7-series.

The one I drove has the 18" AMG alloys for that extra Bling, but they really do set the car off.

Anan1

bf wrote: »

In answer to this question ther reason I am looking at the 6 pot is the cost of insurance really - the 728/730 option will mean no difference to my insurance, to move up to a 735 or above and they are looking for serious money!

Have you shopped around? I wouldn't have expected there to be much of a difference.

richie_rvf

V8 7 series.

Long wheel base if you can get on - fully loaded.

You can find them in the UK still covered by a BMW warranty that is fully transferable to Ireland.

Fantastic cars and a surprisingly good handler.

If you can find a decent insurer then look for the 750's - brilliant car and fast too.

The list of options are huge on them too, you can even get heated/reclining rear seats, double glazing etc, etc...

There are some specialist out there but I would keep an eye on pistonheads.

Best of luck!

E92

unkel wrote: »

Still looks very modern for a car launched in '99

And I'd say still very problematic for a car that is at most 8 years old!

The W220 S-class was the second Merc(after the A-class, remember the elk test?, and the interior plastics were worse than a Japmobile at the time) to be affected with serious shortcomings in the quality department, and along with every other Merc that has come since is plauged witth problems. An American owner had a W220 S500 where the suspension actually collapsed.

They are a beautiful car sure, but don't think a W220 Merc will live up to the reputation Mercs of old had for being practically indestructable!

I'd put a bet on it that a W140(the S-class that looked like a barge (91-98 models)) will be a good deal more reliable than a W220(99-05), Merc actually bothered to build these cars properly, and they were like all Mercs that preceeded them quite considerably over-engineered.

As per Wikipedia:
The W220 S-Class also became known for a shift in reliability ratings from the S-Class' previously high-ranked position. Consumer Reports classified the W220 model's reliability as "poor," its lowest rating, and declared it one of the "least reliable luxury cars."[4] Build quality, however, was generally considered to be good. For instance, Forbes described the W220 S500 as "built remarkably well." [5] Early W220s were recalled for issues with the trunk spring and the hydraulic fuel line; there were no recalls for the 2005 or 2006 model years. Issues with the W220 electronics systems and other features are considerations in used models.

dingding

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=538488

Have a look at this Lexus.

legs11

dont suppose he could afford a barabus tuned merc, or could you even get them that old?:p

IrishRover

I see someone already mentioned the Lexus LS400. I'd definitely think about that as an alternative. It's funny that this car (brand even!) was created to emulate the success of the big luxury european cars, and while it was considered a facsimile by many at the time which would never have the class and kudos of the Mercedes and BMW equivalents, the brand has earned its own credible image over the last couple of decades and the LS400 has become an icon of styling in its own right.

I'd also consider the Honda Legend. I think they were a really classy looking car and the coupe looks fantastic. If it's just a weekend car I guess you wouldn't necesarily need the 4 doors either.

For me I'd like the extra exclusivity on Irish roads that both of these cars would have over the BMW and Mercs - ironic I know!

Actually, thinking of big luxury cars from the east, an even more leftfield suggestion might be the forgotten Mitsubishi Sigma - I'd consider it anyway!

If I was buying a 7 series I'd want to go for the 740 myself otherwise I'd think what's the point. A V6 would just seem like a "close but no cigar" type car.

GB15

A couple of quotes from carsurvey.org (http://www.carsurvey.org/viewcomments_review_83546.html)

"The bigger-engined models only have an edge in acceleration, as the 728 has all the top-end speed you can reasonably use, unless you want to blast along at 155mph all the time, in Germany."

"728 is actually the best of the 7-series in terms of quality as well. The 2,8-litre engine is one of the most reliable engines that BMW ever produced. The 6 cylinder engines from BMW sound great and responds great. I must say I'm amazed by the acceleration in my 728. Really good for a car that size with only the 2,8 litre inline 6."

I suppose the best bet as ever is to test drive the V6 and V8 if you can.

IrishRover

Ah yeah, meant straight 6, not V6, but anyway, the quote about "only having an edge" seems to imply that there's not much difference in acceleration between the 740 and 728. I'd have guessed there'd be a big difference and the way they are saying "why would you want to do 155mph everywhere" seems to be deliberately missing the point.

I dunno, I'm sure the straight 6 in the 728 is a fine engine, but to me it kind of seems like buying a 1.6 litre Subaru Impreza. Ok, maybe not as bad as that but analogous to that if you get me.

Anan1

The whole point of a car in this class is that it be effortlessly, imperiously fast. A six-cylinder engine is fine for sustained high-speed cruising. On give-and-take Irish roads though, it's a different world without the big V8.

SouperComputer

TBH I found the 4.4 V8 and the 5.4 V12 to be nothing special in the peformance department, at least for acelleration. It was a bit of a letdown when I drove them TBH. They are a heavy car so I would imagine the i6 not being much fun to drive.

Once you get the V8 or V12 above triple digits though, the car sets itself apart greatly.

If its going to be a weekend/roadtrip car, shop around and see if you an get a decent quote on the V8 or V12. Its worth it for the engine note alone. Although it might be hard to find a decent mechanic here who has worked with the V12's.

EternalSunshine

E92 wrote: »

I'd put a bet on it that a W140(the S-class that looked like a barge (91-98 models)) will be a good deal more reliable than a W220(99-05), Merc actually bothered to build these cars properly, and they were like all Mercs that preceeded them quite considerably over-engineered.

Thats the merc that is still on my list. I have had a '91 190E, '73 280ce and a '94 e200T but thats the one that i intend to get some day for the weekend cruises.

Or for those quick getaways when ur been chased by some bmws e28s (had one of those aswell )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQZYAd3g8-g

IrishRover

I saw a 2000 plate Mercedes S320 (W220?) today and it looked very opulent.
I think the W140 looks more "like a Mercedes" though if that sounds right.

Good clip there, EternalSunshine.

DonJose

You should not overlook the Volkswagen Phaeton in this class. It is probably one of the best built cars EVER.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygTqOIFv7fU

galwaytt

......and, not a manual gearbox in sight!

EternalSunshine

DonJose wrote: »

You should not overlook the Volkswagen Phaeton in this class. It is probably one of the best built cars EVER.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygTqOIFv7fU

Funny you should say that but I thought about that car aswell. On carzone there was a one for sale for 30K.

I do believe that it is one of the most underrated cars out there but they made such a mess with the front grille. It looks like a passat.......and an old passat aswell.

If it didnt have that horrid front styling it would be on the list behind the W140 (but after the w124t which to date was my best car).

Clarkson, whom i believes suffers from some kind of narcissistic personality disorder , rates it very highly.

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/article632732.ece
Inside Jeremy’s dream garage

Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder
Aston Martin V8 Vantage
BMW M5
VW Phaeton
Rolls-Royce Phantom
Corvette C6
Vauxhall Monaro
Porsche Carrera GT
Pagani Zonda F
Alfa Romeo Brera
Audi RS4
Bugatti Veyron

SouperComputer

DonJose wrote: »

You should not overlook the Volkswagen Phaeton in this class. It is probably one of the best built cars EVER.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygTqOIFv7fU

Best built? You have to be kidding me! Plagued with issues and horrendously expensive to repiar (even by this classes standards), especially the W12's.

skypette

love them all! but to drive the best is x series jag. 160bhp, you have to experience that(and it was a diesel!).dont seem to hold market value but thats a good thing as mercs / bmws etc never date so older models give good deal. whatever you get will drink petrol. you take a chance with any car you buy nowadays.

E92

skypette wrote: »

love them all! but to drive the best is x series jag. 160bhp, you have to experience that(and it was a diesel!).dont seem to hold market value but thats a good thing as mercs / bmws etc never date so older models give good deal. whatever you get will drink petrol. you take a chance with any car you buy nowadays.

Surley you mean Merc,BMW and X-Type (as opposed to merc, bmw and x series);)!

unkel

skypette wrote: »

love them all! but to drive the best is x series jag. 160bhp, you have to experience that(and it was a diesel!)

You're comparing a 4-pot X-Type diesel (basically an old model Ford Mondeo) with an S-class or a 7-series and think it is better than those? :eek:

SouperComputer

skypette wrote: »

love them all! but to drive the best is x series jag. 160bhp, you have to experience that(and it was a diesel!).dont seem to hold market value but thats a good thing as mercs / bmws etc never date so older models give good deal. whatever you get will drink petrol. you take a chance with any car you buy nowadays.

You might love them all, but have you driven them all? Ive spent many hours driving the X-Type Jag (albeit 230ishBHP 4WD) version and theres no comparison between the E38 and it. Despite the E38's ive driven being much older and having over 70K miles on them. Also I though it was interesting that you mentioned 160BHP like its a selling point. The cars the OP is looking at are 200BHP+ albeit a little heavier than the X-Type.

The X series ride is harsh and the handling is mediocre in comparison to the E38.

The E38 is head and shoulders above the X-Type in areas of ride, handling, asthetics, peformance (small margin though) IMO. TBH driving the X-Type in work was one of the biggest letdowns Iv'e ever head! I even chose the Cadillac over it, at least that barge accelerates and the engine isnt much bigger than the 740i either!

My 2c

maidhc

SouperComputer wrote: »

The X series ride is harsh and the handling is mediocre in comparison to the E38.

Compating apples and oranges here, but how could a ford mondeo (probably the best handling mid sized car in the world) handle worse than a car the size of a truck?