Court Summons for Careless Driving

mumbo

Hi all just wondering what you think - recevied a court summons for driving without due care and attention. Was driving along a straight road behind a milk truck and a learner driver there were 4 cars behind me - the L driver was indicating to over take the milk truck so was I, as was the car behind me, - the L driver took a while to overtake but was still indicating to do so so I waited for him to go before I was going to overtake - meanwhile the car behind was getting very impatient - making hand gestures to over take, flashing lights etc - I did not fell it was safe to go so I didn't. The L driver eventally went and overtook the truck so I checked behind me and then checked the road ahead to make sure it was clear and went - then collided with a car beside me - the car behind had decided to overtake me and the truck. I did not claim liablity with the insurance as I thought he was driving carlessly never the less it went against me as there were independent witnessess for the other car. I have now been summonsed for court.

Just wondering what you think - am I at fault? I will be talking to a solicitor.

kdevitt

I'd say you're 100% at fault. You obviously didn't check your mirrors before making your move or you would have seen the car. Judge might see it differently though.

neacy69

IMO u were at fault as you didnt check around you properly before moving out to overtake

unkel

mumbo wrote: »

I checked behind me and then checked the road ahead

But you didn't check beside you (mirror + over your shoulder). In my book you are 100% responsible for the accident. No harm though talking to your solicitor...

peasant

A good solicitor will probably manage to throw some of the blame on the driver of the car behind you ...after all you were indicating and stating your intention to overtake, so he shouldn't have overtaken you ...but the simple fact that you crashed into him shows that you didn't pay enough "due care and attention" or you wouldn't have crashed.

mumbo

Fair enough thanks. It's just the fact I was indicating to over take might have changed it slightly, and the fact the car behind was in my opinion driving very aggressively. I had my baby neice in the car and was trying to be extra careful - Typical - ah well we live an learn!

Anan1

As the others said, i'm afraid. If you had been looking, you would have seen him. Now if you'd been that bit quicker and he'd gone into the back of you...;)

DublinDilbert

kdevitt wrote: »

I'd say you're 100% at fault. You obviously didn't check your mirrors before making your move or you would have seen the car. Judge might see it differently though.

Your mirror will not catch someone over taking you reliably all of the time, you have to check your blind spot 100% of the time... do they still teach people her to just check their mirrors?? other countries have been checking their blind spots for years...

Although in this case if you did check your rear view mirror you should of noticed the car that was behind you, was no longer behind you...

I have some sympathy for the OP, as he was trying to do the right thing, and the driver behind him was being quite aggressive and putting him under massive pressure...

Anan1

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I have some sympathy for the OP, as he was trying to do the right thing, and the driver behind him was being quite aggressive and putting him under massive pressure...

So do I. That said, the OP, driving with a baby on board, pulled out without looking into the side of another car. In my view this is dangerous, rather than careless, driving. Sorry.

cantdecide

The guys are right. Please just learn from this mistake- keep an eye on eveything around you. If you had checked your rear view mirror, you would have seen the car behind you had disappeared.

Indicators should only be used to tell other road users what you are now doing- not what you would like to do given the chance.

R.O.R

cantdecide wrote: »

Indicators should only be used to tell other road users what you are now doing- not what you would like to do given the chance.

Hopefully I'm just mis-interpreting what you are trying to say, but the function of indicators is to indicate to other road users your intention, not what you are currently doing (which should be bleedin' obvious).

However, indicating does not give you right to proceed with the manouver unless safe to do so.

drdre

Hope you get a good solictor as carless driving can get you a hefty fine and you will get 4 penalty points which cant be taken off as its gone to court now.It can only be taken off if the case is stopped.

Mitch Connor

cantdecide wrote: »

Indicators should only be used to tell other road users what you are now doing- not what you would like to do given the chance.

What? To me that seems completely wrong. I don't need an indicator to tell me someone is changing lane or turning, i can SEE them doing that. I would like the person to indicate they are going to change lane or turn BEFORE they do so by using their indicators. Surely the name alone implies their use.

Jip

cantdecide wrote: »

Indicators should only be used to tell other road users what you are now doing- not what you would like to do given the chance.

Waffle. So for example what you're trying to say that when you want to change lanes on a motorway you should only indicate when you actually begin to move to the other lane, not before hand. Same on a roundabout, don't indicate the exit you want to come off until you actually come off at the exit. The list goes on.

MercMad

Surely the name alone implies their use.

.........flashers ??

I feel sorry for the OP but agree with the rest of the folks here. STill as mentioned a good solicitor may be able to get you 50/50 on the basis that the car overtaking should have been able to avoid you......................maybe !

drdre

Its not all upto the solictor it also depends on what judge you have and also what mood he/she is in.People might think im talking crap but ive been in a situation like this and it was all upto the judge.
Anyway good luck.When is your court case.

Curran

As mentioned above - OP unfortunately its your fault - even if it was in unfortunate circumstances.
As said before - how come you didnt notice the car that was being agressive behind you was gone?? And you did say you checked your rear view mirror?

Also, you and the learner driver seem? to be indicating to overtake the milk truck for some time, as if there was and opportunity to complete the maneuver but couldnt and still left on the indicator. If you do not go ahead with your intention, turn off your indicator and wait for another opportunity, then re-signal your intention. Dont leave on your indicator, wait for a gap in traffic and then go for it. Unless you are in the process of a maneuver you shouldnt be indicating (you dont signal a left turn, a mile from where it is)
The driver behind you, obviously thought the OP is going to be waiting all day for a better opportunity or that you had decided not to overtake and hadnt switched off your indicator and decided to overtake you both (perhaps in a far more powerful car??), signaled and tried to complete their maneuver - OP was unlucky the driver behind seen the same safe gap in traffic - but no excuses for not checking all mirrors and blind spots and knowing whats happening around you and hence the responsibilty rests you.

OP - Hopefully the court appearance goes OK and that its a situation that you will learn from without getting your fingers burnt too badly

mumbo

Thanks guys for all your replies. I'm due in court just before christmas and have made an appt with a solicitor. Believe me I have really learnt my lesson. I've never been in this situation before and really don't know what to expect. Can anyone tell me what will happen in court and what punishment I should expect to receive along with the mandoatory 5 penalty points. Hopefully I'll catch the judge on a good day!

Curran

Catch the judge on a good day, on a friday evening and they are rushing to get home before traffic and the judge might even give the driver behind you a good boll*xin'.....and go lighter on you!!
Quick question - was it a narrow country road or a wide national road?? The judge may also question the gap between you and the driver behind, gave you, if you were on a good wide stretch of road !!

Hal1

It sounds like the car behind was bullying you to make your move. Make sure you mention that to the solicitor, the judge might see it as road rage on his part and go easy on you.

AntiVirus

100% at fault, end of story

Bullying/flashing lights does not give anyone a reason to drive wrecklessly

mumbo

I did feel very intimidated by the car behind and that did infuence my decision to over take when I did. This was mentioned in my statement to the guards when i was called in to make it for the insurance.

Curran - it wasn't a narrow country road nor a wide national road - maybe something in between! Hopefully the judge will go easy - the case is just before christmas so I might catch him in a festive mood!!!

Seth Brundle

mumbo wrote: »

Hopefully the judge will go easy - the case is just before christmas so I might catch him in a festive mood!!!

There is nothing like the holdups due to operation freeflow to get someone in a festive mood!

AntiVirus

mumbo wrote: »

I did feel very intimidated by the car behind and that did infuence my decision to over take when I did. This was mentioned in my statement to the guards when i was called in to make it for the insurance.

The best thing to have done under those circumstances is to drop back from the car in front to give the car behind you plenty of space to overtake you. A lot of cars these days tend to drive to closely to the car in front.

You do remember that he has independent witnesses, if what you say is true you're solicitor should be able to questions them in court and it may prove he was also driving recklessly.

Good Luck

Marcus.Aurelius

Hal1 wrote: »

It sounds like the car behind was bullying you to make your move. Make sure you mention that to the solicitor, the judge might see it as road rage on his part and go easy on you.

Not relevant to the case in question. Careless driving was observed and he is being summoned for it. The actions of others are irrelevant in this case. He did not see the other vehicle on the overtake and collided with him.

No blame can be apportioned to the other driver, this is not an insurance case. This is purely a prosecution for careless driving, which he obviously did. End of case.

No judge in his right mind would say otherwise.

pete4130

Might be worth checking with the new rules of the road book, I think I remember reading that you are not supposed to overtake more than 1 vehicle at a time, as this is dangerous in itself. The other driver that you had the collision with was trying to overtake you AND the milk truck?
The rules of the road also say that you should only overtake after indicating you intend to do so (which you had done) and when it is safe to proceed with the manouver. This is plus and minus for you. The other car could clearly see your intent to overtake so it could be said that he was driving dangerously. on the minus side you might be at fault for the possibility of not checking your mirrors/blindspot before making your manouver.
I would definitly get hold of the new rules of the road book (€4 in easons) and see what it says and put that forward to your solicitor.
The fact the 0ther driver was flashing and beeping at you is dangerous driving on his behalf. Again the rules of the road book state that you should only use your horn when neccessary.
Hope it all goes well. I would disagree with people on here proportioning more blame on you, I don't know where or when its safe to overtake 2 vehicles at once when the the car in front was already signalling.

Gregor Samsa

pete4130 wrote: »

I would definitly get hold of the new rules of the road book (€4 in easons) and see what it says and put that forward to your solicitor.

The Rules of the Road are an interpretation of the laws governing road and vehicle use, and not the law itself. So showing it to a solicitor wouldn't get you very far. You'd have to look through the Road Traffic Acts themselves.

In any case, the ROTR doesn't say anything about not overtaking more than one vehicle, but it does say:

Give way to faster traffic already overtaking from behind.

Before overtaking check that the way is clear, check in your mirror and blind spots to ensure another vehicle is not approaching from behind. Give your signal in good time, move out when it is safe to do so, accelerate and overtake with the minimum of delay.

Which is the bit that goes against the OP.

pete4130 wrote: »

I don't know where or when its safe to overtake 2 vehicles at once when the the car in front was already signalling.

Indicating only signals a statement of intent, and does not confer right of way. The car behind had right of way, and this cannot be ignored.

As someone said earier, if the OP had pulled out a few seconds sooner, and the other guy went into the back of him, things might have been different blame-wise. I do feel for the OP, as it's quite scary to have someone driving agressivly behind you, but there are safe ways to get out of such a situation that we as road users are expected to use (as I'm sure the OP is now fully aware). At least no-one was hurt.

richie_rvf

I have to agree - to me it would appear you are 100% at fault.

Glad everyone is ok though!

I also agree that the thing you should have done is to drop back and 'invite' the car behind to pass - if someone is driving like that behind you and you feel pressurised then let them away, you never know what action they may take and it could have led to an even bigger accident.

Still, you moved to the right into a car, regardless of what was going on you hit him.

I wish you the best of luck at court - but if I am totally honest and it was my car you drove into I don't think I would have the same level of sympathy!

TwoShedsJackson

Might be worth checking with the new rules of the road book, I think I remember reading that you are not supposed to overtake more than 1 vehicle at a time, as this is dangerous in itself. The other driver that you had the collision with was trying to overtake you AND the milk truck?
The rules of the road also say that you should only overtake after indicating you intend to do so (which you had done) and when it is safe to proceed with the manouver. This is plus and minus for you. The other car could clearly see your intent to overtake so it could be said that he was driving dangerously. on the minus side you might be at fault for the possibility of not checking your mirrors/blindspot before making your manouver.
I would definitly get hold of the new rules of the road book (€4 in easons) and see what it says and put that forward to your solicitor.
The fact the 0ther driver was flashing and beeping at you is dangerous driving on his behalf. Again the rules of the road book state that you should only use your horn when neccessary.
Hope it all goes well. I would disagree with people on here proportioning more blame on you, I don't know where or when its safe to overtake 2 vehicles at once when the the car in front was already signalling.

If it's worth saying once, it's worth saying four times, apparently.

wil

100% to blame but with the right judge and the right story you could win yourself some leniency.
I assume at this stage the insurance costs have been awarded against you and this is just a follow up to prosecute.

The independent witnesses are your big problem, and I guess on the basis of their statements that is why the gardai are going ahead with the prosecution.

Do you have any witnesses to speak for you?
Was the car tailgating you - also a prosecutable offence.
Was it a high powered car capable of fast acceleration so potentially giving you little time between checking blind spot and it being at your side?
What road markings along the route?
Did the l-driver clear the truck very slowly so delay anyones ability to clear the truck after them?
Was there any other reason the other driver shouldnt have overtaken at that point - eg oncoming traffic, white line, junction ahead etc.?
While none of these divert blame away from you if you come before a judge with a particular disdain for aggressive harassing drivers, a well painted picture of an otherwise careful (I'll try not to be sarcastic) driver with child being harried and harassed by an impatient motorist he might take a more lenient view.

OTOH in light of some recent tragic cases, he could take the view, with child in car you should be even more careful. Your solicitor, if familiar with the judge should be better able to advise on the best approach.

colm_mcm

It's pretty simple, you hit him, he didn't hit you. there's no way they'll find him at fault

commiserations by the way, something I'd hate to happen.

knird evol

The court will probably ask if any civil proceedings also in this.
The very act of being convicted for 52 on this means that you/your insurer loose the civil case also, and pay over money to the other side. Court often unofficially sees this as sufficient punishment and won't go to town on you....but of course you have penalty points now, i think the court has no choice but to give you the points.
By the way, most people slow down when someone is driving right up their hole. Give it a try, its fun.

deman

The problem here is that you are at fault and I truly sympathise as the guy behind you was being a complete pillock. He shouldn't have overtaken you while you were indicating which also puts him at fault. But that doesn't mean the blame is taken away from you.

Sorry but you'll have to face the music here.