Disabled and work

IncredibleHulk

I am researching access to training/employment for disabled

What, if any, are the barriers to work and or training for disabled. By 'disabled' I mean all sorts of disability including mental health and not only people who are wheelchair . By access I mean availability and not just physical access.

Thanks

SerialComplaint

That's a huge topic. This NDA report might be a good starting point.

Amz

The NDA report isn't really great. I'd suggest getting in contact with AHEAD, specifically Tina Lowe who works for GET AHEAD, they've dealt extensively with work and training for people with disabilities.

BigPhil

IncredibleHulk wrote: »

I am researching access to training/employment for disabled

What, if any, are the barriers to work and or training for disabled. By 'disabled' I mean all sorts of disability including mental health and not only people who are wheelchair . By access I mean availability and not just physical access.

Thanks

Could you give an example of the exact type of information that you are looking for?

The reason I ask is because this is a subject close to my heart. I have a speech impediment that I feel is stopping me gaining employment although of course I cannot prove it as that would be virtually impossible. Although my speech impediment maybe not be classified as a ‘disability’ by law, it is still *disabling my chances of getting a job.


*No proof of course!

Amz

BigPhil, again I would suggest getting in touch with Tina Lowe at Get AHEAD. I can give you her email address if you drop me a PM. Her whole area of work is enabling disabled graduates to get work and further training.

BigPhil

Amz wrote: »

BigPhil, again I would suggest getting in touch with Tina Lowe at Get AHEAD. I can give you her email address if you drop me a PM. Her whole area of work is enabling disabled graduates to get work and further training.

Thanks Amz, I'll drop you a PM

The thing is that my speech impediment is (as far as I know) in somewhat of a gray area as it is not really classified as a disability (ie: unlike for example being blind or wheelchair bound) but it is still a really big obstacle where finding work is concerned.

RainyDay

BigPhil wrote: »

The thing is that my speech impediment is (as far as I know) in somewhat of a gray area as it is not really classified as a disability (ie: unlike for example being blind or wheelchair bound) but it is still a really big obstacle where finding work is concerned.

The definition of disability in the Disability Act 2005 reads;

“disability”, in relation to a person, means a substantial restriction
in the capacity of the person to carry on a profession, business or
occupation in the State or to participate in social or cultural life in
the State by reason of an enduring physical, sensory, mental health
or intellectual impairment;

So by definition, if your speech impediment is a really big obstacle in finding work, then it fits this definition. I'm not certain about the Employment Equality Acts, but I'm pretty sure that the definition is general, rather than specific, and would not specifically include/exclude a speech impediment.

petamour.com

FÁS have a specific advisory group dealing with this issue. Their office by Jervis Street shopping centre, i think has someone on this committee.

Also the the Irish Association of Supported Employment are holding their National Conference on 7th & 8th November in Tullamore. E-mail: iase@iol.ie, Web: www.iase.ie

Check their website if it's anyway useful to you. Spread the knowledge too if you learn anything!

IncredibleHulk

BigPhil wrote: »

Could you give an example of the exact type of information that you are looking for?

The reason I ask is because this is a subject close to my heart. I have a speech impediment that I feel is stopping me gaining employment although of course I cannot prove it as that would be virtually impossible. Although my speech impediment maybe not be classified as a ‘disability’ by law, it is still *disabling my chances of getting a job.


*No proof of course!

BigPhil
Sorry for delay getting back to you. What I was referring to is any block to employment or training.And your situation is a good example I was thinking of the FAS CE scheme and the way it is open market so that a disabled person who had ben unable to work for years would be in open competition with someone who would have maybe been out of work a year and maybe able to train which a disabled person may not. I would argue this is unfair as that way the jobs will be given to the more adept and the disabled may be pushed out. This is unfair because there is a very worthwhile element of training with CE where people are given access to training and FETAC awards. If jobs are given out on the open market the disabled, the very people who would most benefit from training, might be excluded. I think some of the CE should be reserved for disabled.
I would like to know what people think of this. Am I wrong?
With regard to your speech impediment you may be able to invoke the reasonable accommodation clause of the Equal Status Act which says reasonable accommodation must be made for disabled provided it is not over costly if your speech problem is in fact classed as a disability. In reasonable accommodation an employer may give you a position where your speech problem was not an issue

RainyDay

IncredibleHulk wrote: »

With regard to your speech impediment you may be able to invoke the reasonable accommodation clause of the Equal Status Act which says reasonable accommodation must be made for disabled provided it is not over costly if your speech problem is in fact classed as a disability. In reasonable accommodation an employer may give you a position where your speech problem was not an issue

I'm not so sure about this. When an employer is recruiting, they are recruiting for a particular position. Where a speech impediment would be an issue for this position, I don't think it would be considered 'reasonable accomodation' to give that employee a different job. If the different job is open, then it should be recruited in an open and transparent manner, to get the best person for the job.

Funnily enough, if an employee acquired a speech impediment during employment, then a transfer might be an option, but I don't think it would be a serious option at recruitment stage.

IncredibleHulk

RainyDay wrote: »

I'm not so sure about this. When an employer is recruiting, they are recruiting for a particular position. Where a speech impediment would be an issue for this position, I don't think it would be considered 'reasonable accomodation' to give that employee a different job. If the different job is open, then it should be recruited in an open and transparent manner, to get the best person for the job.

Funnily enough, if an employee acquired a speech impediment during employment, then a transfer might be an option, but I don't think it would be a serious option at recruitment stage.

You could be right I am not sure. Still oif you could show that an employer treated you differently because of the speech impediment you may have a case though not under the reasonable accommodation rule. I am not sure if getting the best person for the job can justify rejecting someone onnthe basis of a disability. But I think all disabled should become familiar with Equality legislation because I think it is really the only legislation available to disabled that is of any practical use. Look up the equality tribunal website and read the cases

RainyDay

IncredibleHulk wrote: »

You could be right I am not sure. Still oif you could show that an employer treated you differently because of the speech impediment you may have a case though not under the reasonable accommodation rule. I am not sure if getting the best person for the job can justify rejecting someone onnthe basis of a disability.

AFAIK, it depends on whether (in this case), the speech impediment would impact the ability to do the job. If verbal communication was a key requirement for the job, then I think they would be justified in not giving the job to a person with a speech impediment.

IncredibleHulk wrote: »

But I think all disabled should become familiar with Equality legislation because I think it is really the only legislation available to disabled that is of any practical use. Look up the equality tribunal website and read the cases

Aboslutely right - unfortunately, you may well end up educating some of the HR people and interview panel on the finer points too.

IncredibleHulk

RainyDay wrote: »

AFAIK, it depends on whether (in this case), the speech impediment would impact the ability to do the job. If verbal communication was a key requirement for the job, then I think they would be justified in not giving the job to a person with a speech impediment.


Aboslutely right - unfortunately, you may well end up educating some of the HR people and interview panel on the finer points too.

Well if a successful case were brought they would learn. You may be right in yout other point about the speech impediment, but I would not like to say for definite in case BigPhil would have a case and I may put him wrong. BigPhil yu can get booklets from the equality tribunal giving details of the Equal Status Act, you may have them already.

Regards

BigPhil

IncredibleHulk wrote: »

BigPhil
Sorry for delay getting back to you. What I was referring to is any block to employment or training.And your situation is a good example I was thinking of the FAS CE scheme and the way it is open market so that a disabled person who had ben unable to work for years would be in open competition with someone who would have maybe been out of work a year and maybe able to train which a disabled person may not. I would argue this is unfair as that way the jobs will be given to the more adept and the disabled may be pushed out. This is unfair because there is a very worthwhile element of training with CE where people are given access to training and FETAC awards. If jobs are given out on the open market the disabled, the very people who would most benefit from training, might be excluded. I think some of the CE should be reserved for disabled.

I agree with you here IncredibleHulk. I was actually on a CE scheme for 2 years (I couldn't do 3 years because I am under 35) and I believe there are three types of people that do these schemes. The first type (& most common) are women who are trying to get back into employment for one reason or another (ie: after having children). The second are the type that are long term unemployed and are basically forced to go on CE schemes for training/work experience and hopefully improve their employment prospects. Finally the third type are people that have various degrees or disabilities.

Looking back I don't think that the CE scheme helped me at all. I am 33 and I 'work' in IT now after being in the building trade for most of my life. I hurt my back two years ago (it is fine now) so I decided to switch to IT so I can prolong my health but mainly because of my love for computers. On the scheme my role was to fix PC's and generally troubleshoot any computer problems. Most of the time I was bored out of my skull and the training was very limited to me. Each person has a limit of €500 per year for training but as anybody in IT knows a decent course would cost at least four times that amount. So I did a couple of IT courses in FAS that didn't carry any certificates or help me that much. Plus I was only being €192 per week (it is more now) so it was a constant struggle to survive.

Now that I am out of the CE scheme I am finding very hard to find employment. I think that there is a definite stigma attached to working in CE and that carries on after you have left. When an employer see's that you have CE on your CV he is going to imideatly think 'damaged goods' and most likely pass on you. It obviously doesn't help if you have a disability too but then again nobody owes anybody a job. I feel that employers are looking after the interest of themselves and have no sympathy for a person who is struggling to find work and just looking for a break. I don't agree with this attitude at all but at the end of the day I am a realist.

RainyDay wrote:

AFAIK, it depends on whether (in this case), the speech impediment would impact the ability to do the job. If verbal communication was a key requirement for the job, then I think they would be justified in not giving the job to a person with a speech impediment.

Every job ad that I have read states that; 'excellent verbal communication is essential'. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM! So in your estimation employers would be justified in not hiring me because somebody else with the exact same experience and qualifications as me are lucky enough not to have a speech impediment??? Is that not discrimination? Oh I forgot, I cannot prove it :rolleyes:

Sadly you are probably right. I have been to countless interviews and struggled (to various degrees) in answering questions and have never been offered a job. Did I apply for jobs that were out of my league? No. If I did then HR would have thrown my CV away and not called me in for an interview. Is it because I have a speech impediment that makes me take slightly longer to communicate then everybody else? Hmm, seems like it. Remember I am not a mute, I can verbally communicate with other people, I am just not as articulate as most people. Do I deserve to be swept under the carpet because of this? I obviously don't think so, so how do I convince employers that it is not a gamble hiring me? Do they even care? Lots of questions............no real answers.

BigPhil

IncredibleHulk wrote: »

Well if a successful case were brought they would learn. You may be right in yout other point about the speech impediment, but I would not like to say for definite in case BigPhil would have a case and I may put him wrong. BigPhil yu can get booklets from the equality tribunal giving details of the Equal Status Act, you may have them already.

You have to remember that the law is always on the side of the employer. Unless you have concrete evidence, you will never have a leg to stand on. In my case I am 100% sure that I have not been given a job because of my speech impediment. I have no proof of this of course because I would actually need to plant a tape recorder in the HR meeting to record what they are saying about me and why I wouldn't be suitable for the role (that I know I would be perfect for). Of course, this is not going to happen and HR are going just churn out the usual excuses like; ''We hired a more suitable candidate for this role".

I am under no illusions here what so ever. Employers discriminate all the time and 99.9% of the time they can get away with. Unless you can get them to openly admit that they didn't hire you because of your disability then you can forget about any sort of action against them. Period.

IncredibleHulk

BigPhil wrote: »

Every job ad that I have read states that; 'excellent verbal communication is essential'. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM! .

Have you ever sought legal advice as to whether or not they can pu that in and advert. I don't know maybe they can...

BigPhil

IncredibleHulk wrote: »

Have you ever sought legal advice as to whether or not they can pu that in and advert. I don't know maybe they can...

No, because that would be a waste of time and effort.

Also I am sure that employers have already had legal advice to cover their own a***s in regards to what they can & cannot put in job ads anyway.

RainyDay

IncredibleHulk wrote: »

Have you ever sought legal advice as to whether or not they can pu that in and advert. I don't know maybe they can...

An employer can put anything they like in an advert, provided it is correct. If they put 'excellent verbal communication skills' in a job ad for a call centre operator, then they are fine. If they put 'excellent communication skills' in a job ad for a mime performer, then they could find themselves at the wrong end of a discrimination claim.

BigPhil wrote: »

Every job ad that I have read states that; 'excellent verbal communication is essential'. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM! So in your estimation employers would be justified in not hiring me because somebody else with the exact same experience and qualifications as me are lucky enough not to have a speech impediment??? Is that not discrimination? Oh I forgot, I cannot prove it :rolleyes:

I can understand that you may have good reason to be annoyed, but can I suggest that we ease off the on the rolleyes and the multiple question marks in the interests of having a mature, rational conversation on this important topic?

The reason why verbal communications is part of most (but not all) job adverts is simply because verbal communications are generally important in a work environment. That isn't discrimination. It doesn't mean all employers are out to get at people with speech impediments. It is simply reflecting the reality of life. Every employer is entitled to get the best person for the job. This may involve choosing the person who has the best problem-solving skills, or the person who has the best analytical skills, or the best design skills, or the best verbal skills, depending on the job.

To be honest, I was thinking about jobs like call centre telephone operators where verbal communication skills are actually the core of the job itself. I don't think it would make any sense for the employer or the employee to take a person with a serious speech impediment into this kind of role.

BigPhil wrote: »

Sadly you are probably right. I have been to countless interviews and struggled (to various degrees) in answering questions and have never been offered a job. Did I apply for jobs that were out of my league? No. If I did then HR would have thrown my CV away and not called me in for an interview. Is it because I have a speech impediment that makes me take slightly longer to communicate then everybody else? Hmm, seems like it. Remember I am not a mute, I can verbally communicate with other people, I am just not as articulate as most people. Do I deserve to be swept under the carpet because of this? I obviously don't think so, so how do I convince employers that it is not a gamble hiring me? Do they even care? Lots of questions............no real answers.

Yep, it does sound like you have a real challenge. I'm wondering what type of jobs you were applying for? Perhaps technical roles such as web developer, or product designer or accounts technician may be appropriate. I don't have any 'magic wand' solutions. It might help if you could seek open and direct feedback from interviewers after the event. Note that this would have to be verbal/phone-based, as no interviewer will want to go on the record, and I appreciate that a verbal conversation could be difficult for you, but perhaps you can find a way.

Another tactic that I've seen people with other types of disabilities use successfully is to be absolutely open, honest and direct about the disability, and present the interviewers with your plan to work around the disability, i.e. how you will ensure that your disability doesn't become a barrier to doing your job. I think that interviewers will generally respect someone who takes responsibility for the issue yourself.

BigPhil

RainyDay wrote:

I can understand that you may have good reason to be annoyed, but can I suggest that we ease off the on the rolleyes and the multiple question marks in the interests of having a mature, rational conversation on this important topic?

I'm sorry, but I find that quite patronising. My reaction was towards your *justification of employer discrimination, an opinion that I feel that needs to be eradicated altogether for the sake of a more liberal, open minded society where disabled people are not treated differently from anybody else.

(*"If verbal communication was a key requirement for the job, then I think they would be justified in not giving the job to a person with a speech impediment")

RainyDay wrote:

The reason why verbal communications is part of most (but not all) job adverts is simply because verbal communications are generally important in a work environment. That isn't discrimination. It doesn't mean all employers are out to get at people with speech impediments. It is simply reflecting the reality of life. Every employer is entitled to get the best person for the job. This may involve choosing the person who has the best problem-solving skills, or the person who has the best analytical skills, or the best design skills, or the best verbal skills, depending on the job.

To be honest, I was thinking about jobs like call centre telephone operators where verbal communication skills are actually the core of the job itself. I don't think it would make any sense for the employer or the employee to take a person with a serious speech impediment into this kind of role.

I think that you have a very narrow-minded attitude and I hope that your opinions are not reflection by the majority of society. In reality a speech impediment should not impair the judgement of and intelligent, open-minded employer. If a person is qualified for a certain role then they should not be dismissed because of a disability. Getting the best person for the job is one thing, but discriminating against a suitable candidate because of disability is another.

I think you will find that most people with speech impediments will avoid call centre/telephone operator jobs at all costs. But that said, some people with speech impediments will not shy away from jobs that require "excellent verbal skills". People such as Proinsias De Rosa have clearly demonstrated this.

RainyDay wrote:

Yep, it does sound like you have a real challenge. I'm wondering what type of jobs you were applying for? Perhaps technical roles such as web developer, or product designer or accounts technician may be appropriate. I don't have any 'magic wand' solutions. It might help if you could seek open and direct feedback from interviewers after the event. Note that this would have to be verbal/phone-based, as no interviewer will want to go on the record, and I appreciate that a verbal conversation could be difficult for you, but perhaps you can find a way.

Another tactic that I've seen people with other types of disabilities use successfully is to be absolutely open, honest and direct about the disability, and present the interviewers with your plan to work around the disability, i.e. how you will ensure that your disability doesn't become a barrier to doing your job. I think that interviewers will generally respect someone who takes responsibility for the issue yourself.

Thank you for advising me on what sort of roles that you would deem as appropriate for me. Unfortunately I think you will find that the roles that you have mentioned are extremely varied and would no doubt require good verbal communications skills (ie: client facing roles, the ability to give presentations, etc). I have technical qualifications so the roles that I apply for are mainly Desktop Support or System Administrator roles. So basically hands on work with a degree of verbal troubleshooting is required.

In regards to being open with my disability, this is a difficult one and varies from employer to employer. Some people are under the impression that if I am open about my disability then I am admitting to having a problem or exposing a weakness if you like. Other people claim that if I say nothing and let the employer judge for themselves then I am trying to convey that I don't have a problem with my speech impediment and neither should they.

Stephen P

RainyDay wrote: »

To be honest, I was thinking about jobs like call centre telephone operators where verbal communication skills are actually the core of the job itself. I don't think it would make any sense for the employer or the employee to take a person with a serious speech impediment into this kind of role.

I came across this thread that was linked from the Support Stuttering/Stammering forum (see my sig.).
I haven't read the thread fully but I just had to reply to the above quote extracted from RainDay's post.
I have a stammer which can be bad enough at times. I also work in a call centre as part of my job. When I applied for the job I came first on the panel out of about 25 people. So I can't see what the problem is with a person working in a call centre environment. A person with a stammer shouldn't be discriminated against for ANY job whatsoever. Stammering is a recognised disability (I'll get full details of where it says it).
Now sometimes an employer might not give someone the job due to the persons stammer but this will not be stated as the reason for refusal.
It would really sadden me if I heard someone was refused a job due to their stammer. I know quite a few stammerers and every single one of them has excellent communication skills and a lot of them have good jobs.

RainyDay

In hindsight, I can see I was guilty of generalisation and labelling. I apologise for any offence caused.

Nothing that I've said could be interpreted as supporting or justifying discrimination. The point that I was trying to make is that there is a difference between discrimination and selection of the best candidate.

If a person has a very, very severe speech impediment to the extent that they are unable to carry on a basic phone conversation, then they are unlikely to be the best candidate for a call centre job. A person with low or no vision is unlikely to be the best candidate for a bus driving job. A person with limited mobility who uses a walking frame is unlikely to be the best candidate for a job as a furniture remover. This isn't discrimination it is just common sense.

I accept that discrimination is still happening out there, and there is lots of room for improvement on the part of employers and interview panels. I understand that declaring a disability is a difficult issue. IMHO, the timing of any such declaration is important. I would certainly NOT declare it at application stage, to make sure it does not impact your chances of being short-listed. If you are going to need any reasonable accomodation at interview stage (e.g. sign-language interpreter or wheelchair accessibility), then I think it makes sense to declare this before coming to interview. If you are going to need any reasonable accomodation to carry out the job, then the interview might be a good time to put a plan to the interview panel as to how this can be achieved.

BigPhil

RainyDay wrote: »

In hindsight, I can see I was guilty of generalisation and labelling. I apologise for any offence caused.

Apology excepted.

The sad thing is that most people who have low opinions in regarding the capabilities of disabled people are in the majority of the population and this is something that needs to be addressed as soon as possible.

Life is hard enough but when you face a constant obstacle course over something as mundane as finding employment with the relevant qualifications then life becomes a whole lot harder. I would like to highlight this by using the case of Dominic Barker, a 26-year-old who held two degrees but could not find a job because of a speech impediment. Sadly Dominic committed suicide This is the sort of impact that prejudice/discrimination can have on people.

To the OP, sorry for hijacking your thread, but I hope that you found at least some of the information that you were looking for. Feel free to PM me if you want to chat more on this topic

undecided

OP There is definately a discrimmination against disabled people in regards to employment regardless of any laws.

I'm registered blind but actually have quite alot of sight. It has never affected anything i do except for distances eg. bus numbers. I have two kids and a busy family life which has never been affected by my disability. My own partner didn't believe I was registered blind until he saw it in black and white!

Now the problem.... my visual impairment is noticable as in if you look at my eyes you'd know there was something wrong. I've applied for numerous positions and have never been offered a job. I would never apply for positions that out of my reach would normally go for junior/trainee positions as I dont have a degree. I have certs. in accounts and information tech. But yet I can't get a job that school leavers are walking into!

Few years ago I went to an interview for office junior and after asking about my eyes I was then asked to write and read!

sorry for the rant!:)

Sunfowers

Did you know that FAS have a supported employment programme to assist people with disabilities into employment.The service on the northside of dublin is called Work4u and there is a similer service on the southside also.
To get linked in you need to go to Fas first and ask for supported employment.

undecided

what does supported employment entail? How does it work do they place as in do you get to work in your chosen area. Wouldn't be into retail or anything like that.

Sunfowers

You would work with an individual called a job coach who would assist you in looking for work in your chosen work area and the area that you have training/skills in. You would meet the job coach perhaps once a week and they would also help with interview preperation and stuff aswell, if thats something else that you wanted. they dont guarantee jobs but they can also speak to employers and try that angle of looking for jobs aswell.

IncredibleHulk

BigPhil wrote: »

To the OP, sorry for hijacking your thread

No problem, have you a link to Damien Barker story had not heard it. Also you may find some assistance at http://www.rehab.ie/nln/nlncourses.aspx in the employer based training. Not sure where you are click on your area to see what is on offer

Best

BigPhil

Here is the link that you requested: http://www.dominicbarkertrust.org.uk/

Thanks for the link that you posted. Unfortunately it seems that most of the IT courses are for beginners and I really need be doing more advanced courses and gaining more proper experience to make it virtually impossible for employers to turn me down. The trouble is that most advanced courses cost a few thousand euros so without a companies funding I'm going to have to find a different route to achieve my goals.

RainyDay

undecided wrote: »

OP There is definitely a discrimination against disabled people in regards to employment regardless of any laws.

I'm registered blind but actually have quite a lot of sight. It has never affected anything i do except for distances eg. bus numbers. I have two kids and a busy family life which has never been affected by my disability. My own partner didn't believe I was registered blind until he saw it in black and white!

Now the problem.... my visual impairment is noticeable as in if you look at my eyes you'd know there was something wrong. I've applied for numerous positions and have never been offered a job. I would never apply for positions that out of my reach would normally go for junior/trainee positions as I dont have a degree. I have certs. in accounts and information tech. But yet I can't get a job that school leavers are walking into!

Few years ago I went to an interview for office junior and after asking about my eyes I was then asked to write and read!

That's pretty rough. I wonder if it might help things if you declare your disability at interview and let the panel know exactly how you can make sure it is not a blocking issue in doing your job?

Without this kind of open conversation, it might be the 'elephant in the room' that everyone is afraid to talk about.

Amz

undecided wrote: »

Few years ago I went to an interview for office junior and after asking about my eyes I was then asked to write and read!

sorry for the rant!:)

That was illegal, they shouldn't have done that, you could have them prosecuted for discrimination.

IncredibleHulk

BigPhil wrote: »

Here is the link that you requested: http://www.dominicbarkertrust.org.uk/

Thanks for that link I googled DB but it did not show

undecided

I know it was wasn't legal but didn't know then. As for bring it up before the interview stage I dont really see why I should have to. Considering it doesn't affect it and this contry is supposed to be one of equality. I know that it's a bit of a stubborn attitude but i think it's a fairly justified one.

RainyDay

undecided wrote: »

As for bring it up before the interview stage I dont really see why I should have to. Considering it doesn't affect it and this contry is supposed to be one of equality. I know that it's a bit of a stubborn attitude but i think it's a fairly justified one.

You know it doesn't affect your ability to do the job. How do you expect them to know this?

undecided

I think if it's brought up before interview stage then you have less chance of getting an interview. If I do get an interview I will always bring up the subject and reassure them that it doesn't/won't affect my performance in the role. I don't know maybe I'm wrong. A friend of mine is a qualified social worker and the only jobs that he has managed to get is with organisations that deal with people with disabilities. Not that there is anything wrong with it why should he be limited to such job because he has a visual impairment.

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