Discovering the Truth...

mdebets

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes. When it comes to defining dogma and doctrines on morality, the magisterium of the Church is infallible.

That's not quite true, even by the Catholic Church's own claims.
According to the Catholic Church, a statement is only infallible, if the Pope makes it ex cathedra, what he has done only twice, once, to establish this dogma (over 1800 years after Jesus' death) and once for the Immaculate Conception. Everything else can theoretically be changed.
So if the church is infallible (according to your claim), why is not everything infallible, after all, this infallibility comes through the inspiration from God, so if the Church is allowed to change teachings she made in the past (what she has done on several occasions) and both teachings are inspired by God, doesn't that mean God changed his mind?

kelly1

mdebets wrote: »

That's not quite true, even by the Catholic Church's own claims.
According to the Catholic Church, a statement is only infallible, if the Pope makes it ex cathedra, what he has done only twice, once, to establish this dogma (over 1800 years after Jesus' death) and once for the Immaculate Conception. Everything else can theoretically be changed.
So if the church is infallible (according to your claim), why is not everything infallible, after all, this infallibility comes through the inspiration from God, so if the Church is allowed to change teachings she made in the past (what she has done on several occasions) and both teachings are inspired by God, doesn't that mean God changed his mind?

What I said was true but incomplete. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infallibility_of_the_Church.

God bless,
Noel.

PDN

I don't believe any church (including my own) can claim to have interpreted the Bible correctly in every single detail.

I do believe that straight forward exegesis using a historical-grammatical, or a historical-critical, approach produces clear interpretations on all matters that are essential to salvation. As for some of the little details, sure discussing that provides half the fun of being a Christian!

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

I don't believe any church (including my own) can claim to have interpreted the Bible correctly in every single detail.

Hello, I can't accept that God would abandon us to our own fallible individual interpretation. There are major differences between the various Churches so I don't see how God in His goodness would leave us in this situation.

1 Tim 3:15. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Clearly the Church is the authority on earth when it comes to teaching truth as received by the apostles. The Church, afterall, came before the New Testament.

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello, I can't accept that God would abandon us to our own fallible individual interpretation. There are major differences between the various Churches so I don't see how God in His goodness would leave us in this situation.

First of all, the major differences. What would you consider the major differences? Do you think that they are of detrament to salvation? If someone believes in God, and in Jesus Christ and has faith in them and 'Lives' according to Christs example, are they destined to be punished?

Second of all, the Jews were Gods chosen people, they were given the laws and the prophets, yet they became corrupted. All they needed was what God inspired, namely, the old testiment. Unfortunately, they got rooted in tradition and lost the meaning of their faith. Jesus reprimanded them on this. Actually calling their religious leaders 'offspring of vipers'.

Clearly the Church is the authority on earth when it comes to teaching truth as received by the apostles. The Church, afterall, came before the New Testament.

God bless,
Noel.

If its 'the' authority on truth, then why does it not resemble the Apostolic way? Why does it forbid its ministers marriage, and actually warn of certain people doing this? Why is divorce outlawed, when Jesus himself clearly states that adultery is grounds for divorce? Why does it teach of a place called purgatory, something that has absolutely no basis in scripture and actually contradicts Jesus' ransom? These are just a few things, but as I said, a tree will be known by its fruits. Doing like the Bereans, clearly leads to the conclusion that the RCC are not 'the' authority on truth.

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello, I can't accept that God would abandon us to our own fallible individual interpretation. There are major differences between the various Churches so I don't see how God in His goodness would leave us in this situation.

Why not? The purpose of the Bible is not to satisfy our curiosity on every little detail of theology. The purpose of the Bible is to give us the knowledge necessary to be saved and to live a Christian life.

Clearly the Church is the authority on earth when it comes to teaching truth as received by the apostles. The Church, afterall, came before the New Testament.

The Church, or your branch of the Church?

kelly1

Jimi, you're a real thorn in my side but we all have our crosses to bear

JimiTime wrote: »

First of all, the major differences. What would you consider the major differences? Do you think that they are of detrament to salvation? If someone believes in God, and in Jesus Christ and has faith in them and 'Lives' according to Christs example, are they destined to be punished?

Mortal sin is a good example. Let's take the example of masturbation (because Jesus didn't condemn it explicitly). Masturbation is sin against chastity because it is a defilement of the temple of the Holy Spirit, which is the body.

1 Cor 6:18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.


And remember God put Onan to death for spilling his seed.

As far as I know most protestants don't accept the doctrine of mortal sin even though the bible says otherwise:

1 John 5:16. He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.


See also John 15:6.

Grave sin (which is any violation of the 10 commandments) commited with free will and full knowledge result in death of the soul because sanctifying grace is destroyed. This makes the soul totally unfit for Heaven. Now if a person doesn't believe in mortal sin, they live under the illusion that all sins are equal in the eyes of God and don't realize their souls are in danger.

Wouldn't you say the difference between these two views is very important?

JimiTime wrote: »

Second of all, the Jews were Gods chosen people, they were given the laws and the prophets, yet they became corrupted. All they needed was what God inspired, namely, the old testiment. Unfortunately, they got rooted in tradition and lost the meaning of their faith. Jesus reprimanded them on this. Actually calling their religious leaders 'offspring of vipers'.

It was God's will that there be priests to offer sacrifices to Him in atonement for sins so you can't say that they just needed the OT.

JimiTime wrote: »

If its 'the' authority on truth, then why does it not resemble the Apostolic way?

Jesus promised to lead the Church into "all truth" and preserve it to the end of time but He never promised that the members would be impeccable. And neither are you or I for that matter.

JimiTime wrote: »

Why does it forbid its ministers marriage, and actually warn of certain people doing this? Why is divorce outlawed, when Jesus himself clearly states that adultery is grounds for divorce? Why does it teach of a place called purgatory, something that has absolutely no basis in scripture and actually contradicts Jesus' ransom?

Material for another thread. We've been over some of this before and I don't want to get side-tracked please. I could answer these questions but I want to stick to the point.

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Jimi, you're a real thorn in my side but we all have our crosses to bear

I like to call it being a 'wicknight':D

Mortal sin is a good example. Let's take the example of masturbation (because Jesus didn't condemn it explicitly). Masturbation is sin against chastity because it is a defilement of the temple of the Holy Spirit, which is the body.

There is the principle of comitting sin in your heart which Jesus condemned. Masturbation is usually performed when thinking of or looking at sexually immoral scenarios. The only incident where I see masturbation could possibly not be sinful is if your thoughts are for your wife.

And remember God put Onan to death for spilling his seed.

this is the famous out of context quote! He put him to death because he told Onan to make a child with the woman. Onan disobeyed God by spilling his seed. So the problem was not that he spilled his seed, it was that he disobeyed Gods command about producing a child! Its baffling that that scripture is still being taken out of context.

It was God's will that there be priests to offer sacrifices to Him in atonement for sins so you can't say that they just needed the OT.

i mean that they just needed the OT for their guideance. sin oferings etc were part of the OT. However the need for this stopped with the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus.

Jesus promised to lead the Church into "all truth" and preserve it to the end of time but He never promised that the members would be impeccable. And neither are you or I for that matter.

Jesus himself is the 'Truth'. He categorically states it. I know we are not impeccable, no-one is, but our Lord and Master.

Material for another thread. We've been over some of this before and I don't want to get side-tracked please. I could answer these questions but I want to stick to the point.

God bless,
Noel.

I do think its relevant to discussion, in pointing to the fact that RC is not the 'One true church', and that we all fall short. But if you want to leave it, fair enough. Thanks for replying anyway.

PDN

I'm at a loss as to understand how masturbation got entwined with this thread. Was a post deleted? What has it got to do with anything in the OP or in the subsequent debate?

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

I'm at a loss as to understand how masturbation got entwined with this thread. Was a post deleted? What has it got to do with anything in the OP or in the subsequent debate?

Kelly1 used it as an example of Mortal sin, which is a catholic doctrine, as an example of how not realising such doctrine is a salvation issue. I shouldn't have really answered it, but the Onan thing is just like, ahhhh.

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

Kelly1 used it as an example of Mortal sin, which is a catholic doctrine, as an example of how not realising such doctrine is a salvation issue. I shouldn't have really answered it, but the Onan thing is just like, ahhhh.

I must be a bit dense today as I'm still not getting this. So Noel is arguing that Catholics believe masturbation sends you to hell but that Protestants don't? Or is he saying that it is too serious a sin to be covered by the Cross and so requires a bit of extra roasting in purgatory? Maybe Noel could clarify?

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

I must be a bit dense today as I'm still not getting this. So Noel is arguing that Catholics believe masturbation sends you to hell but that Protestants don't? Or is he saying that it is too serious a sin to be covered by the Cross and so requires a bit of extra roasting in purgatory? Maybe Noel could clarify?

All sin merits Hell but all sin can be forgiven except for sins against the Holy Spirit, final impenitence being an example. If it weren't for Christ's death on the cross we'd all be damned because nothing we can do can wash away the guilt of sin. Agreed?

When a person is in a state of grace, their soul is fit for the Holy Spirit to dwell therein. Mortal sin destroys sanctifying grace in the soul and casts the Holy Spirit out making the soul effectively dead. The only way to receive sanctifying grace back into the soul is to either go to confession and receive absolution in which the Holy Spirit cleanses the soul or make a perfect act of contrition.

Venial sin on the other hand doesn't kill sanctifying grace. If all sins were mortal, the Holy Spirit would never get a chance to enter our souls. Purgatory burns away (cleansing by fire in scripture) the stain of venial sin on our souls and attachment to sin. All sin incurs temporal punishment which must be paid for in this life or Purgatory.

So whether sin is mortal or venial, Christ's passion remits us of our guilt and saves us from the eternal punishment due to this sin. But divine justice still demands temporal punishment so we don't get away scot free.

Turning back to the original question of correctly interpreting scripture, it's important
to know that Purgatory exists, not for our salvation, but so we will know whether we will
be punished for our sins. If we don't believe in Purgatory we live with a false sense of security.

Likewise with the doctrine of mortal sin, it's important to that the soul can be "killed" by sin.
Believing that all sin is the same in the eyes of God could be very dangerous, a bit like believing that all religions are equal. The same goes for OSAS, also dangerous.

So the differences between the doctrines of different churches is no trivial matter. It's vital that
we know the truth.

Whew!

God bless,
Noel.

BrianCalgary

Noel

What you are missing altogether is the fact that no where in the Bible is purgatory mentioned. The whole idea is man made and therefore not of God.

St Paul in his writing to Timothy says the following:
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

Now if you agree with St Paul you would test th eidea of purgatory and mortal vs. venial sin against scripture and find that those theologies go against scripture.

Now if yoy don't believe St Paul, don't test and maintain those theologies.

Another problem with purgatory is that you are saying that Christ's act on the cross was not quite enough for salvation. In order to maintain that salvation you must be cleansed and the RomanCatholic church is the only way, which counters Christ's statement of: John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me', As recorded by St John in 14:6. So now are you saying that John got it wrong as well?

kelly1

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Noel
What you are missing altogether is the fact that no where in the Bible is purgatory mentioned. The whole idea is man made and therefore not of God.

You are correct. But neither will you find Holy Trinity or Incarnation/incarnate. The Church gave us those words. Don't you belive in the Holy Trinity and the Word Incarnate? Of course you do!

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Now if you agree with St Paul you would test th eidea of purgatory and mortal vs. venial sin against scripture

I already did, but thanks anyway

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Another problem with purgatory is that you are saying that Christ's act on the cross was not quite enough for salvation. In order to maintain that salvation you must be cleansed

Those in Purgatory ARE saved and being cleansed of ALL stain of sin and concupiescence (sp?) before entry in the glory of Heaven.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

and the RomanCatholic church is the only way, which counters Christ's statement of: John 14:6

Now we've reached the crux of the argument! Christ, as He promised would never leave us alone in the wilderness! He gave us a Church to teach and guide us according to Christ's will! I for one submit myself to Christ's Church on earth out of of humility and the wish to do Christ's will! It's what Christ wants from us! He wants us to humble ourselves in the way that He did/does. He is with us to the end because of the Holy Eucharist. And that is the real act of faith...

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me', As recorded by St John in 14:6. So now are you saying that John got it wrong as well?

Absolutely not! I believe John 14:6 with all my heart and soul! But Christ's salvation comes via His Church in the sacraments. The Church is the vehicle for Christ's boundless grace. Christ wants us to be OBEDIENT to HIS CHURCH. shouting over...

God bless,
Noel.

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote: »

You are correct. But neither will you find Holy Trinity or Incarnation/incarnate. The Church gave us those words. Don't you belive in the Holy Trinity and the Word Incarnate? Of course you do! .

You don't find those terms, but you find definitions. Jesus is Immanuel - God with us. St John tells us of the word becoming flesh.

We know that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. The Bible defines God as such, we came up with the appropraiet term

kelly1 wrote: »

Those in Purgatory ARE saved and being cleansed of ALL stain of sin and concupiescence (sp?) before entry in the glory of Heaven..

I understand the place purgatory plays. But there sis no Biblical evidence to suuport such a place. Jesus act on teh cross was sufficient to cleanse us of our sin. There is none other needed. By saying there is purgatory is saying that Christs act was insufficient. There is a verse, I'll look for it that describes the following: absent from the body present with the Lord.

kelly1 wrote: »

Now we've reached the crux of the argument! Christ, as He promised would never leave us alone in the wilderness! He gave us a Church to teach and guide us according to Christ's will! I for one submit myself to Christ's Church on earth out of of humility and the wish to do Christ's will! It's what Christ wants from us! He wants us to humble ourselves in the way that He did/does. He is with us to the end because of the Holy Eucharist. And that is the real act of faith.....

Absolutely. I concede that salvation can be found in teh Catholic church. My mother-in-law is a fine example. Where does the RC churhc come up with the idea that it and only it can bestow salvation?

kelly1 wrote: »

Absolutely not! I believe John 14:6 with all my heart and soul! But Christ's salvation comes via His Church in the sacraments. The Church is the vehicle for Christ's boundless grace. Christ wants us to be OBEDIENT to HIS CHURCH. shouting over...

God bless,
Noel.

Salvation does not come through the church. Nowhere in scripturs does it support this. Salvation comes via the grace of God, through ones faith in Christ.

Sacraments don't come into it, not by works, lest any should boast.

So the doctrine goes against scripture and what St Paul tells us to do in testing against that scripture.

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote: »

Christ wants us to be OBEDIENT to HIS CHURCH. shouting over...

God bless,
Noel.

Since when does Christ want us to be obedient to the church? Christ tells us to be obedient to His teachings, which are spelled out in the gospels and expanded upon and explained in the writings of St Paul, St John, St Peter, etc.

BrianCalgary

Originally Posted by BrianCalgary
Now if you agree with St Paul you would test th eidea of purgatory and mortal vs. venial sin against scripture

kelly1 replied:
I already did, but thanks anyway


Christ says:
Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Here Christ tells us that all sin is the same. Break one little one and youre toast.

He doesn't distinguish between the degree of any sin and classify them. He does not tell us that some will bring you to purgatory.

Binomate

Truth is what ever you want it to be, so long as you have faith. Proof is blasphemous in my opinion.

mdebets

kelly1 wrote: »

Christ wants us to be OBEDIENT to HIS CHURCH. shouting over...

This whole discussion is reminding me of John 18.9-14 or Matthew 15,6-9

kelly1

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Since when does Christ want us to be obedient to the church? Christ tells us to be obedient to His teachings, which are spelled out in the gospels and expanded upon and explained in the writings of St Paul, St John, St Peter, etc.

Brian, I believe the following verses show that Christ (and his apostles) ask for obedience to the Church:

John 10:16 He that heareth you [the apostles], heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

Matthew 18:17. And if he [thy brother] will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Now please read again.

God bless,
Noel.

coffee_cake

kelly1 wrote: »

Brian, I believe the following verses show that Christ (and his apostles) ask for obedience to the Church:

John 10:16 He that heareth you [the apostles], heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

Matthew 18:17. And if he [thy brother] will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Now please read again.

God bless,
Noel.

That's more of a default though, if they won't listen to jesus, they should listen to the church
definitely a last resort though

kelly1

bluewolf wrote: »

That's more of a default though, if they won't listen to jesus, they should listen to the church
definitely a last resort though

How so? After Jesus departed the earth, who took His place? Who had the authority to teach and baptize in His name? Was it the general populus? No, it was the apostles. Did Joe Bloggs go about healing people/working miracles and forgiving sins? No! It was only the apostles and their successors (e.g. Barnabas and Timothy) who were ordained. Even Paul was ordained by Ananias having been chosen by Christ.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

God bless,
Noel.

coffee_cake

kelly1 wrote:

How so? After Jesus departed the earth, who took His place? Who had the authority to teach and baptize in His name? Was it the general populus? No, it was the apostles. Did Joe Bloggs go about healing people/working miracles and forgiving sins? No! It was only the apostles and their successors (e.g. Barnabas and Timothy) who were ordained. Even Paul was ordained by Ananias having been chosen by Christ.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

God bless,
Noel.

Yes but jesus' teachings are still readily available so people should still listen to jesus.

kelly1

bluewolf wrote: »

Yes but jesus' teachings are still readily available so people should still listen to jesus.

OK, so you choose to ignore the Church established by Christ on earth and you are free to do so.

Jesus is no longer here (except in the Eucharist) so who do you go to find the truth? Who has the authority to teach in Jesus' name? You can go to the bible but it's quite clear that different churches disgree on moral teachings and matters of faith. For example, who do you go to to find out if contraception is sinful or whether we are saved by faith alone, or whether purgatory exists etc, etc. Ever since the Reformation wars have been fought over matters of doctrine and it all began with 'sola scriptura' which itself is unscriptural!

God bless,
Noel.

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

Ever since the Reformation wars have been fought over matters of doctrine and it all began with 'sola scriptura' which itself is unscriptural!.

No it didn't. The Crusade against the Cathars was one example of a war over doctrine that preceded the Reformation.

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote: »

Brian, I believe the following verses show that Christ (and his apostles) ask for obedience to the Church:

John 10:16 He that heareth you [the apostles], heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

Matthew 18:17. And if he [thy brother] will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Now please read again.

God bless,
Noel.

Then we have to determine the definition of church. (thanks for the verses )

The definition that I see is
1) the body of all believers for all time.
2) the local body of believers

Matthew 18:17 is talking about the local church.

John 10:16 speaks of the apostles at the time and can be carried forth to todays apostles, those being the teachers of Christ's teachings, despise them and ultimately despise God.

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote: »

OK, so you choose to ignore the Church established by Christ on earth and you are free to do so.

Jesus is no longer here (except in the Eucharist) so who do you go to find the truth? Who has the authority to teach in Jesus' name? You can go to the bible but it's quite clear that different churches disgree on moral teachings and matters of faith. For example, who do you go to to find out if contraception is sinful or whether we are saved by faith alone, or whether purgatory exists etc, etc. Ever since the Reformation wars have been fought over matters of doctrine and it all began with 'sola scriptura' which itself is unscriptural!

God bless,
Noel.

'sola scriptura' is not unscriptural.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Tells us that we are to use scripture for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction. It doesn't tell us tou use anything else.

Mark 7:7-9 talks about jJesus' attitude toward tradition and how dangerous it can be.
7And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.


Tradition is good, but as long as it has been tested by scripture.

kelly1

Dear God, give me patience!

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Then we have to determine the definition of church. (thanks for the verses )

The definition that I see is
1) the body of all believers for all time.
2) the local body of believers

Where did you get your definitions from?

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Matthew 18:17 is talking about the local church.

How do you know? The Church is one as shown below.

John 10:16 speaks of the apostles at the time and can be carried forth to todays apostles, those being the teachers of Christ's teachings, despise them and ultimately despise God.

No, the successors of the apostles were all ordained (bishops/priests/deacons) by "the laying on of hands". See Acts of the apostles for examples.

Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church (not churches!).

Romans 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office: 5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Cor 10:17 For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Does Christ have many bodies???

God bless,
Noel.

BrianCalgary

Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church (not churches!).

For this verse we have to read the complete discourse between Jesus and Peter.

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it.[d]

So the rock on which the church is built is the fact that Jesus is teh son of the living God

Romans 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office: 5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Yep, we are all members, catholics, Methodist, Pentecostals, Baptists, etc.

1 Cor 10:17 For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.

That we all do. As many denominations with our different styles of worship.

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

And the fuller passage:
24Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

Christ's body is the church, not Petern, not the Catholic, not the Baptist, not thepentecostal, but Christs body.. Paul's job: to present the word of God. As commissioned by christ in Matthew: baptize in my name teaching them my commandments. (I paraphrase).

kelly1

Brian,

you and I believe different things to be true and therefore we don't share the same faith. Yes, we both accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and we are both baptized but we have little in common as regards our faith. Examples:-

- I believe a priest has the power to absolve sins - you don't
- I believe Mary lived a sinless life - you don't
- I believe Mary was assumed bodily into Heaven - you don't
- I believe in the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament - you don't
- I believe in Purgatory - you don't
- I believe in the power of intercession of the saints - you don't
- I believe in mortal sin - you don't
- I believe in final perseverance for salvation - you don't (I think?)
- I believe there is one and only one True Church of Jesus Christ - you don't
- I believe in apostolic succession from Peter to Benedict - you don't
- I believe in Sacred Tradition - you don't
- I believe in seven sacraments - you don't
- I believe contraception is sinful - you don't
- etc, etc

It's clear from the Gospel that Christ wanted unity in His Church. True unity means believing the same doctrines, worshiping in the same manner and having a common government. If I as a Catholic disagreed for instance with the Church's teaching on contraception, I could hardly claim to be in unity with the Church. The teachings of the Church came from Christ via the Holy Spirt to the apostles so its teachings aren't man-made or arbitrary.
Christ wants unity so it's foolish to say that differences in doctrine and tradition don't matter.


Examples of unity of the Church in scripture:-

John 17:20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

Eph 4:3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Christ and Paul warn against disunity:-

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects,21 Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

Do you see what I'm getting at? There is fundamental disunity between Christians! Many have broken away from the Church because they don't hold fast to the faith of the apostles. Heresy is rife. And as far as I can tell, it boils down to pride. Millions of people rejected the teachings of the Church founded by Christ on earth. They interpretation scripture with their own fallible intellect. Many say they are guided by the Holy Spirit when interpreting scripture but how can this be when the bible forbids private interpretation.
Millions have embraced the bible as the only source of truth and have rejected equally valid Sacred Tradition.

So basically I think your idea of church unity isn't really based in reality.
There is no true unity among Christian churches except for our common baptism.

God bless,
Noel.