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Cocaine found in De Menezes' urine

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    #2
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    No relevence to that case at all, the London police sure fcuked up on that one ....


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    #3
    Mossy Monk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28,128 ✭✭✭✭Mossy Monk


    Make him look like a scumbag maybe.


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    #4
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    yep, tarnish his image is without a doubt the top priority there. shameless tbh


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    #5
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Sells papers. A psychotic man drank 3 bottles of whiskey and murdered his family, a cannabis joint butt was also found at the scene. "christ, if he had only stuck to the whiskey..."


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    #6
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    kbannon wrote: »
    Can someone tell me why it is relevant to reveal that a member of the public shot by police was a coke user. Personally I can't see the connection between snorting it and the police (who initially misled the public) releasing a barrage of hollow point bullets into his head!)

    It will add credibility to the police decision to shoot, possibly showing what state he was in before being held & being shot i.e. was he fidgety, sweating, nervous, anxious etc prior to
    detention & shooting. These are some of the symptoms cocaine users display.

    Real suicide bombers also display some of these symptoms prior to detonation.

    TJ911...


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    #7
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    kbannon wrote: »
    from http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/mhmhcwmhmhcw/
    Can someone tell me why it is relevant to reveal that a member of the public shot by police was a coke user. Personally I can't see the connection between snorting it and the police (who initially misled the public) releasing a barrage of hollow point bullets into his head!)
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes)

    it's as relevant as saying the Police released a barrage of hollow point bullets into his head.

    It was a tragedy, caused by a police **** up.

    I don't think any of us can start to imagine what it was like on that tube train though and before the "Shoot to wound" brigade start up, there is no such thing. You shoot to stop and if you believe that person has a load of explosives wrapped around his body, you shoot him in the head.

    As I said, a tragedy.


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    #8
    JohnnyStones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 306 ✭✭JohnnyStones


    I wonder if the cops that did the shooting took a drugs test afterwards?:confused:

    if there, anything like some of the copper's i know; :rolleyes:


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    #9
    Huggles
    Registered Users Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭Huggles


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    you shoot him in the head.

    5 times?

    Fred have you been following this evidence?

    The plain clothes officer following had him apprehended and had his arms by his side when CO19 opened fire with no warning.


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    #10
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    TheGooner wrote: »
    5 times?

    A bit excessive all right..

    TheGooner wrote: »
    The plain clothes officer following had him apprehended and had his arms by his side when CO19 opened fire with no warning.

    Still not enough control. The officers concerned would have had an honest held belief that their lives & the lives of others around them was in imminent lethal danger from the information received from the surveillance unit.

    TJ911...


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    #11
    Terry
    Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    This is the guy who was shot shot because cops thought he might have been a suicide bomber, right?

    Absolutely no relevance to the case.


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    #12
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Maybe the police saw a bit around his nose and thought it was anthrax (to which he is apparantly not susceptible)...


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    #13
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    Trojan911 wrote: »
    It will add credibility to the police decision to shoot, possibly showing what state he was in before being held & being shot i.e. was he fidgety, sweating, nervous, anxious etc prior to
    detention & shooting. These are some of the symptoms cocaine users display.

    Real suicide bombers also display some of these symptoms prior to detonation.

    TJ911...

    i dont think this can be very accurate, there was no trace of cocaine found in his blood, so he had not taken any that morning anyway, i doubt he would have been showing any effects of it..... maybe he started getting nervous and anxious and sweaty when they started firing bullets at him????


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    #14
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    kryogen wrote: »
    i dont think this can be very accurate, there was no trace of cocaine found in his blood, so he had not taken any that morning anyway, i doubt he would have been showing any effects of it..... maybe he started getting nervous and anxious and sweaty when they started firing bullets at him????


    Ya, that's why I said possibly. We will never what exatly happened on that day apart from a man was shot dead allegedly by Police. There was speculation that it was MI5 or SAS that did the shooting but as the Met are in the frame we will have to go with that.

    TJ911...


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    #15
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Trojan911 wrote: »
    It will add credibility to the police decision to shoot, possibly showing what state he was in before being held & being shot i.e. was he fidgety, sweating, nervous, anxious etc prior to
    detention & shooting. These are some of the symptoms cocaine users display.

    Real suicide bombers also display some of these symptoms prior to detonation.

    TJ911...

    Whilst this may be true, I am unsure as to how much of a difference it would have made to the PC if the guy was fidgety/sweating/etc or not. Blame has already been laid and accepted, I can't see how the release of this information can help anything.
    5 times?

    What, once would have been OK, but five is overdoing it?

    NTM


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    #16
    monkey tennis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭monkey tennis


    Jesus, now that's zero tolerance! :eek:


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    #17
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    Iv'e only just read the link. A pathologist told the court....

    He said the toxicology report showed that as well as cocaine in the urine, 0.44 milligrams of benzoylecognine per ml were found in the blood.

    Ronald Thwaites QC, defending, asked if cocaine had the potential to cause “abnormal or unusual behaviour”.

    Dr Shorrock said: “It is a euphoric drug. It is a drug that lifts your mind, it is a stimulant drug.

    “It can make you do things that to somebody who hadn’t used the drug might seem inappropriate and it can make people behave aggressively.”

    But the pathologist added that the effects would not necessarily be the same for every individual.

    That's probably the reason why it was released...

    TJ911...


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    #18
    Eoin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 21,238 CMod ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    kryogen wrote:
    yep, tarnish his image is without a doubt the top priority there. shameless tbh

    Had the police released this information before the trial? Or is it just one piece of evidence from what I am sure is a lengthy trial, that the media have seized on? Bit premature to call it a smear campaign at this stage.


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    #19
    DonJose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭DonJose


    When armed police tell you to stop, especially a couple of days after dozens of people were killed in suicide bombings, you f**king stop.


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    #20
    whiskeyman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭whiskeyman


    latchyco wrote: »
    No relevence to that case at all, the London police sure fcuked up on that one ....
    Terry wrote: »
    Absolutely no relevance to the case.

    It has TOTAL relevance because of the below... didn't you read this bit in the link at all??
    Trojan911 wrote: »
    Iv'e only just read the link. A pathologist told the court....

    He said the toxicology report showed that as well as cocaine in the urine, 0.44 milligrams of benzoylecognine per ml were found in the blood.

    Ronald Thwaites QC, defending, asked if cocaine had the potential to cause “abnormal or unusual behaviour”.

    Dr Shorrock said: “It is a euphoric drug. It is a drug that lifts your mind, it is a stimulant drug.

    “It can make you do things that to somebody who hadn’t used the drug might seem inappropriate and it can make people behave aggressively.”

    Something like this may have influenced the victims behaviour, and has to be taken into account. There's not a hope in hell it's a smear campaign. All the Met can do is damage limitation from this case.
    It was right to be brought up in court, however the issue here should really be how the media report it.


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    #21
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,896 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Trojan911 wrote: »
    It will add credibility to the police decision to shoot, possibly showing what state he was in before being held & being shot i.e. was he fidgety, sweating, nervous, anxious etc prior to
    detention & shooting. These are some of the symptoms cocaine users display.

    Real suicide bombers also display some of these symptoms prior to detonation.

    TJ911...
    As IM sure do many others on a train. Maybe they all should have been shot!
    TheGooner wrote: »
    5 times?

    Fred have you been following this evidence?

    The plain clothes officer following had him apprehended and had his arms by his side when CO19 opened fire with no warning.
    There were apparently 11 shots fired:
    7 into the front of his head*
    1 into his shoulder
    3 missed De Menezes
    It should also be pointed out that (according to wikipedia) these bullets are illegal in warfare (under the Hague convention 1899) but widely used in law enforcement.

    * his cousin claims to have seen him being shot from the rear.
    DonJose wrote: »
    When armed police tell you to stop, especially a couple of days after dozens of people were killed in suicide bombings, you f**king stop.
    He had been stopped. He was sitting in his seat when he was seemingly restrained by an undercover officer. There is no record or witness to the claim that police shouted 'police' or 'stop' or whatever but even if there was, he didn't have time to do anything.


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    #22
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    After reading the whole article, it is only right that all the facts be brought out in court. Whether or not it is a ) relevant and b) effective to the Met's legal defense strikes me as being something for the jury to decide.

    NTM


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    #23
    Huggles
    Registered Users Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭Huggles


    Manic Moran wrote: »

    What, once would have been OK, but five is overdoing it?

    NTM

    If you read what I quoted the user said you shoot to stop. Surely one shot in the head is enough to stop...thats why i said 5 times.


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    #24
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    kbannon wrote: »
    As IM sure do many others on a train. Maybe they all should have been shot!

    The difference being the others were not under surveillance.

    TJ911...


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    #25
    Eoin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 21,238 CMod ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    kbannon wrote: »
    As IM sure do many others on a train. Maybe they all should have been shot!

    There were apparently 11 shots fired:
    7 into the front of his head*
    1 into his shoulder
    3 missed De Menezes
    It should also be pointed out that (according to wikipedia) these bullets are illegal in warfare (under the Hague convention 1899) but widely used in law enforcement.

    * his cousin claims to have seen him being shot from the rear.
    He had been stopped. He was sitting in his seat when he was seemingly restrained by an undercover officer. There is no record or witness to the claim that police shouted 'police' or 'stop' or whatever but even if there was, he didn't have time to do anything.

    Was the point of the thread whether he should have been shot or not, or that testimony from the coroner was heard in court, and reported on?


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    #26
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,896 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I started the thread because I don't see how whether or not cocaine was in his system is relevant to the investigation.


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    #27
    Eoin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 21,238 CMod ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    kbannon wrote: »
    I started the thread because I don't see how whether or not cocaine was in his system is relevant to the investigation.
    Everything and anything could be relevant to the investigation - none of us are in a position to judge waht a coroner should or should not be saying in court.


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    #28
    Gyalist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Gyalist


    DonJose wrote: »
    When armed police tell you to stop, especially a couple of days after dozens of people were killed in suicide bombings, you f**king stop.

    There has never been any evidence that the police told him to stop. In fact, all the evidence so far is to the contrary. He walked normally into the station, didn't jump the ticket barrier as was as first reported either.


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    #29
    Wertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    Ha, was just about to come on and post the same thread.
    What an insipid and unnecessary attack on a man who died in such circumstances...his family didn't rally need to know that part and it has no relevance at all IMO....I mean what, are they trying to say he was on a paranoid one and that that's what made him run (and get shot)?
    Or is it just character assasination so the Met can try and drag their arse out of the fire soemwhat on the whole blunder?


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    #30
    Eoin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 21,238 CMod ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    So, who should decide what facts are not relevant in an investigation?


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    #31
    Wertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    The coroner obviously and for that he needs to presented with those facts...but does the public?
    I'm in no position to estimate how much coke he took to lead to the level of the metabolite the expert witness refers to, but then he doesn't mention it either. The very fact that there's cocaine in the urine means it was taken in the last 24 hrs...but I don't see any evidence presented concluding roughly the dose that is indicated by the level of the metabolite.
    I mention this because I like some others on here will have done some moderate amount of charley in the past and most of us will have managed to get out of bed the next day and be regular enough to pass ourselves off as a "normal" member of society....unless that is we've done a ridiculous amount or have a fiendish regular habit.
    By not drawing any conclussion as to what dosage De Menezes may have taken, you somewhat slur his character in the eyes of the judge, when it may just have been a gram or less, which isn't going to leave you looking like the mess that they are seemingly trying to make him out to be.
    ... so why should this be released to the public eye, since the guy is not the one on trial here....or is he?


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