PSNI at it again!

cranmore

45 cops quit to dodge probes

Photo: Hugh Orde

PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde has been challenged by Sinn Féin to explain why 45 PSNI officers have been allowed to escape punishment for a range of criminal offences - including downloading child pornography - by taking early retirement.
The Policing Board has been told that 11 PSNI officers have been sacked in the past 12 months for various offences. But another 45 have got away with their pensions by taking early retirement.
Offences include assault, unauthorised discharging of weapons, loss of a firearm, theft, drink-driving and fraud.
Sinn Féin Policing Board member Martina Anderson said officers have been allowed to evade investigation or prosecution. She added:
“It also a concern that, by taking early retirement, these officers are not obliged to co-operate with any Police Ombudsman investigation.”
Articles may not be reproduced without the consent of An Phoblacht. For further information, please contact editor@anphoblacht.com


Article taken from www.anphoblacht.com


I think this is another example of the corruption that is rotting the core of this island.

Jackie laughlin

For once I agree with SF/IRA.

Fratton Fred

shocking. this sort of thing should be the sole privilage of high court judges only:rolleyes:

Serioulsy, If people break the law, they shold face the consequences, moreso if they are an official who is meant to uphold the law.

I can't help feeling though, if it gets rid of the dross in the PSNI then it can't be all bad.

gandalf

cranmore and you're opinion on this is what? Its in the charter for this forum that you don't quote or link to articles without adding some of your own opinion. I will close this discussion later if you do not add your opinion.

Changed the thread title as it was inaccurate.

Mick86

Simply leaving the PSNI would not get them off the hook surely. They are still subject to prosecution. I would be inclined to take the allegations more seriously if the source wasn't An Phoblacht.

Zombrex

Mick86 wrote: »

Simply leaving the PSNI would not get them off the hook surely. They are still subject to prosecution.

I was thinking the same thing.

I'm not sure how they would escape a criminal charge by simply retiring. I can understand how someone can escape an internal discipline hearing, but not a criminal charge.

Where is the original article?

leninbenjamin

Wicknight wrote: »

Where is the original article?

editorials

http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/21062


I hate this type of crap. if they broke the law they should be convicted, what kind of message does this send out?

then again, this is being reported on anphoblacht... hmmm....

Victor

cranmore wrote: »

PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde has been challenged by Sinn Féin to explain why 45 PSNI officers have been allowed to escape punishment for a range of criminal offences - including downloading child pornography - by taking early retirement.

The wording is slightly selective. They are escaping internal disciplinary punishment, but are still subject to prosecution.

gandalf

OP added their opinion, thread reopened.

Hagar

Mick86 wrote: »

Simply leaving the PSNI would not get them off the hook surely. They are still subject to prosecution. I would be inclined to take the allegations more seriously if the source wasn't An Phoblacht.

I think the reality is that nothing will be followed up on in a court of law. The PSNI are not reknowned for washing their dirty linen in public. No charges will ever be brought. Who is going to investigate them? Their comrades? I don't think so.

If there are no investigations then the incidents never took place did they? There's a lot of vested interests, both North and South, intent on making the PSNI an acceptable police force and anything that puts them in a bad light is going to get a quick coat of whitewash.

As for the source, isn't it a pity none of the major newspapers picked up on the story. It would make you wonder why? Political pressure perhaps? There must be truth in the story or legal action would be pending against An Phoblacht. I'm sure there are many who would welcome such an action as a legal way to shut up the voice of the Nationalist community in N.Ireland.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote: »

I think the reality is that nothing will be followed up on in a court of law. The PSNI are not reknowned for washing their dirty linen in public. No charges will ever be brought. Who is going to investigate them? Their comrades? I don't think so.

I think that will depend on how this is spun. There is an eagerness to show that things have changed and the PSNI are not the RUC, so if it is the PSNI washing the RUC's dirty laundry in public then i think it may well happen.

Hagar

There's alot of spin all right. I think there is an eagerness to make it appear that things have changed even if they haven't. I suppose there is a genuine hope that change is coming but a lot of people doubt that there has been any real change as yet. By and large they are still the same people with the same personal beliefs that served them well as members of the RUC. Only the trappings of power have changed. On the ground it's business as usual.

purple'n'gold

Help me out here, and please correct me if I’m wrong. Policemen in northern Ireland caught downloading child pornography can escape prosecution by resigning from the force?

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Serioulsy, If people break the law, they shold face the consequences, moreso if they are an official who is meant to uphold the law.

Will that include the hundreds of murders carried out by the brits during the troubles, and the God knows how many attrocities they are carrying out in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment ?

Or will it be like what they did during the 25 years of the troubles when after almost every single murder we had a british secretary of state or army spokesperson coming on TV to say something like - " This is an internal matter for the army.......a full investigation has been carried out and the army sees no point in further investigation or discussion".

Still, we know who gave the unoffical justice to the brits

gandalf

So have any reliable sources reported this or is it just the Chuckie News Network?

Time Magazine

McArmalite wrote: »

Or will it be like what they did during the 25 years of the troubles when after almost every single murder we had a british secretary of state or army spokesperson coming on TV to say something like - " This is an internal matter for the army.......a full investigation has been carried out and the army sees no point in further investigation or discussion". "Republicans cannot commit crimes. Casualties are to be expected."

Changed that a bit for you.

Hagar

gandalf wrote: »

Chuckie News Network?

So that's what CNN stands for, I might use that again.

Jackie laughlin

The test facing the PSNI is to establish itself as an independent, non-political police force which will tolerate no interference in the enforcement of the law and the prosecution of all offenders.

Mick86

Hagar wrote: »

I think the reality is that nothing will be followed up on in a court of law. The PSNI are not reknowned for washing their dirty linen in public. No charges will ever be brought. Who is going to investigate them? Their comrades? I don't think so.

If the victims report the incidents to the PSNI then they will have to be investigated. Between the Ombudsman, the PSNI authorities and the Policing boards it should be possible to ensure that the allegations are investigated properly. The PSNI must be the most supervised police force in the world. Quite frankily I don't see how this sort of thing can be brushed under the carpet.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

Will that include the hundreds of murders carried out by the brits during the troubles,

yes it does and I believe the process has already started. I also believe there are a significant number of "Loyalist" murderers who have done their time in prison.

McArmalite wrote: »

and the God knows how many attrocities they are carrying out in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment ?

They aren't. Unless you have some enlightening news for us. With a link to back up your claims and an explanation as to why you raise that on a thread about the PSNI, or are they in Iraq and Afghanistan and therefore relevant to this thread.

McArmalite wrote: »

Still, we know who gave the unoffical justice to the brits

and we all know who made themselves Judge and Jury:rolleyes:

cranmore

gandalf wrote: »

cranmore and you're opinion on this is what? Its in the charter for this forum that you don't quote or link to articles without adding some of your own opinion. I will close this discussion later if you do not add your opinion.

Changed the thread title as it was inaccurate.

sorry mate, i know its no excuse 2 say i'm new, but i'll know 4 the next time.

cranmore

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

The test facing the PSNI is to establish itself as an independent, non-political police force which will tolerate no interference in the enforcement of the law and the prosecution of all offenders.

That'll be the day!:rolleyes:

Jackie laughlin

The structures under which the PNSI now operate are a test for other police forces including our own. Those structures are impressively democratic. I hope they work and I hope we copy them.

McArmalite

Ibid wrote: »

Changed that a bit for you.

"Republicans cannot commit crimes. Casualties are to be expected."

Well firstly SF or the IRA weren't allowed on TV or radio for most of the conflict to state anything under Section 31, unlike the british forces and their political wings - the Tory and british Labour Party etc. Though I support them, I label myself as an independent Republican, I define my support as " Critical support". I have stated in other postings that the IRA did some terrible, horrible, unjustified crimes. I cannot blame anyone for been angry with cliches of regretful civilain causualities etc. But ofcourse with peace lovers and apologists for british murder, anger with cliches wouldn't be applied to british atrocity's will it ???

As usual an apologist has to try and sideline any criticism of britain with - the IRA [ I presume that's the 'baddie IRA' (1922- ) and not the 'goodie' IRA (1916 - 1921 ], did this, the IRA did that, the IRA did the other. There you have folks, even though the birtish have and will carry out vastly greater atrocity's throughout the world, even just since WW2, it can be excused with - ' the did this, the IRA did that, the IRA did the other.' As my signature states " And then the British govt. and their apologists, pontificate about International Terrorism ???? "

Jackie laughlin

McA,
You have argued with me in the past and accused me time and again of being soft on British crimes. You seem to assume that everyone who condemns SF/IRA murder, condones British murder. That's simply not true.

Moreover, I and many others do not distinguish between the "old" IRA and the provos. The "good, old IRA" is a state created myth, which turned bloody mayhem into heroics and may have motivated to violence young people who were encouraged to admire the likes of Pearse, Collins etc.

McArmalite

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

McA,
You have argued with me in the past and accused me time and again of being soft on British crimes. You seem to assume that everyone who condemns SF/IRA murder, condones British murder. That's simply not true.

Moreover, I and many others do not distinguish between the "old" IRA and the provos. The "good, old IRA" is a state created myth, which turned bloody mayhem into heroics and may have motivated to violence young people who were encouraged to admire the likes of Pearse, Collins etc.

So, is there any circunstances that people, not just in Ireland, anywhere, have a legitimate right to take up arms against a foreign oppressor ? I'm not trying to 'catch you out' or be argumentative, but do you just not believe in armed resistance ?

Well,the cirumstances in the North after the late 70's didn't merit it anyway as most of the people in the island were dead set against it.
There may have been some support at the early stages of the troubles especially when the stormont government were acting the maggot with voting and housing and combined with bloody sunday etc.

In my own logic,I have a rule of thumb-if the vast majority are against taking up arms,then you don't take up arms.

As for 2007,the question is moot as there is no likelyhood at all of any circumstances arising that would lead to a repeat of the troubles and I am certain of that.
Most people want to get on with their lives now and up North vote for parties that support a united Ireland if thats what they want.

As for this talk of "armed resistance" and "foreign oppressors"-the simple fact of the matter today is that probably 95%+ of the people of this island don't think of Britain that way anymore[otherwise they'd be voting for parties that do rather than parties that are implacably opposed to that viewpoint eg FG/FF/and labour who between them get 90% of the 26 county vote] so I'd suggest that the other 5% get on with life and accept that fact.

I don't think I'd have much of a problem with an armed rising in Burma,that would be understandable since there you have a brutal dictatorship-something we don't have on these islands.

McArmalite

Tristrame wrote: »

Well,the cirumstances in the North after the late 70's didn't merit it anyway as most of the people in the island were dead set against it.
There may have been some support at the early stages of the troubles especially when the stormont government were acting the maggot with voting and housing and combined with bloody sunday etc.

In my own logic,I have a rule of thumb-if the vast majority are against taking up arms,then you don't take up arms.

As for 2007,the question is moot as there is no likelyhood at all of any circumstances arising that would lead to a repeat of the troubles and I am certain of that.
Most people want to get on with their lives now and up North vote for parties that support a united Ireland if thats what they want.

As for this talk of "armed resistance" and "foreign oppressors"-the simple fact of the matter today is that probably 95%+ of the people of this island don't think of Britain that way anymore[otherwise they'd be voting for parties that do rather than parties that are implacably opposed to that viewpoint eg FG/FF/and labour who between them get 90% of the 26 county vote] so I'd suggest that the other 5% get on with life and accept that fact.

I don't think I'd have much of a problem with an armed rising in Burma,that would be understandable since there you have a brutal dictatorship-something we don't have on these islands.

Well, you've made some good points, I'm just wondering Jackie's perspective on armed resistance. But " I have a rule of thumb-if the vast majority are against taking up arms,then you don't take up arms. ". 1916, the Fenians, 1803, 1798, - vast majority weren't taking up arms. Same in Nazi occupied Europe, Cuba, Nicuragua, Vietnam etc despite the propaganda of the resistance fighters against the Nazi's, whither it be France, Holland, Czechsolavkia etc, the vast majority of the people however they may personally have resented occupation, just got on with life. And how does a clandestine revolutionary movement gauge it's possible support, going around asking door to door ?

With the six counties, the nationalist birth rate will bring that to an end. True people don't wake up in the morning and say first thing to themselves - "Oh my God, part of the country is still occupied" ( nor neither did the vast majority in Nazi occupied Europe evidently).

gandalf

By Godwins law you have just lost the arguement.

murphaph

McArmalite wrote: »

So, is there any circunstances that people, not just in Ireland, anywhere, have a legitimate right to take up arms against a foreign oppressor ? I'm not trying to 'catch you out' or be argumentative, but do you just not believe in armed resistance ?

SF only started to "do well" electorally once the campaign of violence ended. On both sides of the border. The people spoke by voting for republican parties who followed a policy of non-violent opposition to british rule in Ireland. The IRA didn't listen to what the people were saying and carried on regardless.

It was all 'militarily' pointless anyway. Northern Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom and indeed, SF sit in a UK regional assembly.

The PSNI are not perfect but I'd rather them than the Gardai to be honest. It strikes me as a much more professional outfit. There are many professional individuals in the guards, but the organisation as a whole needs serious reform. The PSNI are a radically changed outfit.

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote: »

SF only started to "do well" electorally once the campaign of violence ended.

I would say it was after the 1981 hunger strikes. Do you think getting somebody elected to a parliament is failing to 'do well'?

On both sides of the border. The people spoke by voting for republican parties who followed a policy of non-violent opposition to british rule in Ireland. The IRA didn't listen to what the people were saying and carried on regardless.

If the IRA listened to the non-violent opposition, it is doubtful there would have been an independent Ireland

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I would say it was after the 1981 hunger strikes. Do you think getting somebody elected to a parliament is failing to 'do well'?

Well, voting for a near corpse (puppeted into that position by SF, who later would go on to rather tastelessly issue tawdry plates with his image on!) elected to represent you shows more about the electorate than anything else.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

If the IRA listened to the non-violent opposition, it is doubtful there would have been an independent Ireland

In your opinion I'm sure. Totally impossible to prove one way or the other. In any case-was a 'free' Ireland which languished in desperate poverty for most of it's existance all that great? Are you glad the country was 'free' from the english tyrant, only to be replaced by the Roman Catholic Church? Are you glad the rest of the british isles had their 'sexual revolution' while the 26 counties remained largely ignorant and women resorted to smuggling condoms in from Northern Ireland? It was a prison! Worse than the brits could have ever imposed.

If the IRA listened to anyone but their big egos the island would have been a happier place. It is now fractured forever because of them. Where did all the protestants down south go to? You may see it as a 'win' that they all but disappeared but I don't. Yeah, an independent but totally unfree Ireland, great.

gandalf

Can you all please get this thread back on topic or start one about the ins and outs of the IRA's actions in a new one. If this continues in this way I will lock this thread.

Jackie laughlin

McA,
I'm not a pacifist. There are times when violence is necessary.

Many of the situations you list do not involve a foreign aggressor.

Britain's involvement in Ireland goes back to an age before the existence of Britain and indeed before the emergence of any coherent sense of Irish identity. This is not an argument against independence from Britain. It is simply a statement of fact that we were never invaded by Britain and Britain has never been a foreign aggressor in any meaningful sense of the term. We have a complex history.

Violent nationalism in Ireland tends in any event to kill Irish people and frankly sometimes it is "ethnic" or "religious cleansing".

murphaph

Ok,
To try to bring it back on topic a bit. I was watching the news yesterday I think and the PSNI had arrested Hutchinson of the PUP in connection with that Devlin murder. There were a rent-a-mob of PUPers outside the police station with cheap looking "political policing" slogans on. I ask you-both the green and orange side accuse the PSNI of no good. Those lads can't win. They get it from both sides and then have one of the most powerful police ombudsmen watching their every move.

Jackie laughlin

I agree. The PSNI is very impressive and many countries are watching and looking to the management structures which are making it so. The PSNI may be the one worthwhile consequence of terrorism.

McArmalite

murphaph wrote: »

The PSNI are not perfect but I'd rather them than the Gardai to be honest. It strikes me as a much more professional outfit. There are many professional individuals in the guards, but the organisation as a whole needs serious reform. The PSNI are a radically changed outfit.

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

I agree. The PSNI is very impressive and many countries are watching and looking to the management structures which are making it so. The PSNI may be the one worthwhile consequence of terrorism.

Well, as I said I've had experience of them and they certainly aren't the unionist thugs like they were in the past. In fairness to the vast majority of the ordinary Guards in comapring them to the PSNI, in football terms, we're not talking about Manchester United and Doncaster United are we ? But if they have changed it's mainly due to Gerry and Co "putting manners on them". The lovely unionist 'tradition' didn't want even the cap badge changed for God's sake !!!!

murphaph wrote: »

Ok,
To try to bring it back on topic a bit. I was watching the news yesterday I think and the PSNI had arrested Hutchinson of the PUP in connection with that Devlin murder. There were a rent-a-mob of PUPers outside the police station with cheap looking "political policing" slogans on. I ask you-both the green and orange side accuse the PSNI of no good. Those lads can't win. They get it from both sides and then have one of the most powerful police ombudsmen watching their every move.

Ah, God love them, it's not like the 'good old days' when the unionist community could depend on 'their boys' to go out and give the taigs a right good hammering.

murphaph

Funny, I thought it was Chris Patten who "put manners on them".

Jackie laughlin

Murph,
Give them credit for something! All those people dead and maimed, well let SF/IRA argue that it was get a reformed police force. Something good should come of such evil.

LordSutch

The PSNI are universally recognised as being one of the best Police forces in the World, and they are constantly under the microscope ~ courtesy of the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman (Nula O'Loan).

Nuff said..................

Hagar

ArthurF wrote: »

The PSNI are universally recognised as being one of the best Police forces in the World, and they are constantly under the microscope ~ courtesy of the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman (Nula O'Loan).

Nuff said..................

That is an unfounded generalisation, and why do you think they are under a microscope? Quite simply because their past behaviour warrants it.

purple'n'gold

Hagar wrote: »

That is an unfounded generalisation, and why do you think they are under a microscope? Quite simply because their past behaviour warrants it.

Quiet definitely their past behaviour warrants it, and the Gardai should also be under the microscope especially after their disgraceful behaviour in Donegal. No harm whatsoever to have police forces under the microscope.

Jackie laughlin

So, it seems that everyone is in agreement that the PNSI is NOW a good police force. Then everyone in NI with any information about a crime should give that information to their police.

Erin Go Brath

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

So, it seems that everyone is in agreement that the PNSI is NOW a good police force.

Not everyone is agreement about that, far from it. Having an Ombudsman watching closely is a step in the right direction though. My heart bleeds for them if they don't like someone looking over their shoulder.

Jackie laughlin

Erin,
Are they good enough that all citizens should tell the police everything they know of crimes?

Erin Go Brath

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Erin,
Are they good enough that all citizens should tell the police everything they know of crimes?

Yes. Theres still a long way to go before they can be considered a good, fair and unbiased force, but yes crimes should be reported.

cranmore

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Yes. Theres still a long way to go before they can be considered a good, fair and unbiased force.

i agree 100% with this comment.

Jackie laughlin

I don't mean to be either rude or pedantic but choice of words has cost so much in Ireland. May is ask is there any difference between "crimes should be reported" and "all citizens should tell the police everything they know of crimes"?

Erin Go Brath

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

I don't mean to be either rude or pedantic but choice of words has cost so much in Ireland. May is ask is there any difference between "crimes should be reported" and "all citizens should tell the police everything they know of crimes"?

No offence taken. "crimes should be reported", "all citizens should tell the police everything they know of crimes" (sounds one and the same to me). Anyway, Yes, and Yes. Hope that clarifies thing further.

Jackie laughlin

Erin,
May I push you on this? Is it your position that if anyone has any information on, say, the Le Mon murders, they should tell the police?

Erin Go Brath

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Erin,
May I push you on this? Is it your position that if anyone has any information on, say, the Le Mon murders, they should tell the police?

Yes