Leaving USI

SOL

Just because I think it deserves its very own thread rather than the USI resignations thread. What do people think? I for one think it is long overdue and that TCDSU should do something better with the €100,000 it spends on USI every year.

Well on the point of the €100,000, TCDSU really can't do much else with the money bar USI-related stuff. But if we're looking for items to spend it on, can I suggest we put the money forward to this worthwhile development. I think it's been needed for some time, and would positively benefit TCDSU. Plus there'll be some change left over.

Serious answer, I'm very surprised that a motion of no confidence was passed at National Council, irrelevant of whom it was against. Part of this surprise is down to how the motion of no confidence on Tony McDonnell did not pass two years ago, to be honest. But that's a whole different story.

Most of what I've seen from USI in the past two years have been in the form of press releases, though (as I've said before) I believe they organised a teacher training protest last year which did get a couple of thousand students out (including teachers from Trinity) so they aren't incapable of getting people out protesting. So it'd be a stretch, but an acceptable one to say that if people are willing to go protesting about an educational matter, then there is a need for a body to represent them. But getting back to the bigger picture and the fact they represent student blah blah blah, I think that USI is very very important even as a basic lobbying tool for grants/fees/etc. So if I was still a student I would certainly be voting to remain in USI, however messed up it is. USI doesn't need constitutional reviews or changes, it needs more people who are actively involved in it. The twist is that it has to be open to do this and I don't think that right now there is enough transparency, or information being given to students about what exactly is happening in USI. Even last year National Council minutes were taken off the website, instead of following the mandate in place for them to be placed online, and while there is a USI message board in place non-sabbatical officers could not access it! Madness! Meetings happen without any non-SU related people knowing about it, if even. I think people got involved in USI in the past through protests occurring, often about fees. Given the absense of these protests, people don't get to find out anything about USI so the pool of, well, hacks (or activists, if you want) is very very small.

One slightly bitter point; for anyone who has argued against the need for a Deputy President in USI for monetary, organisational, representational or just to be a pain in the hole for years, I think that, to the best of my knowledge, since the USI constitution has no contingency for this matter, it would be worthwhile reconsidering the role a Deputy President would play right now. But again, that's a different story.

Hrm, that post just turned into a mighty rant. To summarise, I'd vote to stay in USI. It has potential, it just needs more people to help it live up to that.

Ox

Serious answer, I'm very surprised that a motion of no confidence was passed at National Council, irrelevant of whom it was against. Part of this surprise is down to how the motion of no confidence on Tony McDonnell did not pass two years ago, to be honest. But that's a whole different story.

Yes it is a whole different story! The motion, and the whole witch-hunt against Tony McDonnell was completely unjustified and motivated as far as I could see, by the friends of two bitter ex-officers. Wasn't the motion defeated unanimously? I haven't been as involved this year (I was a PTO last year) so I don't know how justified the complaints were, but putting a confidential document on the internet is a no-no and smells of pure backstabbing politics that I had hoped had left USI for ever.

Leaving USI is a bad idea for any college, particularly a big College like TCD. United we stand and the democractic nature of USI means that if changes need to made, the power is there to do so.

Ox

Sorry - I hope you don't mind me posting here, Im not a TCD student!

Ox

Ox wrote: »

Yes it is a whole different story! The motion, and the whole witch-hunt against Tony McDonnell was completely unjustified and motivated as far as I could see, by the friends of two bitter ex-officers. Wasn't the motion defeated unanimously? I haven't been as involved this year (I was a PTO last year) so I don't know how justified the complaints were, but putting a confidential document on the internet is a no-no and smells of pure backstabbing politics that I had hoped had left USI for ever.

I've said what I've wanted to say before in other circles but if the same criteria were applied to Tony as they were to Richie, I'd be surprised to see him survive a motion of no confidence. If, as you said, they are indeed true. I'll gladly go into more details but in relation to this thread I'll stop derailing it.

I'm happy in a way that the back-slapping and 'boys will be boys' nature of USI appears to have been left behind. I'm very happy that Students' Unions are not now just accepting everything given to them by USI Officers and are questioning everything that's happening in USI, and are taking an active interest in what's going on. Obviously to make this decision was a large commitment from all the SUs so I'm definitely in awe at this decision.

I'm sad too that USI is now without someone representing students. And also I've worked with Richie before when he was Education Officer in UCC so this whole thing is quite interesting, from a voyeuristic point of view. In my eyes he was competent in his (Education) job so, as I said, it's very interesting.

Edit: I'm not a moderator of this forum but from my point of view your input is very appreciated!

eihcir23

Well if like those, then you may also like these:

http://bb.ucc.ie/viewtopic.php?t=14987

http://bb.ucc.ie/viewtopic.php?t=15014

Personally, as an observer (now), I'm a little disgusted to see what happened last weekend being spun as OK and not a problem for USI. When people who actually want to change things get forced out by people who want a fancy title, what hopes are there for USI?

I really hope there are, but i fear that there won't be.

xeduCat

Ox wrote: »

Yes it is a whole different story! The motion, and the whole witch-hunt against Tony McDonnell was completely unjustified and motivated as far as I could see, by the friends of two bitter ex-officers. Wasn't the motion defeated unanimously? I haven't been as involved this year (I was a PTO last year) so I don't know how justified the complaints were, but putting a confidential document on the internet is a no-no and smells of pure backstabbing politics that I had hoped had left USI for ever.

Leaving USI is a bad idea for any college, particularly a big College like TCD. United we stand and the democractic nature of USI means that if changes need to made, the power is there to do so.

A very interesting post. As one of those bitter ex-officers, I was interested to read it, especially given that you say you were a part-time officer of USI (Edit: at least that's what it seems from your post, correct me if I'm wrong) last year.

Now, USI had (if memory serves) two part-time officers in 2006/7, two fine people, Paddy Carroll (a postgrad, and clearly not you given that you posted in August about how you wanted to do a postgrad course but were worried about your undergrad results) and Ciarán Mac Fhéargusa (a TCD student, although you say below that you aren't TCD). Therefore, it's quite unlikely (unless I've made a basic error of some sort) that you are actually a part-time officer from last year.

So perhaps, Ox, you are not what you seem?

I wonder, in that case, given that I haven't made any comment on leaving USI since the week I left or on the current events, that if you're going to come onto these TCD boards and with your first post, call me bitter (which I don't deny ), you might at least have the decency to give a more accurate version of where you're coming from?

Boston

Where you educational officer for the usi the year before last?

xeduCat

Briefly :-P

eihcir23

eihcir23 wrote: »

Well if like those, then you may also like these:

http://bb.ucc.ie/viewtopic.php?t=14987

http://bb.ucc.ie/viewtopic.php?t=15014

Personally, as an observer (now), I'm a little disgusted to see what happened last weekend being spun as OK and not a problem for USI. When people who actually want to change things get forced out by people who want a fancy title, what hopes are there for USI?

I really hope there are, but i fear that there won't be.

Had a flick through those posts and if what was said is true, well, I think I can withdraw my comments about being happy about events in USI.

Boston

xeduCat wrote: »

Briefly :-P

That explains the source of a great deal of confusion on my part in the past.

Boston

Boston wrote: »

That explains the source of a great deal of confusion on my part in the past.

For the last time, myself and xeduCat are separate people.

mcguirkj

Firstly, I've no idea who Ox is, but it's not me, in case anybody's wondering. (And they usually do)

I think that this question should be put to rest once and for all.

Why not organise a national referendum, in all Colleges with Unions either affiliated or unaffiliated to USI.

Make it a national vote on whether the organisation should survive, by holding one day of simultaeneous referenda on affiliation.

It would garner immense media attention, and would engage the students in a way we haven't done for years.

If we won, nobody could question our legitimacy.

And if we can't win, - well, what's the point?

But if things continue to limp along as they are, and if I were a student again, I'd seriously consider the value of the organisation.

Boston

Myth wrote: »

For the last time, myself and xeduCat are separate people.

I've yet to see you two in the same place at the same time.

xeduCat

Boston wrote: »

I've yet to see you two in the same place at the same time.

I'm Dónal at weekends.

Oirthir

mcguirkj wrote: »

It would garner immense media attention

That assumes that anyone outside the Phoenix and BreakingNews.ie gives a toss about the inner workings of SU politics.

And also, who would fund this mass "Is USI relevant" referendum?

Finally, I think Ox would be more likely former Presidential Material. Or an NUIG-head.

mcguirkj

That assumes that anyone outside the Phoenix and BreakingNews.ie gives a toss about the inner workings of SU politics.

True, but this wouldn't be the inner workings of SU politics.

This would be about the future of the Student movement itself. And as regards funding, why wouldn't individual Unions fund it?

A) It might actually excite and interest students to be part of a national referendum, about a big issue, rather than the usual referenda about how many people should be on their SU exec,

and It's about time that all the people, me included, on either side of the USI debate, - which is essentially a hackfest -, who spout on about the opinions of our membership without ever really consulting them, take a step back and let the students speak.

What are we all worried about? that we might lose? Because I guarantee you the colleges most opposed to taking part would be the dissafiliates. Why? Because we might win.

Why not put it all on the line, and see? It would only take a bit of collective courage. We are all about democracy, aren't we?

Andrew 83

USI seems to be a mess but I think a national student union is an important thing to have and you're better off in it than outside and giving it strength than weakness.

That said in cutting ties with SIPTU they've lost their main advantage in terms of the average student in that up until now every student was automatically a member of SIPTU through USI whereas now they're not.

shay_562

mcguirkj wrote:

Firstly, I've no idea who Ox is, but it's not me, in case anybody's wondering. (And they usually do)

Really?! People question your integrity?! And with your unblemished record...well I never!

mcguirkj wrote:

It's about time that all the people, me included, on either side of the USI debate, - which is essentially a hackfest -, who spout on about the opinions of our membership without ever really consulting them, take a step back and let the students speak.

Maybe it's the alcohol talking, but an awful lot of students (in TCD at least) I wouldn't trust to find their own ass with both hands, a torch and a topographical map of the general region. Some things are better left to hacks. That's why we have hacks. And controls on the hacks are good, but if you say to the average student "You can pay €8 a year to be a member of an organisation you'll likely never have need to be involved with in college, or you can have 9 cans of Bavaria in the Pav" they'll pick the Bavaria. And while it seems to have been imploding in the past few years, I do think USI has a proper purpose that needs to be fulfilled, and I'd be very worried for student advocacy if it were to be disbanded. A voice that's bickering internally and not always quite on-target is better than no voice at all.

Crash

Oirthir wrote: »

Or an NUIG-head.

ahem.....

Ox

I was a part time officer in my college SU last year, no doubt contributing to my grades. Ah well... So I'm not an expert on USI, I just know what I heard.

xeduCat

Fair enough ... well, for what it's worth, I can confirm that I have never had any involvement with any impeachment or censure or non-confidence proceedings in USI (TCDSU, now, that's another matter ).

Ox

Share the love!

Moorsy

Student Union Council tomorrow night will debate the future of USI and TCDSU affiliation. I am for one totally against this retrograde move and would encourage all who are interested to attended. Joly theatre 7p.m. Tuesday 30th of October.

M5: Motion on Disaffiliation from the Union of Students in Ireland (USI) *


Council notes:


The recent resignation of USI President Richie Morrissroe and the poor performance of USI as of late.


Council further notes:


That affiliation with USI is no longer in the best interests of the students of TCDSU and therefore TCDSU should disaffiliate as soon as possible.


Council Therefore Calls For:


A referendum be held asking students “Do you vote for TCDSU to disaffiliate itself from the Union of Students in Ireland (USI) with immediate effect?”


Proposed by Stephen O’ Connell, JF Computer Science Class Rep

Seconded by Conor Smith, SS Computer Science Class Rep


* As this motion calls for a policy referendum, it will require a two-thirds majority of those present at Council to pass.

Heh. I laughed at the 'with immediate effect' bit, since chances are high that one of the arguments that may be used tomorrow will be how we should use the money to better use, while the motion ignores how TCDSU has paid for one year's membership, thus would be wasting students' money.

I'd be surprised if it passes.

wowy

Moorsy wrote: »

Student Union Council tomorrow night will debate the future of USI and TCDSU affiliation. I am for one totally against this retrograde move and would encourage all who are interested to attended. Joly theatre 7p.m. Tuesday 30th of October.

M5: Motion on Disaffiliation from the Union of Students in Ireland (USI) *


Council notes:


The recent resignation of USI President Richie Morrissroe and the poor performance of USI as of late.


Council further notes:


That affiliation with USI is no longer in the best interests of the students of TCDSU and therefore TCDSU should disaffiliate as soon as possible.


Council Therefore Calls For:


A referendum be held asking students “Do you vote for TCDSU to disaffiliate itself from the Union of Students in Ireland (USI) with immediate effect?”


Proposed by Stephen O’ Connell, JF Computer Science Class Rep

Seconded by Conor Smith, SS Computer Science Class Rep


* As this motion calls for a policy referendum, it will require a two-thirds majority of those present at Council to pass.

Is it just me, or is it not a bit silly to include that bit in the motion, but not make any specific reference to particular proof of it? It seems to be a bit of a "Well, it just is.." argument. I'm not saying that they haven't been poor as of late (I haven't really a clue what they've been up to), but that motion doesn't really convince that they've been "poor".

Moorsy

Well I don't think Exec will be supporting the motion with the exception of one or two usually faces. I can't relay imaging it passing, TCD has always seemed to have a good relationship with USI.

Although David Quinn may still be bitter about being RONed for the Environmental Position....

Boston

wowy wrote: »

Is it just me, or is it not a bit silly to include that bit in the motion, but not make any specific reference to particular proof of it? It seems to be a bit of a "Well, it just is.." argument. I'm not saying that they haven't been poor as of late (I haven't really a clue what they've been up to), but that motion doesn't really convince that they've been "poor".

The su is inhabited by morons.

Crash

wowy : ideally it should be one of the points the speaker could raise. I could list off a million at this point.

also, as of late would imply the last year - you've got to go back 5 or 6 before the union properly worked, and to be honest, part of the issue is there has never been a proper support structure in USI to allow proper feeder support from the CO's.

shay_562

Moorsy wrote:

Student Union Council tomorrow night will debate the future of USI and TCDSU affiliation. I am for one totally against this retrograde move and would encourage all who are interested to attended. Joly theatre 7p.m. Tuesday 30th of October.

What's the craic with randomers attending this? Who gets to speak and vote on it? In other words, is there any point in non-class reps even turning up?

wowy wrote:

Is it just me, or is it not a bit silly to include that bit in the motion, but not make any specific reference to particular proof of it?

I don't think you generally include a detailed list of reasons within a motion. Think of...well, any debate you've helped run in the past year. Are they "TTHB X is Y." or "TTHB X is Y because of the following 17 reasons..."? I'd imagine the debate tomorrow will probably come down (at least in part) to just how valid or not that bit of the motion is.

Crash

shay: you can speak, you can't vote. Ideally you should inform your class rep of how you and others of your class feel, and he should vote depending on support from the class. note the use of should.

Danger Bob

This all smacks of running away when the going gets tough tbh. Something which TCDSU has been very against whenever its come up in my time in college.

As Myth points out, TCDSU has already paid for a full year's membership so unless the proposer alters the "with immediate effect" bit before tomorrow night, then they're pretty much trying to mandate the Union to throw around €70,000 of their members' money down the drain.

USI is a bit of a joke right now but big unions disaffiliating will only serve stop it from being able to get itself back on an even keel. If it's still a mess come February, call the referendum for during the Sabbat elections. But right now it's just silly.

shay_562

crash_000 wrote:

Ideally you should inform your class rep of how you and others of your class feel, and he should vote depending on support from the class. note the use of should.

I know one of my class reps (she's a blonde girl in BESS who was wearing a lot of pink the one time I saw her - shouldn't be that hard to track down), but not the other. In fact, that's why I was looking through the SU website (hence the other thread). Is there anywhere else I might find a list of reps?

Myth wrote:

As Myth points out, TCDSU has already paid for a full year's membership so unless the proposer alters the "with immediate effect" bit before tomorrow night, then they're pretty much trying to mandate the Union to throw around €70,000 of their members' money down the drain.

To be fair, that money is gone now either way. If we think USI is so bad we should disaffiliate (ie, that we're getting absolutely nothing out of staying), then doing it now is as good as doing it later. If we think it's worth staying for the next few months, then that pretty much acknowledges that there's a benefit to being in USI and that we should stay in it in future.

May or may not pop along to this - John Mortimer is speaking at the same time, and I'm weighing up which is likely to be more entertaining.

Moorsy

Moorsy wrote: »

Although David Quinn may still be bitter about being RONed for the Environmental Position....

David who?

ilovemybrick

Myth wrote: »

David who?

snigger

Oirthir

And this makes how many proposals to disafilliate TCDSU in the last few years?

Not being snotty, just don't know.

Boston

It only takes one, then bamb... You're preggers.

Moorsy

Motion didn't pass about 60% against 40% for.

Did I hear the USI Education Officer is planning on resigning since he is running for USI President, and is unopposed? Plus just one candidate for Equality too. So now there'll be an empty Education Officer position assuming Hamid gets elected. More chaos please.

It's funny how those colleges who voted for the motion of no confidence didn't put anyone forward for the Presidential position. Good times.

shay_562

crash_000 wrote:

Ideally you should inform your class rep of how you and others of your class feel, and he should vote depending on support from the class.

Or, cut out the middleman and apply for a vacant class rep position, getting elected unopposed with 3 hours to spare before council. Active solutions ftw!

Crash

was wondering how come you were there

oirthir wrote:

And this makes how many proposals to disafilliate TCDSU in the last few years?

first one in five years, afaik.

If my impressions right, you were an officer of sorts in tonys year aye? That year there was a working group set up, following the resignations, to read up on the past few years actions by USI and decide whether to recommend a referendum or to keep the status quo. at the time, we decided to recommend to SU council to stay members of USI, but to review the situation on a regular basis.

Myth wrote:

Did I hear the USI Education Officer is planning on resigning since he is running for USI President, and is unopposed? Plus just one candidate for Equality too. So now there'll be an empty Education Officer position assuming Hamid gets elected. More chaos please.

It's funny how those colleges who voted for the motion of no confidence didn't put anyone forward for the Presidential position. Good times.

dont get me started. now comes the wonderful position of a part-time president/part time education, seeing as chances of someone filling that job are pretty much nil at this point.

To be honest, I knew it wouldn't pass, for various reasons. 1) first council. 2) the fact that one of the shortfallings of the SU is that proper representative voting has NEVER been pushed forward towards the class rep system.

In my eyes, any organisation that has had 4 resignations from officer board in the past 2 1/2 years, 3 of them being very senior positions, as well as losing one of the most competent staff members is a failure. and there's only so long that the "better in than out" idea can actually hold on for.

shay_562

crash_000 wrote:

the fact that one of the shortfallings of the SU is that proper representative voting has NEVER been pushed forward towards the class rep system.

Maybe it's because it's 8.40 in the morning and I'm slower than normal, but I don't quite understand what you mean here...

Agent Smith

Boston wrote: »

It only takes one, then bamb... You're preggers.

When You walk threw the Garden....

in the Garden of Eden....


with a beautiful woman....

Oirthir

çrash_000 wrote: »

If my impressions right, you were an officer of sorts in tonys year aye?

Yup Yup, was the Eastern Area Campaigns Officer, but just like xEducat, I got sick of banging my head off the wall trying to fix something that is essentially broken from the core.

By which I don't mean disaffiliating is the answer, I mean that if students (read Hacks) want to know what's wrong with USI, they need look no further then their own noses, or at the very least, their sabbats.

ilovemybrick

shay_562 wrote: »

Maybe it's because it's 8.40 in the morning and I'm slower than normal, but I don't quite understand what you mean here...

the fact that about 0.00002% percent of class reps ever ask their class what they think.
most of the class rep think it is something they decide on as opposed to a system where the reps are supposed to represent the views and opinions of the student body as a whole.

Crash

Its the same issue that pops up come national congress for USI, and it drives me mental that a lot of the time people aren't willing to step back sometimes and remember that they're there to represent people, and its not some god given right to be the be all and end all.

ok, so we debate things at council for a reason, but if you know for a fact that your entire class would be opposed to the idea then you have an obligation to vote against it, no matter your personal feelings on the matter. The debating comes into the grey area where views are all a bit muddled

Danger Bob

If you've always believed that council doesn't properly represent students and that so many students want to be out of USI, would you not just collect signatures to call the referendum?

I'm not in favour of having such a referendum right now but if you're sure that this is what the students want and that council has done them a disservice, then maybe you should let them use their voice in that way.

However, you're much less likely to win a disaffiliation referendum now than you would during the Sabbat elections if USI has still underperformed and if you lose it now, it'd be a bit of a farce to call it twice.

Just seems to make more sense than criticising council.

Moorsy

These sort of topic always come up and somebody always turns up to call a nice little referendum. What these people don't understand is that the SU is not representative of the student body. The conservative bias that sometimes protrudes the Union comes from people who are generally interested in partisan politics gravitating towards the Union as a political football ground to practice being a TD for FF or FG or, in my case Labour etc. This then in turn focuses the SU away from always just acting for what Students want and many times halt progressive stances which students broadly agree with.

In my opinion Students are not right-wing these days its more a case of student being turned off by the insistent back stabbing, careerism and anality of many who are involved. Vis-à-vis USI. Every student is a member of USI and as members the Unions’ around the country should encourage wider participation and not back off and let a small few run amuck.

Killer Coke Boycott...SU Council nearly unanimously passed the motion to have the referendum with a large amount of support in the way of removing the ban. The vote in the referendum speaks for itself.2029 For 1199 Against.

ilovemybrick

Moorsy wrote: »

The conservative bias that sometimes protrudes the Union comes from people who are generally interested in partisan politics gravitating towards the Union

what does "protudes the Union" mean?

Moorsy wrote: »

Killer Coke Boycott...SU Council nearly unanimously passed the motion to have the referendum with a large amount of support in the way of removing the ban. The vote in the referendum speaks for itself.2029 For 1199 Against.

The issues of whether the referendum should be run and whether the "boycott" should be removed are two very separate things. In the first instance the arguments that were were made for the running of a referendum were mainly based on letting the student body decide and as so were entirely removed from what the referendum itself was actually about.

DeVore

Disclosure: I was involved in getting TCD out of USI the first time. I was one of the 4 people who organised the anti USI demonstrations and protests.

My sincere advice is, Get Out Stay Out.

National representation of students is important. USI isnt it. Its bloated, ineffective and a waste of money. It needs to be ripped down and rebuilt in a streamlined fashion. Its current primary purpose is to turn minor hacks into minor political candidates.
The core job of USI could be done with two people and a bunch of phone calls between the various SU presidents.

If they are anything like what they were when I was in college. You will have an easier (and less scary) time leaving Scientology.

Get out. Get out now.

DeV.

Moorsy

ilovemybrick wrote: »

what does "protudes the Union" mean?

.

Well dictionary.com will provide the meaning of the word but I don't think that’s what your getting at, is it?
I'm talking about the Union at points being out of touch with students as a whole and often a political view, not essential a student orientated view, protrudes (To jut out; project) the Union.

ilovemybrick wrote: »

The issues of whether the referendum should be run and whether the "boycott" should be removed are two very separate things. In the first instance the arguments that were were made for the running of a referendum were mainly based on letting the student body decide and as so were entirely removed from what the referendum itself was actually about.

The arguements used last year in Council and the arguement used last night - i.e. let the students decide by referendum - are the same.