steroid use in rugby

maradona10

any views on the prevalence of steroid use in irish rugby or abroad. i dont believe for a minute that its all protein drinks and vitamins they're on

zAbbo

Jim Glennon was harping on about drug use in todays Indo.

Just because they're not caught, doesn't mean it's not happening.

I don't find it 'unbelievable' that professional sportsmen can bulk up to the sizes some of these players are.

With correct & dedicated training it's certainly achievable

antog86

I would be sceptical! Joe Rocka....at 16 1/2 stone on the wing for New Zealand and running 100metres in 10.5 seconds. Now that sounds a little suspect............

What happens all these players when they retire. I reckon we will see a huge amount of heart attacks amongst retired proffessional's in years to come......

Sandwich

Rampant Id say, but probably adds to the game as a spectator sport at the top level. 176 tests carried out so far in the World Cup and no positives, so its being well controlled by the players and staff from from a PR point of view.

antog86

Sandwich wrote: »

Rampant Id say, but probably adds to the game as a spectator sport at the top level. 176 tests carried out so far in the World Cup and no positives, so its being well controlled by the players and staff from from a PR point of view.

Agree with you. Id say the rules on what they can and cant use and how much of something they can use are pretty loose. PR at its best!

Stev_o

antog86 wrote: »

I would be sceptical! Joe Rocka....at 16 1/2 stone on the wing for New Zealand and running 100metres in 10.5 seconds. Now that sounds a little suspect............

What happens all these players when they retire. I reckon we will see a huge amount of heart attacks amongst retired proffessional's in years to come......

Well have you seen what these guys nutrition and training is like? They are under strict diets which would have a high protein count in them. Iv had pro's talk to me about it they say that they eat non stop 24 hours. For example they have to wake up at 3 or 4 in the morning and eat a big sandwich as they would loose weight while sleeping

antog86

Stev_o wrote: »

Well have you seen what these guys nutrition and training is like? They are under strict diets which would have a high protein count in them. Iv had pro's talk to me about it they say that they eat non stop 24 hours. For example they have to wake up at 3 or 4 in the morning and eat a big sandwich as they would loose weight while sleeping

You may be right. but i doubt it is sandwhiches they eat. Not exactly the ideal food for training etc Maybe pasta etc

thirtyfoot

Classic armchair punditary to suggest that steroids are rampant in rugby and that its a big conspiracy to keep it quiet. What are you basing this on? Are you living/training with an elite rugby player? Have you been an elite rugby player? I'd be very surprised if steroids were used by top rugby players and to suggest that the testing procedures are 'loose' is hilarious. I'd say 176 tests and no positives is a clear indication that ped's are not used in high level rugby.

Some people will never be convinced, you test and there are positives and there is an outcry (justifiably) while if you test and there are no positives its a cover up. Can't win really.

Jackz

Is it not the case that after each test players are drawn at random to go to the drug testing room?

antog86

Jackz wrote: »

Is it not the case that after each test players are drawn at random to go to the drug testing room?

Yes that would more than likely be the case, however, my point is:
Just because they drug test the players does not mean that they catch them. There has been quite a few examples of this down through the years.Because of the money involved in doping and the potential benefits they are usually a couple of years ahead of the authorities. Also i reckon the amount of substances allowed in the blood in rugby may be quite a lot!

Raskolnikov

Tingle wrote: »

I'd say 176 tests and no positives is a clear indication that ped's are not used in high level rugby.

With many performance-enhancing drugs, all traces of the drug can be passed through the body within days of its last use. It's entirely possible that many athlete's could have been doped up to the gills in the preparations before the World Cup began. By the time it comes for testing, the drugs are out of their systems.

Look at Marion Jones, she ran for several years at the top-level and doubtless had several drug-tests. It took a confession from her rather than concrete proof to show she had been doped to the gills all along.

antog86

Raskolnikov wrote: »

With many performance-enhancing drugs, all traces of the drug can be passed through the body within days of its last use. It's entirely possible that many athlete's could have been doped up to the gills in the preparations before the World Cup began. By the time it comes for testing, the drugs are out of their systems.

Look at Marion Jones, she ran for several years at the top-level and doubtless had several drug-tests. It took a confession from her rather than concrete proof to show she had been doped to the gills all along.

well put!

nacho libre

i don't think there is a grand conspiracy to keep steroid use quiet, but on the other hand it's naive to think because every player is passing tests that everyone is therefore clean. it is possible that some players are beating the tests. There will always be individuals, no matter what sport it is, who will seek to have an unfair advantage and will go to any lengths to achieve it.

empirix

Steroids for sale - 3 pilss for a fiver or 8 for a tenner, six week course of injections for 100 nicker with 1 weekk free - only while stocks last. Contact me: cheatersareok@gmail.com

Santa Claus

antog86 wrote: »

I would be sceptical! Joe Rocka....at 16 1/2 stone on the wing for New Zealand and running 100metres in 10.5 seconds. Now that sounds a little suspect............

Look at your average South pacific islander such as Joe, they're massive...that's just the way they come.
Look at the Fijian team in the cup, their back row are built like forwards and their forwards are built like heavy machinery !

Stev_o wrote: »

Well have you seen what these guys nutrition and training is like? They are under strict diets which would have a high protein count in them. Iv had pro's talk to me about it they say that they eat non stop 24 hours. For example they have to wake up at 3 or 4 in the morning and eat a big sandwich as they would loose weight while sleeping

The average international standard player would burn about 1500 calories sleeping at night due to the amount of muscle they're carrying and the energy it takes to maintain that muscle mass!

Everyone said the same thing about Lomu and steroids and then claimed that his kidney transplant was because of steroid abuse (it wasn't, he has Nephrotic Syndrome).
I'm not saying there is no steroid abuse in Rugby but there's certainly very little among the elite international teams !

cavedave

I find with hunts against perfomance enhancing drug users odd because
1. Loads of people use performance enhancing drugs in their jobs. Without coffee not many programs would be written.
2. Spectation enhancing drug uses is rampant. Beer is not illegal though.
3. We benefit from performance enhancing drugs. The amount of stuff that was invented by guys who were off their mash is huge. (DNA's structure, PCR, Erdos). Almost all your albums were made by guys who were on performance enhancing drugs
4. Imagine you are about to retire and wanted to earn as much for your family as you could before you did. You pick up an injury 6 weeks before the world cup. With steroid use you can make it back without it you cannot. Unless you have had to make that choice it is difficult to judge someone who made the wrong choice.

Having said that rugby is different to cycling or some such sport. If you cheat in cycling you rob from clean athletes and damage your health. In combat sports though it is possible you will damage someone else's health. So while I do not usually care about someone juicing up when they might run through someone who is clean you do have to make serious efforts to stop drug use.

wireless101

My chemistry teacher said that Lomu is f*ucked up now because of taking anabolic steroids

thirtyfoot

Raskolnikov wrote: »

With many performance-enhancing drugs, all traces of the drug can be passed through the body within days of its last use. It's entirely possible that many athlete's could have been doped up to the gills in the preparations before the World Cup began. By the time it comes for testing, the drugs are out of their systems.

Look at Marion Jones, she ran for several years at the top-level and doubtless had several drug-tests. It took a confession from her rather than concrete proof to show she had been doped to the gills all along.

All Irish rugby drug tests were performed out of competition last year so if players were cheating its likely they would be caught as these tests are performed throughout the season and not just at world cup, 6n's etc.

Regarding Jones, the dogs in the streets knew she was cheating for years, the whole olympic village in Sydney knew days before the CJ Hunter story broke in the media that he was guilty and from then on there were doubts about Jones. I know of no rumours or doubts of Irish rugby players in Ireland.

The authorities hear rumours and act on these and actively try and catch the cheaters, eg, Al Guy arriving at Michelle Smith's door at the crack of dawn.

mikeruurds

empirix wrote: »

Steroids for sale - 3 pilss for a fiver or 8 for a tenner, six week course of injections for 100 nicker with 1 weekk free - only while stocks last. Contact me: cheatersareok@gmail.com

Hey dude. That email doesn't work. PM me.

Just kidding

zAbbo

wireless101 wrote: »

My chemistry teacher said that Lomu is f*ucked up now because of taking anabolic steroids

Your chemistry teacher is speculating through his or her ringpiece tbh.

Lomu was a genetic freak, and there's no evidence that he was using steroids, he was massive by the time he was 18.

philstar

zabbo wrote: »

Lomu was a genetic freak, and there's no evidence that he was using steroids, he was massive by the time he was 18.

yes polynesian & maori people are naturally big.

AlphaMale 3OO

Lots of people are just throwing uninformed opinions around here willy nilly. The fact is you need testosterone or some derivitave of it to build lean muscle tissue. In our teens he have a strong, steady supply of the hormone and our muscle building capability from the ages of 15-20 is considerable. From 21 onwards the amount of natural testosterone we produce reduces gradually for the rest of our lives. You DO NOT have the required amount in your mid to late 20's to attain dramatic muscular change, particularly if your muscles have been exposed to years of weight training as many rugby players have been. This is why we have seen Marcus Horan attempt to increase his weight and gain nothing but....fat. I would wager he is clean. This is why athletes turn to steroids. Steroids are being used in sport and players are finding clever ways to hide it because the average detection time of a testosterone, of which there are many kinds, is three months.

toomevara

The tests used by the IRB are wholly inadequate. The problem is they're not testing for the right substances. The major issue is human growth hormone which is naturally produced in the body and very difficult to detect if administered properly and new synthetic substances like those produced on the quiet by the likes of BALCO laboratories.

You can't test for a drug if you don't know (or in the case of the international olympic committee, don't want to know) it exists, which is essentially why Marion Jones et al got away with their systematic doping for so long. It was only when a disgruntled former employee spilled the beans on their latest pharmacuetical creations that authorities wised up and caught these guys.

It goes on in rugby, no doubt. The only question is one of scale, and frankly, if other professional sports are an indicator, and there's no reason why they shouldnt be, doping whether systematic or intermittent is likely to be relatively prevalent.

vorbis

I'd be of the opinion that its fairly common. Obviously diets are much better now but the comparsion between the amateur and professional era are vast.

Most bodybuilding guides (I'm no expert btw) suggest 3 - 4 weight sessions a week is optimum. You need some rest between sessions. I'm sure some amateur players had a good training schedule as well and would have been well able to get to the gym for 3 - 4 sessions. Add to that though the aerobic exercise required for rugby and you struggle to believe that rugby players are at their current size naturally.

toomevara

A certain N.Hemisphere team seem of late to have gone from being relatively lightweight, fast mauling, fast rucking to monstrous leviathan size within a single off season...hmmmm.....

wireless101

zabbo wrote: »

Your chemistry teacher is speculating through his or her ringpiece tbh.

Lomu was a genetic freak, and there's no evidence that he was using steroids, he was massive by the time he was 18.

Ya, my teacher is probably wrong.

Anyone know a good place on the internet where I can get info on him?

Incidentally, is he still playing rugby?

RuggieBear

let's try to keep players names out of this....

Santa Claus

wireless101 wrote: »

Ya, my teacher is probably wrong.

Anyone know a good place on the internet where I can get info on him?

Incidentally, is he still playing rugby?

See my original post below about Lomu. He has a genetic kidney disorder so tell your chemistry teacher to stick to talking about bunsen burners and pipettes.
He left the Cardiff blues to go back to NZ and try to get some super 14 rugby and hope to be in the all blacks for this world cup however he only played for North Harbour in the Air new zealand cup and no super 14 club would take him on.
He's at the world cup with adidas at the moment and could be see in the stand at the Arg Boks game.

As for info on him, you could try wikipedia but as whether it'll be accurate is another story!

Santa Claus wrote: »

Look at your average South pacific islander such as Joe, they're massive...that's just the way they come.
Look at the Fijian team in the cup, their back row are built like forwards and their forwards are built like heavy machinery !

Everyone said the same thing about Lomu and steroids and then claimed that his kidney transplant was because of steroid abuse (it wasn't, he has Nephrotic Syndrome).

Supercell

forbesii wrote: »

Lots of people are just throwing uninformed opinions around here willy nilly. The fact is you need testosterone or some derivitave of it to build lean muscle tissue.
You DO NOT have the required amount in your mid to late 20's to attain dramatic muscular change, particularly if your muscles have been exposed to years of weight training as many rugby players have been.

Foresii, these are pretty wild claims tbh, I'm no medic but I'm certain the guys on the fitness forum would rip these allegations to shreds!

I'm 36 and believe me I am putting on muscle where there was only fat before and its pretty dramatic by following a good training programme with weights and running.

I used to be a tight head prop, believe me..I used to lean in a lot..there wasn't a whole lot of weight training going on there - so no "muscle memory".

That said I've always been a bit hot headed, maybe I've an excess naturally of testosterstuff in me loins anyhow

AlphaMale 3OO

Longfield wrote: »

Foresii, these are pretty wild claims tbh, I'm no medic but I'm certain the guys on the fitness forum would rip these allegations to shreds!

I'm 36 and believe me I am putting on muscle where there was only fat before and its pretty dramatic by following a good training programme with weights and running.

I used to be a tight head prop, believe me..I used to lean in a lot..there wasn't a whole lot of weight training going on there - so no "muscle memory".

That said I've always been a bit hot headed, maybe I've an excess naturally of testosterstuff in me loins anyhow

There are only a handful of guys on the fitness forum who are well informed on the steroid issue. As for gaining muscle at an older age, I didn't say it can't be done, I said its difficult to attain dramatic muscular change within the space of time that this particular player did it. A 28 year old man cannot gain 20 lbs of muscle in 2 months naturally. This is simply impossible, believe me I am informed on the subject and it just doesn't happen and anyone who says it is possible is either lying, misinformed or have tried it and are including the inevitable fat tissue gained as part of their '20 lbs of muscle'. With steroids this is easily attainable. the team have gotten too big too fast and they do not have superior fitness resources at their disposal in comparison to all the other teams.

EDIT: And I've just read our post again and it seems this was the first time you've taken up weights? (no muscle memory). That would explain why your body has been more reactive to the stimulus your subjecting it to. But I may be misunderstanding you.

RuggieBear

lets not be too specific with allegations of steroid abuse please.

AlphaMale 3OO

Sorry.

RuggieBear

no worries. While i share your suspicions I'm not sure that they can be stated (published) on a public forum.

maradona10

what would be considered an acceptable weight gain following a hypertrophy program using natural methods over the course of a 1yr program.

i would think 1lb of lean muscle per month

20lbs in 2 months definitely sounds suspicious.

Snickers Man

I think Ventolin is the most widely abused substance. It's semi legal, ie you're entitled to use it if you're asthmatic. But I think either a huge percentage of sportsmen are asthmatic (which is highly unlikely) or people are using it to boost their oxygen capacity.

arybvtcw0eolkf

wireless101 wrote: »

My chemistry teacher said that Lomu is f*ucked up now because of taking anabolic steroids

Cool, so then.

What steroid/steroids caused his urinary problems?.

zAbbo

maradona10 wrote: »

what would be considered an acceptable weight gain following a hypertrophy program using natural methods over the course of a 1yr program.

i would think 1lb of lean muscle per month

20lbs in 2 months definitely sounds suspicious.

I'd say the mass of muscle/weight gain is done off season or pre-season. It's unlikely they're bulking mid-season, due to requiring stamina / endurance to compete week to week.

justsomebloke

it's sport so of course there are probably people taking steroids. The reason's people take steroids in one sport isn't different to them taking it in rugby.
There are are always going to be people who want that extra edge and aren't picky about how they get it, or naturally are a bit small or as they get older they aren't recovering naturally quick enough to take all the heavy knocks week in week out.

cavedave

What steroid/steroids caused his urinary problems?.

Too much of many things (like creatine) can cause kidney problems. Diagnosing someones illness on a forum would be unlikely to be accurate though. You could look at rates of illness though as these should average out over all professional rugby players.

The WWE has been lauded for its anti-steroid program and I would not bet on that being overly effective.

If you look at drug cheats you do notice they gain a large amount of muscle late in their carriers. Barry Bonds, De Bruin, Rocky 6...

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cavedave

Creatine is a steroid??

No creatine is not a steroid. It is one of many things though.
Specifically it is a protein that naturally occurs in the body. If you take too much you excrete it in your urine. If you excrete too much the belief is you can damage your kidneys.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cavedave

I'll buy you a pint if you can find me a study on PubMed that says there's any risk to someone with healthy kidneys.

There is no evidence that creatine taken in low doses has any effect on the kidneys. I did say "take too much".
http://www.mikefrancois.com/creatinekidney.htm

I will now look for an article that says "If you take more then 100 grams of creatine a day that might be unwise"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=10075534&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/340/10/814
Sheth NP, Sennett B, Berns JS. Rhabdomyolysis and acute renal failure following arthroscopic knee surgery in a college football player taking creatine supplements. Clin Nephrol. 2006 Feb;65(2):134-7.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/p21h047gwj46027p/

gosplan

I'd imagine that since Rugby is a professional sport, it goes on to some degree.

The demands of the game are increasing so much that it's actually becoming unrealistic to expect players to NOT take drugs.

Think one cyclist in the Tour De France said something along the lines of:

'and they want us to do all that on nothing more then fresh air?'

Professional rugby is becoming the same in that what's being asked of the players goes beyond what the body can manage. Training regiemes are so extensive that to be honest, many would see steroids as the next natural step.

I mean to on all sorts of legal muscle building products and get up at 3am to eat a big plate of pasta isn't natural in my book. It's a horrifying step for the average punter to think of but probably not that great a one for the dedicated sports person.

Rugby's getting so much positive coverage that I imagine the powers that be want to avoid any mention of it. I don't think this means anything's being supressed though. If players were on anything it would have been at their clubs a few months ago. I can't see interational teams going in for widespread doping because you've 30 players who then go their separate ways and you can't keep that quiet.

Some people I'm just naturally suspicious of based on their build. I do believe that there are bodies that are not achievable through natural means and I think there's a few of them in the world cup.

justsomebloke

cavedave wrote: »

I will now look for an article that says "If you take more then 100 grams of creatine a day that might be unwise"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=10075534&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/340/10/814
Sheth NP, Sennett B, Berns JS. Rhabdomyolysis and acute renal failure following arthroscopic knee surgery in a college football player taking creatine supplements. Clin Nephrol. 2006 Feb;65(2):134-7.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/p21h047gwj46027p/

I can't see the full text of the first 2, however it doesn't seem to be a study rather that one person may have had a problem (however as I can't see the full article I can't say anything about it as it may or may not be related to creatine)

in the last one however

The limited number of studies that have addressed the issue of the chronic use of creatine have not seen remarkable changes in renal function.

would seem to suggest that there are no links so far between creatine and renal function. You also mention in your post that you are talking about people who take "too" much, however if you take too much of anything including vitamins it can lead to problems but you would hardly suggest to people that they shouldn't have vitamins in their diet?

cavedave

would seem to suggest that there are no links so far between creatine and renal function

If you take creatine to rebuild what is lost in muscles, and bring creatine levels up to what your muscles can take the evidence seems pretty convincing that it is harmless to almost all healthy people. If you take it to the point where your muscles cannot take in anymore and you are just peeing it out you are at best wasting money. The medical papers do not seem to say that eating bucket loads of the stuff will pox up your kidneys. They do seem to say it seems unwise and in a few cases we have seen bad consequences that may have been caused by overuse.

Everything (including water and oxygen) if you take too much of it will injure you.

wireless101

wireless101 wrote: »

My chemistry teacher said that Lomu is f*ucked up now because of taking anabolic steroids

Well.Your chemistry teacher is a moron!How would he know anything?Does he know Jonah Lomu well?

damnyanks

It's pretty naive to think no drug taking happens in rugby. It's a highly physical game and played at the top level has very little time for players to recover in between games.

Wasn't their a thing years ago about some Irish players having drugs in their system after the IRFU tested them but never released.

Possibly hear say.

RuggieBear

off the top of my head, I can think of two Irish pros who have failed drug tests...god bless their flu and asthma.

IThere are probably more i just can't remember at the moment.

Sangre

while I'm not naieve enough to believe there is no drug taking in the sport we do have to remember that these people are professional athletes who became athletes because of their genetic gifts e.g. muscle growth.

and I wouldn't dismiss offhand those who say a sports organisation would cover this up, there have been constant examples through out the history of sport.

AlphaMale 3OO

Snickers Man wrote: »

I think Ventolin is the most widely abused substance. It's semi legal, ie you're entitled to use it if you're asthmatic. But I think either a huge percentage of sportsmen are asthmatic (which is highly unlikely) or people are using it to boost their oxygen capacity.

Taking ventolin or salbutomol for increased performance is virtually pointless and it is not a particularly anabolic substance. If ou were trying to gain muscle you wouldn't choose it first.