Three 25X's taken off the route!!!!

AlekSmart

SuperG..whoa there a minute...don`t go at this stage...!
It appears to me that JohnR has taken quite some time to read and delve deeper into the 1932 Transport Act than anybody else in recent times.

I am quite surprised to see that any Minister for Transport has for the past 70 years had the power to regulate Bus Services in such a comprehensive manner.
The recent "Debates" have all conspired to convince us that the 1932 act was written by Luddites using Vellum and Blood as a medium.

At he very least,John R`s opinions or revelations merit further discussion and perhaps some response from the Secretary General or the Minister as to WHAT specifically about this act renders it unusable to the extent we are constantly told it is........so far I can only put forward sloth or disinterest as valid reasons...

It is time for serious debate and it should be recognized that our 1932 Transport Act may well be far in advance of anything which Europe may have in Its armoury if we only had the self-confidence to stand our ground...???

Victor

John R, have you made sure to check for amendments to the acts?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/isbc/1932.html etc.

Importantly http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/sec0017.html

AlekSmart

Well Done Victor !!

Top marks for illustrating just how easy it is for the Rule Book to be "Amended" when it`s considered expedient by the ruling classes.

The element of the act you refer to is something which has caused me a bit of head scratching in the past.

I was amazed at the time of the Aircoach startup that a Government Department with responsibility for ensuring that ALL Public Transport complied with the (then emerging) requirements of Disability Access leglislation allowed a New Entrant to specify and deploy a fleet of BRAND NEW totally inaccessible Hi-Floor Touring Coaches on what is a Public Commuter service.

Of equal interest is the continuation of the Departmental largesse towards Mr O Sullivan and latterly the First Group in relation to this.
It`s notable that Bus Atha Cliath in particular but Bus Eireann also,have made strong committments towards fully accessible operation within as short a time frame as possible.

Bus Eireann however,in common with the Provincial/Mid Commuter Bus/Coach Transport sector in general are experiencing problems with the specification,availibility and operation of Accessible Designs given the rather patchy availibility of servicable designs from the major Manufacturers.

I have no actual problem with the concept of Aircoach being a Premium Rate Added Value NON ACCESSIBLE Service,as that is a market niche which IS obviously successful and is satisfying a substantial demand.

However... IF the Governmental Policy towards Disabled Access to Public Transport is to mean anything then that policy MUST be applied accross ALL operators PARTICULARLY New Entrants.

There has never been a problem finding a Government Minister or Departmental Flunkey to take part in a Photo-Shoot for the introduction of a new Low-Floor Bus or Rail Car or the unveling of a newly facilitated station.

The Minister for Transport formerly known as Seamus Brennan TD however,remains the only politician brave enough to have his snap taken sitting behind the wheel of the then new inaccessible Setra Aircoach.

Interestingly it appears that at that Press launch not a Single Journalist posed the very pertinent question to "The Boss" concerning his Departments role in ignoring his own Governments policy on disability access.

It remains to be seen whether First Group plc are prepared to stump up the added investment required to make Aircoach a fully accessible operation as their Bus operations in the UK tend to make full use of older vehicles on any routes which do not meet it`s reputed 18% rate of return on investment.

It may well be that the smell and feel of nicely creaking leather trimmings ( :rolleyes: ) is somewhat better at attracting the punters than the blue/white Disabled Access sticker...but then Miss Whiplash proved that to be true many decades ago along the corridors of power in Whitehall.....

John R

Victor wrote: »

John R, have you made sure to check for amendments to the acts?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/isbc/1932.html etc.

I have gone through most of them, (the direct ones anyway, do amendments to amendments get referenced back to the original act?) and the only major change was the various flavours of an EEC/EU directive that allows operators of services between two or more EU nations to be exempt from the acts as long as they have a licence under the EU regs.


This is why BE have been able to increase and improve the Dub-Belfast service despite Aircoach while they were blocked from doing the same on Dublin-Cork, they are both operating under the EU regs which do not restrict competition and are outside the control of Kildare St.

Victor wrote: »

Importantly http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/sec0017.html

Different Act, same shít.

The Minister can... but as Alek points out, when it comes to putting the needs of the public before the finances of private individuals/companies (that in no way have any connection whatsoever to Fianna Fail or Galway Race tents or manilla envelopes) he doesn't.


As I have already said the current regs are more than enough to allow controlled competition between all players with an emphasis on the provision of a good service that is operated for the benefit of the public and not the provision of services that operators want to cherry-pick the maximum revenue they can extract from the small section of the public that will give them big profits.

John R

AlekSmart wrote: »

Bus Eireann however,in common with the Provincial/Mid Commuter Bus/Coach Transport sector in general are experiencing problems with the specification,availibility and operation of Accessible Designs given the rather patchy availibility of servicable designs from the major Manufacturers.

Not any longer, the new batch of Scania coaches BE have bought are wheelchair accessible. Pictures Here.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I have no actual problem with the concept of Aircoach being a Premium Rate Added Value NON ACCESSIBLE Service,as that is a market niche which IS obviously successful and is satisfying a substantial demand.

The problem is that regular fare, accessible services (24hr 746 for example) have been refused permission so as to facilitate this premium non-accessible profit-grab.

AlekSmart wrote: »

However... IF the Governmental Policy towards Disabled Access to Public Transport is to mean anything then that policy MUST be applied accross ALL operators PARTICULARLY New Entrants.

That is quite obviously not happening in any shape or form, with the exception of Mortons/Circle Line I can't think of any operator who has majorly invested in accessible buses for licenced services. There are some that have introduced them here and there as they have come on the second-hand market but I am certain this has been of their own doing rather than by ordet of the minister's flunkeys.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It remains to be seen whether First Group plc are prepared to stump up the added investment required to make Aircoach a fully accessible operation as their Bus operations in the UK tend to make full use of older vehicles on any routes which do not meet it`s reputed 18% rate of return on investment.

The operation is a massive money-spinner, if they were forced to use accessible buses they would. The question as always in this area is why have successive ministers not used their powers to specify types of bus, minimum service levels, fare parity with other services, proper publicity of timetables, etc.

Victor

John R wrote: »

Not any longer, the new batch of Scania coaches BE have bought are wheelchair accessible. Pictures Here.

Does that have a stairs lift or are you meant to gain access through the door over the luggage comaprtment?

That is quite obviously not happening in any shape or form, with the exception of Mortons/Circle Line I can't think of any operator who has majorly invested in accessible buses for licenced services. There are some that have introduced them here and there as they have come on the second-hand market but I am certain this has been of their own doing

I saw a Malahide Coaches double decker in metalic blue on hire to BÉ with low floor access.

the minister's flunkeys.

jimmycrackcorm

MiniD wrote: »

Because most commuters use prepaid tickets, some monthly, some annual. A lot of commuters avail of tax saver tickets provided by their employer. Some commuters need to connect with different buses to complete their journey. There are lots of reasons why passengers cannot use Mortons buses.

Again, the bigger problem here, is why does Dublin STILL not have integrated ticketing?

Mortons have a prepaid smart card and I have their taxsaver equivalent which is half the cost of the DB equivalent. Also their busses are generally more comfortable ( high back seats in the one I get ) and nowhere near as crowded as the 25A/X in the morning. The only advantage of DB is where you can switch buses with say a travel 90.

KC61

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Mortons have a prepaid smart card and I have their taxsaver equivalent which is half the cost of the DB equivalent. Also their busses are generally more comfortable ( high back seats in the one I get ) and nowhere near as crowded as the 25A/X in the morning. The only advantage of DB is where you can switch buses with say a travel 90.

Of course the ticket is cheaper than Dublin Bus - Mortons only operate two principal routes (Celbridge and Lucan to City and Nutgrove)!!

The Dublin Bus option allows you to travel around the entire city, change buses, and to travel at weekends and in the late evening, none of which you can do with Mortons.

MiniD

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Mortons have a prepaid smart card and I have their taxsaver equivalent which is half the cost of the DB equivalent. Also their busses are generally more comfortable ( high back seats in the one I get ) and nowhere near as crowded as the 25A/X in the morning. The only advantage of DB is where you can switch buses with say a travel 90.

Mortons smart card is not exactly smart, it's simply a pre-paid ticket. A smart card lets you integrate with other modes of transport. Despite what Luas and Mortons claim, they do not offer a smart card system. While Luas do allow some flexibility with topping up etc. it comes nowhere near what is needed in Dublin. I find it funny how both Mortons and Luas claim to offer a smart card to customers, yet if you try to use your Luas smart card on a Mortons bus, you won't get very far.

Your point about the crowded 25A/X is down to Mortons, who continually block any plans by Dublin Bus to increase frequency in the Lucan and Celbridge area. Try using your smart card in the evenings when Mortons stop running.

You shouldn't have to choose between operators. You should have one ticket which will get you from a-b regardless of which operator is running the service.

davmi

The DoT are currently working on an integrated ticket scheme however with the ancient laws that govern transport it will be a long time yet...

Mortons were given a load more times a while ago buy the DoT, however DB put on these 3 extra buses illegally in response and mortons withdrew their services claiming they couldn't compete. I believe Mortons are looking for a new scaled down (in comparison to what they were granted not to what they operate!) and Dublin Bus can't be dealt with til after that.

Much of the problem with DB comes from the fact that if a private operator is already on a route they must apply under section 25 of some act (1951 I think..) to run and unsubsidised service. They won't do this! That basically where the problem is coming from. They feel they've a right to more money than other operators even though private operators usually charge competitive rates.

Carawaystick

Integrated ticketing is under the remit of the RPA. as one of the first steps in integrated ticketing they introduced TWO disintegrated smartcard systems; one for the trams and one for Mortons. While these may be smartcards, they are not particularily clever. the luas ticket does not charge you the equivalent multi trip fare ( weekly, monthly annual etc.) depending on usage- it always charges half the return trip.

Surely if Mortons were offering a better service, they could compete - a gap of 95 mins between services is a crock of horse p00 at off peak times, never mind in the morning rush hours.

Again you seem to think the bus service should be run for the benefit of the bus companies not the citizens of the areas served.

MiniD

davmi wrote: »

Mortons were given a load more times a while ago buy the DoT, however DB put on these 3 extra buses illegally in response and mortons withdrew their services claiming they couldn't compete. I believe Mortons are looking for a new scaled down (in comparison to what they were granted not to what they operate!) and Dublin Bus can't be dealt with til after that.

I presume you mean the all day service which Mortons launched earlier this year. If so, then these 3 additional Xpresso buses have nothing to do with an all day service. Xpressos run at peak times only. Why would extra buses at peak times force Mortons to withdraw their all day service?

It is also worth pointing out that when Mortons launched their all day service, their website had no timetables, their bus stops had no timetables or route information and the service was withdrawn without any notice to passengers. I would imagine this had a bigger dent on their service than an extra 25X.

As for integrated ticketing, the state has spent €10 Million on integrated ticketing over the last few years, and we have absolutely nothing to show for it. I don't believe this is down to ancient laws, but rather nobody willing to put the interests of the commuter first.

KC61

davmi wrote: »

The DoT are currently working on an integrated ticket scheme however with the ancient laws that govern transport it will be a long time yet...

Mortons were given a load more times a while ago buy the DoT, however DB put on these 3 extra buses illegally in response and mortons withdrew their services claiming they couldn't compete. I believe Mortons are looking for a new scaled down (in comparison to what they were granted not to what they operate!) and Dublin Bus can't be dealt with til after that.

Much of the problem with DB comes from the fact that if a private operator is already on a route they must apply under section 25 of some act (1951 I think..) to run and unsubsidised service. They won't do this! That basically where the problem is coming from. They feel they've a right to more money than other operators even though private operators usually charge competitive rates.

I think that you will find that the 25X Adamstown service was in place before Mortons enhanced service started.

As MiniD states, these are just three inbound services, and three outbound.

If this is the sole reason for Mortons to remove late evening services, and to have no weekend services I will eat my hat.

I see Mortons buses every day in south Dublin between Ballsbridge and Nutgrove - they are ghost buses - without passengers. It might work from Celbridge to the city, but the rest of the route is very quiet. There is no information on any stops or on the web. What way is that to treat customers.

Mortons knew exactly what they were getting into when they started these services, and to start crying foul now is a bit rich. There were no other additional buses on routes 25/66/67 in 2007. Dublin Bus are no angels in any of this either, but the whole situation is in place due to governmental inaction.

Having operators draw their own routes on a map just doesn't work - it needs integrated route planning to avoid this nonsense of operators arguing over who operates along a particular route.

Heart

The services which were withdrawn were 3 extra 25X services from the Newcastle Road terminus, not the Adamstown services, these are licensed.

The removal of 3 un-timetabled 25X from the route in the morning has meant that buses are filling up before they get to stops later along the route, leaving people behind.

I don't agree with the situation, but just wanted to clear up the facts about which departures were in question.

davmi

Davidth88 wrote: »

I for one am fed up with the situation re the stupid halfway bus sitation .

Celbridge is suffering because of Mortons, Dublin Bus have busses earmarked to improve the 67 service that are sitting there because they are not allowed to change the timetable.

Then Mortons are , cutting the service during the day , and getting rid of the evening service.

I have no loyalty to any company , but the way private bus companies can basically hold areas to ransom is frankly stupid.

Mortons aren't completely innocent as has been pointed out they looked for more services, got them and then decided they couldn't do them. Also the way licences are issued is too blame but thats a matter for politicians not civil servants to change.

As regard the comment above the DoT had not received any application from DB to increase the number of 67s!! They may have received one since this started but this was stated by the DoT about 2 weeks ago when this broke. DB claimed the DoT were the reason buses were sitting unused but this is not true!

AlekSmart

Quote KC61..... " Having operators draw their own routes on a map just doesn't work - it needs integrated route planning to avoid this nonsense of operators arguing over who operates along a particular route." [End]

Prob the most accurate summation of the current state of play in this Country.

We are discussing now the provision of Bus Based Public Transport services into one of the largest developments in this State.

Yet we are discussing it in a combative,regressive and almost insane manner largely without recognizing the FACT that developments of this magnitude are supposed to be PLANNED .

The provision of Water,Sewage,Electricity,Gas,Broadband(:eek:) and ALL the other essential services is SUPPOSED to be catered for at the PLANNING stage.

Instead we are all sagely poking around in the ashes left by the Professional Planners after they have pocketed their "Consultancy Fees" and moved off to pick over the next public carcass.

In the context of Adamstown,and Dublin as a whole we should be looking at a situation whereby ALL Bus Based public transport elements are planned,agreed,provided for and in place BEFORE people actually begin to take possession of their new domains.

The very first thing a new arrival should see on first entering a new development is the means to acces this new space by fast,frequent and reliable PUBLIC TRANSPORT.
That simple goal should not be something which appears to equate to Space Travel in Irish Public Administration terms,but it does !!

Politicians,and particularly Irish one`s have never been adept at understanding what the function and capacity of PUBLIC Transport,particularly Bus Based,actually is.
Nowhere was this better illustrated than in the UK post Margaret Thatcher/Nick Ridley and the stinging rebuke from Lady Thatcher about "Anybody still using the Bus past the age of 30 is a failure" would seemingly ring true for the Irish situation also.

All Politicans,particularly the more senior ones will eventually take cover from having to accept responsibility.
The usual route for this is for the relevant responsible MInister to loudly declaim that he/she was "Acting on the best advice then available to him/her"

Where does this "Advice" come from ?

Do the clouds above Kildare St regularly part in order that a Minsiter of the Oireacthas can commune with the God`s atop Mount Olympus ?

Do Ministers travel in procession to the Lake on Stephens Green to pay a ferryman to row them across the Styxx so that they can benefit from the knowledge of their long dead forefathers ?

Do they peer through the (grubby) venetian`s at the ever lengthening queues along Nassau St and ponder aloud...."I wonder what all them people are standin round for " ?

Has Mr Dempsey travelled to the outer reaches of the Adamstown peninsula each morning for the past week to actually observe whats happening ALONG the 25X route or its satellites ?

NO....It`s far more mysterious.....Our Politicans rely,depend on and expect all of their information on any given topic to come from the established Civil Service and particularly it`s higher Officers.

And one of the greatest problems in this entire farcical situation is the manner in which this Civil Service operates.
It is blatently apparent that entire Departments function without their constituent sectional parts actually communicating on a regular or defined basis.
Licencing doesnt talk to Infrastructure which in turn doesnt talk to Finance and the list goes on.....

The Knee bone in Irish Terms is most definitely NOT connected to the Thigh Bone which in turn swings around not connected to any other skeletal part of the Public Transport anatomy.....

This is what makes me worry that any rewritten "New Improved 2007" Transport Act might not be ANY better than Mr DeValera`s original (and Best?) version ....

*Page*

mortons are just pi$$ed because they didnt get the adamstown route...

they were going to do the route that the 151 now takes but dublin bus got it instead...