Judges stern warning to L drivers

gurramok

Just spotted this, a judge in Bray decides to uphold the law with threats of road bans for unaccompanied L drivers or without L plates starting in the new year.

It'll help road safety a bit in this part of town!

Henry Ford III

Good.

yayamark

Proper order.

jhegarty

Can't see what difference it will make...


don't these cases not end up in court because of the guards, not the judges ?

Vain

thats a JOKE iv been waiting 4months for my test now its not my fault im still on L plates. anyway who here can say they drive as carefully every day as they did during there test. if it cuts down on road deaths good but its not fair to be blaming L plates when the waiting list is so long..

tuxy

Don't worry the government have promised to cut waiting times!

MrPudding

Vain wrote:

thats a JOKE iv been waiting 4months for my test now its not my fault im still on L plates. anyway who here can say they drive as carefully every day as they did during there test. if it cuts down on road deaths good but its not fair to be blaming L plates when the waiting list is so long..

See here is the thing. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and go ahead and assume you are a good driver and you are capable of passing the test and you wuld be legal but for the fact the waiting is so long. So what?

Are all learners as capable? I think not, and that is the problem. yes, there are full licence holder that are sh1t as well, and their behaviour is covered by certain laws and they can be prosecuted under those laws.

Waiting time is a bullsh1t excuse for driving unaccompanied. We need a system of deciding who is capable of driving to a minimum standard, instead we have a sh1t test that most people don't bother doing and over 50% of those that do can't pass.

Personally I am glad a judge is finally taking these offences seriously and I hope he gets plenty of business.

MrP

Anan1

jhegarty wrote:

Can't see what difference it will make...


don't these cases not end up in court because of the guards, not the judges ?

How do you mean? The judge said there are large numbers of learners coming before him on 'strings of offences'.

Keith186

It's not fair to ban L driver for driving unaccompanied when you have to wait about 10 months for a test.

When the waiting list is only 6 weeks by all means impose proper penalties.
We pay tax and a charge for the test so I don't see what the problem is now arranging a 6 week maximum waiting period to sit the test except the fact too many people don't really give a crap about how bad the country is run and voted for the same government.

"A lot done, more to do" - we'll be hearing this one for decades at this rate!

skyhighflyer

Anan1 wrote:

How do you mean? The judge said there are large numbers of learners coming before him on 'strings of offences'.

I think he means that while the guards may pick up L Drivers for dangerous driving and other offences, they're unlikely to bother taking any of the hundreds of thousands of L drivers on the road for driving unaccompanied without some other offence to go with it.

Anan1

skyhighflyer wrote:

I think he means that while the guards may pick up L Drivers for dangerous driving and other offences, they're unlikely to bother taking any of the hundreds of thousands of L drivers on the road for driving unaccompanied without some other offence to go with it.

But how could they be coming before the judge if the Guards aren't charging them?;)

stovelid

I might add to this that if the judge finds out that the L driver has previously canceled a driving test, throw a large fine on top of the ban too...

littlejukka

a straight ban is a bit harsh for a first offense, but if they're seen in court twice for the same offense they should be given a 6-month ban. these are "learner drivers". if they can't learn from the first court appearance then they clearly aren't capable of learning and should be taken off the road for a while for everyone's sake.

RoundyMooney

Meh.

The moral of the story is, if you're on a provisional, and drive unaccompanied, don't end up on the receiving end of a summons.

In any event, proactive or otherwise judges laying down localised laws mean little if such a practise isn't applied across the board on a nationwide level...

Wishbone Ash

Vain wrote:

but its not fair to be blaming L plates when the waiting list is so long..

Only one third of those holding provisional licences are on a waiting list for a test. What about the other two thirds? What's their excuse?

BlackWizard

littlejukka wrote:

a straight ban is a bit harsh for a first offense, but if they're seen in court twice for the same offense they should be given a 6-month ban. these are "learner drivers". if they can't learn from the first court appearance then they clearly aren't capable of learning and should be taken off the road for a while for everyone's sake.

I agree with that alright. First offense should be a warning. Shame the warning couldn't be followed up in a few months. But I think just a warning for a first offense is fine.

I'm a L driver. Have been for a month. Driving on my own for the last two weeks. Now I'm waiting on the driving test.

I honestly don't think that if I passed a driving test tomorrow, that the next day I would be a better driver. I think as every day and week that goes by, I'm becoming a better driver. Not so much better, but more confident and aware of other drivers on the road. I think experience is the best teacher, not a driving exam. But by lord are there some dangerous drivers out there. I don't want to sound stereo typical/racist or start a rant. But there has to be some sort of basic tests done before people are allowed get behind the steering wheel. Insurance companies should maybe offer courses? I think an Irish company is doing this.

Edit: What is an offense? I was thinking of something small like stopping in a yellow box. But if it depends on the offense. Id have to hear the offense before saying "first and final warning".

stepbar

Sounds like a judge is throwing a bit of a tissy fit...... Until we have a proper driving test system which allows a test / retest within 6-8 weeks of an application and driving restrictions on the car you can drive (i.e. engine size, speed limiter), the present provisional driving system will be always a joke. I would agree with a 10 lesson rule where your driving instructor would give the go ahead for you to drive unaccompanied (at least until your test) based on your performance during the lessons.

That being said, it would be also interesting to implement a system (for fully licensed drivers) where by said driver would have to take a test every 10 years or so. Maybe it might shut the "I've got a full license, I can drive" brigade up and increase driving standards. As a provisional driver, it annoys the fcuk out of me when I see supposedly "safe" drivers (i.e. those with a "full license" forgetting how to use mirrors, indicators etc having total disregard for speed limits and so on) taking liberties on the road.

NiSmO

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NiSmO

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Anan1

NiSmO wrote:

This post has been deleted.

No, but it's not every other road user's fault either. No offence, but the roads are dangerous enough already without our having to share them with unaccompanied learners.

Guy:Incognito

Keith186 wrote:

It's not fair to ban L driver for driving unaccompanied when you have to wait about 10 months for a test.!

Of course it is. What difference does it make how long the wait is? The rule is your not allowed to drive on your own. Why does it suddenly become a now now now really urgent matter that you cant live without driveing once midnight hits and your 17? Everyone knows theres delays so allow for the fact you cant drive alone for up to a year after getting your provisional. You dont have a god given right to be driving just because you've hit the minimum age.


The Germans seem to get by fine with their drawn out system of having to have a minimum amount of lessons and driving time, written/theory and driving tests before they are allowed a licence to drive alone, I dont see why Irish people think its something they should be given automaticaly.

"banning " them is only forcing them to stop doing something they are not allowed do in the first place.

Holsten

Glad I don't live in Bray.

Pete4779

Keith186 wrote:

It's not fair to ban L driver for driving unaccompanied when you have to wait about 10 months for a test.

True, and many 17 year olds have to wait 12 months (TWELVE!) before they can drink alcohol, so really it's unfair, I reckon they should just go and drink anyway.

Stekelly

Stekelly wrote:

The Germans seem to get by fine with their drawn out system of having to have a minimum amount of lessons and driving time, written/theory and driving tests before they are allowed a licence to drive alone, I dont see why Irish people think its something they should be given automaticaly.

I wouldnt agree with setting a minimum amount of lessons as different drivers have different ability etc. I drove for about 6 months then did two lessons and passed the test first time I would have gone mad if I was forced to spend hundreds of euro on lessons. I did have the advantage of learning to drive at an eairly age though on the farm etc.

Seinas

I never had an accompanied driver with me, and my friends still on provisional licences never drive with a full licence driver... its a law that isnt even enforced properly, so why bother...

woop

just my feckin luck!

TerrorFirmer

Stekelly wrote:

Of course it is. What difference does it make how long the wait is? The rule is your not allowed to drive on your own. Why does it suddenly become a now now now really urgent matter that you cant live without driveing once midnight hits and your 17? Everyone knows theres delays so allow for the fact you cant drive alone for up to a year after getting your provisional. You dont have a god given right to be driving just because you've hit the minimum age.

What about all the people in their 20's that rely on their car to get to work amongst other things? It's not like the only L Drivers in this country are teenagers itching to drive for the hell of it.

I'm not saying that all L Drivers should be permitted to drive alone but when the wait for a test is so disgracefully long there should be at least some sort of leeway rather then 'if I catch you you're banned end of'.

Guy:Incognito

Davis Shrilling Ointment wrote:

I wouldnt agree with setting a minimum amount of lessons as different drivers have different ability etc. I drove for about 6 months then did two lessons and passed the test first time I would have gone mad if I was forced to spend hundreds of euro on lessons. I did have the advantage of learning to drive at an eairly age though on the farm etc.

Which is exactly whats wrong with the country. A minimum number of lessons with a qualified instructor is exactly what is needed for everybody before they should be let near a car alone, regardless of how good they think they are.


Driving lessons should not be a choice.

Guy:Incognito

HavoK wrote:

What about all the people in their 20's that rely on their car to get to work amongst other things? It's not like the only L Drivers in this country are teenagers itching to drive for the hell of it. .

What do all the people in ther 20's etc in other countries do? dont take a job that requires driving, be in in getting to/from work or as part of the job, if you cant drive. It doesnt take a genius to work that out.

HavoK wrote:

I'm not saying that all L Drivers should be permitted to drive alone but when the wait for a test is so disgracefully long there should be at least some sort of leeway rather then 'if I catch you you're banned end of'.

Again I'll use Germany as an example. It takes months to get alicence there because of the need for lessons etc, so just because its the wait for the actual test to come up here instead of mandaotry training, its more or less the same situation.

Seinas wrote:

I never had an accompanied driver with me, and my friends still on provisional licences never drive with a full licence driver... its a law that isnt even enforced properly, so why bother...

Lots of laws can be gotten away with , why bother with any of them so? Why bother getting tax/insurance/nct etc if its not properly enforced. Theres plenty of ways to get an insurance disk without paying for a years insurance, so why not?

The tax man

Accused drank.....
What did they drink,how much and what did they do next?
Oh the suspense.

TerrorFirmer

Stekelly wrote:

What do all the people in ther 20's etc in other countries do? dont take a job that requires driving, be in in getting to/from work or as part of the job, if you cant drive. It doesnt take a genius to work that out.

most other countries have a proper testing system meaning you don't have to wait a significant chunk of your life for one.

Cionád

woop wrote:

just my feckin luck!

Location: Bray, priceless.

I wouldn't worry about it to be honest, every few months a story like this comes along and scares all the learners ... like it did for me many times!! ... nothing will come of it. I doubt many a guard will take you to court for driving alone while on 1st/3rd provisional. The judge mentions "strings of offences" so the fact they were driving alone was probably thrown in with other (more serious) offences such as dangerous driving, driving without insurance or whatever got them in trouble in the first place.

Guy:Incognito

HavoK wrote:

most other countries have a proper testing system meaning you don't have to wait a significant chunk of your life for one.

I'll quote myself on this one.

Stekelly wrote:

Again I'll use Germany as an example. It takes months to get alicence there because of the need for lessons etc, so just because its the wait for the actual test to come up here instead of mandaotry training, its more or less the same situation.

Bottom line is nobody "needs" to break laws to drive. There are ways and means of obeying the law. Laziness is not an excuse.

Stekelly

Stekelly wrote:

Which is exactly whats wrong with the country. A minimum number of lessons with a qualified instructor is exactly what is needed for everybody before they should be let near a car alone, regardless of how good they think they are.


Driving lessons should not be a choice.

Well the driving instructer just brought me around the test course a few times and told me Id pass no problem. So what was the instructer going to teach me? I would consider myself to be a good driver but I dont go around thinking im invincible either. also I passed my test 5 years ago not recently. I was driving machinery when I was 10 big difference from a person from the city driving a small car for the first time at 17.

cazzy

HavoK wrote:

most other countries have a proper testing system meaning you don't have to wait a significant chunk of your life for one.

Stop moaning, stick your L plates up, apply for your test 6 months before you start driving lessons if you cant wait that long. (thats what I did)

I totally agree with the rule - most accidents in this contry are caused by drivers who have passed their test in last year (according to the experts you are a novice driver for 5 years after starting driving)

In Northern Ireland you are resricted for a full year after passing your test, must wear R Plates (Similar to L plates) and cant drive over something like 45 mph.

Im all on for that here - I passed my driving test but I know Im still not a fully competent driver in every respect as the driving test here is a joke and doesnt test a person fully at all for all hazards and control of car during hazards. In some countries the test involves 3 or 4 stages and only on last stage can the student go out onto the main roads. the first few tests are in controlled environment and test for control of car in hazard situations.

BeautifulLoser

As a now fully licenced driver who drives to work every day I'd welcome such an initiative. Seeing the amount of learner drivers on the road that can't do many of the basic things right is shocking.

In an ideal scenario, consideration would be taken for learners who have applied for a test, but in the current system, due to the mind-boggling waiting times, people get their provisional licence and apply for the test on the same day knowing that in 10 months time they'll be ready to take it.

The situation must be stopped where by people can get a provisional licence, get into a car and start driving without any tuition whatsoever. It's just too dangerous. For them and everyone else.

In Italy at least, you learn how to drive (accompanied) and when you're ready, apply for the test which you sit within the week.

The situation could be helped greatly by:
1. Reduced waiting times
2. A decent public transport system (so that those waiting for a test are not greatly inconvenienced by not being able to drive unacompanied)

And don't get me started on the fact that if you fail your test you can drive away from the test centre...

Learners can drive unacompanied on their 2nd provisional by the way..

Anyone know if there's anything stopping you getting your 2nd licence immediately after getting the first? Does it have to expire??

Guy:Incognito

Davis Shrilling Ointment wrote:

Well the driving instructer just brought me around the test course a few times and told me Id pass no problem. So what was the instructer going to teach me? I would consider myself to be a good driver but I dont go around thinking im invincible either. also I passed my test 5 years ago not recently. I was driving machinery when I was 10 big difference from a person from the city driving a small car for the first time at 17.

The standard of the test and driving instructors is a debate for another thread.

Caching someone well enough to pass the test is probably not beyond the skills of any hafl decent test. Unfortunately that seems to be enough as far as drivers and instructors are concerned. Passing the test as it is is no indication of being a good, never mind very good, driver.

Inexperienced drivers who decribe themselves as good drivers are probably anything but.

Stekelly

Stekelly wrote:

The standard of the test and driving instructors is a debate for another thread.

Caching someone well enough to pass the test is probably not beyond the skills of any hafl decent test. Unfortunately that seems to be enough as far as drivers and instructors are concerned. Passing the test as it is is no indication of being a good, never mind very good, driver.

Inexperienced drivers who decribe themselves as good drivers are probably anything but.

I fully agree that the standard of the test is very poor and that there are a lot of very poor drivers on the roads both on provisonal licences and with full licences the point im trying to make is that it may not be necessary to put every driver through the expense and time of doing loads of lessons if they can show they are able to drive to the required standard after a few lessons. It will just turn into a big money spinner for instructers.

jimmycrackcorm

I'll say it again; Passing a driving test doesn't make a driver experienced. We'd also get much better road manners if we implemented driver testing the same way as the NCT - every few years.

wil

Passing a test doesnt make you experienced, it gives you the right to become experienced, much as an experienced doctor wasnt allowed to practice until they passed their exams.

What most Irish learners dont realise is Driving unaccompanied is a farcical anomaly that only exists in Ireland. There are developing countries that dont have as lax an attitude to learning as here.
Only when you go elsewhere (a dose of emigration might do some people some good) they cannot believe this goes on here. They cant believe we are so backward.

All it is is convenient and we dont like losing conveniences. The excuse of long test times is disappearing, There are threads starting of "my test came in 4 weeks, what do I do."

In England or Germany it not the police that stop you, its your own friends. They didnt and so you wont. But then you are considered old if you havent passed by 19. Well that gives you 2 years, should be enough for even the most uncoordinated. Its a cop out, just get down on your A and learn properly.

If you recall in the C4 series Shameless the character Fiona Gallagher got a job as a delivery driver but as she didnt have a full licence her family wouldnt let her drive, not till Marty (with full licence and Tourettes) helped out by going with her as accompanying driver on her rounds. This as a plot for a dysfunctional family in Manchester is absolutely realistic. However it would never happen in Ireland

A 40ish colleague in the UK couldnt pass his test so he came several miles to work by bike. He went to client meetings by train. We all had company cars. It was totally accepted

I passed my test without ever owning or access to a car other than the instructers. Thats how the rest of the developed world does it.

So much complacency in the system here. In 2004 a learner friend on first prov driving 40 miles to Dublin every day on her own rang her local garda station to inquire about it and was told driving on motorway wasnt a problem. And from the number of unaccompanied learners still on motorway I see, that so far is exactly the case.

If is happens, its a few decades late. Im sure there will be loads of complaining it contravenes constitutional rights and pleading to have bans lifted cos it interferes with their work. But pandering to the so many unlicenced drivers (a provisional is not a licence) is one reason the system is so complacent and slow to deal with the carnage on our roads.

Schlemm

Anan1 wrote:

But how could they be coming before the judge if the Guards aren't charging them?;)

So many L-drivers are complacent about it because the authorities are complacent about it. That sort of attitute filters down from the top and more people like that Judge need to speak out about it.
I was hit by a driver yesterday who was unaccompanied and on her first provisional (see thread) and the Insurance companies didn't seem too bothered about this fact...how can driving without obeying the terms of your licence be so insignifigant in a crash situation?! Do insurance companies actually stand by their clients, whether they're wrong or right in a situation, if they're driving alone with their first provisional?

craichoe

Jeeeesus ... Fully licensed drivers Vs Provisional

I think if you have a string of offenses you should be put off the road anyway, or have your full license taken off you and be made re-take your test.

Seriously, I don't see any difference between L Drivers, Foreign Drivers and Fully Licensed Irish drivers, they all seem to be equally as bad and some, equally as good.

The current system is a joke and the test is a joke, the theory test is a joke. I mean .. no requirement on hours you have to do before driving on your own ! its insane ! Just one test and thats it ... your fine?

IMO that Judge's statement means nothing. Judge Patwell in Cork is a total nutjob and has put people off the road for 6 months for what would be considered minor offenses.

If you get stopped and ticketed, pay it. If you commit a offense that requires you to go to court then so what .. YOU COMMITTED THE OFFENSE, deal with it, a pink piece of paper doesn't change the fact that you put people in danger,

i.e.
Dangerous Driving
Reckless Driving
Driving without due care and attention
Driving under the influence

Any of the above require court appearances.

Every other country in the EU (even Poland) look at Ireland and can't believe we have this system.

anyways, this thread has been done to death, and a judges statement in court means nothing. In fact it even brings about the total non uniformity of judgments.

Judge got laid last night - 70 euro fine and a warning
Judge got the cold shoulder - 2500 euro fine, 6 month ban and an endorsement.

Evil_Clown

It's true that there are many drivers on L plates looking for a test but on the other hand there are also loads of L plate drivers putting off there tests because this country allows them to freely drive on the road for years without passing any practical driving exam

On one hand i have a little sympathy for those who are on the waiting list
but on the other it will make a hell of alot of others join that list hopefully
Bring on more driving testers now mr government please

craichoe

Evil_Clown wrote:

It's true that there are many drivers on L plates looking for a test but on the other hand there are also loads of L plate drivers putting off there tests because this country allows them to freely drive on the road for years without passing any practical driving exam

On one hand i have a little sympathy for those who are on the waiting list
but on the other it will make a hell of alot of others join that list hopefully
Bring on more driving testers now mr government please

I think the point here is that the Judge stated he will put people off the road if they have a string of offenses and a provisional license.

Nothing to to with the waiting list imo.
He said nothing about going to court for driving unaccompanied.

Evil_Clown

craichoe wrote:

I think the point here is that the Judge stated he will put people off the road if they have a string of offenses and a provisional license.

Nothing to to with the waiting list imo.
He said nothing about going to court for driving unaccompanied.

If you have a string of offences and a full licence you should be put off the road

My point is that there are too many provisionally licenced drivers that have no intention of doing the test and that they should be punished thats all

craichoe

Evil_Clown wrote:

If you have a string of offences and a full licence you should be put off the road

My point is that there are too many provisionally licenced drivers that have no intention of doing the test and that they should be punished thats all

Start a new thread then

faceman

RoundyMooney wrote:

Meh.

The moral of the story is, if you're on a provisional, and drive unaccompanied, don't end up on the receiving end of a summons.

In any event, proactive or otherwise judges laying down localised laws mean little if such a practise isn't applied across the board on a nationwide level...

with you on this RM. as great as it is to hear a judge say it, an appeal to the judges decision will be sucessful on the grounds no other cases in other jurisdication have been ruled the same.

BeautifulLoser wrote:

As a now fully licenced driver who drives to work every day I'd welcome such an initiative. Seeing the amount of learner drivers on the road that can't do many of the basic things right is shocking.

unfortunately we also see just as many full license holders who cant do the basic things right either. even though im full license holder for a car and motorcycle, i dont think removing provisional licenses will solve the problems on our roads.

As other posters have said its down to training. Unfortunately even if improved training and minimum standards were rolled out tomorrow, it would be at least 20 years before we would see massive improvements in driving habits on the road.

Personally in the short term, i would like to see a massive advertising campaign with a big focus on ads in the cinema and on tv showing realistic scenarios on the road and the correct action particularly in the following areas:
* roundabouts
* overtaking
* using dual carriage ways and motorways
* indicating
* junctions

to compliment this, stricter enforcement of the ROTR would slowly help change attitudes.

Caliden

So what do I do if it's an emergency but I have no full licence holder to come with me?

tc20

Caliden wrote:

So what do I do if it's an emergency but I have no full licence holder to come with me?

You're safe in Galway for the time being Caliden, just avoid Bray

faceman

get a taxi!

Pipp

Stekelly wrote:

What do all the people in ther 20's etc in other countries do? dont take a job that requires driving, be in in getting to/from work or as part of the job, if you cant drive. It doesnt take a genius to work that out.




Again I'll use Germany as an example. It takes months to get alicence there because of the need for lessons etc, so just because its the wait for the actual test to come up here instead of mandaotry training, its more or less the same situation.





Lots of laws can be gotten away with , why bother with any of them so? Why bother getting tax/insurance/nct etc if its not properly enforced. Theres plenty of ways to get an insurance disk without paying for a years insurance, so why not?

Jeepers, the holier than though attitude on here from some posters is unbelievable. If you were as law abiding and perfect as you like to think you are youd be wearing a halo and wings!!
Anyway, I want to make a point here:
My husband is on a provisional license, and I have a full license. I spent a fortune on lessons and passed first time.
He did the same and failed first time, he immediately re-applied for the test. Due to a bizarre timing conincedence he injured his hand quite badly the day before the second test. So he reapplied again.
Third time round there was a death in the family - a beloved uncle of my husbands. So he didnt do his test, the GP gave him a letter. He was truly devastated so the bloomin driving test was simply put aside.
Now, my main point is regading a point someone made about "not getting a job that requires you to drive if you have a prov license". That is the biggest load of nonsense I have had the misfortune to read on this normally quite incitive forum.
My husband has to drive 40 miles each way to work. He works shift work. If he were to lose his job he would find it very hard to get equivalent work that would not require a car. He tried to get a job locally but no go. So, he has to drive.
We have a mortgage, and if my husband was taken off the road for having a prov license, he would be unable to get to work, public transport doesnt run at 4am. He would simply be fired.
My salary isnt large enough to sustain both the mortgage and two car loans, so what would happen then??
He applied for the test again in June and still hasnt got a date for the test.
The entire system is nonsense, and people like my husband should be looked after and given every chance to earn their license without being bullied off the road.