Which 9mm for Production

Chopperdog 2

I am trying to decide on which 9mm to buy to shoot IPSC Production division.

At the moment i am torn between a Glock 17 or a CZ SP 01.

Can anyone offer their first hand opinion of the pros and cons of either please.

P.S. Well done to Macnas and Oldzed, they fairly wrapped up their division at Hilltop on saturday. Too many mikes on my part, fouled a half decent performance in standard division :mad:

les45

The SPO1 was very much the dominant force in France , from talking to many of the production competitors at the match it seems that there is no other choice , but in saying that Rossa shoots his Para LDA very well , there is a SPO1 on the market at the moment , with enough ammo through it to sort out the trigger , PM me and I will pass on the contact info .

John

Rovi

Chopperdog 2 wrote:

I am trying to decide on which 9mm to buy to shoot IPSC Production division.

At the moment i am torn between a Glock 17 or a CZ SP 01.

Can anyone offer their first hand opinion of the pros and cons of either please.

P.S. Well done to Macnas and Oldzed, they fairly wrapped up their division at Hilltop on saturday. Too many mikes on my part, fouled a half decent performance in standard division :mad:

While being very fond of my CZ-75 TS, I have to admit that the whole 'finger off trigger = safety engaged' thing with the Glock is very attractive.
That said, once the noise has commenced, I find the natural 'pointability' and gorgeous single action trigger of the CZ to be much more to my liking.

Personal preference I suppose, and test driving both is really the only way to be sure. I have no intention of changing away from the CZ, but I do occasionally find myself looking at Glock triggers and wondering "What if?"

I was there on Saturday too (check shirt and orange hat), but I blame my 'performance' (:rolleyes:) on 33 hours of driving/flights and 4 hours of sleep the night before.

macnas

The most popular guns in production division seem to be the ones that offer highest capacity, the Para LDA and SP01 both have 18 round magazines. Mag capacities are a controversial subject at the moment and there is serious talk of a 15 round limit being brought in at the 2008 GA in Bali. This will open up the market a little bit more to other manufacturers like Sig, HK and Beretta.

The Para LDA would be my first choice, it's a 1911 (although if CG was here he wouldn't agree), it has a fantastic DAO trigger, it's a high cap 9mm, it's all steel with a bit of weight to it and it's reliable. On the down side, it's expensive (€1500) and the long reset trigger takes a bit of getting used to.

.....surely the LDA would be the perfect partner for your P16, eh Chop?

cantona

To quote the most knowledgeable man on IPSC Production guns
"at the moment there are only 3 guns for production, Glock 17, CZ 75 SP01
and Tangfolio.If we bring in a 15 round limit another 447 production guns become competitive"

The 15 round rule, if it comes in will not be introduced before Jan 1st 2009.

I myself have recently shot my Glock 22 in production, with reduced power loads(PF 140) but have found the 15 round capacity to be seriously disadvantaged against an 18 round 9mm.

So at the moment, go for highest mag capacity(SP01-18 €800, Para LDA-18 €1500(trigger does take getting used to), Glock 17-17 €600, Tangfolio-not sure of capacity, but price high)

My 2cents worth

MortgageMan

Hi Chopper

Saturday was a fantastic day in Hilltop, the variety of guns between Open, Standard & Production was mind boggling.

I would recommend some range time with a variety of club guns, there are a lot of glocks and Czs about as they as easy to get serial numbers for. The best gun to buy is the one that feels right in your hand, so try them all.

Enjoy the search.

packas

Rovi wrote:

While being very fond of my CZ-75 TS, I have to admit that the whole 'finger off trigger = safety engaged' thing with the Glock is very attractive.
That said, once the noise has commenced, I find the natural 'pointability' and gorgeous single action trigger of the CZ to be much more to my liking.

Personal preference I suppose, and test driving both is really the only way to be sure. I have no intention of changing away from the CZ, but I do occasionally find myself looking at Glock triggers and wondering "What if?"

I was there on Saturday too (check shirt and orange hat), but I blame my 'performance' (:rolleyes:) on 33 hours of driving/flights and 4 hours of sleep the night before.

Rovi. The CZ 75 TS is not approved for production division as far as I'm aware. Check out http://www.ipsc.org/proddiv.php for approved IPSC production division guns. The manual safety doesn't bother me at all. I only have it applied while gun in holster. Once the beep goes & I draw the safety comes off and stays until until end of COF.

As the others were saying the SP-01 was very popular in France. I suppose the fact that Adam Tyc & Angus Hobdell were both there also added to the hype around the SP-01. I'm sure if Dave Segivny was there there would have been a lot of Glock 17 hype also.

p.s. If you're buying new I'd go with the SP-01 shadow. It's got a decent safety that you can rest you thumb on (being a std. div. shooter I like this) & the trigger is a little better than the standard SP-01. Plus the shadow has got fibre optic front sight fitted. The shadow is supposed to be an upgraded SP-01 (with recommendations from......... yes you guessed it Adam & Angus
SP-01 is going for 750euro
SP-01 shadow is 825euro (www.Shoot.ie)
you can get extra mags frm the CZ shop online. I think they're about 35 yoyo each.

Pat.

Rovi

packas wrote:

Rovi. The CZ 75 TS is not approved for production division as far as I'm aware. Check out http://www.ipsc.org/proddiv.php for approved IPSC production division guns. The manual safety doesn't bother me at all. I only have it applied while gun in holster. Once the beep goes & I draw the safety comes off and stays until until end of COF.

I know, I probably should have clarified that. I shoot in Standard with it.
I was just pointing out the options of the Glock vs. CZ safety systems.

fishdog

I saw the CZ Shadow in Hollow Farm (Gordon Newal) about 2 weeks ago. Great gun, fantastic trigger. Very good price also. Very helpful (I have no connections there, just a customer!)

35 Drumhirk Road
Comber
Down
BT23 5SA

Email: hollowfarmsg@aol.com
Tel: (028) 9752 8381
Fax: (028) 9752 8643

oldzed

The sp01 is a very good gun . I used to have a cz85 pre b (old model) which was an excellent production gun and also it didnt have the disconnector bar that made the triggers in the newer models much worse , the sp01 has gone back to the same system and as such will have a better double action trigger, but only after a lot of shooting. i moved from the 85 because of the 15 round mags , i shoot a sig x5 allround with 17 round mags , I personally believe it is the best production piece out there and it will outshoot any other gun in production accuracy wise . If you shoot other disciplines like I do and shoot ppc 1500, bianchi, and bullseye then you are at nothing with the 75,s 85s or spo1s as they just cannot perform at 50m, If you can have a gun for each great , but the x5 is the only one that will cover both that I could vouch for . some of the other guns may cycle a fraction quicker but I find that I am making up for the speed with better accuracy and also the ability to take shots with the x5 that i could not take reliably with a cz ( without risking hitting penalty targets )so you end up moving more to get better shot angles with the czs . I wont comment on glocks , I personally hate them but they are a good production gun , other than that the lda is nice if you can get your head around the trigger, the berettas are crap as are the steyrs and tangs and the rest is rarely seen . Also bring a gunsmith if you are going to use a tang
The down side to the x5 is cost (around 2-2500 yo yo) but I believe it is the king.
Also for the record review the advice been given carefully as very few of the posters shoot production even though the advice is well intentioned .and bear in mind that the cz75 /spo1 that angus is shooting is not the sp01 you will take out of a box , production gun or not .

Yours in production shooting

zed

macnas

Ah Zed, I thought you would have liked the LDA trigger, it's almost like a tuned revolver

cantona

"Also for the record review the advice been given carefully as very few of the posters shoot production even though the advice is well intentioned"

What constitutes a production shooter?

1)Someone who only shoots production?
2)Someone who shoots production rarely?
3)Someone who shoots production frequently?
4)all of the above?


"The down side to the x5 is cost (around 2-2500 yo yo) but I believe it is the king."

Only a prince (twice removed) last saturday by over 10% to an LDA


"and bear in mind that the cz75 /spo1 that angus is shooting is not the sp01 you will take out of a box , production gun or not ."

Are you accusing Angus of che..ing?

"the berettas are crap as are the steyrs and tangs and the rest is rarely seen . Also bring a gunsmith if you are going to use a tang"

Hope no powers to be from Beretta, Steyr or Tangfolio read this post

packas

oldzed wrote:

Also for the record review the advice been given carefully as very few of the posters shoot production even though the advice is well intentioned .and bear in mind that the cz75 /spo1 that angus is shooting is not the sp01 you will take out of a box , production gun or not .

Yours in production shooting

zed

Mike,

With regards to the advice given and your statement that very few of the posters on this thread don’t shoot production. Just to clarify:- I have shot production. I used a Glock which I loved. Also Macnas & Cantona shot the Europeans as production shooters. So I believe the advice given is good advice. The reason I moved from production to standard is due to the fact that at the time I shot production there was very few shooting it. But I’m buying a production gun (SP-01 shadow) & I’ll be back giving it a lash again.
I do believe that the SP-01 that Angus & Adam used in France were production legal SP-01 shadows straight out of the box (USPSA is a different story). I don't think they'd risk it by tweaking them. To be honest at the end of the day it's down to the shooter & not the gun. Hell, even Dave Segivny with his Glock can beat tricked out classic standard division guns. At the Europeans I only saw one X5 all round. It was mostly SP-01’s & Glocks that people shot. The reason being is that you don’t need a 2000+ Euro gun to excel in production. My advice is to buy whatever you feel comfortable with & then go practice lots. There’s also the satisfaction of beating someone who has a really expensive gun e.g. Sphinx (2500 euor production gun) with your cheap Glock or CZ.


Regards,
Pat.

Gerri

oldzed wrote:

The sp01 is a very good gun . I used to have a cz85 pre b (old model) which was an excellent production gun and also it didnt have the disconnector bar that made the triggers in the newer models much worse , the sp01 has gone back to the same system and as such will have a better double action trigger, but only after a lot of shooting. i moved from the 85 because of the 15 round mags , i shoot a sig x5 allround with 17 round mags , I personally believe it is the best production piece out there and it will outshoot any other gun in production accuracy wise . If you shoot other disciplines like I do and shoot ppc 1500, bianchi, and bullseye then you are at nothing with the 75,s 85s or spo1s as they just cannot perform at 50m, If you can have a gun for each great , but the x5 is the only one that will cover both that I could vouch for . some of the other guns may cycle a fraction quicker but I find that I am making up for the speed with better accuracy and also the ability to take shots with the x5 that i could not take reliably with a cz ( without risking hitting penalty targets )so you end up moving more to get better shot angles with the czs . I wont comment on glocks , I personally hate them but they are a good production gun , other than that the lda is nice if you can get your head around the trigger, the berettas are crap as are the steyrs and tangs and the rest is rarely seen . Also bring a gunsmith if you are going to use a tang
The down side to the x5 is cost (around 2-2500 yo yo) but I believe it is the king.
Also for the record review the advice been given carefully as very few of the posters shoot production even though the advice is well intentioned .and bear in mind that the cz75 /spo1 that angus is shooting is not the sp01 you will take out of a box , production gun or not .

Yours in production shooting

zed

Did you finish 3rd behind a shooter using a 15rd Glock at Hilltop? Always remember it's the shooter's ability and not necessarily the firearm they are using.

packas

Gerri wrote:

Did you finish 3rd behind a shooter using a 15rd Glock at Hilltop? Always remember it's the shooter's ability and not necessarily the firearm they are using.

That's why Glock & CZ love it when Adam Tyc, Angus Hobdell & Dave Segivny shoot their guns. Some buy them thinking that they're the business when all it really comes down to is proper technique and quality training. Give a good IPSC shooter any gun & he'll do well. Once the gun is reliable and reasonably accurate that's all you need. You don't need 2" groups at 25m to win IPSC matches. Better off spending your money on ammo and quality practice. But I must admit I do sometimes fall foul of the shiny gun syndrome:D .Buy the expensive accurised gun if you want but don't expect it to make you win. That's down to you !!

fishdog

But I must admit I do sometimes fall foul of the shiny gun syndrome

No sh!t Pat really?? You ???Never !:D

packas

fishdog wrote:

No sh!t Pat really?? You ???Never !:D

Bling bling baby. Hey, I ain't a world class shooter but with my pimped 40 cal & my cool D shoot pants at least I'll look the part.

With your new purchase I do beleive you've fallen foul of the dreaded shiny gun syndrome too. Will you be posing with it at the Kells match on 20th Oct?

oldzed

well the pimp my slide crew are back in form.
1 .macnas and cantona may have shot the euros , but they didnt shoot a single production qualifier and I cant remember them shooting any production matches this year , however I have seen macnas shoot production before
2 we were talking guns not shooters, but like everything else posted on boards it drifts instantly
3 nearly bought an lda but then the sig came out , still think the sig is a better gun
4 gerri , the post was on guns not ability,i never mentioned a result in any competition, I never said glocks could not shoot ,they can but i still dont like them . finishing 0.9% behind dvs does not send me to bed crying , he is a good shot and getting better the whole time , he has beaten me in the past and will again in the future and I hope I will beat him again too . getting beat spurs you on to improve,will i run out and buy a glock- no

now thats me done , to the original question cz or glock , I vote cz , ( but if the capacity drops to 15 then the smith and wessons can come back and the sig 226 express is a runner again and the fnh and the new armalites are in the running and the xda and m and p .............................

buy something and get started , look long and hard at everything out there then go for what you want based on the competitions you are going to shoot ,your budget and the size of your hand . then stick with it .

these views are zeds only , they are not binding or will not guarantee you ever win anything , you may lose your home if you dont pay for it , new guns will be made , zed still wont like plastic ones .and more shooters will turn away from bling and shoot production because the shootings cheaper and the guns work..........:D

out

macnas

Chopper, stick to shootin your Para in standard, it's a far less controversial division than production.:D:D:D:D


also Many Thanks to the Hilltop lads for a very enjoyable shoot, I'm still having nightmares about drop-turners and bobbers.

packas

oldzed wrote: »

buy something and get started , look long and hard at everything out there then go for what you want based on the competitions you are going to shoot ,your budget and the size of your hand . then stick with it .

Very good point. If any new shooter takes anything from this post. This point should be it !!!

oldzed wrote: »

.....more shooters will turn away from bling and shoot production because the shootings cheaper and the guns work..........:D

Don't agree with this point however. There's plenty of bling in Production. Your gun for example is not cheap. It's definately "bling." It's as expensive as the most common gun in Standard Division (STI Edge). Neither are some of the sphinx pistols. But the beauty of production is you can go bling or not. It's your choice. The ammo for production is definately cheaper also. It's unfortunate but production division has become a battle ground for gun maunfactureres. Hopefully that will change & the focus will shift back to what production was designed for.

As Macnas says Standard Division is far less controversial. The focus in standard is all on the shooters & shooting & not the guns. The reason for this is that there's no restrictions on guns once the basic rules are met. Due to that all standard shooters guns are basically the same.

oldzed

Well macnas , I could not have written a script like this .
on examination of the stage results I have found that squad 4s results for stage 11 ( the long run ) were not entered, so 5 of us still have to have a stage entered , if I take off your stage 11 and dvs stage 11 it looks something like this

zed 749.8 match points. 137 A, 28 c, 4 d , 7 m 100%
macnas 675 match points 97 A. 54 C, 19 d , 6m , 3p 90%
dvs 640 match points 93 A , 54 C, 19d , 9m 85%

so by my reckoning I need around 86 match points out of stage 11 to win outright, you took 160 match points out of 11 with 136pts in 28.48 and dvs took 107 pts out with 112 in 32.03.
from what i remember , I shot that stage very well and only dropped 3 or 4 to c's but my time was not great . so on a guess id say i had a score of around 168 in around 40 seconds giving me a hit factor of around 4.8 and match points of between 120 and 150 so I reckon I took the match by somewhere between 34 and 54 points to spare ,
so take my medal off from around your neck and put it back in the box , I reckon you will have to make do with silver bling this time .
And gerry to answer your question , no I didnt . and always remember an average shooter with a very good gun will probably beat an average shooter with an average gun:rolleyes:

macnas

Zed, I am wondering why you have directed your last post at me, I have reviewed my previous posts on this thread to see where I might have cast doubt on the fact that you were Top Dog, King of the Hill or King of production or whatever.
I do not know whether it is me, the second placed competitor or the match organisers that you are trying to embarrass but the onus is on the shooter to verify his scores during the course of the match, you should know this, you are a level 3 competitor. If a problem had been discovered on the day, that your squad had not shot the stage or your score sheets had been lost, you would have gotten the chance to shoot or reshoot the stage. You certainly would not have been allowed to enter your own scores from memory.
But if it's the medal you want, that's no problem and I will look forward to giving it to you personally at the next match. The day at Hilltop is what I'll hang on to, great stages, great weather and great burgers.:D

Chopper, buy a Glock and be happy!

Gerri

oldzed wrote: »

Well macnas , I could not have written a script like this .
on examination of the stage results I have found that squad 4s results for stage 11 ( the long run ) were not entered, so 5 of us still have to have a stage entered , if I take off your stage 11 and dvs stage 11 it looks something like this

zed 749.8 match points. 137 A, 28 c, 4 d , 7 m 100%
macnas 675 match points 97 A. 54 C, 19 d , 6m , 3p 90%
dvs 640 match points 93 A , 54 C, 19d , 9m 85%

so by my reckoning I need around 86 match points out of stage 11 to win outright, you took 160 match points out of 11 with 136pts in 28.48 and dvs took 107 pts out with 112 in 32.03.
from what i remember , I shot that stage very well and only dropped 3 or 4 to c's but my time was not great . so on a guess id say i had a score of around 168 in around 40 seconds giving me a hit factor of around 4.8 and match points of between 120 and 150 so I reckon I took the match by somewhere between 34 and 54 points to spare ,
so take my medal off from around your neck and put it back in the box , I reckon you will have to make do with silver bling this time .
And gerry to answer your question , no I didnt . and always remember an average shooter with a very good gun will probably beat an average shooter with an average gun:rolleyes:

The match results say you finished 3rd behind a 15 round Glock so I am right. The results are the results and as Macnas said , you should have pointed out the error on the day. You did not, tough, the posted results stand. Seems like you are unable to accept defeat graciously, why not offer congratulations to the two lads who finished ahead of you? You are the only one whinging about the results but that's not new for you ,is it? Try to enjoy, it's a great sport.

V Bull

"the onus is on the shooter to verify his scores during the course of the match, you should know this, you are a level 3 competitor. If a problem had been discovered on the day, that your squad had not shot the stage or your score sheets had been lost, you would have gotten the chance to shoot or reshoot the stage. You certainly would not have been allowed to enter your own scores from memory." A QUOTE by Macnas.


Quite right Macnas, it is up to the shooter to confirm and verify ALL their scores and stages, that is also why there is a cooling off period of one hour to allow for objections, ommissions etc.

Hard luck Oldzed, but the scores should by right stand as they are.

P.S. I beleive that you have an X-5, fine tuned by MERKEL..........very pricie........ I prefer a good old Glock 17 myself.........they work a treat.:)

HongKongPhooey

P.S. I beleive that you have an X-5, fine tuned by MERKEL..........very pricie........ I prefer a good old Glock 17 myself.........they work a treat.:)[/QUOTE]


An X-5 tuned by Merkel, well well well, but I thought you weren't allowed to do this in Production division..... Surely a level 3 competitor and RO knows this?

MortgageMan

Guys what did the Sig X5 ever do to upset so many shooters ?

I know that shooters using them are starting to place in comps, could it be fear that the old reliable Glock won't be able to cope with the competition from now on.

Long live the X5.

Gerri

Oldzed
Can you confirm if your x-5 is tuned by Merkel as that is a serious allegation being made by V Bull?

alan123

I must get a pistol, it seems like such good sport. The comradery is admirable. And Oldzed, if you got merkel to tune your x5 shame on you! you know your groupings will be 1" when the trajectory is altered by the 1700fps muzzle velocity.

(am I in with the pistol guys now??)

alan123

And the next time you are talking to merkel, tell him I cant get UTV on my Sky Digital, he might be able to tune it.

bunny shooter

alan123 wrote: »

I must get a pistol, it seems like such good sport. The comradery is admirable. And Oldzed, if you got merkel to tune your x5 shame on you! you know your groupings will be 1" when the trajectory is altered by the 1700fps muzzle velocity.

(am I in with the pistol guys now??)

TBH that's what happenz when you start target shooting and take it too seriously

alan123

When do you say "Im calling you out Oldzed, meet me at the clock tower, noon."

Isnt that how pistol guys settle scores? I saw it in a documentary staring Clint Eastwood.