Dart fine - any tips for appealing?

Sidane

Had a great start to my Monday morning - got a 50 euro fine at Tara street as I didn't have a ticket.

There was a big queue at Raheny out the door, down the street, something I haven't seen since I started getting that train over a month ago. Turns out one of the ticket machines was broken, holding everybody up. The train arrived so I went through the gate and got on, figuring I could pay at the other end as I've done many times in the past.

I walk straight up to the staff in Tara street and say I didn't have a chance to get a ticket, can I pay for it now. He sends me to another guy who proceeds to take my name and address and informs me I can expect a 50 euro fine in the post, and a court summons if I don't pay it.

I told him what happened but he wouldn't have it. I was well pissed off but kept my cool. I'm definitely going to appeal it though.

If I had been trying to dodge the fair and been caught, then fair enough. But I was completely honest about it, I told them the situation, so what's the harm in paying for a return ticket at Tara? Same difference right?

Can I appeal on the basis of neglegence from Irish Rail for not maintaining their ticketing system during the busiest rush hour of the week?

I pay my fare every day, for a service that has had several major problems this summer (complete shutdown of the system during rush hour a couple of times), and then have to swallow a 50 euro fine from them!

Not more than a couple of months ago I was stuck on a train between Tara st and Connolly for nearly two hours because the train I was on broke the overhead cable. They had to bring another train alongside us and transfer us all across - then they dumped us at Connolly and told everyone to get out and walk.

I should have taken Irish Rail to court over lost profit (I'm self employed)

Sorry if I sound like a raving lunatic, but I'm fairly pissed off.

Anyone ever appealed a Dart fine?

One Cold Hand

They're obviously short of a few quid to buy a new machine so they're fining everyone they can!

Just tell them to p!ss off, if it wasn't for your honest you wouldn't have been caught. I'd say you'll get away with it.

whiskeyman

i remember a case a couple of years back like yourself. Guy got fined for no ticket, but he explained the ticket machine was broken, and no one at ticket desk. He boarded Dart as he'd an important meeting in town he couldn't miss. He was fined, but appealled / took CIE to court and he won his case.
Don't know specifics, but definately something similiar.

Cheeky_gal

Do what I do....first off... ya should have whipped out ur wallet with all the other tickets (I don't throw away my tickets for this very reason), then if that doesn't sit well with them...plain and simple, tell them to go fcuk themselves and walk casually out of the station...

MooseJam

why did you give them your name and address, mistake number two

Sidane

They've got a big red book where they check the details you give them - seriously, they had it ready and waiting.

Not a great system but I saw somebody get caught before giving a fake name and address and he was snared. Although not sure how exactly they could force the real one out of you!

Ironically my address wasn't in it.

Would be interesting to see what they'd do if you just flicked the 2 euro at them and walked off. I imagine they'd do their best to stop you, but if they lay hands they're fuct. You could go down like Drogba and they'd cack themselves.

Being honest and trusting in the decency of men was my only mistake today.

_blank_

Sidane wrote:

They've got a big red book where they check the details you give them - seriously, they had it ready and waiting.

Not a great system but I saw somebody get caught before giving a fake name and address and he was snared.

Surely everyone knows the name and address of at least one of their neighbours.

So, just say your neighbours in number forty are the McGowans, tell them you are John/Jean McGowan of number 40 yourstreet. They can look it up, and see that a family of McGowans do indeed reside at number forty.

It is critical that you do not produce ID with a different name on it though, better off to say that you have no ID on you.

That big red book can be seriously out of date too, and not have all the new apartment blocks in it.

Just a tip.

Sidane

Yeah but as I said, I thought honesty would be the best course. Don't try to pull the wool over their eyes and maybe they'll act like decent human beings.

I guess having their jobs replaced by machines has made them bitter and vengeful! From what I can see all they do all day is sit on their stools and eye up the birds (where do I apply?).

I asked them when the book dates back to and they said 2006 - yet an apartment complex 10 years wasn't in it. Get a new book lads...

L1011

Should have told them you got on at Broomebridge (sure its on the Maynooth line but it goes to Tara too...); theres not only no ticket machines there, theres no station. It is but some burnt platforms in an open wasteland....

Out of interest, what is this magical all-knowing name and address list they have? I have NEVER been on the public voting register; only the "hands off you slimeball advertisers" one; there is no legal way Irish Rail could have my name and address in some book.

Terry

http://www.irishrail.ie/contact_us/contact_dart_feedback.asp

_blank_

MYOB wrote:

there is no legal way Irish Rail could have my name and address in some book.

ORLY?

Thoms Directory.

This is in book form in most businesses.

http://www.thoms.ie/content/index.asp

Sidane

Thanks Terry. But if/when the fine comes through in the post there are numbers you can call to appeal.

So hopefully a good verbal bashing will get me off the hook...

Terry

Sidane wrote:

Thanks Terry. But if/when the fine comes through in the post there are numbers you can call to appeal.

So hopefully a good verbal bashing will get me off the hook...

There's a number at the bottom of the page.

iguana

Not much use to you now but whenever I need to buy a ticket at a broken machine I take a photo on my phone to prove the machine was broken. Shuts them up everytime.

super_furry

Just say it wasn't you. Someone else gave your name and address.

L1011

DesF wrote:

ORLY?

Thoms Directory.

This is in book form in most businesses.

http://www.thoms.ie/content/index.asp

Anywhere that Thoms got my name and address from broke the law - or they broke it. I've an unlisted landline, unlisted mobile, private voting registration, have never ticked the "please, give my name to random companies" boxes on forms; etc. I'm not paying €36.30 to get access to their site to see if I'm listed on it, however their paper version doesn't cover Kildare according to their description and this appears to be the "big red book".

Lump

whiskeyman wrote:

i remember a case a couple of years back like yourself. Guy got fined for no ticket, but he explained the ticket machine was broken, and no one at ticket desk. He boarded Dart as he'd an important meeting in town he couldn't miss. He was fined, but appealled / took CIE to court and he won his case.
Don't know specifics, but definately something similiar.

Hardly the same..... the OP just couldn't be bothered Queuing.

KilbarrackBlows

The que's at raheny station are pritty dam long some times
you would often miss your dart because of it. :eek:

Lump

Leave the house earlier? Buy a season ticket? Buy Online?

Victor

Sidane wrote:

I pay my fare every day

That odd, why don't you have a monthly ticket or something?

Rob_l

Surely the cost of appealing the ticket fine in solicitor fees lost earning due to court appearances and such would be greater than fifty euro's

oh and I dont see how appealing should work there was a ticket machine you just did not feel like queueing and does it not state you need a valid ticket before beginign your journey.

and lastly as has been said shouldn't have given them your name and address possibly pretended to be polish

Xavi6

I had a friend who got done the same because of out of order machines at Raheny. He wrote a letter stating that he wasn't paying the fine as it wasn't his fault that they weren't working. Iarnrod Eireann didn't want any hassle so they immediately quashed the fine. Problem solved and all for the price of a stamp.

Terry

That reminds me. I have to post a letter.

OP, you were caught. Unlucky.

azezil

I don't believe you've a leg to stand on, the fact that there was at least one working ticket machine means you could and should have waited and gotten a ticket, other people were willing to wait, you should have to! If everyone decided, screw this I'll just pay when I get off there'd be a huge queue at Tara, imo the fine is justified.

John Mason

Sidane wrote:

I asked them when the book dates back to and they said 2006 - yet an apartment complex 10 years wasn't in it. Get a new book lads...

the big red book is called thoms directory and it is seriously flawed, a lot of mistakes.

you should write to the Dart complaints people or get in touch with your local citzens advice

Spud83

I would do nothing, until you actually get the ticket. I wouldn't be surprised if you never heard about it again.

Overheal

iguana wrote:

Not much use to you now but whenever I need to buy a ticket at a broken machine I take a photo on my phone to prove the machine was broken. Shuts them up everytime.

Brilliant and true. Anytime you can hold evidence to douchebags like that it always gets the squawking.I got run over on my bike many a years ago when an idiot pulled into a petrol station and didnt bother but to be an ass. I was only 14 and in shock and he wasnt going to do **** about it until I pulled out my bookbag and copied his plate number :DIf you had a picture of the broken machine and the queue there wouldnt have been any issue

yomchi

Just tell them to p!ss off

Best advice here. Irish Rail are a massively wealthy organisation thanks to people like you who pay for their tickets.

digitally-yours

Victor wrote:

That odd, why don't you have a monthly ticket or something?

I know a girl who travels on dart in the morning but in the evening she gets the bus for some reason.

Once i asked she said she finds the bus drivers "cute" and feel welcomed in the bus.

She is from Poland.

back to the point i think it makes sense if someone does not buys the monthly or weekly tickets.

L1011

Victor wrote:

That odd, why don't you have a monthly ticket or something?

Theres a few arguable excuses (need to get them in a manned station, need to get a dublin bus ID card which needs you to go to their offices) but in general I can't see why anyone travelling the same route every day wouldn't...

I do some mad Luas commutes (nearly entire lenght of line one way, three stops the other in the evenings) but even for that the smartcard = no problems with f**ked machines.

MOH

While IE are a complete shower of incompetent gombeens, I don't think you'll have much luck with an appeal this time. If the ticket office was unmanned and the machine was out of order it might be a different story.

The worst bit is they used to sometimes let people pay at Tara, but now you walk up honestly, ask them where you can pay for your ticket, and their response is "Oh goody I can fine you". It's daft.

Still, you might get some advice from Platform11

Savman

I've never heard of a Big Red Book or any Thoms directory, but if that was me I'd be asking questions of how my personal information ended up in some database that's accessible by anybody.
I wonder what the Data Protection rules are about this too...

iguana

azezil wrote:

I don't believe you've a leg to stand on, the fact that there was at least one working ticket machine means you could and should have waited and gotten a ticket, other people were willing to wait, you should have to! If everyone decided, screw this I'll just pay when I get off there'd be a huge queue at Tara, imo the fine is justified.

No, if everyone decided to just pay when they get there the ticket machines would be kept in better repair. Instead people just make themselves late instead of taking action against a shoddy service that they pay for with their taxes.

_blank_

Savman wrote:

I've never heard of a Big Red Book or any Thoms directory, but if that was me I'd be asking questions of how my personal information ended up in some database that's accessible by anybody.
I wonder what the Data Protection rules are about this too...

http://www.thoms.ie/content/about.asp

"Thom's Irish Almanac and Official Directory" -to give it the original title- was first published in 1844

I reckon if there were any issues with Data Protection or whatnot, then it may have been picked up on in over a hundred and sixty years of publication.

This book exists, and I have used it on occasion.

Just in case people are unsure as to what it contains.

I can't look up particular people, like in the phone book.

It's not listed like this

F, Des : 1 Main Street, Sometown, Dublin 8, Ireland.

But like this :

1 Main Street, Sometown : F
2 Main Street, Sometown : Smith
3 Main Street, Sometown : Byrne
4 Main Street, Sometown : Kelly

etc etc.

It's quite hard to actually look up someone's address in it.

But, you can look up addresses and find out the family name of the homeowner at the time of printing.

You Suck!

Rolled up herald am + infrared sensor + person in front + no honesty = No fine.

Fo Gigure

Savman

DesF wrote:

I can't look up particular people, like in the phone book.

It's not listed like this

F, Des : 1 Main Street, Sometown, Dublin 8, Ireland.

But like this :

1 Main Street, Sometown : F
2 Main Street, Sometown : Smith
3 Main Street, Sometown : Byrne
4 Main Street, Sometown : Kelly

etc etc.

It's quite hard to actually look up someone's address in it.

But, you can look up addresses and find out the family name of the homeowner at the time of printing.

That's still misuse of personal information. I certainly didnt give consent to my details being printed in some book that can be bought and sold by anyone. I'd be interested to know where they source their info, from whose records - government/tax?
I'm also ex-directory with Eircom so not in the Phonebook either.

That said, if the details you give to some CIE Inspector dont coincide with the Big Red Book, that's hardly rock solid proof of lying.

Anyway, there's not a chance in hell I'd give any information to any public transport worker, ever. Some asshole Litter Warden tried this before and I let him call the Guards (!) who when eventually showed up just drove right past.

Back on topic, I'd fight this all the way, just to cause them as much hassle as possible.

limklad

whiskeyman wrote:

i remember a case a couple of years back like yourself. Guy got fined for no ticket, but he explained the ticket machine was broken, and no one at ticket desk. He boarded Dart as he'd an important meeting in town he couldn't miss. He was fined, but appealled / took CIE to court and he won his case.
Don't know specifics, but definately something similiar.

OP, You to get proof that the machine was broken and there was no teller at the desk, Get witness for the Day in question!!

LeixlipRed

handed the wrong train ticket to IR guy at Drumcondra. He shouted after me, " wrong ticket mate, that'll be two euro". Odd that. I had a valid ticket on me but if I hadn't I was obviously fare dodging yet he didn't even think to fine me

Victor

limklad wrote:

OP, You to get proof that the machine was broken and there was no teller at the desk, Get witness for the Day in question!!

CCTV camera. Log of tickets issued at the time.

7 years for perjury.

humanji

OP, why bother being worried. Flee to Mexico and live like a king on the €50 you get to keep!

phasers

you're supposed to give a fake name when that happens.... I mean you should have waited for your ticket

Red Alert

Technically you must have a ticket before getting on if you have had the opportunity to buy one at your originating station. Even though there was queue you did have the opportunity to buy one and therefore you deserve the fine. Why should everyone else obey the rules for your benefit?

limklad

Victor wrote:

CCTV camera. Log of tickets issued at the time.

7 years for perjury.

Sounds like you are a witness for IR or even work for them.

Toots

Savman wrote:

That's still misuse of personal information. I certainly didnt give consent to my details being printed in some book that can be bought and sold by anyone. I'd be interested to know where they source their info, from whose records - government/tax?
I'm also ex-directory with Eircom so not in the Phonebook either.

I think it's something to do with the Register of Electors. I work in a bank and we used to use the Thoms for address verification. (although that was with the consent of the customers and we weren't trying to take any money from them! lol) As far as I know it's available due to the freedom of information act. Apparently u can request a copy of the register of electors if you want??? I think once someone in your household registers to vote, ur address is in this book.

An Citeog

Toots85 wrote:

I think it's something to do with the Register of Electors. I work in a bank and we used to use the Thoms for address verification. (although that was with the consent of the customers and we weren't trying to take any money from them! lol) As far as I know it's available due to the freedom of information act. Apparently u can request a copy of the register of electors if you want??? I think once someone in your household registers to vote, ur address is in this book.

You can look at it online aswell, well for Dublin City residents anyway.

http://www.dublincity.ie/living_in_the_city/voting/

You need to input all the details though rather than searching by street or name.

L1011

Toots85 wrote:

I think it's something to do with the Register of Electors. I work in a bank and we used to use the Thoms for address verification. (although that was with the consent of the customers and we weren't trying to take any money from them! lol) As far as I know it's available due to the freedom of information act. Apparently u can request a copy of the register of electors if you want??? I think once someone in your household registers to vote, ur address is in this book.

Thoms can only get the "edited register" which includes people who forgot to check a box.

An Citeog - illegal to use that for commercial purposes though. It does cover the entire country though, www.checktheregister.ie is the site for eveyr county

Savman

MYOB wrote:

Thoms can only get the "edited register" which includes people who forgot to check a box.

An Citeog - illegal to use that for commercial purposes though. It does cover the entire country though, www.checktheregister.ie is the site for eveyr county

See this is my point, I checked that register before and I wasn't on it, and I'm still not. Does this mean that I'm lying if I give my name & address to some CIE Inspector just because I'm not listed in his big red book?
It's such an unreliable system, in fact I'd say its so full of holes it's more designed as a scare tactic than anything else.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm not on the electoral register. Down with democracy

lostexpectation

is this thread still going, I think th guy should take the fine but can he go to court to ptut on record the business' of the station?

tolosenc

No way that I'd pay a fine to a company which provides the WORST public transport of any European capital city (most expensive, most infrequent...) for what was an honest mistake.

JohnnyStones

I don't think that you've much got choice, just pay the fine and get on with your life.:cool: :cool:

Venom

obl wrote:

No way that I'd pay a fine to a company which provides the WORST public transport of any European capital city (most expensive, most infrequent...) for what was an honest mistake.

It wasnt a mistake tho as he chose not to by a ticket due to not wanting to que up.