Gear & Common sense

Hivemind187

In the interest of rescuing the other thread from collapsing into an argument I am starting this one for people to debate (without resorting to petty name calling) the rights and wrongs of Team Names, themes, kit, insignia etc.

For the record, I am dong this as a civvie not the VC of the IAA, the IAA's policy has and will be stated again and again.

My personal policy is that context is everything. Go to a WW2 event as an axis soldier? Fine. Turn up at HRTA dressed as an SS Kommando with the skull&bones and a couple of lightening bolts - dont blame me if you get a punch in the gob.

ambro25

Hivemind187 wrote:

Turn up at HRTA dressed as an SS Kommando with the skull&bones and a couple of lightening bolts - dont blame me if you get a punch in the gob.

Seconded. For personal reasons.

Hivemind187

ambro25 wrote:

Seconded. For personal reasons.

You're French arent you?

Boston

I remember making a comment once that someone was so stupid the nazi would be along sortly to load him onto a train. Everyone laughed long and hard at that one, except one girl who I later discovered has polish relatives.

Its easy to say you're being PC until some polish person arrives out at hrta.

CrazyRabbit

Hivemind187 wrote:

Turn up at HRTA dressed as an SS Kommando with the skull&bones and a couple of lightening bolts - dont blame me if you get a punch in the gob.

QFE

Hivemind187

Boston wrote:

I remember making a comment once that someone was so stupid the nazi would be along sortly to load him onto a train. Everyone laughed long and hard at that one, except one girl who I later discovered has polish relatives.

Its easy to say you're being PC until some polish person arrives out at hrta.

Exactly, good point.

You have the right to say what you want, when you want (at least in a progressive country) but that doesnt mean you should. While no one should have the right to censor you, you should try to be considerate of the feelings of others. its called tact.

Hivemind187

CrazyRabbit wrote:

QFE

Forgive my ignorance of tla's but QFE?

ambro25

Hivemind187 wrote:

You're French arent you?

And so? (genuine query, not really understood your point)

Boston

Yep you can do what you want in relation to gear, but if you feel to need to upset people who are going for a fun day out you really need to reevaluate your world view.

Hivemind187

ambro25 wrote:

And?

Well, it would be like wandering up an Irish man in a Black & Tans unifrom wouldnt it?

In other words, "that explains it".

Boston

ambro25 wrote:

And?

I think he's implying that being French in and of itself is more then enough of a reason to feel that nazi symbolism is not appropriate.

gandalf

Hmm so me turning up in full Waffen SS Heer gear might cause an issue then

ambro25

Ah - yeah, thx Hiveman. Amongst other things 'closer to home'.

Gandalf, I can appreciate someone taking a liking to SS uniform cuts, patterns, colours and whatnot - from a fashion POV, if you want.

What I cannot *for the life of me* understand, is any further interest in, say, military-specific paraphernalia (helmets, insignias etc.) or, God forbid, in what the SS stood for.

CrazyRabbit

Hivemind187 wrote:

Forgive my ignorance of tla's but QFE?

Oh, sorry.

QFE = Quoted For Emphasis

Spetzcong

What about a team styling themselves on the UDA or Red-hand commando, or RIRA? Complete with balaclavas and the likes? Personally I'd find all of that personally offensive and would think whoever thought it was a good idea to sport such gear a complete fool.

I guess it's just a case of thinking about how people who might be offended by your kit will think of you. I mean I wouldn't be so offended by that sort of kit that I'd complain about it or anything, but I'd think whoever wore it was a total sap.

Boston

I wouldn't play the game or play on any site that allowed people to dress as Irish paramilitary groups. In fact given pass experience I'd be exceeding aggressive about it and call the Gardi. The RIRA and the PIRA and the Unionist groups are still illegal.

Hivemind187

Spetzcong wrote:

What about a team styling themselves on the UDA or Red-hand commando, or RIRA? Complete with balaclavas and the likes? Personally I'd find all of that personally offensive and would think whoever thought it was a good idea to sport such gear a complete fool.

I guess it's just a case of thinking about how people who might be offended by your kit will think of you. I mean I wouldn't be so offended by that sort of kit that I'd complain about it or anything, but I'd think whoever wore it was a total sap.

Agreed, if you wore that kit do not be suprised if you get arrested and/or sink Airsoft for everyone ... at which point you would be better off in custody, at least they could protect you from the hoardes of knobbly kneed ex-Airsofters baying for blood.

Its about context. Everything has its context. While that is not an excuse for censorship it is a bloody good reason for empathy and common sense.

|I.R|PaddyPower

NOt sure you will like this but i still want to get a Mauser k98kar rifle Aeg if they ever make one that is. So if i go out and get the Mp40 or stg44 then get a springer you would have a problem with not my apperance but my choice of Aeg. Would Vietnamese people take offence to my M14 or a M16 aeg now i understand clothing is not the same as a Aeg but sometimes political correctness can get out of hand with people just wanting to have fun.That said I still think the Natzies were evil bastards with small dicks who got fun from playing with sheep.

Fiach Dubh

You can take that further by saying any uniform can offend. Russian loadouts may offend people who don't like communism, most people couldn't tell the difference between a Soviet or Russian Federation loadout. U.S. soldier loadouts will offend others, British, French, German, the list goes on and on.

Since the UDA, RIRA, etc. are paramilitary groups I don't see how you could put together a uniform, Balaclava's are worn by many Special Forces the world over so that's not an indication. Of course if you had a patch or something stating the name of one of these groups that'd be a different matter. I don't see it happening though.

Boston

Fiach Dubh wrote:

You can take that further by saying any uniform can offend. Russian loadouts may offend people who don't like communism, most people couldn't tell the difference between a Soviet or Russian Federation loadout. U.S. soldier loadouts will offend others, British, French, German, the list goes on and on.

Neo Nazi groups incorporating nazi symbols into clothing. Being associated with the neo nazi image would be bad for the sport. Its akin to lashing on a celtic jersey, wipping out a can of dutch gold and shouting abuse at foreigners, except worse.

Since the UDA, RIRA, etc. are paramilitary groups I don't see how you could put together a uniform, Balaclava's are worn by many Special Forces the world over so that's not an indication. Of course if you had a patch or something stating the name of one of these groups that'd be a different matter. I don't see it happening though.

I can see some muppet with one of these IRA t-shirts poping up.

Hivemind187

|I.R|PaddyPower wrote:

NOt sure you will like this but i still want to get a Mauser k98kar rifle Aeg if they ever make one that is. So if i go out and get the Mp40 or stg44 then get a springer you would have a problem with not my apperance but my choice of Aeg. Would Vietnamese people take offence to my M14 or a M16 aeg now i understand clothing is not the same as a Aeg but sometimes political correctness can get out of hand with people just wanting to have fun.That said I still think the Natzies were evil bastards with small dicks who got fun from playing with sheep.

Its a lot less likely that the rifle designs will upset people. Uniforms are a symbol of which side you are on, a rifle is simply a tool.

Symbols mean the most to people (hence the existance of insignia) as such running arround with a German WW2 Airsoft isnt so bad since these would have been adopted as surplus by everyone. Wearing the Lightning bolts, or wandering up to a Vietnamese person and asking "Hows your My Lai hanging" or a t-shirt with the faces of the My Lai offenders will certainly offend.

Try to put yourself in the position of the person you dont wish to offend. If you are irish are you that bothered by the SA-80? How about the FN203 SLR? How about a Lee Enfield? What if someone with a thick London accent approached you wearing a Black & Tan uniform?

Hivemind187

At the end of the day lads, we have French players, Polsih players and considering the numbers we more than likely have gay, Jewish etc players. Something are going to be more offensive than others and the SS insignia and uniform is going to be one of the more offensive things.

|I.R|PaddyPower

Hivemind187 wrote:

If you are irish are you that bothered by the SA-80?

Nope its a pice of crap.I would be insulted if someone attacked we with one.

He would have better luck with a packet of inflated smarties.

ambro25

|I.R|PaddyPower wrote:

NOt sure you will like this but i still want to get a Mauser k98kar rifle Aeg if they ever make one that is. So if i go out and get the Mp40 or stg44 then get a springer you would have a problem with not my apperance but my choice of Aeg. Would Vietnamese people take offence to my M14 or a M16 aeg now i understand clothing is not the same as a Aeg but sometimes political correctness can get out of hand with people just wanting to have fun.That said I still think the Natzies were evil bastards with small dicks who got fun from playing with sheep.

I think the airsoft replicas can safely be excluded from the context of this debate/thread.

I own a WW2 German Kar98k. I don't associate the rifle with the men who held it or what they stood for - it's just a rifle. The same can't be said of the uniform.

There's a difference between the man's uniform and his tools: the uniform embodies and portrays the ideology/goals/aims/etc., the tools just implement it *and not of themselves*, so to my mind the uniform is that much more symbolising than the weapon (in replica form or otherwise).

EDIT- High 5 to Hive, didn't see your post earlier. Great minds think alike and whatnot

gandalf

Actually the Airsoft version of the SA80 is supposed to be very good.

gandalf

Actually a Black and Tan loadout is one of the ones I would consider in the future if I could get my hands on an Airsoft Lewis Gun. You could then have lads in a Cap and tweed suit and you could have a War of Independence Milsim.

|I.R|PaddyPower

*eyes glase over looks like a 5 year old and asks in small annoying voice*

Where o where in gods good name did you get a mauser K98 rifle, do u still want it, will you sell it,, where can i get one, how much do they cost,can you post a pick of it, is it under the 1j rule,gimmie gimmie gimmie waaaaaaaa.

*throws himself on floor shakeing in a spoiled fit*

gandalf

+1 to Paddypowers whingy query

padmundo

Marushin or Tanaka make a bolt action Kar98.... AFAIK

:EDIT: Yep Marushin do
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/ProductDetail?prodID=22967

Fiach Dubh

There's a clone KAR98 coming out soon. Gas powered form the looks, must be a Maruzen clone.

IRISH RAIL

I will be wearing my full ISRAELI uniform ( one of 3 different types I own.
am I going to offend anyone?
The ss thing doesnt bother me at all in fact I bet I could hit the eagle from 500 yards:D

Oberleutnant

Simple all uniforms might well offend someone, should we all just wear plain green or brown camo? No, its up the the individual tastes of each person and common sense.

if someone was to start talking politics regarding Nazi/American/British etc armed conflicts while airsofting then i would take issue,
but if i went for a WWII Wermacht loadout i would wear it playin and would hope to play away with out hassle. i would hate to offend anyone while doing so but so be it.

do i offend anyone with the Vietnam gear, i might very well do but

American might offend arab or muslim players
Wermacht/SS might offend Jewish/polish/Russian players
British might offend Irish/arab/african players
French one might offend arab/african players

there is not much we can do, we walk on a very tight line with any of our choices. Just hope you dont offend someone. thats all you can do.

Spetzcong

There's no arguing that German WWII uniforms are probably one of the most iconic uniforms that exist, I mean they've been in more movies, video games etc than just about any other uniform out there, but you can't argue that Nazi symbolism and ideology are a very touchy subject even today, maybe even more so these days with the fact that Ireland has become so much more multi-cultural.

Personally I'd try to avoid wearing something that might make people think I identified with the Nazies, shared some of their beliefs or in any way thought they were a bunch of people I'd like to be associated with. I'm not going to judge someone too much for having a full Waffen SS load out, but I would be asking myself what that person thought was so great about the nazies that they would choose to dress up as one.

CrazyRabbit

The majority of state-used uniforms won't cause offense. It's the insignia's and paraphernalia that may go with them that might cause offence.

The WII Nazi uniforms are a special case I think. Primary due to the 6 million (or more) innocent men, women and children slaughtered by the nazi's. It's the shear scale of the evil caused by them, that attaches itself to the uniforms etc of the time. If a jewish airsofter turned up for a game and seen someone in a nazi uniform, they might rightfully be offended, especially if they lost relatives to the gas chambers etc.

I think you're ok with most uniforms, but we have to be sensitive to the feelings of some who to this day are still affected by the actions of those that wore certain uniforms.

Alvin T. Grey

It's the black. I'm convinced that it's that simple. Some people think it's cool.

Fallschirmjager

well , er, with my name...maybe i should not say anything on this thread...but by way of clarification...

on the look. i realise emotions run high and before you are asking no i dont have an agenda here on this, (and here it comes!) HOWEVER....

my name is nothing more then a hang over from my long running love affair with day of defeat the half life game sim. personally i would not be bothered by someone wearing a black and tans outfit, actually kinda annoyed i never thought of it tbh, and gandalf the lewis gun is a great idea, never saw an airsoft one but way way cool, but i digress...so wear what you want but if someone starts spouting the beliefs, well then i for one would take grave offense to the point that i would refuse to play with someone who obviously is incredibly fcking thick. same goes for a communist agenda, one of my best friends on the planet is russian, and if you want to know just how incredibly fuked up communism is and how incredibly bereft it is of humanity, i will leave you alone for an hour with him next time he is here to discuss it. trust me however bad it was for satellite countries who were 'asked' to join the USSR, it was no bed of roses for the russian public either.

i suppose it is inevitable that that some muppet will appear at some point..so we do need to be prepared and this is a good discussion to have.

i just see clothes as clothes, however i also didnt have to suffer the consequences of nazi invasion and lets be honest, irish people bang on about a famine in 1800's and are mentally affected by it even to this day (its one of the reasons irish people are obsessed with owning our own house for example) so i can see how emotions would still run high (and rightly so) when people are still alive who experienced its horror. on a positive note, it does show how forgiving a lot of european nations are that we are where we are now. quite amazing when you sit back and think of it.

also ober raised an important point. everyone has a reason to not only hate but despise a particular loadout, but there is a difference i think between wearing and doing and wearing and believing. i just see someone who has committed to looking the part and has shown incredible committment to accuracy. airsoft is all about accuracy and i dont just mean on the field. we all look for the most accurate representation, but that is all it is..a representation not a belief. i would love a FJ water and tan smock, not because i support the FJ division, or believe for what it stood for or am implying support, i just see it as a collectable. i also want a 101st airborne or 82nd airborne ww2 loadout. i want a aliens loadout, what does that say about me? maybe i hate xenomorphs and lets hope they dont turn up to play airsoft, cant really see them 'taking hits'

i am not playing airsoft to offend anyone. in fact i am playing airsoft for exactly the opposite reason! where can i meet people with a same set of interests, who want to run around a field so i can bust my ass laughing at how incredibly crap i am at it. same goes for the thread on not admitting hits..i just cant comprehend that..its just a game for fun. its like i see people for what they are, not what they are wearing. so if gandalf arrived out in a SS loadout, i still see gandalf and his humour. he has not suddenly become Gandalf von nutjob, spouter of nazi insanity. fiach is not joseph stalin, killer of millions, he is just fiach with an incredibly cool loadout, it just happens to be russian.

i would love to play a ww2 sim at hrta, however, at the same time i have no intention of insulting anyone even accidently.

as always the best tool for people who believe this type of ****e, is education and facts. in fact its like shooting fish in a barrel when you meet people who actually believe something as patently ridiculous as national socialism or indeed the communist alternative that had so much in common with it. same applies to pretty much any loadout you care to mention.

so i will go with what we agree here...if there are some things that we dont want to see...i will go with the flow.


on a seperate note -- perhaps i should change my name in case someone gets the wrong idea....anyone know how you can do that??

Shiva

Fallschirmjager wrote:

on a seperate note -- perhaps i should change my name in case someone gets the wrong idea....anyone know how you can do that??

Aww man...you went and ruined it right there at the end
I hope you were being tongue in cheek with that comment.

I agree with every single point you made, right up to that one. We all know you as Falls-shirm-thingy - just because some people won't look beyond your nickname to the real you, and get offended without knowing you, is no reason to change it.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone, but I have absolutely NO intention of changing my nickname if someone of a particular religious persuasion is offended by my use of the name of their Deity.

Your nickname does not equal you - its just a handle.

Fallschirmjager

Shiva wrote:

Aww man...you went and ruined it right there at the end
I hope you were being tongue in cheek with that comment.

I agree with every single point you made, right up to that one. We all know you as Falls-shirm-thingy - just because some people won't look beyond your nickname to the real you, and get offended without knowing you, is no reason to change it.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone, but I have absolutely NO intention of changing my nickname if someone of a particular religious persuasion is offended by my use of the name of their Deity.

Your nickname does not equal you - its just a handle.

exactly..i was more concerned about someone from the press skimming here, picking on my name and saying there are nazis in there....without getting off his lazy ass and reading here...

and it is spelt incorrectly also HAHAHAHA...i have lost count of the number of times people have tried to correct it...as you rightly shiva, its just a handle...it isnt me...

IRISH RAIL

i couldnt have put it better but ill try

I will shoot with anyone anytime arabs cristians buddists you name it.
if they want to wear a jihad outfit or play the hezbollah uniform thats ok with me as long as they can take what I wear aswell.
id love to do a ww2 milsim ive no problems with someone wearing the ss uniform my grandparents might but as we get older we learn its not happening all over again.
Its just a game.

cherubaul

Why is it that we end up talking about this topic when the lads at the northern sites don't seem to care at all. And yet in the neutral state of the republic of Ireland we are contesting the right of the individual to wear a uniform on the basis that it looks cool strikes me as odd. I mean at the end of the day anything you do runs the risk of offending someone to me and this is merely an opinion the wearing of a BDU is as offensive as farting on the bus can be construed as unpleasant but ultimately harmless. That said insignia is advertisement and so i would urge caution on that note but as for cut color etc go for it.

edited: i gave an example that i later deemed inappropriate

hoplite

Fallschirmjager wrote:

on a seperate note -- perhaps i should change my name in case someone gets the wrong idea....anyone know how you can do that??

I'd agree with shiva good post up until the end. There is no call to change your handle, thats a slippery slope.

I speak a bit of german and if I was to translate your handle it would be literally Parachute Hunter. I think this term is still in use for the modern day Bundeswehr (German Armed forces). Anyone who has lived in Germany will know that the Germans are nothing if not sensitive to their past.

Something like Sturmbannfuhrer would be more controversial given that it was an SA and SS rank designation and hence linked directly to the Nazi party and its ideology.

The point being somebody could rush to judgment because of your handle but they might be misinformed. Someone wearing a uniform in the context of airsoft is not necessarily espousing a particular belief unless they demonstrate it by their behaviour. You cant rush to judgment and assume their intent.

+1 for the thread Hivemind its a good topic for discussion.

|I.R|PaddyPower

Fallschirmjager wrote:

my name is nothing more then a hang over from my long running love affair with day of defeat the half life game sim.

Dude come to our server for dod source called Irish Rangers in europe we are normally full from about 5pm till 5am 32 public server.

Fallschirmjager

|I.R|PaddyPower wrote:

Dude come to our server for dod source called Irish Rangers in europe we are normally full from about 5pm till 5am 32 public server.

i will ...its been a while so i might be a bit rusty...airsoft has saturated my time...i will give it a go PP...

IRISH RAIL

so from the Magen David quarter
are we good or what??

Hivemind187

As far as it goes, wearing IDF kit probably wont offend too many people (so long as you dont start mouthing off about Palestinians or building houses where you arent supposed to). If someone does take offense and brings it to your attention then you have two choices, you can either change kit or ignore their request.

More than likely its not going to happen because the IDF kit isnt all that distinctive from and other US based desert kit. Wearing the insignia's of certain divisions or squads might annoy people though.

The difference between this and, say, the SS kit is that the SS kit is so synonimous with the most horrendous things in the past and some pretty awful things in our present. The insignia though are the worst thing because they are the symbols used to terrorize others. So swastika, lightning bolts, skull&bhones, 113 etc etc These are all going to get you into trouble.

If you dont believe me, wear them on a plane to Germany.

ambro25

|I.R|PaddyPower wrote:

*eyes glase over looks like a 5 year old and asks in small annoying voice*

Where o where in gods good name did you get a mauser K98 rifle, do u still want it, will you sell it,, where can i get one, how much do they cost,can you post a pick of it, is it under the 1j rule,gimmie gimmie gimmie waaaaaaaa.

*throws himself on floor shakeing in a spoiled fit*

gandalf wrote:

+1 to Paddypowers whingy query

Erm, chill guys... it's well over 1J (being RS), and I'd only expand on how it came to be in the family over a pint. Suffice to say it has something to do with why I can't abide SS paraphernalia "for personal reasons" :cool:

Agree with Hive re. differentiation between Forum handles (don't sweat it Falls ) and/or "clothes", and actual insignias, per my previous posts. I believe most here are sufficiently level-headed and open-minded to accept that the cut/fabric/pattern of any uniform may appeal and be worn for that reason - the difference is when you push it all the way to wearing the actual SS/Nazi insignias, which to my mind betrays 'affiliation' with such an ideology. There's a time and place to do that: a film or TV show, for authenticity purposes. I can't think of any other valid reason.

ED E

Fallschirmjager wrote:

i will ...its been a while so i might be a bit rusty...airsoft has saturated my time...i will give it a go PP...

No. DODS has just been outdone. TF2 is much more fun, even if a little silly. I strongly advise the orange box ASAP!

Lemming

Lethal_Bullet wrote:

No. DODS has just been outdone. TF2 is much more fun, even if a little silly. I strongly advise the orange box ASAP!

heretic!! DOD:S ftw. TF2 is a different beast. I cut my online gaming teeth with TFC and my very first gaming clan. But comparing TF2 and DOD:s is like comparing FarCry and STALKER

|I.R|PaddyPower

Probably off topic but if you people play dod,s and like ww2 action an independant ww2 campain world wide running on 1 euro server and 1 north american over 12 hours sats and wensdays with real teams and real commanders trying to take controle of europe over 2 months join.

http:<snip>/

Any questions just ask or join our dods server 6 |I.R| players are in this vie so ask anyone with tags they will help you.

Server ip:

Hivemind187

You guys could win an award for the number of times threads go off topic.

o1s1n

|I.R|PaddyPower wrote:

Probably off topic but if you people play dod,s and like ww2 action an independant ww2 campain world wide running on 1 euro server and 1 north american over 12 hours sats and wensdays with real teams and real commanders trying to take controle of europe over 2 months join.

http:<snip>/.

Any questions just ask or join our dods server 6 |I.R| players are in this vie so ask anyone with tags they will help you.

Server ip:

Advertising is against boards.ie rules. If you want to do so, pay like everyone else.