FG councillor on travellers.

The_Minister

I just saw this on politics.ie http://www.enniscorthyecho.ie/news/story.asp?j=27439&cat=news
All I can say is, wow.I never thought any politician would be so honest about his views (even if they are pig-plop).
I hope that Fine Gael take the nomination off him, or at least distance themselves from his remarks.

Dave!

Yeah he was on the radio a few days ago defending himself. I can't see FG taking any action as a result (the story is already finished, suprisingly), because I imagine it's what most of Enniscorthy is thinking.

Dancor

I agree with him, About time someone said something about these leechers, I dont know why his party would ''distance'' themselfs from him, Not as if many travelers vote.

gurramok

Wel, maybe he was trying to prevent another Dunsink, you know where squatters can have staying rights after 12 years and be paid off with millions of taxpayers money to move on.
Maybe he just had a long term view to protect Enniscorthy?

Dave!

dancor wrote:

Not as if many travelers vote.

Good point

purple'n'gold

The_Minister wrote:

I just saw this on politics.ie http://www.enniscorthyecho.ie/news/story.asp?j=27439&cat=news
All I can say is, wow.I never thought any politician would be so honest about his views (even if they are pig-plop).
I hope that Fine Gael take the nomination off him, or at least distance themselves from his remarks.

Paddy Kavanagh is saying out loud what the VAST majority of people in Co Wexford are thinking. And there is absolutely NO chance of Fine Gael taking any action against him, except maybe (at a local Fine Gael level) to warmly congratulate him.

lostexpectation

ah the old accuse other of what your actually advocating trick

The encroachment of caravans in Salville Road and areas of Drumgoold was tantamount to “ethnic cleansing” by forcing people to move away from the area, he added.

accusing them of rape and pillaging etc is just slightly OTT at a council meeting... a reprimand is in order.

Dave!

It's certainly colourful language...

marcsignal

dancor wrote:

I agree with him, About time someone said something about these leechers, I dont know why his party would ''distance'' themselfs from him, Not as if many travelers vote.

im with you dancor, I know it's wrong to tar ALL travellers with the same brush, and that there are also people in the settled community who pay no taxes (some of them stinking rich as it happens) but society dosen't owe travellers any special consessions, they choose to live the way they do, and more often than not they give the two fingers to same society that always seems to bend over backwards so as not to offend them.
I can completely understand why the people of enniscorthy wouldn't want another dunsink lane there...

sorry i'm just gonna stop there, the steam is pissing out of my ears already...

lostexpectation

marcsignal wrote:

im with you dancor, I know it's wrong to tar ALL travellers with the same brush, and that there are also people in the settled community who pay no taxes (some of them stinking rich as it happens) but society dosen't owe travellers any special consessions, they choose to live the way they do, and more often than not they give the two fingers to same society that always seems to bend over backwards so as not to offend them.
I can completely understand why the people of enniscorthy wouldn't want another dunsink lane there...

sorry i'm just gonna stop there, the steam is pissing out of my ears already...

ah yes you being perfect example of this supposed society that bends over backwards not to offend...
well atleast you've got more restraint then the councillor

eddiehobbs

Colourfull language maybe but hes spot on. Travellers get away with too much these days and many behave as if the law dosnt apply to them. Thats why theres resentment towards them. Personally speaking ive had many more negative than positive experiences with members of the travelling community

purple'n'gold

lostexpectation wrote:

ah the old accuse other of what your actually advocating trick



accusing them of rape and pillaging etc is just slightly OTT at a council meeting... a reprimand is in order.

There will be no reprimand.

The_Minister

DaveMcG wrote:

It's certainly colourful language...

That's my problem with it. It's not what he said (he is free to his opinions) but the way he said it.

moe_sizlak

eddiehobbs wrote:

Colourfull language maybe but hes spot on. Travellers get away with too much these days and many behave as if the law dosnt apply to them. Thats why theres resentment towards them. Personally speaking ive had many more negative than positive experiences with members of the travelling community

had some dealings with travellers in the past few yrs , they dont some painting for me , the 1st guy who did it conned me , the paint fell off after 6 months , he charged me peanuts but he was a monkey
the 2nd group of travellers painted for me less than 6 months ago , seems a better job but it was much more expensive and they kept coming back to me for about a month trying to get more work out of me plus they would only take cash and considering it was several thousand euro , i did not have it there and then
as i see it when you employ a traveller to do some work , you have to be prepared to be ripped off in some shape or form , its a principal of theres to be crooked

karen3212

Sometimes I have to laugh at the people that get ripped off by travellers, and forget about the times the settled community do the same thing. Some of the richest people in Ireland move when they think they might have to pay more tax.

I also can't believe he wants to put the travellers into the sea, what does he want to do with them there, drown them all. This politician is Hitler, and should be fired and ignored, he will only make miseries of more lives if he continues to influence society. Not in my back yard, where does he expect them to live?

mikemac

You're entitled to your opinion Karen but I'd say the vast majority of the Enniscorthy population support his views but were afraid of the PC brigade to say it. Or maybe there don't have a high public profile.

As another poster mentioned, travellers aren't known for voting so I'd say this councillor did not harm to his career at all

marcsignal

lostexpectation wrote:

ah yes you being perfect example.....

em ? and do you think could find it within yourself to pay me the courtesy of explaining exactly what you mean by that ?? :cool:

karen3212 wrote:

Sometimes I have to laugh at the people that get ripped off by travellers.......

pensioners being beaten to within an inch of their lives, locked in wardrobes, and cleaned out, of the often small amount of cash they have ??? odd thing to find funny ok it's an extreme example, but not as if it hasn't happened.

micmclo wrote:

...but were afraid of the PC brigade to say it.......

which IMO is the reason, we sometimes, out of the blue, have the pressure cooker lid blowing off, and people reacting with colourful language, maybe, just maybe, it will encourage a proper debate in the house about whole issue.

OK fine, the representative group Pave Point is a necessary, legitimate group with a valid agenda, but sometimes I honestly believe they're their own worst enemy. They did serious damage to their own credibility, and their public image, by sticking their oar in over the whole Roma M50 thing, and also defending the indefensible from time to time

The Corinthian

This politician has seemingly stirred up a debate on Travellers, regardless of the language he used, which is not a bad thing.

Unfortunately it is true that as a group they pay few if any taxes, yet expect the same society that they fail to contribute to, to contribute to them. While one may support any group's right to live according to their own traditions, they still are part of the society they share with those who do not share those traditions and if they take from that society without contributing then ultimately they are parasitic. Not a nice term, but that's the bottom line.

They are not the only group like this. Roma gypsies are another, as are certain settled subcultures in the inner cities who consider a life of dependency on social welfare to be the norm.

Why exactly are we not doing something to change this?

Bottle_of_Smoke

I'm stuck on the traveller issue. I mean you do hear a lot of stories. Obviously one can't take them for face value but with the hostility I feel from travellers (that I've realised are travellers) it wouldn't surprise me that they have complete disreguard for settled people.

In a sense you can't blame them. Interraicial marriages are still quite uncommon but marrying a traveller isn't even joked about.

Everyone looks down at them so it's a bit naive to expect them to be motivated enough to improve themselves for our benefit. We can't complain unless we're making an effort to try & look past stereotypes & treat them better.

karen3212

marcsignal wrote:

pensioners being beaten to within an inch of their lives, locked in wardrobes, and cleaned out, of the often small amount of cash they have ??? odd thing to find funny ok it's an extreme example, but not as if it hasn't happened.

And ah, is it only travellers or all travellers that are anti-social?
Yes proper debate, like putting them into the sea, have you come up with a solution to cleanse this world of their type? Would you call it the Final Solution?

The Corinthian

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

In a sense you can't blame them. Interraicial marriages are still quite uncommon but marrying a traveller isn't even joked about.

Travellers are not a separate race. Attaching the race card to them has a pretty recent, and cynical, attempt to kill off any criticism by using politically correct morality.

Everyone looks down at them so it's a bit naive to expect them to be motivated enough to improve themselves for our benefit. We can't complain unless we're making an effort to try & look past stereotypes & treat them better.

Of course we can complain, why can't we? Are you suggesting that any anti-social aspects to the Traveller lifestyle and culture are simply due to the attitudes of the settled community? That if we modified our attitudes their tax receipts would suddenly sky rocket, for example?

If any segment of society is screwing another, it is perfectly normal and acceptable for the latter to resent it.

karen3212 wrote:

And ah, is it only travellers or all travellers that are anti-social?

It would appear, more correctly, that it is the Traveller (sub-)culture that is anti-social.

Yes proper debate, like putting them into the sea, have you come up with a solution to cleanse this world of their type? Would you call it the Final Solution?

No, that wouldn't be a proper debate, that would be a sensational attempt to paint any criticism of Travellers as akin to Nazism so as to stifle debate.

aidan24326

Even if his words were somewhat ill-chosen I would commend him for being honest enough to come out and say what he said, knowing the PC police would lambast him for it. The Corinthian is spot on in what he has said.

Travellers would do well to have some understanding of why there's often this type of hostility towards them, something most of them appear not to have. They have the right to live a travelling lifestyle if they so wish but whether they like it or not they have certain responsibilities to respect the settled society that they've rejected.

They're quite happy to take from that society anything they can get but don't want to give anything back. It's hypocritical really, wanting this vagabond lifestyle on the one hand but quite happy to engage with settled society whenever there's a handout going or a vacant parking lot to be squatted in.

If they would like to be treated with less animosity, not leaving an almighty mess everywhere they go would be a start. They don't consider that it's ordinary Joe Taxpayer in the settled community who has to foot the bill to clean up after them, often substantial costs, not to mention the eyesore, pollution etc. Would it be too much to ask that they might clean up their own tipheap before they move on?

karen3212

The Corinthian wrote:

Of course we can complain, why can't we? Are you suggesting that any anti-social aspects to the Traveller lifestyle and culture are simply due to the attitudes of the settled community? That if we modified our attitudes their tax receipts would suddenly sky rocket, for example?

If any segment of society is screwing another, it is perfectly normal and acceptable for the latter to resent it.

It would appear, more correctly, that it is the Traveller (sub-)culture that is anti-social.

No, that wouldn't be a proper debate, that would be a sensational attempt to paint any criticism of Travellers as akin to Nazism so as to stifle debate.

They are subject to the laws of this country as all people here are. The revenue looks at all our taxes too. You continue in your post above to treat them all as one, and their culture as inferior to yours. They have their own culture and lifestyle, as do you. I have no right to tell you how to celebrate/live your life. Why do you think you have the right to tell travellers how to live. Oh, if only we could all live as you do, only drink as much as you do, excercise as much as you do, then oh then wouldn't you live in a perfect world.

I have not seen you condemn the politician who said he would put them all in the sea? Do you agree with him then? Silence is agreement imo.

marcsignal

karen3212 wrote:

And ah, is it only travellers or all travellers that are anti-social ?

No, Ive already made it clear that you can't tar ALL travellers with the same brush, AND that there are tax dodgers and chancers in the settled community(see post # 9)

As for your reference to The Final Solution, other than to say that is No Solution, I'm sorry, it just does not dignify a response.:cool:

The Corinthian wrote:

Travellers are not a separate race. Attaching the race card to them has a pretty recent, and cynical, attempt to kill off any criticism by using politically correct morality.

Here Here, I just don't buy the whole PC concept, sorry. Long before we were enlightned by this, essentially, American idea, we had a thing called 'Mutual Respect' and that still works for me. The trouble, for some people, is the fact that respect is a two way street. IMO Nobody has a God given right to respect, it must shown BY you, and earned BY you FROM the people around you, through the way you choose to interact.

aidan24326

karen3212 wrote:

They are subject to the laws of this country as all people here are

Problem is they tend to not see it quite like that. Multiple convictions for petty crime are not unusual. Granted there are plenty in the settled community in that boat too, but I don't see anyone clapping them on the back either.

The revenue looks at all our taxes too.

So The Revenue assesses all travellers do they? News to me. Many of them deal only in cash, so nigh on impossible to assess them.

I have no right to tell you how to celebrate/live your life

Quite right. What you do have is a right to have your way of life treated with a little respect and that my choice of lifestyle doesn't impinge on yours. i.e that I don't squat in your property for a few months then move on leaving a mountain of rubbish, damaged/stolen property etc.

Why do you think you have the right to tell travellers how to live?

Nobody said any such thing. This is simply a case of certain things being unacceptable. We can't all choose to live absolutely any way we like. It doesn't work like that. I can't decide that I'm going to make my living off robbing others, or that I'd like to become a hitman and make my money from contract killings. Well I could of course, but the society I live in doesn't permit this for good reasons and so I would have to face the consequences were I caught. Whether we like it or not we're all bound by certain social and legal constraints.

I have not seen you condemn the politician who said he would put them all in the sea? Do you agree with him then? Silence is agreement imo

I can't speak for The Corinthian but I can say that I don't agree entirely with the choice of words and said so in a previous post. The comment about putting them out in the sea was obviously said in the heat of the moment and can be taken as such.

JimiTime

I do think a debate is needed. High illiteracy rates. Domestic violence. Anti-social behaviour. Tax evasion. Driving while uninsured. Robbery. Leaving places they stop in a terrible state. A culture of bare knuckle boxing, dog fights etc. I would certainly say that they do themselves no favours in the PR department. I've known a couple of lovely settled travellers, but both myself and people I know have been victims of numerous amounts of their more negative stereotypes. I lived in England for a few years, and unfortunately, they haven't exactly endeared themselves to the locals over there neither. I've grown up around them, have had dealings with them, and hung around with some in my younger days. IMO, its not a culture i could defend. As I said, in my experience, alot of domestic abuse, bad education and huge crime rate. There is no doubt, there are good people in the travelling community, but I would certainly be weary. Its sad, but I do think a debate must happen. In response to Karen, I don't think they should be sent to sea (obviously), but their 'culture', needs to be assesed. The politician in question, was obviously frustrated with what has happened, and as a public figure should have been more careful with his words, but I empathise with his situation. I would not go saying he's hitler etc. That leads the debate down an emotional and irrational path. I'm all for rational debate on the matter, its been a long time coming.

The Corinthian

karen3212 wrote:

They are subject to the laws of this country as all people here are. The revenue looks at all our taxes too.

It's arguable how subject to the laws of this country they are is the issue. Without a fixed address and given a propensity to use only cash, how exactly do you suggest that you apply those laws?

You continue in your post above to treat them all as one, and their culture as inferior to yours.

I certainly can treat them aggregately as a demographic, because they are one.

As for suggesting that their culture is inferior, I did no such thing. I said that given that they take from a society they do not contribute to then one can certainly say it is by definition parasitic, but that is not the same as suggesting something is either superior or inferior.

They have their own culture and lifestyle, as do you. I have no right to tell you how to celebrate/live your life. Why do you think you have the right to tell travellers how to live.

What an idiotic assertion. Of course you have a right to tell me how I live my life - when my lifestyle choice impinges upon yours. The whole point of society - of civilization - is that humans find a means of coexisting in communities which inevitably means that we sacrifice the absolute right to do whatever we please.

Oh, if only we could all live as you do, only drink as much as you do, excercise as much as you do, then oh then wouldn't you live in a perfect world.

Do you always speak in cliches?

I have not seen you condemn the politician who said he would put them all in the sea? Do you agree with him then? Silence is agreement imo.

I've not condemned him because I don't believe he meant it literally. If I did I would.

marcsignal

karen3212 wrote:

Silence is agreement imo.

............an old "Simon and Garfunkel" Classic springs to mind

karen3212

I still find the failure to condemn this politician absolutely disgusting.

For anyone who wants to read about travellers in Ireland I found this site interesting.

http://www.nccri.ie/travellr.html

Oh, and define cliche,

if you are referring to the fact that a man who says travellers should be put in the sea is Hitler like, then that is not a cliche.

The Corinthian

karen3212 wrote:

I still find the failure to condemn this politician absolutely disgusting.

And we find it perplexing how you have failed to grasp why we have not condemned him.

No one has condemned him because no one believes he meant it literally. What we believe (and it has been pointed out repeatedly to you by posters here) is that he voiced his frustrations in the only way open to him in a society that has repeatedly failed to address the anti-social behavior of one of its demographic groups.

Actually that you have failed to even acknowledge that the settled community might even have such frustrations is pretty disgusting too.

For anyone who wants to read about travellers in Ireland I found this site interesting.

A lot of that piece was serious bull, TBH. For example, it spends a good chunk of the time attempting to muddy the waters on a definition of racism, so as to widen it, yet fails to ever deliver one. This leaves the reader in a situation where racism has been mentioned so often that they would be forgiven if they thought it was even relevant to the subject. It's not.

if you are referring to the fact that a man who says travellers should be put in the sea is Hitler like, then that is not a cliche.

Yes it's a cliche. You've from the onset of this thread attempted to make a ham-fisted parallel implying that this chap was, or was akin to the Nazis. Spend enoungh time on the internet and you'll realize that it's the oldest and laziest way of trying to win an argument. You might take the time to read up on Godwin's Law when you have time, actually.

marcsignal

karen3212 wrote:

I still find the failure to condemn this politician absolutely disgusting.

ok Karen, in all fairness you are right, as a politician he should have shown more restraint, but I just think it reflects just how immotive the whole issue has become. Don't you agree ? I mean if a man in his position is going to blow a gasket in his official capacity, then it just shows there is a large degree of frustration in the settled community over the whole issue.

I personally blame the PC lobbiests for creating this situation, because they stifle, what I believe are guenuine concerns many people have about Travellers. People become afraid to voice these concerns, for fear someone will call them a "big fat nazi racist", these feelings fester, and then when someone speaks out, it becomes a feeding frenzy. That's what I think is dangerous.

I also, believe it or not, feel genuine sympathy for the Traveller Women and Children, because I don't think, given the choice, any woman would WANT to send her children out to beg.

I'd much prefere to see a Pragmatic Solution than a Final Solution, any day, but in order for that to work, we have to stop poncing around the problem and establish what is acceptable in a civilised society, and what is not, for BOTH sides, agree on that, and work from there.

If it was ever allowed to degenerate again into another Padraig Nally situation, the damage it would be catostrophic for relations between both communities.

I'm Irish, but you can see where I'm living now. I have to pass KZ Dachau every day going to work, and it's a reminder, to me anyway, of where situations like this could lead, in a worst case scenario, and despite what anybody has posted here, I'm pretty sure nobody would really want that.

purple'n'gold

“I still find the failure to condemn this politician absolutely disgusting.”

This man is a local politician in Wexford. He is well respected and the VAST majority of the people down here are fore square behind him and agree with him totally He didn’t mean that they should be all be drowned, (but I think sensible people realize that). No one in Wexford will condemn him. By the way “travelers” is a made up word of recent origin, no one in Wexford outside the media or politics or the church call them anything else except Tinkers down here. (I know, tinkers are tin workers etc. heard it all before). But the fact is that is the way they are described by the man/woman in the street in Co. Wexford. Maybe this upsets the PC brigade, but that’s just the way it is.

moe_sizlak

the only reason that the world tinker is offensive is because someone some time ago decided it was

FTA69

I'm in two minds on the Traveller issue, I accept the fact that they are discriminated against within society, but the fact also remains that there are many negative aspects within their culture that only they themselves can address. However, being a Traveller is often a struggle, even when they are long settled and have generally adopted our sort of lifestyle. I live in London and recently went out with a few fellas I work with and one Pavee to a club in Lester Square, as we passed in the door one bouncer chastised a younger one for letting "two f*cking Irish pikeys in". He didn't even make the effort to conceal his comments. Such attitudes are far from scarce, and simply aren't justified in my opinion. I think JimiTime makes a few good points.

High illiteracy rates

True, but illiteracy in Ireland is by no means confined to Travellers, there are thousands of middle-aged people (usually rural) who are completely illiterate, normally its very hard to notice though. Nor is the above directly related to nomadism, but affects settled Pavees as well who often feel they don't fit in at schools.

Domestic violence. Anti-social behaviour. Tax evasion

Again, the same is prevalent in most working-class communities in Ireland.

A culture of bare knuckle boxing

I'm in mixed minds about the boxing (much of which is confined to sporting boxing with gloves). The bare-knuckle fighting is more often than not used to settle disputes between two individuals, which is a perfectly fair way of doing things. However it has now become very commercialised with videos of fights selling for big money in England and America and often younger Travellers are pressurised into fighting against their will.

dog fights

Pavees are more into sulky racing, in fact here in England it is young blacks and Turks who are the most prevalent for dog-fighting.

I'm friends with a few Pavees over here, some of whom have been very good to me since I came here and often they will admit the above themselves, and have no problem doing so. However you will find them fairly hostile if you seek to demand explanations from them about the actions of other Travellers, and I wouldn't blame them either. You'll get the same reaction if you badger Americans about George Bush or black people about Louis Farrakhan.

FTA69

I'm in two minds on the Traveller issue, I accept the fact that they are discriminated against within society, but the fact also remains that there are many negative aspects within their culture that only they themselves can address. However, being a Traveller is often a struggle, even when they are long settled and have generally adopted our sort of lifestyle. I live in London and recently went out with a few fellas I work with and one Pavee to a club in Lester Square, as we passed in the door one bouncer chastised a younger one for letting "two f*cking Irish pikeys in". He didn't even make the effort to conceal his comments. Such attitudes are far from scarce, and simply aren't justified in my opinion. I think JimiTime makes a few good points.

High illiteracy rates

True, but illiteracy in Ireland is by no means confined to Travellers, there are thousands of middle-aged people (usually rural) who are completely illiterate, normally its very hard to notice though. Nor is the above directly related to nomadism, but affects settled Pavees as well who often feel they don't fit in at schools.

Domestic violence. Anti-social behaviour. Tax evasion

Again, the same is prevalent in most working-class communities in Ireland.

A culture of bare knuckle boxing

I'm in mixed minds about the boxing (much of which is confined to sporting boxing with gloves). The bare-knuckle fighting is more often than not used to settle disputes between two individuals, which is a perfectly fair way of doing things. However it has now become very commercialised with videos of fights selling for big money in England and America and often younger Travellers are pressurised into fighting against their will.

dog fights

Pavees are more into sulky racing, in fact here in England it is young blacks and Turks who are the most prevalent for dog-fighting.

I'm friends with a few Pavees over here, some of whom have been very good to me since I came here and often they will admit the above themselves, and have no problem doing so. However you will find them fairly hostile if you seek to demand explanations from them about the actions of other Travellers, and I wouldn't blame them either. You'll get the same reaction if you badger Americans about George Bush or black people about Louis Farrakhan.

liberty 2007

karen3212 wrote:

where does he expect them to live?

He expects them to live the same way as the rest of us. I would love to see the figures on what percentage of travellers pay tax. In the old days travellers were better behaved because if they did'nt, they were run out of town. Now with the PC brigade and all the special laws to protect them, the take advantage.

jmayo

Travellers have a right to live and to avail of services like anyone else, but they also have to abide by the laws of the land like anyone else.

What gets me is how they appear to get preferential treatment. By that I mean how come they can break the laws of the land and get away with it.
The guards don't appear to be interested.
Some people asked how come the traveller killed in Mayo had numerous outstanding warrants, but yet no effort had been made to arrest him?
Did they just not notice him?

A farmer can be prosecuted for burning rushes/briers/straw etc, but you can pass a travellers campsite where there are plumes of black smoke belching from big open fires on a nightly basis. Does anyone get prosecuted ? NO

An incident occurred in Dublin where a group of travellers squatted on a GAA pitch and left asbestos waste behind. If the authorities find a member of the so called "settled community" disposes of asbestos in that manner they are prosecuted and rightly so.

Why is there a difference in the way they are treated?
There appears to be a fear that if anything is said or done then we are unPC and racists. AFAIK we are all the same race we just chose to live differently.

moe_sizlak

the gardai screwed up big time with that padraig nally case
number 1 , the traveller who got shot had a bunch of arrest warrants to his name and 2ndly , if it was known that padraig nally was paranoid about the travellers tormenting him , why did the gardai not take the gun off him , beleive me , if the guards want to take a gun of someone , they can have it done very quickly and for much less reasons than in this case
i suspect there was no one putting any pressure on them to do so , gardai usually act if they have enough pressure coming from someone important who has a role in the case , in this case there was a poor farmer and a fugitive traveller so nothing was going to be done

FTA69

What gets me is how they appear to get preferential treatment. By that I mean how come they can break the laws of the land and get away with it.

They do in their holes. Travellers are always getting stopped by the cops, beaten up by the cops and often they aren't even let into pubs. They also have a higher percentage of population in jail than the settled.

There appears to be a fear that if anything is said or done then we are unPC and racists. AFAIK we are all the same race we just chose to live differently.

They mightn't be a different race per se, but there is an argument to be made that they are a different ethnic group, ie nomadism, different language and customs etc.

moe_sizlak

FTA69 wrote:

They do in their holes. Travellers are always getting stopped by the cops, beaten up by the cops and often they aren't even let into pubs. They also have a higher percentage of population in jail than the settled.



They mightn't be a different race per se, but there is an argument to be made that they are a different ethnic group, ie nomadism, different language and customs etc.

the reason there is a higher percentage of travellers in jail is because travellers are much more likely to engage in criminality and if you ever had any dealings with travellers you would know that they are much more prone to violence than members of the settled community , violence and lawlessness are part and parcel of traveller culture , thats just the way it is but if you want to indulge in political correctness or other high mindesness , be my guest

FTA69

the reason there is a higher percentage of travellers in jail is because travellers are much more likely to engage in criminality

True, the same way blacks in London are more likely to engage in crime. Does this mean that either group are genetically programmed to commit crime? No, it simply demonstrates the fact that poverty and social exclusion are the biggest factors in criminal activity.

and if you ever had any dealings with travellers you would know that they are much more prone to violence than members of the settled community ,

I'm from a deprived housing estate and have had many dealings with Travellers, in fact I had a pint with one earlier on today. The fact remains that if you go into Knocknaheeny or Ballymun or anywhere else you will discover that violence is much more prevalent in these areas than in their more affluent counterparts. There is a culture of "straighteners" and people are often involved in scraps over matters big and small. Settled people are well able to beat people up, steal cars and sell drugs. They do it in large numbers every day, the question is why do they do it.

violence and lawlessness are part and parcel of traveller culture , thats just the way it is but if you want to indulge in political correctness or other high mindesness , be my guest

Just because I disagree with you labelling people with generalisations doesn't mean I am a wooly liberal. Over here I have come into contact with a huge variety of groups, and all suffer the same stereotyping. The Irish are unsophisticated drunks, the Jamaicans are layabouts and crack-dealers, the Poles are drunken brawlers, the Romanians are thieves, the Nigerians are fraudsters, the Turks sell heroin, the Indians are stuck up, the Jews are tight, Boers are all racists, the Chinese are up to their necks in video piracy and gambling, the Somalis are lawless gangsters, the Bengalis are backward, the Pakistanis are fanatics... are you getting the picture?

The fact is that all stereotypes have an element of truth, usually perpetuated by a visible minority. The other fact is that the above cultures have some good aspects too, even the Travellers, and that judging entire ethnic groups with blanket statements is simply a bullsh*t argument.

The Corinthian

FTA69 wrote:

They mightn't be a different race per se, but there is an argument to be made that they are a different ethnic group, ie nomadism, different language and customs etc.

So what? Why are people so intent on painting groups as different races or ethnicities? Does belonging to a different ethnic group or race give one a carte blanche to behave as you wish in society?

If so I'd like to complain about sexual harassment laws in Ireland as they oppress by ethnic Italian customs.

The Corinthian

FTA69 wrote:

The fact is that all stereotypes have an element of truth, usually perpetuated by a visible minority. The other fact is that the above cultures have some good aspects too, even the Travellers, and that judging entire ethnic groups with blanket statements is simply a bullsh*t argument.

I'm sure that the Travelling community would welcome a study of their culture, in relation to occupation and all income (or lack thereof), tax receipts (or lack thereof) and criminal activity (or lack thereof) which would no doubt highlight how it is only a minority that puts the community in disrepute.

moe_sizlak

it was mentioned that travellers like blacks are more prone to violence due to them being more likely to live in poverty
1st of all let me say i live in an area where there are very few black people , ive met black people on a small number of occasions and i like them very much , especially black ladies , i would feel much more comofortable in the company of a black person than in the company of a traveller

on to the point about travellers being dysfunctional because they are poor
many travellers are quite rich , they by and large only deal in cash and so pay no tax , most travellers that i see drive brand new vans
there culture and ways are inherrintly dysfunctional to most settled irish people
what with there nomadic lifestyle and all it entails , the words personal responsibility spring to mind when it comes to travellers , any place they park there caravans ends up like a rubbish tip and there is no such thing as any guarentee when you either employ a traveller to do a job or buy something off them , you bought it as you saw it sir is there motto

aidan24326

FTA69 wrote:

The fact is that all stereotypes have an element of truth, usually perpetuated by a visible minority. The other fact is that the above cultures have some good aspects too, even the Travellers, and that judging entire ethnic groups with blanket statements is simply a bullsh*t argument.

Thing is most sterotypes only have an element of truth and it's often limited to a visible minority like you said. However it's very debatable whether that applies to travellers where crime and violence are part and parcel of life and not by any means limited to a small minority. Of course it's not limited to travellers either, these problems being widespread in working class parts of our cities aswell but it's travellers we're talking about here.

What do travellers in Ireland actually want though? Representatives of traveller's groups will often say that they just wanted to be treated fairly etc. but that will not happen while they continue to alienate themselves with anti-social behaviour. If a publican won't allow travellers in, it's often with good reason based on past experiences. If a community doesn't want 10 traveller caravans on their doorstep it's again not without some justification given the mess they leave behind and their known propensity for criminal activity.

I lived in the D15 area when travellers left several tonnes of rubbish on local community soccer pitches and I saw for myself what total disregard they had for the people living in that area. A group of travellers behaving like that can hardly have any complaints when they're met with hostility in the next town.

JimiTime

^^ Thats the key really. I haven't heard any traveller groups such as pave point ever come out and admit that its a problem. Until they do, I don't think i can see them being credible in a forum of discussion. Its obvious to all that there are risks in allowing travellers use your premises for a function etc. I recall a programme called 'Harbour Nights', that was on RTE about 8 years ago. It was a bit like Courtown uncovered . There was a traveller couple looking to hire a venue for their wedding reception. Nowhere would let them, and there was a bit of the oul, 'we're just normal people, this is discrimination etc'. Eventually, one lady let them use her hotel, and took a bit of a moral high ground if I recall. A few weeks later, they returned to the hotel, post wedding. Lets just say, she wont be accusing her fellow hoteliers of discrimination again.

Now until a travellers group comes out and admits that there is an issue, I personally, cannot take them seriously. At the end of the day, when I was 17, I was not a boy racer, i was a good careful driver. But my insurance quotes were on average about £4000. Is that discrimination? No, its an insurance company saying, 17 year olds are much more likely to be involved in an accident due to inexperience, speeding and stupidity. Also, the figures show it to be such. In the same way, due to their reputation, which has a solid foundation, there is dubiousness when dealing with travellers. Just as I was a frustrated 17 year old who thought it was wholly unfair, there was good reason behind it. I think its similar from a traveller perspective.

Also, if you're a bouncer on a door, and a guy comes up in levis, gold chains and some nike air max, he would also be told 'not tonight'. The fact is, its risk evaluation. A bar owner is not going to risk his customers, or livlyhood etc, by risking an incident. IMO, travellers, if they want to integrate with the settled community, must show that they are making cultural advances towards it. Coming out and crying racism, just belittles their cause IMO.

FTA69

Corinthian,

So what? Why are people so intent on painting groups as different races or ethnicities?

Because that's the reality of the situation. How can you address inequalities without addressing race, which is often a reason for that inequality?

Does belonging to a different ethnic group or race give one a carte blanche to behave as you wish in society?

Did I say it did?

Moe,

1st of all let me say i live in an area where there are very few black people , ive met black people on a small number of occasions and i like them very much , especially black ladies , i would feel much more comofortable in the company of a black person than in the company of a traveller

That's because you live in Ireland. I guarantee you if you were in a Jamaican ragga rave in Brixton you would be a damn sight less comfortable. Over here (and the US) blacks have a reputation for disproportionate violence and crime, as I said, the reality is that there is some cultural explanation for this some of the time, but mostly it is down to poverty.

many travellers are quite rich , they by and large only deal in cash and so pay no tax , most travellers that i see drive brand new vans

Is that why they have a life-expectancy of 65? Because they are loaded? :rolleyes: Some Travellers are rich (ie the Rathkealers), most haven't a pot to p*ss in.

Jimi,

Now until a travellers group comes out and admits that there is an issue, I personally, cannot take them seriously.

Pavee Point simply states that anyone breaking the law should be dealt with through the appropriate channels. They are there as a support group for Travellers as a whole, they are not there to continuously berate Traveller criminals for the benefit of the settled community.

Its obvious to all that there are risks in allowing travellers use your premises for a function etc

Fair enough, and I'm not going to deny that Travellers often wreck pubs, I've seen them do it more than once. Don't get me wrong, if I was a publican and ten drunk Traveller men coming out of a Christening went into my pub I wouldn't serve them either. (Although large groups of males are rarely let in anywhere for that matter.) However I know a Pavee woman and her sister who wasn't even let into a London pub in the middle of the day for a gin and tonic and a bowl of soup. Are two middle-aged women going to destroy the place? No, the real reason was simply that the pub-owner didn't want Pavees "bringing the character of the place down", a similar reason why people won't let blacks or Bengalis into nightclubs. Blanket bans are unacceptable in my view, no matter what group they concern.

liberty 2007

moe_sizlak wrote:

the reason there is a higher percentage of travellers in jail is because travellers are much more likely to engage in criminality and if you ever had any dealings with travellers you would know that they are much more prone to violence than members of the settled community , violence and lawlessness are part and parcel of traveller culture , thats just the way it is but if you want to indulge in political correctness or other high mindesness , be my guest

I agree.

JimiTime

fta69 wrote:

Jimi,

Pavee Point simply states that anyone breaking the law should be dealt with through the appropriate channels. They are there as a support group for Travellers as a whole, they are not there to continuously berate Traveller criminals for the benefit of the settled community.

This type of exageration is not productive, and is one of the problems faced when trying to discuss things like this. To say 'they are not there to continually berate traveller criminals for the benefit of the settled', is presenting it as if that was my point. Its not, and very disingenuous of you. I did not say that traveller groups should do such a thing. What i said, is that they should not be just crying bigotry, when there are good reasons for certain actions and feelings towards travellers. In not showing empathy towards the settled community, and basically accusing people, wrongly, of being bigoted or racist etc when they have issue with travellers, they loose credability IMO.

Fair enough, and I'm not going to deny that Travellers often wreck pubs, I've seen them do it more than once. Don't get me wrong, if I was a publican and ten drunk Traveller men coming out of a Christening went into my pub I wouldn't serve them either. (Although large groups of males are rarely let in anywhere for that matter.)

Indeed.

However I know a Pavee woman and her sister who wasn't even let into a London pub in the middle of the day for a gin and tonic and a bowl of soup. Are two middle-aged women going to destroy the place? No, the real reason was simply that the pub-owner didn't want Pavees "bringing the character of the place down", a similar reason why people won't let blacks or Bengalis into nightclubs. Blanket bans are unacceptable in my view, no matter what group they concern.

Once again, you jump to the assumption that its some kind of class thing. You assume that the publican doesn't want to bring the standard of the pub down. No doubt, this happens, but in the majority of cases its as I said, 'risk evaluation'. The publican is just as likely to be thinking, 'if I let them in, they may bring others in, and they may feel they've got a lace that they are allowed into'. Then he thinks, in the long run that will spell trouble, so he makes a call on it. I think its very unfortunate on the innocent people that are good law abiding folk being tarred with this brush, of course it is. But its not without good reasoning. You cannot tell me its not risky! I worked in a pub in London that accepted a traveller christening. I was on my guard all night, and thankfully no violence occurred, although it threatened to a few times. But I was asked to fiddle the till, give out free drink, pestered to the point where I gave them free shots, for the situation was threatening, and I could go on. While it went, thankfully, fairly incident free, it still had its stresses, and to be honest, the guy whos child got christened seemed like a sound enough bloke. In saying that he pestered for free this or free that, and was trying to bribe me to give out free booze.

Really, m point is, I hate to see innocent folk get a raw deal. But, I also hate to see people shout bigot, at someone who says that they would have issue with travellers.

The Corinthian

FTA69 wrote:

Because that's the reality of the situation. How can you address inequalities without addressing race, which is often a reason for that inequality?

It's irrelevant to this discussion. Travellers are not a different race. They're arguably not even a different ethnic group - and certainly if so not one that is all that far removed from the rest of Irish society.

Playing the race card is just another example, as with the article that was proffered earlier, of justification through obfuscation.

Did I say it did?

You imply it.

aidan24326

They're not a different race, an ethnic group yes. They rarely breed/marry outside their own ethnic group though which brings it's own problems, a small genetic pool. Playing the race card just panders to the PC police who actually do more harm than good. Like Jimitime said the traveller's representative groups will not be taken seriously until the traveller community as a whole show that they're willing to compromise in the interests of themelves and the settled community.

Some of their issues could be solved/alleviated if they were willing to take some steps themselves. I do feel sorry for the genuine few who are persecuted for the actions of others but in the case of travellers in general it's not simply the 10% giving the rest a bad name and we all know that. They need to start the addressing the issue of why there's so much distrust there, it didn't fall out of the sky. But are they prepared to even go down that road?