2/4 hand

Fatboydim

Find myself with Aces UTG. I limp and UTG + 1 makes it $20 to go. Folded around to me - I haven't been at the table long but have just above the buy in $426 he has $450. I make it $80. He calls.

Flop comes QQ2

I check he make a bet of $100 - What do I do? What hand can I put him on?

bops

AA KK QQ - that's about it really!!

horrible spot - i think he's got KK

gl

30something

Fatboydim wrote:

Find myself with Aces UTG. I limp and UTG + 1 makes it $20 to go. Folded around to me - I haven't been at the table long but have just above the buy in $426 he has $450. I make it $80. He calls.

Flop comes QQ2

I check he make a bet of $100 - What do I do? What hand can I put him on?

I don't play these stakes but if you put this guy on a Q in this situation you shouldn't be playing poker. I'm either calling or raising depending on my read of him. His 1/2 pot bet is probably an attempt to buy it now, the fact that he raised in EP with one caller means he has a hand so on balance I'm raising min hoping he thinks I'm testing his probe and we get it all in right now. If he has the Q (or the ducks) then you are destined to loose all your money anyway.

BIGMICKG

my first post wuhoo!!!!!!! well personally i would have bet out on the flop $50 - $100 somewhere in that region. dont see the need to try and slow play here cos if he has JJ KK hes probably gonna call anyway then u might try a trap check on the turn maybe? anyway i flat call the $100 on the flop and bet the turn

El Stuntman

shove

bops

El Stuntman wrote:

shove

i forgot to stick that on the end of my post!

Captain Tom

id call now and check/call all in on the turn. if he checks turn i shove river.

grey_abbey

I dont like your limp-raise. You're telegraphing your hand. Open raise.
As played, flop is good for you, question is how to extract.
I weak-lead the flop, call a raise, get the rest in over turn and river.

fuzzbox

well played

pok3rplaya

Captain Tom wrote:

id call now and check/call all in on the turn. if he checks turn i shove river.

+1

Goodluck2me

Fatboydim wrote:

Find myself with Aces UTG.... I limp .... I reraise to $80.

i didnt realise anyone still did this. Dont.

NickyOD

I would just call probably with the intention of getting it all in on the turn or maybe the river.

The reason limp raising still works is because people play bad.

cardshark202

Preflop is pretty bad, anything but getting it in on flop/turn or river would also be very bad

CaptainNemo

Shoving allows him to get off his hand, which is very likely to be KK, so I like the line of check/call turn, shove on the river if you still have chips left.

Limp-reraising isn't so bad in my opinion. As long as you're not doing it with aces.

gosplan

Has the limp raise potentially brought AQ into the hand or can we rule that out?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Fatboydim

I should have added that it was an eight seater table. On an eight seater table I think the chances of a raise in late position are greater and I'm happy to reraise. Once again CS thinks pre-flop is crap :rolleyes:

My thinking when UTG + 1 calls is that he that his range is AA KK QQ JJ and possibly AK as the limp re-raise might see this hand coming into play. I can almost certainly rule out AA for obvious reasons. And it's the same reason I rule out QQ. I consider AQ but think it's unlikely and likewise 22 only if he is a complete donk. I'm thinking he's either betting with JJ hoping I'll fold or that he's on KK, in which case I'll push.

I pushed and he had QQ - I can't see anyway I'm getting away from the hand - But I do wonder if I play aces too strongly. Had I raised pre-flop I think we would have still got to see a flop and the result would be the same.

fuzzbox

Fatboydim wrote:

I should have added that it was an eight seater table. On an eight seater table I think the chances of a raise in late position are greater and I'm happy to reraise. Once again CS thinks pre-flop is crap :rolleyes:

My thinking when UTG + 1 calls is that he that his range is AA KK QQ JJ and possibly AK as the limp re-raise might see this hand coming into play. I can almost certainly rule out AA for obvious reasons. And it's the same reason I rule out QQ. I consider AQ but think it's unlikely and likewise 22 only if he is a complete donk. I'm thinking he's either betting with JJ hoping I'll fold or that he's on KK, in which case I'll push.

I pushed and he had QQ - I can't see anyway I'm getting away from the hand - But I do wonder if I play aces too strongly. Had I raised pre-flop I think we would have still got to see a flop and the result would be the same.

Pushing is really silly.

30something

Fatboydim wrote:

I pushed and he had QQ

Flop QQ2 :eek: (Closes eyes, rubs them and checks flop a second time ....) :eek: Rinse and repeat ..... :eek: :eek: :eek: swiftly changing to .... and then :mad: :mad: :mad: (as lap top breaks double glazed window)

ianmc38

Fatboydim wrote:

Once again CS thinks pre-flop is crap :rolleyes:

It's not a subjective thing. It's more he knows it's crap.

As regards the hand. I'd check call all in on the turn. If turn is checked through, I'd shove the river.

cardshark202

Actually if you raised normally I can almost guarantee that the flop would not be the same QQ2 flop.

fuzzbox

Fatboydim wrote:

I pushed and he had QQ - I can't see anyway I'm getting away from the hand - But I do wonder if I play aces too strongly. Had I raised pre-flop I think we would have still got to see a flop and the result would be the same.

So if you make it 20pf, and he calls, and flop comes QQ2 you check, he bets and you shove?

Hohoho.

ianmc38

he's on fire

cardshark202

C'mon guys he only asked for advice not for abuse

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

C'mon guys he only asked for advice not for abuse

Wheres the abuse?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

fuzzbox

LuckyLloyd wrote:

In this particular hand, you made it very easy for the villain to play against you. If he is a thinking player, he would realise that the limp re - raise is usually AA or KK. He would then have known that he was most likely behind pre - flop, and therefore was able to call and take a flop knowing that he probably takes all your money on a Q high board - and probably fold without too much thought when he doesn't hit a set.

Even though it appeared very easy for villain to play, villain still made a mistake preflop by calling the 60 reraise for a chance to win a total of 450 (the 426 in heros stack, the 20 raise that he put in and the blinds). This is about 14% of stacks and makes it an unprofitable call even if he gets heros stack 100% of the time that he flops a set, and gets away postflop 100% of the time that he doesnt flop a set.

If villain was a thinking player then he would realise this.

cardshark202

Yeah if he knows Fbd has AA 100% of the time yes

cardshark202

Also another reason to not fold AA on boards like this:

Noble Poker 2.00/4.00, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop

Button cardshark202 ($923.50)
SB ($401.00)
BB ($458.30)
UTG ($394.00)
UTG+1 UTG+1 ($202.17)
MP ($172.80)
CO-1 CO-1 ($375.40)
CO ($407.00)

Preflop: cardshark202 is on the Button with A A
1 fold, UTG+1 calls 4.00, 1 fold, CO-1 calls 4.00, 1 fold, cardshark202 raises to 22.00, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls 18.00, CO-1 calls 18.00.

Flop (72.00) 7 Q Q
UTG+1 bets 16.00, 1 fold, cardshark202 raises to 66.00, UTG+1 moves all-in for 164.17, cardshark202 calls 114.17.

Turn (432.34) 6

River (432.34) Q

cardshark202 shows A A
UTG+1 shows K 7

cardshark202 wins 432.34 with A fullhouse, Queen's and Ace's

I won't name the villain but I will say its relevant to this thread

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

Yeah if he knows Fbd has AA 100% of the time yes

Well if he doesnt, then surely the LRR play is not actually that bad after all.

You cant have it both ways.
Either its bad and always AA/KK
Or its not always AA/KK and its not so bad.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

Also another reason to not fold AA on boards like this:

Nobody has ever said that hero should fold.
Your HH has no bearing on the situation ... take it to BB sticky.

ianmc38

cardshark202 wrote:

Also another reason to not fold AA on boards like this:

Noble Poker 2.00/4.00, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop

Button cardshark202 ($923.50)
SB ($401.00)
BB ($458.30)
UTG ($394.00)
UTG+1 UTG+1 ($202.17)
MP ($172.80)
CO-1 CO-1 ($375.40)
CO ($407.00)

Preflop: cardshark202 is on the Button with A A
1 fold, UTG+1 calls 4.00, 1 fold, CO-1 calls 4.00, 1 fold, cardshark202 raises to 22.00, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls 18.00, CO-1 calls 18.00.

Flop (72.00) 7 Q Q
UTG+1 bets 16.00, 1 fold, cardshark202 raises to 66.00, UTG+1 moves all-in for 164.17, cardshark202 calls 114.17.

Turn (432.34) 6

River (432.34) Q

cardshark202 shows A A
UTG+1 shows K 7

cardshark202 wins 432.34 with A fullhouse, Queen's and Ace's

I won't name the villain but I will say its relevant to this thread

looks like there's some serious range merging going on here. maybe this whole thread is a metagame post?

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

Well if he doesnt, then surely the LRR play is not actually that bad after all.

You cant have it both ways.
Either its bad and always AA/KK
Or its not always AA/KK and its not so bad.

Well the point is that you shouldnt have people even considering folding QQ for $60 preflop in a HU pot on a 2/4 table. So the LRR is terrible in general

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

Well the point is that you shouldnt have people even considering folding QQ for $60 preflop in a HU pot on a 2/4 table. So the LRR is terrible in general

But he didnt fold, and we have no idea if he even considered it.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

fuzzbox

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Well Fuzz, people (even decent players) make spewy calls pre - flop all the time because they don't have the maths to a fine point.

So now he is a thinking player, but he just thinks bad. Once again, you cant have it both ways. Its a good play cos he gets QQ to make a big pf mistake, most likely leading to a big postflop mistake, or its not because it lets QQ off the hook. Which is it?

That said, you make a good point. Let's say my post is slightly inaccurate and we are not hurting ourselves in this hand against this particular villain because he is stupid and will still stack off on a low board no matter what we do pre - flop because ZOMG - QQ, LIKE!!

So we dont really care about metagame against the donkey ... right?

But surely any decent player at the table has just made a note on Len along the lines of: "Limp Re - raised Aces UTG once". And if Len ever shows up with KK or AA a second time after doing this the note will be edited to "limp re - raises AA - KK UTG".

Therefore, my basic point is that doing something specifically different with one particular part of your raising range is bad because you are giving away information to other players that is easily identifiable and usable.

Right, so the LRR, in a vacuum, is perfectly fine against this villain, and any other donks or thinking players who think bad, but its bad against the good players. ???

Van Dice

fuzzbox wrote:

Even though it appeared very easy for villain to play, villain still made a mistake preflop by calling the 60 reraise for a chance to win a total of 450 (the 426 in heros stack, the 20 raise that he put in and the blinds). This is about 14% of stacks and makes it an unprofitable call even if he gets heros stack 100% of the time that he flops a set, and gets away postflop 100% of the time that he doesnt flop a set.

If villain was a thinking player then he would realise this.

I think the real problem is that we let him get away cheaply on say a 9 high flop, thereby massively reducing the profitability of our aces.
His mistake in calling the l/rr preflop isn't a big one, and doesn't add much to our $EV.
But if we had open raised the hand we can get him to put his whole stack in on a 9 high flop, which would be a very big mistake (if he knew our cards obv), and adds greatly to our $EV.

fuzzbox

Van Dice wrote:

I think the real problem is that we let him get away cheaply on say a 9 high flop, thereby massively reducing the profitability of our aces.
His mistake in calling the l/rr preflop isn't a big one, and doesn't add much to our $EV.
But if we had open raised the hand we can get him to put his whole stack in on a 9 high flop, which would be a very big mistake (if he knew our cards obv), and adds greatly to our $EV.

And how do you know that he will fold on a 9-hi flop?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Van Dice

fuzzbox wrote:

And how do you know that he will fold on a 9-hi flop?

Obviously I don't. But I think it's reasonable to say that there is a much higher % chance that he will fold QQ on a raggy flop given the line we took, than if we had open raised.

MrPillowTalk

Van Dice wrote:

Obviously I don't. But I think it's reasonable to say that there is a much higher % chance that he will fold QQ on a raggy flop given the line we took, than if we had open raised.

So we are calling the 60 for set value? seems super spewy. Id have snap folded the QQ to the lrr but thats not really the point the villain played it badly but preflop from Len was also very bad as it should have let villain away from his QQ very lightly, villain found a call I rarely fold overpairs on paired boards because people love to run ridiculous bluff lines on them so time to go broke once we see a flop. Incidentally I hate pushing over the top on the flop almost as much as I dislike the lrr pre flop you basically allow villain to play perfect.

Van Dice

MrPillowTalk wrote:

So we are calling the 60 for set value? seems super spewy. Id have snap folded the QQ to the lrr but thats not really the point the villain played it badly but preflop from Len was also very bad as it should have let villain away from his QQ very lightly, villain found a call I rarely fold overpairs on paired boards because people love to run ridiculous bluff lines on them so time to go broke once we see a flop. Incidentally I hate pushing over the top on the flop almost as much as I dislike the lrr pre flop you basically allow villain to play perfect.

You misread my posts I think, I agree with all of this. My point was that the l/rr with AA loses so much postflop value, never mentioned anything about calling the QQ for set value

MrPillowTalk

Van Dice wrote:

You misread my posts I think, I agree with all of this. My point was that the l/rr with AA loses so much postflop value, never mentioned anything about calling the QQ for set value

I didnt misread it but I wasnt very clear in what I said.

Your post says he is more likely to fold QQ on a raggy board given the lrr line taken however that hypothesis assumes then that villain is calling the 60 for mainly set value, which intuitively seems way off I usually see calls like that as pairs that want to see non ace or king boards on which they will happily stack off praying hero has AK or JJ however unlikely that is. Hence I think he is equally likely to stick it in on a raggy board given either line being taken, however he is far more likely to get away pre flop and fold on a scary board if he does make the hero pre flop call given the lrr line that has been taken.

^makes sense in my head not sure how to write it more coherently than that though.

Fatboydim

cardshark202 wrote:

Also another reason to not fold AA on boards like this:

Noble Poker 2.00/4.00, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop

Button cardshark202 ($923.50)
SB ($401.00)
BB ($458.30)
UTG ($394.00)
UTG+1 UTG+1 ($202.17)
MP ($172.80)
CO-1 CO-1 ($375.40)
CO ($407.00)

Preflop: cardshark202 is on the Button with A A
1 fold, UTG+1 calls 4.00, 1 fold, CO-1 calls 4.00, 1 fold, cardshark202 raises to 22.00, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls 18.00, CO-1 calls 18.00.

Flop (72.00) 7 Q Q
UTG+1 bets 16.00, 1 fold, cardshark202 raises to 66.00, UTG+1 moves all-in for 164.17, cardshark202 calls 114.17.

Turn (432.34) 6

River (432.34) Q

cardshark202 shows A A
UTG+1 shows K 7

cardshark202 wins 432.34 with A fullhouse, Queen's and Ace's

I won't name the villain but I will say its relevant to this thread

Jesus Reggie you may as well name the idot ... I mean what kind of a donkey play is that???? The man is obviously a complete retard.

It's me isn't it.....:o

MrPillowTalk

Fatboydim wrote:

Jesus Reggie you may as well name the idot ... I mean what kind of a donkey play is that???? The man is obviously a complete retard.

It's me isn't it.....:o

Really?

If so you really need to remove open limping from your game especially in epos, and as for limp calling out of position, ugh.

Van Dice

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I didnt misread it but I wasnt very clear in what I said.

Your post says he is more likely to fold QQ on a raggy board given the lrr line taken however that hypothesis assumes then that villain is calling the 60 for mainly set value, which intuitively seems way off I usually see calls like that as pairs that want to see non ace or king boards on which they will happily stack off praying hero has AK or JJ however unlikely that is. Hence I think he is equally likely to stick it in on a raggy board given either line being taken, however he is far more likely to get away pre flop and fold on a scary board if he does make the hero pre flop call given the lrr line that has been taken.

^makes sense in my head not sure how to write it more coherently than that though.

Ok think we're almost agreeing! I'm of the opposite opinion, in that he is equally likely to call preflop, but he is far more likely to get away post-flop.
I don't agree that villain is calling 60 for set value all the time. Players don't play perfectly, and even excellent players make lots of mistakes, besides that 'decisions made in real time aren't perfect' (dunno where I heard quote but I like it).
People WILL take lines where they call QQ, then fold an overpair on the flop. They might fold, bet/fold, whatever, but they do fold.

But either way, it's different ways of saying the same thing, which is that the l/rr line extracts the least value from other big pair hands

Fatboydim

MrPillowTalk wrote:

Really?

If so you really need to remove open limping from your game especially in epos, and as for limp calling out of position, ugh.

To my shame I seem to remember a hand like that. Some irritating so and so always seemed to have a hand and I think I might have been on the beer... and i think it was a feck it he can't have a hand every time tilt moment. I do tilt online and never tilt live.

I also don't take 2 / 4 as seriously as I should. Which is mad in itself.

Good advice here though.

MrPillowTalk

Fatboydim wrote:

To my shame I seem to remember a hand like that. Some irritating so and so always seemed to have a hand and I think I might have been on the beer... and i think it was a feck it he can't have a hand every time tilt moment. I do tilt online and never tilt live.

I also don't take 2 / 4 as seriously as I should. Which is mad in itself.

Good advice here though.

Ahh beer goggles, fair enough know a bit about that particular vice myself.

MrPillowTalk

Van Dice wrote:

Ok think we're almost agreeing! I'm of the opposite opinion, in that he is equally likely to call preflop, but he is far more likely to get away post-flop.
I don't agree that villain is calling 60 for set value all the time. Players don't play perfectly, and even excellent players make lots of mistakes, besides that 'decisions made in real time aren't perfect' (dunno where I heard quote but I like it).
People WILL take lines where they call QQ, then fold an overpair on the flop. They might fold, bet/fold, whatever, but they do fold.

But either way, it's different ways of saying the same thing, which is that the l/rr line extracts the least value from other big pair hands

Your entitled to your opinion but I find it very hard to believe they will fold on a raggy board after calling that raise.

I do agree the lrr is the worst way of getting value.

Van Dice

MrPillowTalk wrote:

Your entitled to your opinion

As long as I know I'm wrong?!

MrPillowTalk

Van Dice wrote:

As long as I know I'm wrong?!

Lol no, I just dont think your right, that doesnt mean your wrong it just means Im also entitled to a differing opinion.