Bankroll Management Plan

Jippo

OK, I'm going to present this rather sad plan. Please comment.

Mission: Make money for petrol and maybe a little more pocket money. This replaces weekend job in supermarket.

Bankroll: Incredible €400

Game: Macau 1/2 NL

Buy-In: €80. If lost I go home. Never rebuy - not about luck on night, or confidence, just lower risk

Average winnings per session: Not positive. I usually lose 2 out of five. Other three come out like €150, €300, €600 (inc €80 buy in), so I suppose about €200 per session (1.5 sessions a week)

My rake: Every Friday 10% of roll, rounding down to nearest ten.

I started last night and brought my roll to €604. I'm going tonight for a while and assuming a loss I'll have €50 for myself on Friday.


Thank you

Theresalwaysone

40 big blinds limits you to a very tight range of opening hands which good players will pick up on. Also you really need to win your first hand or your in push or fold mode and there really is no point in that.

Stick it online and play .25/.50.

Rb

Horrible.

You've 20 Buyins for .10/.25 online, build it up from there or report back when you've lost the lot.

ianmc38

leading candidate for worst plan ever devised.

Captain Tom

Theresalwaysone wrote:

Stick it online and play .25/.50.

disagree with this.i cant think of a better place to build a BR than playing live in Macau. it's far softer than any stakes you'll find online. play tight, bet your big hands strong, dont bluff, profit.

edit: if you dont go busto at the start, of course.

Theresalwaysone

rb_ie wrote:

Horrible.

You've 20 Buyins for .10/.25 online, build it up from there or report back when you've lost the lot.

Unless you run sickly hot and spin it up.

Rb

Theresalwaysone wrote:

Unless you run sickly hot and spin it up.

Lol, don't think I made myself clear on that.
Meant stick it online and play $25NL, or stick with his current disaster of a plan and report back when he's lost the lot due to it.

Theresalwaysone

You edited your post as I posted that comment rb.

Tom, it may be soft but 5shortstack buy in's to a live game where the standard is horrible and variance wild is not a profitable plan.

Captain Tom

Theresalwaysone wrote:

Tom, it may be soft but 5shortstack buy in's to a live game where the standard is horrible and variance wild is not a profitable plan.

yeah you're obviously right i was just making a general statement which isnt really applicable here given bankroll constraints.

Jippo

It's more the taking of money for myself from my roll that I'm wondering about.

How do people extract money for themselves out of their roll?

cardshark202

This is a great idea, but I have a better one. Don't play poker.

Theresalwaysone

If your not roll building and are happy at your levels then all profit is taken from it I suppose. If you are roll building.... I have no idea.

badbeatcentral

put it online and play within your bankroll, never risk more than 5% of your roll at one time,

€400 at 1/2 is nothing and you would have to run really good not to go broke.

Theresalwaysone

badbeatcentral wrote:

put it online and play within your bankroll, never risk more than 5% of your roll at one time,

What about multi tabling?

badbeatcentral

for a new player it's prob not a good idea to multitable at all,

but if you are bored just playin 1, drop down a level and play more tables so you can still stick to proper BR management.

Theresalwaysone

Nothing to do with being bored. Its the fact that by playing one when you can comfortably play 2 or 3 is losing value and potential profitable oppotunities.

I do not advocate playing below the .10/.25 level. You WILL NOT take it seriously.

Sure its only 10euro. "call"

DeVore

400 is what a half decently rolled player would put in their pocket for a night at 1/2. I usually bring 500 come to think of it, and thats STILL shortish.

If you dont care about the 400 in terms of rent , food etc (ie: it is additional to your needs) then perhaps bring 200 of it to the 1/2 game, or all of it and play it, 200 at a time.

As for the smart arsed, help-free comments, they are mistaken.

400 is not his "roll" for the entire of his life, nor is he attempting to live from poker. He doesnt need to make the rent and there is no risk of "gambler's ruin" here. If variance takes the lot, he saves up again and continues on where he left off. Its not ideal, but its not the unspeakable act people above seem to be portraying it as.

If you were trying to launch a professional career on 400 euro I would say you need to have your head examined. You need to be aware that a good roll for 1/2 is probably somewhere in the 10k region for a professional. If you dont care about the 400 (and thats the critical thing, you have to not care if it all goes in the one evening) then ok, take a shot. I would recommend spinning it up online first but like I said above, its not like you are threatening to interfere with dogs or anything.

DeV.

badbeatcentral

Depends what you're comfortable doing, if op is new to online then he should stick to one until he can quickly pick up on oppo's betting patterns & playing style, then move to more.

As far as not taking it seriously if it's €10 of a €400 BR then I don't see why he wouldn't be taking it seriously.

Theresalwaysone

DeVore wrote:

400 is what a half decently rolled player would put in their pocket for a night at 1/2. I usually bring 500 come to think of it, and thats STILL shortish.

If you dont care about the 400 in terms of rent , food etc (ie: it is additional to your needs) then perhaps bring 200 of it to the 1/2 game, or all of it and play it, 200 at a time.

As for the smart arsed, help-free comments, they are mistaken.

400 is not his "roll" for the entire of his life, nor is he attempting to live from poker. He doesnt need to make the rent and there is no risk of "gambler's ruin" here. If variance takes the lot, he saves up again and continues on where he left off. Its not ideal, but its not the unspeakable act people above seem to be portraying it as.

If you were trying to launch a professional career on 400 euro I would say you need to have your head examined. You need to be aware that a good roll for 1/2 is probably somewhere in the 10k region for a professional. If you dont care about the 400 (and thats the critical thing, you have to not care if it all goes in the one evening) then ok, take a shot. I would recommend spinning it up online first but like I said above, its not like you are threatening to interfere with dogs or anything.

DeV.

He wants poker to replace his part time supermarket job. Therefore the option to build it up again is not exactly there. It comes across as if this 400 is what he hopes to use to build a weekly 50euro min profit.

So if this is the case, then the 400quid is really his bankroll and the risk of ruin and having to return to the supermarket is a real threat especially on such a thin roll.

I am not being smart and I dont think I was being smart arsed in my replies. If you really want poker (live poker 1-2) to replace your job, work for a roll of 2k or so and go from there, its still not ideal but its a hellofalot better than 400.

Now if only I could practice what i preach.

DeVore

Ah sorry, I misread that bit, I thought it was in addition to the job.

In short, keep the job... take the 400 and play it if you feel the need but I wouldnt quit the day job. (why do you feel you need to??)

A proper roll for giving up the day job for 1/2 would be 10k imho, thats 20-night buyins.

DeV.

ianmc38

shortstacking like this is a really bad idea for anyone with poker skills greater than a mule, even more so with all the comments on the softness of the game. when i was playing live 1/2 i'd rarely go out with less than 1k in my pocket and access to more if it need be. playing with such a shallow stack pushing a range of something like TT+/AQ+ totally negates any perceived edge you may have over the competition as essentially it restricts your play to preflop and flop as you'll never have enough behind to get it in anywhere else.

Mr.Plough

put it online and shortstack 5/10

if your gona spin, do it properly.

ianmc38

Mr.Plough wrote:

put it online and shortstack 5/10

if your gona spin, do it properly.

nice post.

Lafortezza

Fcuk the begrudgers, go for it. Imagine what could happen.

RedJoker

Hey Jippo.

FWIW I won't be playing live games until I have at least a 4K roll, shortstacking the game or playing underrolled just doesn't appeal to me. Best of luck and hopefully I'll see you in there in a few months.

smoothcall

its not that bad, i used to do this couple of years ago. buyin in short . You just have to play like a complete rock. and get lucky early.

Im not sure of your ability but id prob reckon you have better chance of beating a live game short stacked than an online game properly rolled. As it takes a while to get used to online, and the hardest thing to do online is learn how to cash out.

It depends what you want , if you want to get good at poker, you have to play online. because you can beat a live 1-2 game not havin a breaze about the game. if its purely for cash i stick live. But i defo wouldnt give up the job untill youve got more cash..

gl anyway

LuckyLloyd

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Mr.Plough

seriously though i'd put it online and grind the lower levels until you're rolled properly for live. you can't play properly at 1/2 when in your mind you have to win every pot you enter or else you can't go on the beer that weekend.

pok3rplaya

Yeah go for it, you might lose €400 but sure, you could win MILLIONS!!!

tipp86

Well in smilar position to you just started back in college will try make a few pounds if i can in the macau.I would never dream of buying in for €80 i dont feel its enough there was a time 2 years ago when my buyin used be €50 but these were games where lads just hadnt a clue and would pay you off everytime.I myself will buyin for €150 at least with the same in backup.I think you open yourself up to getting called by drawing hands when you shortstack and you wont get paid off well enough when you hit your big hands like sets etc...I would agree with anyone advising online i think you should try a level like $50 nl and get used to multitabling i would be certain it can pay as well as a supermarket job at the weekend

CaptainNemo

I'm afraid Jippo is down to a €320 roll after last night.

tipp86

Thats just rubbing it in;):D

Jippo

CaptainNemo wrote:

I'm afraid Jippo is down to a €320 roll after last night.

Yes that must be this variance they're talking about!! Second hand; I was there 2 minutes.

I had 10 10 in small blind. Called a raise to 7 from UTG+1. Top Set on 10 9 2 rainbow. Check, call 17.

Turn 8. Bet 20, call.

River 6, no flush. Check, all in, call.

He had nut straight. Did not believe he could hold Q J with raise. Home time!

I'm actually at €540 following first session.

I am so leaving myself open to abuse here!!

I know, I know.

Goodluck2me

CaptainNemo wrote:

I'm afraid Jippo is down to a €320 roll after last night.

uh oh!

Cardshark wrote:

This is a great idea, but I have a better one. Don't play poker.

...or this will happen

CaptainNemo

Jippo wrote:

Yes that must be this variance they're talking about!! Second hand; I was there 2 minutes.

I had 10 10 in small blind. Called a raise to 7 from UTG+1. Top Set on 10 9 2 rainbow. Check, call 17.

Turn 8. Bet 20, call.

River 6, no flush. Check, all in, call.

He had nut straight. Did not believe he could hold Q J with raise. Home time!

Sorry about that! I actually played the hand very badly. When you check/called the flop and bet the turn I presumed you'd made a smaller straight than me so I felt OK to slowplay it. You'd have won a big pot off me if the board had paired on the river.

But yeah that's variance...you flop top set and then some donkey who's raised preflop with QJ offsuit hits a straight against you

LuckyLloyd

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Jippo

CaptainNemo wrote:

Sorry about that! I actually played the hand very badly. When you check/called the flop and bet the turn I presumed you'd made a smaller straight than me so I felt OK to slowplay it. You'd have won a big pot off me if the board had paired on the river.

But yeah that's variance...you flop top set and then some donkey who's raised preflop with QJ offsuit hits a straight against you

No bother. In fairness I take a beat well. Especially since it wasn't really a bad beat.

Jippo

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Re - Raise pre - flop.

Why? Make it 20, he calls (not in this instance perhaps). Overcards on flop, I have to bet. Call I'm in trouble, raise in trouble.

Why reraise here out of position, with 10 10. Make an argument why. Nine times out of ten he's calling a reraise, even with QJo.

CaptainNemo

Jippo wrote:

Why? Make it 20, he calls (not in this instance perhaps). Overcards on flop, I have to bet. Call I'm in trouble, raise in trouble.

Why reraise here out of position, with 10 10. Make an argument why. Nine times out of ten he's calling a reraise, even with QJo.

Depends how big the reraise is. If you reraise to 30, with only 100 or so total in your stack, I'm not calling with QJ. If it's a reraise to only 20 when I've already raised to 7 of course I'm calling.

The reason to reraise (as I see it anyway) is to get more money in the pot when you're probably ahead. That's the same reason you should have been betting or raising on the flop. The fact that in this particular case you probably would have lost anyway is irrelevant to the right way to play the hand. Because you're out of position, but probably ahead, it's correct to try and get as much of your stack as you reasonably can into the middle preflop and on the flop when you KNOW you're ahead.

CaptainNemo

Jippo wrote:

Overcards on flop, I have to bet. Call I'm in trouble, raise in trouble.

1) Overcards may not come on the flop. What's wrong with undercards?
2) Even if overcards come on the flop, I may fold, since I don't necessarily have overcards.
3) You may flop a set. It might even be top set. Then you may win a big pot.

You're envisaging the worst situation for your raise with 10's (multiple overcards on flop, with you out of position). Then you say "I have to bet". This is also not necessarily true. You would have to work out what you think I have.

You also said "Call I'm in trouble, raise I'm in trouble." This isn't necessarily true either. In this hand, for instance, I might have decided to put you all-in on the flop, figuring that my open-ender and 2 overcards are good enough. Then you would have got all the money in when you are holding the nuts and I am a big underdog to win the hand.

I wouldn't reraise here with pocket 10s against all players, but against ME, I definitely would (because my raising range at a short-handed table is very wide) but if you were only at the table 2 minutes you might not have known that.

CaptainNemo

And finally getting back on topic, I think your bankroll is too small for NL cash games, like people are saying. You need to be able to spend multiple buy ins in a session if necessary. If there's some tool at the table with a huge stack, playing terribly, who cleans out your €80 by hitting a 5 outer on the river against you when he's calling you down with middle pair, are you just going to get up and go home? If the answer is yes then you're going to miss out on most of the profit in cash games, and other people are going to win your money from that tool because you don't have the bankroll to buy in again and wait for your moment against him. I often buy in to a 1/2 game with more than your entire bankroll if there are other players sitting there with big stacks.

RoundTower

I think you should play for a while, run hot, run your tank up to 2000 or so, quit your job, run bad, go broke, get the job again, earn 100 a week in the job, take a shot at the game every week with the 100 because you know you can crush it after how well you did before, then back to step 1.

CaptainNemo

RoundTower wrote:

I think you should play for a while, run hot, run your tank up to 2000 or so, quit your job, run bad, go broke, get the job again, earn 100 a week in the job, take a shot at the game every week with the 100 because you know you can crush it after how well you did before, then back to step 1.

Have you been stalking me??

LuckyLloyd

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Jippo

Look as regards bankroll management I know ye are all correct.

What I'm really interested in is how ye take money from a bankroll, that's my real question.

I've seen guys build up a bankroll in a textbook manner, but they're so fine-tuned, I can't see themselves taking a cut. How do players take money from their bankroll?

Busted with set of tens again last night - in fairness he had a gutshot royal flush draw so I make me only a 53%-ish favourite.

€460

Imposter

Jippo wrote:

Look as regards bankroll management I know ye are all correct.

What I'm really interested in is how ye take money from a bankroll, that's my real question.

I've seen guys build up a bankroll in a textbook manner, but they're so fine-tuned, I can't see themselves taking a cut. How do players take money from their bankroll?

Busted with set of tens again last night - in fairness he had a gutshot royal flush draw so I make me only a 53%-ish favourite.

€460

People set themselves limits/targets and then withdraw. For a pro they should withdraw X amount every month and then maybe more if they make more than they expect. For those building a bankroll they might decide to play 1/2 when they reach 4k of a bankroll. Then when the bankroll gets to say 6k they withdraw 1k. Basically get the bankroll up to a level that is comfortable for a level after withdrawing and then make a withdrawal leaving yourself at the same level. If you leave it until it is almost enough to play the next level then psychologically it is hard to withdraw as you want to play the next level. If you do it when you have too little to play the level then you won't want to drop back a level.

AdMMM

I roughly take about 50% of my winnings every week as my cut, and leave the other 50% is left in to help me move up through the levels, but then again I'm properly rolled for my level. It's harder to take a cut from your winnings when you aren't properly rolled and can lose it all in one session. Like everyone else here, I would recommend you keep your job and play at lower stakes online until you are adequately rolled for 1/2.

Juan Pablo

RoundTower wrote:

I think you should play for a while, run hot, run your tank up to 2000 or so, quit your job, run bad, go broke, get the job again, earn 100 a week in the job, take a shot at the game every week with the 100 because you know you can crush it after how well you did before, then back to step 1.

Your choice of game for this should be 5/10 PLO, obv

tipp86

I saw that and again you were unlucky but i just dont believe you can make money cashing in that amount.I had to cash in more than your bankroll in order to make a nice profit last night if i was cashing in €80 i would be down 2-3 buyins and when i did make hands i would just about have broke even.I would advise trying tournaments maybe some of the students ones as there is a very poor standard and i believe your game would be well suited to going deep maybe this would be a better way of making a bit of money.
In a earlier comment you said that you did not believe he would have called a raise with QJ i have seen a lot worse hands calling €20 in cash games like that any 2 cards is possible in games like this.

Jippo

tipp86 wrote:

I saw that and again you were unlucky but i just dont believe you can make money cashing in that amount.I had to cash in more than your bankroll in order to make a nice profit last night if i was cashing in €80 i would be down 2-3 buyins and when i did make hands i would just about have broke even.I would advise trying tournaments maybe some of the students ones as there is a very poor standard and i believe your game would be well suited to going deep maybe this would be a better way of making a bit of money.
In a earlier comment you said that you did not believe he would have called a raise with QJ i have seen a lot worse hands calling €20 in cash games like that any 2 cards is possible in games like this.

I agree with you but I'm going to stick with this; I must have been very lucky in the past but I usually, i.e. more than half the time, leave the place with a profit.

Actually I said I would believe he would call a raise with QJ; I didn't believe he would make the raise in the first place.

I'm not too bad at cash games but I am a terrible tournament player. The element of luck in tournaments is very great - this might sound like bull**** from someone underrolling shortstacked. We'll see how it goes tonight. If I get busted again I don't mind - the initial €400 is spare really, I'm not that stuck for money, it's not as if I'm going to starve without a good run, I give grinds too and I have a grant and I have three weeks wages to come. I live with family in Cork with no accomodation or food costs - this is just an experiment, to see if it'll work.

LuckyLloyd

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