back squats are they really the best option?

justsomebloke

Ok this is basically coming from noticing a few things in the gym.

So my question is, for a beginner are back squats always the best option to start off with.

Quite often I see a few people starting off with back squats or people being shown there beginner programmes by an instructor doing back squats yet they don't seem to have adequate core strength or technique to do them properly, so their backs are all over the place and you, yet they just carry on or the instructor will just get them to continue in the hope that over time form will improve.

So my question is would front squatting or dumbell squatting (with the dumbells being held with palms facing in at should height, i.e. initial position of a dumbell thruster). Generally with these lifts I think alot of people feel that the movement is slightly more natural and easier to maintain good form and can get use to the movement and then move on to back squatting.

So what do other people think

Hanley

For the first month they might not be a great option.

Personally I think that time would be better spent doing things like Lunges, RDLs, leg presses, leg curls and all that jazz, also targeted core work to bring up the muscles that allow a person to squat.

Without constant feedback from someone with a good eye, it's very easy to fall into bad habits when squatting so in that regard, unless you've someone experienced with you, can video your workouts or have good kinestic awareness squats may or may not be a great choice when you're getting started.

In my opinion anyway.

Vegeta

I must get a video of myself doing squats up as I am doing them at home and have no-one to say "Hey you are going to ruin your back if you keep doing those like that"

I have a sh1t back anyway. If I walk around town or stand for any long period of time my lower back is in bits.

Any tips for that acutally

cowzerp

i never give squats untill the trainee's legs are used to working as is there back muscles and overall core area, usually 3rd program or more depending on clients progression..then they are the best weight exercise there is.

justsomebloke

cowzerp wrote:

i never give squats untill the trainee's legs are used to working as is there back muscles and overall core area, usually 3rd program or more depending on clients progression..then they are the best weight exercise there is.

but do you not think that getting them to start even with free squatting or light dumbell squats earlier maybe better then leaving it till maybe they can do back squats?

cowzerp

jsb wrote:

but do you not think that getting them to start even with free squatting or light dumbell squats earlier maybe better then leaving it till maybe they can do back squats?

no because back squatting is the safest type of squat training , it could be done with a fitball to learn the movement and use the muscles, leg press will work the same muscles and are ideal for the untrained, when squats start they should be light to moderate till technique and strenght is up to scratch..

rubadub

Couldnt they just do some work with an empty bar, not even a 20kg oly bar, but a light one. I have no rack and just squat what I can get over my head- which is only 60kg, I do 20 reps, nice & slow. I cannot manage front squats, and dumbell squats used to work but I would be using 10kg plates that just get in the way.

I would like to have a rack but with the lower weight I feel fairly safe, and reckon my form is pretty good.

justsomebloke

cowzerp wrote:

no because back squatting is the safest type of squat training , it could be done with a fitball to learn the movement and use the muscles, leg press will work the same muscles and are ideal for the untrained, when squats start they should be light to moderate till technique and strenght is up to scratch..

just as a matter of interest why do you say back squats are the safest form of squats and do you have any studies for this (just for my own info).

Also I have never been a fan of getting people to do leg press as a way of getting into squatting. generally people's leg strength is fine however it is the other muscles that cause them to be able to not squat so leg press in my opinion does nothing to address this and if anything exacerbate the problem as it gives people a false sense of how much they could squat.

Also I am not of big fan of going from a swiss ball type box squat to a back squat. I would feel that doing something like goblet squatting would better interim movement and hence I like the dumbell thrusteresque squat good as it basically is in and around the same movement so a goblet squat so gives a person a feel of what weighted squats are

Sleepy

This is a thread I'm following closely as personally, I know my squatting form is pretty poor, seem to round my back a lot.

Is it just a matter of dropping the weight to something that I can bang out for 20 or 30 reps and focusing on technique for a few weeks before moving the weight up to something challenging?

cowzerp

jsb wrote:

just as a matter of interest why do you say back squats are the safest form of squats and do you have any studies for this (just for my own info).

with back squats there bar is positioned straight through your body meaning if done right the pressure is only on the areas intended and its a very natural technique. even with massive weight powerlifters dont get many injuries through squatting and this tells me this is very safe, are you comparing real squats to body weight squats etc? if you are then obviously there safer due to no pressure!
dumbells make technique harder and are mainly an option when the bar is to heavy to lift due to no squat rack..

jsb wrote:

Also I have never been a fan of getting people to do leg press as a way of getting into squatting. generally people's leg strength is fine however it is the other muscles that cause them to be able to not squat so leg press in my opinion does nothing to address this and if anything exacerbate the problem as it gives people a false sense of how much they could squat.

Squats are torture on legs to the untrained trainee, thats why its important to train the same muscles in an easier manner where technique is much easier to do for a beginner,leg press is fine for this, the other core muscles can be used doing all the other basic exercises-chest press, lat pull, ab crunch etc all getting the body used to working.. all will improve a beginner sufficent to prep them for moving onto squats with light to moderate weight.

justsomebloke

cowzerp wrote:

are you comparing real squats to body weight squats etc? if you are then obviously there safer due to no pressure!

no I was comparing back squats to front squats. you said back squats where the safest varient of squat and I was wondering if you had anything I could read stating this

cowzerp wrote:

dumbells make technique harder and are only an option when the bar is to heavy to lift due to no squat rack..

I disgree with this due to the fact that using dumbell's can gives people a more natural position and thus make it easier for people to use as there first experience of weighted squats and can help pin point weakness in their core and also help bring up core strength to the point where they can do back squats. Also they generally rule out flexibilty problems some people have with their shoulders where they can't hold the bar properly on their back.

Just remember I am not disputing that everything should lead onto people being able to do back squats I am just stating that it seems that everyone is started on back squats when for a proportion of people other weight variants of squats maybe more beneficial.

cowzerp wrote:

Squats are torture on legs to the untrained trainee, thats why its important to train the same muscles in an easier manner where technique is much easier to do for a beginner

For this thought could you not just use something like a low chair, well preferably height adjustable (as oppose to a swiss ball, as generally swiss balls are a bit to high I feel) that way people can just sit down and then stand up from it, which is pretty much the squat movement and at certain points maintain height while hovering above the chair and thus fully mimicking the squat movement but still brings in the full complement of complementary muscles that a leg press won't. That and my problem with leg press is that it can give a false sense to people about how much they should start squatting with especially if they don't have the advantage of a trainer which quite a few people in the gym wouldn't

ali.c

Sleepy wrote:

Is it just a matter of dropping the weight to something that I can bang out for 20 or 30 reps and focusing on technique for a few weeks before moving the weight up to something challenging?

I think it depends on what is causing your poor form tbh. My form is really crap too, i lean too far forward (and over arch my back) and cant get any real depth on back squats. On OHS and front squats my form is a bit better, its easier to get the depth and keep my body more upright. The position of the bar makes it impossible to lean as far forward, the problem i have is poor flexibility (which causes me to be unbalanced) and my glutes not getting involved.

As for whether back squats are the safest excercise or not, i think that any excercise executed with poor form is not safe. Ergo if you can not do it with good form and there is an variation you can do with better form then the variation with better form would be IMHO most likely be a safer option.

In my case it is not a strength issue, core or legs that was causing poor form (based on my performance at other excercises) so its seems to me that leg presses and abdominal excercises wouldnt be the solution in my case, whereas mobility and flexibility work seem to be the best solution.

SuprSi

Is doing squats with a barbell in one of those guide type tall frames any good? I'm a beginner and have found that I can do the squats ok with this, but my legs take a really big hit for around a week afterwards - very stiff and quite sore.

Would I be better skipping the squat and doing the leg press for a while, until my legs are more used to it?

justsomebloke

do you have any squat racks or cages in your gym as oppose to the smith machines

amazingemmet

Gonna have to disagree with you on back squats being the safest, back squats have a bigger lever through the lumbar spine cause it to be loaded more then in other squat variations. Not saying they're bad for you just saying there's safer ones from a back health point of view.

Imo people should learn to front squat before they back squat as its an easier movement to get right and its very easy to know if your doing it right by feel.

Also cowzetrp did you mean fitball squat as in the one with the ball between you and the wall?

Sleepy

SuprSi, if you're talking about squatting in a Smith Machine (http://img.alibaba.com/photo/50240145/Smith_Machine_EX.jpg), AFAIK it's not great as it prevents you from using proper form...

SuprSi

Hi Sleepy, that's exactly what I was speaking about. I was under the impression that it might be better for a beginner for some reason but if it's not a good idea I'll move on to free weights. Thanks!

SuprSi

jsb wrote:

do you have any squat racks or cages in your gym as oppose to the smith machines

I'm in Westwood, Leopardstown, so yeah they have some there. I'm guessing that these are the better option?

Hanley

amazingemmet wrote:

Gonna have to disagree with you on back squats being the safest, back squats have a bigger lever through the lumbar spine cause it to be loaded more then in other squat variations.

I was just going to comment on that. I think there's far more stress thru your spine with back squats over front squats. The majority of newbs I see squatting do one of things... squat a mile high, or bend forward excessively to compensate for their lack of depth at the hip. That puts a hell of a lot of pressure on the spine if you don't know what you're doing....

It's almost impossible to do that with fron squats tho cos the bar's just going to tip forward and come off your shoulders/chest if you try to. Plus I've always foudn front squats force me down lower and more upright because of the position of the bar.

I'd say they're "safer" but not more productive for my goals.

cowzerp

Hanley wrote:

It's almost impossible to do that with fron squats tho cos the bar's just going to tip forward and come off your shoulders/chest if you try to. Plus I've always foudn front squats force me down lower and more upright because of the position of the bar.

I'd say they're "safer" but not more productive for my goals.

if you compare like for like-the same weight, front squats are more dangerous and difficult to do, and the dangers are not only on your back but there is more balance issues which can cause way more injuries,.are you comparing like for like? Also i know you squat heavy but have you ever got injured squatting? because i never hear of anyone getting injured performing squats.

Hanley

cowzerp wrote:

if you compare like for like-the same weight, front squats are more dangerous and difficult to do, and the dangers are not only on your back but there is more balance issues which can cause way more injuries,.are you comparing like for like? Also i know you squat heavy but have you ever got injured squatting? because i never hear of anyone getting injured performing squats.

No I'm not comparing front squats and back squats with the same weight. I don't think there's one single person in the world who can front squat more than they can back squat.

Why do you think front squats are more dangerous and difficult?

It would be my view that with front squats, once you have the bar racked on your shoulders all you have to do is sit pretty much straight down and you'll nail form perfectly.

And even if you don't all you have to do is release the bar and bail. Very quick and easy.

Whereas with back squats, if you don't lead with your hips you tend to end up with your knees way forwards and the bar getting out in front of you and ending up with all your weight on your toes.

I've never had any "injury" with any form of squatting. I have picked up lots of niggly stuff but I don't blame that on the movement specifically. More so on the loading parameters and patterns.

That actually does remind me tho, last april one of the lads in the gym hurt himself while warming up on back squats, his form got a big loose and he did some form of damage to his back. He re-habed and used front squats in place of back because of the less pressure it was putting on his back...

BossArky

rubadub wrote:

Couldnt they just do some work with an empty bar, not even a 20kg oly bar, but a light one

When I started squatting about March 2006 I managed to pull a muscle in my back with just a 20kg bar. Be careful anyone who is starting off. Obviously I didn't have a clue what I was doing and probably had terrible form.

cowzerp

Hanley wrote:

No I'm not comparing front squats and back squats with the same weight. I don't think there's one single person in the world who can front squat more than they can back squat.

Why do you think front squats are more dangerous and difficult?

if not comparing like for like then its pointless-thats like me saying(leg press is safer but i only us 20kg on it) compared to 60kg squatting!
who front squats anyway? i never see anyone doing it and have hated it since college due to how unnatural it feels.simple answer-i feel off balance doing front squats.

pwd

My friend hurt his back quite badly while squatting. I think it was one of the first times he tried doing them.
I saw him do it. He used a weight that was too heavy for him and rounded his back very noticeably on the way up.
I think it gave him trouble for a good while after that.

Hanley

cowzerp wrote:

if not comparing like for like then its pointless-thats like me saying(leg press is safer but i only us 20kg on it) compared to 60kg squatting!
who front squats anyway? i never see anyone doing it and have hated it since college due to how unnatural it feels.simple answer-i feel off balance doing front squats.

Who front squats? Pretty much every weightlifter in the world. Bodybuilders. Powerlifters. Fans of Crossfit. Need I go on?

How many people in the average gym do you see doing a GOOD backsquat? Probably about as many as you see front squatting. Moot point imo.

A leg press and squat of any form is incomparable because they're so different. A more fitting comparison would be a dumbbell bench and barbell bench, they're similar movements, employing the same muscles, but different enough to be distinguished by name.

An increase in barbell benching should see and increase in your dumbbell strength, and an increase in dumbbell strength will generally carry over to barbell strength. In much the same way as squat and front squat number increases are usually correlated.

Is the primary reason you don't like front squats as an exercise for everybody because you feel off balance and uncomfortable when you do them?

Are you doing them clean grip or arms crossed?? Clean feels VERY natural to me, whereas I hate the arms crossed version.

Hanley

pwd wrote:

My friend hurt his back quite badly while squatting. I think it was one of the first times he tried doing them.
I saw him do it. He used a weight that was too heavy for him and rounded his back very noticeably on the way up.
I think it gave him trouble for a good while after that.

In my opinion this is not the fault of squatting. It's your friends fault for attempting a weight he couldn't safely handle on an exercise he's unfaimliar with.

You face injury with every exercise you attempt if you're not proficient with it and attempt a weight that you're not capable of maintaing good form with.

cowzerp

Hanley wrote:

Who front squats? Pretty much every weightlifter in the world. Bodybuilders. Powerlifters. Fans of Crossfit. Need I go on?

How many people in the average gym do you see doing a GOOD backsquat? Probably about as many as you see front squatting. Moot point imo.

Is the primary reason you don't like front squats as an exercise for everybody because you feel off balance and uncomfortable when you do them?

i never see anyone do front squats! never.
my clients squat correct but your right most people dont-thats because they see the strong guy do them and try and copy without instruction, and they try to match the strong guys weight!!

i dont see the benefit to front squats (less weight therefore less benefits) unless you've an injured upper spine and in this case i would not reccomend squats at all, i've tried both grips and agree on the more comfortable but i still dont like it for the reasons above.
i'd prefer normal squats, deadlifts, lunges ,stiff leg deads than the front squat.

amazingemmet

Personally I prefer front squats to back squats and haven't back squated in over a year at this stage and match that with hamstring accessory work.

I think for anyone who trains to be an athelte front squats are defintely something that should be on the menu, bigger rom, challenges both upper and lower body flexibility got a nicer movement pattern, harder to cheat on....

also on the discomfort thing remember what it was like to back squat when you started hurt the traps and neck but then you got used to it and it feels comfortable same with front squats.

hardtrainer

In my opinion, the only way to train to squat effectively is to squat. Simple as that. I think it's important for beginners to start off squatting without any weight, with a mirror to the side of them so that they can guage how deep they're squatting and watch their form and get a good feel for the movement. Then they can move to light squatting with just a barbell and then start adding weight.
The top form errors I see in the gym are people not squatting deep at all, and by deep I mean until thighs are at least parallel to the floor. Deeper than that is great if you can do it, but it's not essential. I have knee issues that act up if I go very deep with heavy weights. Rounding the back is the other major error guys make. Thats another reason why squatting without weight is important and the mirror is important so that they can see a good arch in their lower back and feel what that feels like too. The other common error is leaning too far forward, either upper body or knees, which leads to instability.

Personally, I prefer back squats to front squats because I can go heavier with back squats and I get more from that I feel. I still do front squats to mix things up a bit and the ROM is definitely greater (for me because of the lower weight and less niggles with my knees) and thats good from time to time.

Leg press is not a good exercise to prepare for squats. Squatting may seem like a leg exercise, but its a whole body exercise and really it's hitting the core. The best way to improve your squat and increase weights is to work on core strength.

King of Kings

hardtrainer wrote:

In my opinion, the only way to train to squat effectively is to squat. Simple as that. .

dude - you said exactly what i wanted to say.

Beginners might as well learn from the start as it's a crucial exercise (imo). Like all exercises if you don't know ask.
If you've nobody to ask - Percision Nutrition have a great video database for 100's of exercises.
personally I believe the back squat to be the most benefical leg exercise(not to mention the other bens like core etc.,..) and all newbies should try this before leg press etc...
I would have thought (again IMO) that all beginners should start on compound lifts...ie. DL, Bench, Squat being the most important.

I don't think a weak core etc...with hinder a person start to sqaut at a low weight.

Tbh - i think most folk (in my gym TF:Coolock) are too scared of the squat cos it's too hard and they leg press themselves to death cos it look cool pressing all that heavy weight and it's not as strenious as the bad sqaut.

rubadub

hardtrainer wrote:

In my opinion, the only way to train to squat effectively is to squat. Simple as that.

Yes, thats what I was getting at saying use an empty bar or stick. An oly bar is 20kg and that can be a lot beginning, someone earlier mentioned getting unjured with only a empty oly bar. I do body squats in the morning and it helps you get used to the balance. I have no rack and can only get 60kg on my back, others recommended front squats but that is even harder to get up.

I think these might be better for me since my weight is restricted.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBSingleLegSplitSquat.html

or these http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBLunge.html

Has anybody tips on keeping the back straight, is there anything you could wear so you could feel it is being kept straight? I am thinking a tight tshirt with a plastic rod sewn in or something.

I have started deadlifts again but am still worried for my back, was able to do 100kg easy enough, so I feel my squat should be way more than 60kg. Are those split squats I posted equivalent to a lot more.

e.g. if somebody can do a normal back squat of 100kg, what would you reckon they could manage on a split squat or lunge?

ali.c

rubadub wrote:

Has anybody tips on keeping the back straight, is there anything you could wear so you could feel it is being kept straight? I am thinking a tight tshirt with a plastic rod sewn in or something.

I try and use a mirror, tbh i am not very kinaesthically aware so i think my back is straight when in reality its far from straight, a mirror is a good feedback tool.

Do you lean foward doing bodyweight squats?? I find that doing them OHS with a broomstick or even just with my hands above my head keeps my back more upright.

Any reason you are worried about your back? I use OHS and overhead lunges because they really work my core muscles and my balance. Also my legs are disportionally developed wrt to the rest of my body so i dont mind keeping the weight relatively low.

rubadub

ali.c wrote:

I try and use a mirror,

Yeah same here, I think I have OK form, just want to be certain all the time. I can sometimes loose focus on the back- a rod on my back might keep me concious of it

ali.c wrote:

Do you lean foward doing bodyweight squats?? I find that doing them OHS with a broomstick or even just with my hands above my head keeps my back more upright.

I used to do it hands in front, now I usually hold my hands up gripping an imaginary bar.

ali.c wrote:

Any reason you are worried about your back?

I think it is just my mothers voice ringing in my ears!! If I went to lift a bag of sugar off a table she would be saying "OH JESUS watch your back!!!!"

I am just concerned about injuries, nearly all my mates who do any sport have all sorts of injuries. I prefer bodyweight exercises since if I go to failure you usually will fail in a safe way, benching, squat and deadlifts are relatively more dangerous (I said relatively before people tell me they are perfectly safe). I am not in a gym so have no spotter or racks.

ali.c

rubadub wrote:

I think it is just my mothers voice ringing in my ears!! If I went to lift a bag of sugar off a table she would be saying "OH JESUS watch your back!!!!"

ROFL, my mam is like that too, god it was funny when she was uber concerned about my lifting a 20kilo bag of flour. In my head it was like phew thank god she doesnt know what i do in the gym lol

rubadub wrote:

I am just concerned about injuries, nearly all my mates who do any sport have all sorts of injuries. I prefer bodyweight exercises since if I go to failure you usually will fail in a safe way, benching, squat and deadlifts are relatively more dangerous (I said relatively before people tell me they are perfectly safe). I am not in a gym so have no spotter or racks.

Squat wise have you considered pistols, they are apparantely good for improving your form and are a great body weigth excercise. I say apparantley as i cant do them (yet!!! ) http://www.powerathletesmag.com/pages/pistols.htm

rubadub

god she doesnt know what i do in the gym lol

yep, I collect them at the airport and she always insists I lift one suitcase at a time, once I told her I usually lift 10 times that weight, then had to tell her I was joking cause she went mental!

ali.c wrote:

Squat wise have you considered pistols, they are apparantely good for improving your form and are a great body weigth excercise. I say apparantley as i cant do them (yet!!! ) http://www.powerathletesmag.com/pages/pistols.htm

I tried them before but am brutal at them, cannot balance at all. It looks like some sort of drunk test a cop would have you do at the side of the road!

BossArky

ali.c wrote:

I use OHS and overhead lunges because they really work my core muscles and my balance.

Overhead lunges look interesting. Must try them out.

Hanley

I think that unless you've had to teach someone how to squat it's hard to grasp how difficult it can be. It's even worse when the person's realy dedicated because you're constantly trying to hold them back and bring it along slowly to avoid issues (FTR I'd rather train with someone who I constantly have to hold back from pushing too hard than someone who's afraid of work).

In this regard, for a "mental" standpoint it can be neccessary to use alternatives to squats (while still teaching the lift with an empty bar) to help the person feel they're still doing something.

I'm a firm believer that an increase in the leg press WILL carry over to squats, but only if the core is up to the task of handling the extra load. It's for that reason that I believe core work is uber important when it comes to teaching people how to squat.

If you're learning to squat should you look at it as a movement to increase mass and strength and try to up the weight from week to week? Hell no in my opinion. You're wasting your time trying to show someone the nuances of squatting if they're afraid of getting stapled to the floor. The first 3-6 weeks (or how ever long it takes) should be spent learning the form, correcting errors etc. I also think it's better to teach the squat with low reps and high sets, 5-8x3 or something liek that. I've seen alot of people get very sloppy when they do higher reps.

Hell, I'm squatting 3 years and I'm STILL working on learning the lift properly. You never really stop learning how to squat. Show me someone who thinks they know it all, and I'll show you someone who isn't as strong as they could be.

rubadub

Hanley wrote:

In this regard, for a "mental" standpoint it can be neccessary to use alternatives to squats (while still teaching the lift with an empty bar) to help the person feel they're still doing something.

That is true, perhaps use the empty bar squats as a warmup before the other work, I always do body squats to warm up before weighted ones.

Could you please give your opinion on my question -if somebody can do a normal back squat of 100kg, what would you reckon they could manage on a split squat or lunge?

I have no rack and no plans to get one so want to do the best equivalent with what I have- which is pretty much just a bar, dumbbells & a bench. I do have a leg extension thing on the bench but rarely use it.

Hanley

Ehhh....I have no idea.

I know I was only able to knock out 3x10 with 20kg 'bells when Iwas doing split squats a few months ago. THat was right at the end of a session with 160+kg squats and 350kg leg presses tho so I wiped.

They really nail your glutes if you sit back and down into em.

Just give em a shot and see what ya can manage. Work from there and try to increase is over time. I'd try split squats before lunges, personally.

rubadub

Hanley wrote:

I know I was only able to knock out 3x10 with 20kg 'bells when Iwas doing split squats a few months ago. THat was right at the end of a session with 160+kg squats and 350kg leg presses tho so I wiped.

Cheers, thats a pretty big drop, I will try them with a very light weight first and build up so. A big difference in the weight used helps me, I would prefer working with DBs as it is easier to drop them if I get in difficulty. I have enough 5kg plates to make up 20kg on each side, so should last a while. I thought I would have to be using 10kg plates which get in the way, 5kg are OK though.

Splits with the DB will be fine for me, I worried about balance but with DBs you have a much lower centre of gravity- and again if I go off balance I just drop them.