German Ambassador was right!

axer

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lost-in-translation----envoy-refuses-to-back-down-over-remarks-1082350.html

What is wrong with what the German Amabassador said about Ireland? He was 100% right and said it as it is. He should not apologise for his comments.

The Irish government told Germany's ambassador to Ireland that comments he made about the nation were ``inaccurate, misinformed and inappropriate,'' the Department of Foreign Affairs said in a statement.

I think the Department of Foreign Affairs is being a bit touchy on the subject.

Nuttzz

he is right, we should still dance at the crossroads and live off spuds...

El Stuntman

I like his style

although I'd be interested to see what what would happen if the Irish ambassador made a speech in Berlin describing his hosts as "humourless automatons who prance around in psuedo-sadomasoschistic leather outfits slapping each other arses"

at least it would make diplomatic events much more fun

faceman

There have been more articles on this aside from the trashy indo today. here's one that gives better detail.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2469335.ece

Axer wrote:

What is wrong with what the German Amabassador said about Ireland? He was 100% right and said it as it is. He should not apologise for his comments.

Are you being serious? So do you think that the majority of people in this country drives 06/07 cars? Do you believe that our junior ministers are paid more than the german chancellor? Do you believe that german medical consultants would be happy with a salary a 3rd of what irish consultants are paid?

Our german friend went on to comment on the traffic problems with dublin. Wow, dublin has traffic problems? we must be the only capital city in the world with traffic problems. Germany doesnt have traffic problems then? Its a pointless statement. What he should have commented on was the lack of public transport.

He was speaking to an audience of investors/potential investors. Lets not forget that without investment in our country, he cant afford to build roads/hospitals hire doctors etc. We need investment. Applauding a very poor tabloid speech that did not allow for Q&A or debate is nothing to be proud of.

El Stuntman

I think it's a pity he didn't speculate on what would happen to a German Chancellor who accepted large sums of money, in cash, from businessmen while a serving Minister for Finance

that would have been interesting

Nevyn

axer wrote:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lost-in-translation----envoy-refuses-to-back-down-over-remarks-1082350.html

What is wrong with what the German Amabassador said about Ireland? He was 100% right and said it as it is. He should not apologise for his comments.

I think the Department of Foreign Affairs is being a bit touchy on the subject.

It is bad form and inexcusable conduct by the official representative of the germany government esp here in this country.

He should be dismissed and his ambassadorial papers returned to his government.

El Stuntman

Thaedydal wrote:

He should be dismissed and his ambassadorial papers returned to his government.

is that not going a bit far? Does that mean that no diplomat here can never say anything we deem offensive?

does that mean our man in Washington could never criticise US culture?

Fratton Fred

it's bad form alright, I guess the Diplomatic corp in Germany is not very diplomatic :rolleyes:

If it was an Irish business leader standing up and saying those things though, they would be a hero.

axer

faceman wrote:

There have been more articles on this aside from the trashy indo today. here's one that gives better detail.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2469335.ece



Are you being serious? So do you think that the majority of people in this country drives 06/07 cars? Do you believe that our junior ministers are paid more than the german chancellor? Do you believe that german medical consultants would be happy with a salary a 3rd of what irish consultants are paid?

Our german friend went on to comment on the traffic problems with dublin. Wow, dublin has traffic problems? we must be the only capital city in the world with traffic problems. Germany doesnt have traffic problems then? Its a pointless statement. What he should have commented on was the lack of public transport.

He was speaking to an audience of investors/potential investors. Lets not forget that without investment in our country, he cant afford to build roads/hospitals hire doctors etc. We need investment. Applauding a very poor tabloid speech that did not allow for Q&A or debate is nothing to be proud of.

I think most people are missing the point of the thing. He was pointing out that Ireland has mis-managed its wealth. We have had a lot of wealth in the last number of years but yet our basic services are crap. Our transport infrastructure is no good. Our health service is in chaos.

Instead on realising that we have mis-managed our wealth we instead nitpick and say that the ambassador was "inaccurate [and] misinformed".

digitally-yours

axer wrote:

I think most people are missing the point of the thing. He was pointing out that Ireland has mis-managed its wealth. We have had a lot of wealth in the last number of years but yet our basic services are crap. Our transport infrastructure is no good. Our health service is in chaos.

Instead on realising that we have mis-managed our wealth we instead nitpick and say that the ambassador was "inaccurate [and] misinformed".

I agree with you.

but most of the people get emotionally charged and they just jump to wacky conclusions and etc etc

I would say

is he entitled to his opinion ? yes

Do WEST support free speech ? yes

or do we support only speech which is music to our ears ? decide your self!

Double Standards !

Fratton Fred

nice diversionary tactics by the govenrnment?

layke

The truth hurts and at least he had the gonads to stand up and say it rather then the legion of yes-men we have here. We have squandered our wealth and I have no idea where the future will bring us.

No Apology neccissary pal, tell it like it is. I wish I could email him with a letter of support.

axer

layke wrote:

I wish I could email him with a letter of support.

Your wish is granted.

purple'n'gold

Whether one agrees with what the German ambassador said is neither here nor there. The fact is he is the ambassador to this country from Germany, a country we have always had excellent relations with. He was way out of order with his comments and I would not be in the least surprised if he was quietly shifted someplace else.

axer

purplengold wrote:

He was way out of order with his comments

Why?

musiknonstop

I agree with the ambassador. We are a "coarse" society. Gardai are investigating 4 murders after the weekend.

Nevyn

Because this remarks are seen as the germany government slagging off and taking this country to taslk which is so not the done thing.

There are proceedure and protocals and he broke both nevermind good manners at an event at which he was a guest speaker.

Lemming

There are certain niceities that are expected of ambassadorial relations (excluding the obvious instances where relations do not exist, e.g. USA & Iran).

As much as there may have been a grain of truth behind some of what the ambassador said, there was also misrepresentive and damaging sh*t behind the rest of it. The cynic in me can't help but feel the ambassador was dissuading his countrymen so that they might instead put their money inside Germany ....

scorzny

layke wrote:

The truth hurts and at least he had the gonads to stand up and say it rather then the legion of yes-men we have here. We have squandered our wealth.......

Completely aggree.
Why are so many people up in arms??
Most seem to fail to pick up on the points he's making and instead see it as a blatant attack against our country and our people that must be retaliated against at once.
What part of his speech was SO wrong?
I think his defense was a good one 'I use this to get the listeners' attention and to induce them to participate in the question', which if truly was his intention, flawlessly german !!!

Lemming

scorzny wrote:

What part of his speech was SO wrong?

Well put it this way. What part of his speech was SO right, exactly?

I think his defense was a good one 'I use this to get the listeners' attention and to induce them to participate in the question', which if truly was his intention, flawlessly german !!!

Pretty poor defense actually since there was no Q&A afforded, thus there was no ability for those present to query for further elaboration.

So not flawlessly german, but blindingly pig-stupid.

TerryTate

I think he was amazingly accurate, I ddint realise that the rest of europe had noticed how we have become the new English Snobs, and how it is not really a "hundred thousand welcomes" but "gotta keep up with the jones, at all cost", classy nation.

scorzny

Lemming wrote:

Well put it this way. What part of his speech was SO right, exactly?
So not flawlessly german, but blindingly pig-stupid.

That's a bit harsh, many of his points I thought were valid!!
heres some of them I thought were SO right!

'comparably few cars to be seen with the first digit 9'..........TRUE
lets be honest there's a plethora of brand new mercs and bmws on our roads.

''chaotic" hospital waiting lists................TRUE
That must be a fact, even our own politicans (fianna fail or opposition) are always ranting on about it.

'It is well known that more than a few senior doctors in German hospitals would be happy to earn one third of the stated amount'.
I'm not going to label this point true or false, all I'll say is I think the guy probably knows more about his health system and pay rates than anyone on boards.ie

And regarding

Pretty poor defense actually since there was no Q&A afforded, thus there was no ability for those present to query for further elaboration.

That he admitted to being his one 'mistake'...where's the problem now?

stovelid

I have to admit that the story about the 93*(?) car was very funny.

Also he was spot on re: the hospital consultants.

bugler

I'd like to lend my support to the German Ambassador. He has nothing to apologise for. No wonder most politicians are bland and dull, look at the reactions of the precious to a bit of plain speaking. It's so sad your dainty ears were offended by remarks you didn't like.

Ireland is going through standard nouveau-rich delusions. In a few years time we might have our priorities right. Mind you, Consultants are referring to €200,000 as Mickey Mouse money because the country can be obnoxiously expensive to live in. If you want to buy a nice house in Ireland you need a very good wage. We lost the run of ourselves and now we don't want it to be pointed out.

Nevyn

wow you lot really don't get it do you ?

stovelid

bugler wrote:

IConsultants are referring to €200,000 as Mickey Mouse money because the country can be obnoxiously expensive to live in.

I would be willing to take part in a reality experiment, trying to make €200K stretch for a year.

Admittedly, it would be hard but I would enjoy the sacrifice.

bowsie casey

musiknonstop wrote:

I agree with the ambassador. We are a "coarse" society. Gardai are investigating 4 murders after the weekend.

I agree. I think he only articulated what a lot of people feel....good on him I say!

bugler

Thaedydal wrote:

wow you lot really don't get it do you ?

Yes, we know. He's an Ambassador. He shouldn't be saying these things, he is a mouth-piece of the German state. Possibly, we could end up at war over this. And you don't want to fight the Germans.

Pull the rods out, folks.

Lemming

scorzny wrote:

That's a bit harsh, many of his points I thought were valid!!
heres some of them I thought were SO right!

There's a world of difference between having a grain of truth and being "valid".

'comparably few cars to be seen with the first digit 9'..........TRUE
lets be honest there's a plethora of brand new mercs and bmws on our roads.

Really? Tell you what, go drive down an Autobahn and tell me how long it takes before you stop counting the number of mercs and bmws, ferraris, porsches, and lambourginis that you see .....

As for the number of cars with the first digit being 9, since the ambassador is probably strutting his stuff in D4 that'd be par for the bloody obvious course .... He's coming off less intelligent and more thick with each passing moment I think about it. Take alook on autotrader.ie or carzone.ie and you'll find a lot of cars with 9 prefixs up for sale.

Oh, and the last '9' car is now 8 years old. Now, for the revelation bit .... *drum roll' .... those of you with weak bladders may want to sit down for this ... the numbers of '9' cars on the road are only getting smaller.

''chaotic" hospital waiting lists................TRUE
That must be a fact, even our own politicans (fianna fail or opposition) are always ranting on about it.

No argument there

'It is well known that more than a few senior doctors in German hospitals would be happy to earn one third of the stated amount'.
I'm not going to label this point true or false, all I'll say is I think the guy probably knows more about his health system and pay rates than anyone on boards.ie

More than a few eh? how many exactly? And are these senior doctors? or consultants? The problem in the irish system is with consultants who've been allowed run themselves for far too long, not the rank and file doctors.

That he admitted to being his one 'mistake'...where's the problem now?

Well, pretty big mistake since it means that his "exaggerations" have been allowed pass as "fact" and have now landed him in the middle of a diplomatic spat for no other reason than he was too thick to think ahead of what he said.

faceman

scorzny wrote:

That's a bit harsh, many of his points I thought were valid!!
heres some of them I thought were SO right!

'comparably few cars to be seen with the first digit 9'..........TRUE
lets be honest there's a plethora of brand new mercs and bmws on our roads.

has anyone got any stats to prove this is correct? Bare in mind that businesses that provide company cars would fall into this category and do not keep cars older than 3 years (this is the same in most countries.) the individuals who drive the cars dont own them.

wrote:

''chaotic" hospital waiting lists................TRUE
That must be a fact, even our own politicans (fianna fail or opposition) are always ranting on about it.

true, but this is no secret. we need more investment in our health service. How do we invest more? Well, more foreign investment in ireland will help boost tax receipts and thus increase the spending power of the government. the ambassadors audience were investors. What really is his point? He knows what it takes to put the health service back on form.

wrote:

'It is well known that more than a few senior doctors in German hospitals would be happy to earn one third of the stated amount'.
I'm not going to label this point true or false, all I'll say is I think the guy probably knows more about his health system and pay rates than anyone on boards.ie

I dont know the goin rate for a medical consultant in germany but a third of what is paid here is not accurate. Given the ambassador reckons our junior ministers are paid more than the german chancellor, i certainly take his comment with a pinch of salt.

Its worth pointing out that emmigration of medical personnel from germany is rather high. Germany was recognised at one stage of having a surplus of 6,000 medical consultants. That obviously going to influence salarys. Therefore we're not comparing like with like.

wrote:

And regarding

That he admitted to being his one 'mistake'...where's the problem now?

quite a massive mistake to make particular when he knew he was going to controversial. He's an ambassador, and likewise is expected to provide more detailed points and less sensationlised tabloid statements.

mjquinno

"It would be like me starting off with the sinking of the Lusitania, going on to Stalingrad and then the Third Reich and giving that as a sort of potted history of the success of Germany," Mr Mitchell said of events during the two world wars.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0917/breaking65.htm

Country isnt perfect and everyone is allowed there opinion but i think gay put that opinion in context. Im not fine gale supporter before you start

stovelid

bugler wrote:

Yes, we know. He's an Ambassador. He shouldn't be saying these things, he is a mouth-piece of the German state. Possibly, we could end up at war over this. And you don't want to fight the Germans.

Pull the rods out, folks.

Yes but what if a large business delegation are going to decide on whether or not they invest millions of Euro in the country purely on the basis of a few jocular remarks from an ambassador?*



*not

meglome

Well as others have pointed out there is a lot of truth in what he said. The issue I have is his job is diplomatic relations between Ireland and Germany. This wasn't very diplomatic and I wonder if you stood up in Germany and pointed out their flaws what the reaction would be, you might have a bunch of neo-nazis trying to do you in. At the end of the day he's a politician so you'd have to wonder what his agenda is. He was talking to German businessmen and Ireland is a good place for business so why put them off? It wasn't a funny speech as far as I can tell and it had little to do with business so what was the point?

digitally-yours

bugler wrote:

Yes, we know. He's an Ambassador. He shouldn't be saying these things, he is a mouth-piece of the German state. Possibly, we could end up at war over this. And you don't want to fight the Germans.

Pull the rods out, folks.

Has to be the post of the DAY !

*me thinks french should have been attacked by Iran if they used the same rule .

Calm down Folks calm down ! its very easy to Charge most of the nation.
What that man was speaking was his personal opinion and he is entitled to it like anyone else.

Tabnabs

Here's (part of) his response:

German Ambassador `Regrets' Irish Speech `Misunderstandings'

By Dara Doyle

Sept. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Germany's ambassador to Ireland said he ``regretted any misunderstandings'' arising from remarks he made in a speech that the Irish government called ``inaccurate, misinformed and inappropriate.''

Newspapers including the Irish Times reported yesterday that Ambassador Christian Pauls told a group of German businessmen in Dublin on Sept. 7 that Ireland was a ``coarse place.'' Pauls said in a statement published by the Irish Times today he hadn't used the word ``coarse.''

``At one stage, I said the question being posed in Ireland was whether the new prosperity had made Irish society a rougher, less-caring one,'' Pauls said in the statement, adding that he made the speech in German.

The people he addressed were all members of the German Federation of Buying and Marketing Groups. Pauls said the question-and-answer session that usually followed his speeches at such event didn't take place, so he had ``no possibility to soften the initial impact.''

``For this I apologize,'' he said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aQo.kQyItSC4&refer=germany

Call Me Jimmy

Jesus a lot of ye's are so arrogant that ye's don't even care about attracting foreign business? If this guy said something similar about china he'd be out of that country so fast...

My point being that someone who is paid to maintain good relations between Ireland and Germany has focused on the negatives of the country and thrown out stupid generalisations in the most inappropriate of situations. One can only assume he has alterior motives. Because us supposedly wanting the latest cars would mean we are willing to work hard for them...

Free speech? Wtf has that got to do with this?
So if you're in a business meeting you feel like you should be able to say what you want? Giving a presentation in the boardroom and you can just shout out "bollox" in the middle of it because you have the right to free speech? Of course you can, but don't expect to be employed in the future.

bugler

My point being that someone who is paid to maintain good relations between Ireland and Germany

I think that's a very narrow interpretation of what an Ambassador is for. Should Ambassadors to all countries talk up the country they're in? All the time? What if there are obvious things wrong with the country? What if there Human Rights record is bad? What if they have repressive laws and poor economic policy? Where do you draw the line? You want an Ambassador to be a Yes-Man. To brown-nose Ireland at every juncture. Stop dancing around the point and just say it.

Giving a presentation in the boardroom and you can just shout out "bollox" in the middle of it because you have the right to free speech?

This is so bizarre I don't even know what to say.

Mick86

El Stuntman wrote:

although I'd be interested to see what what would happen if the Irish ambassador made a speech in Berlin describing his hosts as "humourless automatons who prance around in psuedo-sadomasoschistic leather outfits slapping each other arses"

Perhaps we should ask Herr Pauls what his Grandfather was up to in the
1940s.:D

El Stuntman wrote:

is that not going a bit far? Does that mean that no diplomat here can never say anything we deem offensive?

A diplomat by definition should not be offensive. If he is he fails in his mission. Herr Pauls should pack his bags.

El Stuntman wrote:

does that mean our man in Washington could never criticise US culture?

Exactly.

layke wrote:

The truth hurts and at least he had the gonads to stand up and say it rather then the legion of yes-men we have here. We have squandered our wealth and I have no idea where the future will bring us.

It isn't his place to criticise Ireland in public.

scorzny

There's a world of difference between having a grain of truth and being "valid"

fair enough.

Really? Tell you what, go drive down an Autobahn and tell me how long it takes before you stop counting the number of mercs and bmws, ferraris, porsches and lambourginis that you see .....

Those are all german cars(apart from ferraris,they're only over the border though), of course you'll find a lot of them on their roads!!

As for the number of cars with the first digit being 9, since the ambassador is probably strutting his stuff in D4 that'd be par for the bloody obvious course ....

Let me put the record straight, I'm not just talking about the pale, you'll find it all over the country.

Take alook on autotrader.ie or carzone.ie and you'll find a lot of cars with 9 prefixs up for sale.

yea, reinforcing my poin they're considered old and due for an upgrade in this country, I think the ambassador was making the point that germans dont just get a new car because the old one has become unfashionable.

Oh, and the last '9' car is now 8 years old. Now, for the revelation bit .... *drum roll' .... those of you with weak bladders may want to sit down for this ... the numbers of '9' cars on the road are only getting smaller.

no need to be arrogant, I understand that, just as the number of cars on our roads from the '80s are ever dereasing.

More than a few eh? how many exactly? And are these senior doctors? or consultants? The problem in the irish system is with consultants who've been allowed run themselves for far too long, not the rank and file doctors.

Again, 'how many exactly?' what am I meant to say to that? I never pointed the finger at any specific level(especially not the rank and file doctors) in the health system, look at my initial comment, all I said was ...

I think the guy probably knows more about his health system and pay rates than anyone on boards.ie

or at least should know anyway.
As for diplomatic spats, I don't care tbh, I came onto boards to discuss the wasted oppertunity that the ambassador was referring to, not about the fall out or result of his comments diplomatically and forgive me for my indifference...don't reply lashing out at my last point, I'm only trying to keep in line with the thread title.

DeepBlue

axer wrote:

I think most people are missing the point of the thing. He was pointing out that Ireland has mis-managed its wealth. We have had a lot of wealth in the last number of years but yet our basic services are crap. Our transport infrastructure is no good. Our health service is in chaos.

If the recent election proved anything it's that the Irish electorate doesn't care about the health service so long as they can afford their private healthcare insurance.

The German ambassador may have been correct but is it what we expect from a diplomat? However the Government are silly to big making a big public issue of this. Some diplomatic communications behind the scenes would have surely been the better way to go.

El Stuntman

DeepBlue wrote:

However the Government are silly to big making a big public issue of this. Some diplomatic communications behind the scenes would have surely been the better way to go.

when you consider that the only other major news story at the moment concerns Bertie receiving massive amounts of cash in highly dubious circumstances, you can see why the government might prefer to see other lead items in the news....

am I overly cynical?

scorzny

El Stuntman wrote:

am I overly cynical?

Not at all... this is Ireland.:D

Lemming

scorzny wrote:

fair enough.

Those are all german cars(apart from ferraris,they're only over the border though), of course you'll find a lot of them on their roads!!

Really? Porsche and Lambourgini are German cars eh? And in any case, BMW and Mercedes are still not exactly the cheapest cars on the market in Germany either despite being manufactured there ....

And further, to follow your logic, the irish should be condemned for driving ANY cars since we do not have or own automotive industry ....

Let me put the record straight, I'm not just talking about the pale, you'll find it all over the country.

let me put the record straight, the logic flaw can be found all over the country too.

yea, reinforcing my poin they're considered old and due for an upgrade in this country, I think the ambassador was making the point that germans dont just get a new car because the old one has become unfashionable.

Eh ... No. Old cars tend to get replaced because, well, they become old and the cost of maintaining them outstrips their actual value and/or reliability becomes a problem. Add to that, someone astutely pointed out that there are a lot of company cars that are replaced on a relatively frequent basis.

That maxim holds true for Ireland, the UK, German, or timbuck-f*cking-too. So the ambassador was making a point about ... no point.

no need to be arrogant, I understand that, just as the number of cars on our roads from the '80s are ever dereasing.

No, that wasn't being arrogant. That was being blunt and sarcastic.

Again, 'how many exactly?' what am I meant to say to that? I never pointed the finger at any specific level(especially not the rank and file doctors) in the health system, look at my initial comment, all I said was ...

Kind of makes the point of anecdotal evidence being something to take with a pinch of salt then, doesn't it? Also makes for dangerously easy sweeping and innuendo-loaded statements.

As for diplomatic spats, I don't care tbh, I came onto boards to discuss the wasted oppertunity that the ambassador was referring to, not about the fall out or result of his comments diplomatically and forgive me for my indifference...don't reply lashing out at my last point, I'm only trying to keep in line with the thread title.

You post, you put yourself in the firing line of anybody else who posts. Just like I have, so spare us the pitiful bleating about "lashing out".

the ambassador is quite correct in thinking there's a wasted opportunity. It is, however, also not his place to say it, as has been correctly pointed out by others.

axer

Mick86 wrote:

Perhaps we should ask Herr Pauls what his Grandfather was up to in the
1940s.:D

Lets start the racist remarks then, eh!

"He had a go at the medical services, traffic, the Catholic Church, the fact that Irish people have become coarser," Mr Mitchell said.

He was right about each of those points.

* Our medical services are crap for the amount that are invested in them
* Our traffic and transport systems are crap
* The church still has a stronghold on this country
* Irish people have become coarser (although that is not the word he used)

He lives in Ireland thus he is telling German investors what he thinks. What did he say that we don't already know?

Even Gay says there may have been a "nugget of truth" in some of things he said.

The whole junior ministers earning more than the chancellor, about Irish people and new cars etc. was a joke to show that the country has become a rich country but yet the essential services are terrible.

Mick86

axer wrote:

Lets start the racist remarks then, eh!.

Like Herr Pauls did?

El Stuntman

Mick86 wrote:

Like Herr Pauls did?

please explain exactly what was racist about the ambassadors remarks

I hate when people are losing an argument and automatically reach for the racism card

scorzny

Really? Porsche and Lambourgini are German cars eh? And in any case, BMW and Mercedes are still not exactly the cheapest cars on the market in Germany either despite being manufactured there ....

yes.......yes they are german cars, ferdinand porsche set up porsche in stuttgart...a german city where to this day they are made and the company is run from and lambourgini is owned by audi(german in itself) who in turn are owned by volkswagen (who ironically have old ties with porsche). I'm supprised at you, a quick google search could've checked that out!!

not that this is anything to do with the thread but just thought i'd sort it out.

the_syco

The Germans drive old cars, have low wages, a shrinking population of "actual" Germans... and also, don't mention the war. Remember, it's a crime to deny it, but it's also a crime if you talk about it?

Lemming

scorzny wrote:

yes.......yes they are german cars, ferdinand porsche set up porsche in stuttgart...a german city where to this day they are made and the company is run from and lambourgini is owned by audi(german in itself) who in turn are owned by volkswagen (who ironically have old ties with porsche). I'm supprised at you, a quick google search could've checked that out!!

not that this is anything to do with the thread but just thought i'd sort it out.

I'm in work. Hence not checking as to the current ownership of said companies. Regardless, moot point since point that regardless these cars are not exactly cheap in Germany either, and yet you will find masses of them out and about.

here's a small anecdote. I just took a look out a window of where I work (Balally/Dundrum, so hardly a deprived area), overlooking a residential car-park. Plenty of '9-something cars in the mix. I'd say from my initial tally (of what I could actually see) puts a rough number on about some 45-50% of the cars down there being pre-00 with the earliest I can see being 94 (and more than one at that). The car-park is, incidentally, roughly 80/90% occupied and serves a muli-block residential apartment complex so is also not small.

Mick86

El Stuntman wrote:

please explain exactly what was racist about the ambassadors remarks

I hate when people are losing an argument and automatically reach for the racism card

It was axer brought up racism not me.

axer wrote:

Lets start the racist remarks then, eh!

Victor

Sometimes our friends are the ones that have to tell us we are being obnoxious prats.