Fianna Fail 32 county coup?

mike65

So then by hook or buy crook(e) Fianna Fail are marching towards a united Ireland as they announce a takeover of the SDLP (in so many words) by organising in Norn Iron. Mark Durkan seems to be ready for the come-hither look from Bertie and Dermot.

Gerry Adams or more likely his presumed succesors might be turning the air blue at the notion of possibility, nay proberbility of having to do battle with the FF machine across the Island.

No noises yet from the unionsists who may see some advantage in FF and SF going head to head.

Mike.

Mick86

I don't see many people in Northern Ireland voting for a Free State party. Good luck to them.

E92

Some SDLP people would be biased towards Fine Gael, others(the side that believes more in the socialism bit than the Uniting the Island bit) towards Labour. I don't know if this great plan of Bert(really what he is trying to do is to get some attention away from the Mahon tribunal) will achieve its stated aim and that is to reduce the vote the Shinners have in NI. The SDLP have strong links with Fine Gael and Labour as well as Fianna Fáil too.

If it does serve to dilute the Shinner vote, I see nothing wrong with Feel and Fail having a 32 county party(anything that reduces the vote of the Shinners has to be welcomed); actually I see no reason why Fine Gael, Labour don't have 32 county parties, even if they don't stand any candidates in elections and perform a role similar to the NI Tories, it could be useful in terms of money raising for the parties(after all the Shinners have made ue of this fact for years).

My fear is that what would really happen is that the SDLP vote would split between those who want to be part of FF and those who wouldn't, and that would just simply make the Shinners advantage over the SDLP at present even more exaccerbated.

Zambia

I for one would vote for a FF candidate if thay actually attracted the right type of candidates to them.

Fact is I think a lot of the MLA's here simply make grand gestures with little in the way of long term planning and genuine concern for the good of the country, united or divided.

Its not there fault a lot of them have been so busy blowing things up then trying to get things peacefull, running a country was a un-planned event.

The vote seems to split here along the lines of I will vote for the bloke who has the most chance of defeating the bloke I dont like.

Jackie laughlin

Mick,
SF is FF but with threatening noises and a more recent history of violence.


This move would split the SDLP (the real heroes of N.I.) and perhaps induce Labour to return to N.I. Indeed, given that Blair and Ahern did so much damage to the SDLP in favour of SF, I wonder why the SDLP are not more resentful?

flogen

Firstly, Empey has come out against this and suggested that it would destroy the balance only recently acheived.

FF organising in the North would be an interesting one as I see them as a party with policies on the centre-right (like the UUP and DUP) but a constitutional stance of Irish nationalism... an interesting combination!

Should they stand for election in the near future, however, they may find out what SF did this year - what works on your home turf doesn't necessarily work on the other side of the border.

McArmalite

He was the most outspoken stoop when people tried to set up a De Velera FF cumman in Derry a number of years ago. Ofcourse he cited the usual " it'll drive a wedge between the communities" as his excuse. etc John just been true to his british identity. And what about the blueshirts ? I suppose the Ulster unionists would be there natural party of choice across the border, the PD's will probably bed down with their fellow hardline unionists - the DUP

As for Mick and nationalists in the occupied counties voting for 'Free State' parties - have you ever been in the North ? Indeed, since Adams and SF take their seats in Leinster House, surely Northern Nationalists have been already returning a 'Free State' party for a while now ?

Mick86

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Mick,
SF is FF but with threatening noises and a more recent history of violence.

NI republicans won't see it like that. They see FF, biggest party in the country that left them in the lurch in 1922.

Zambia

Mick86 wrote:

NI republicans won't see it like that. They see FF, biggest party in the country that left them in the lurch in 1922.

I reckon if FF promise to sort out water charges 1922 would be all forgiven.

RedPlanet

Fianna Fail didn't formally exist in 1922.
They were founded in 1926.
Aren't free staters all the one colour? (blue... or was that yellow?)

purple'n'gold

"And what about the blueshirts ? I suppose the Ulster unionists would be there natural party of choice across the border, the PD's will probably bed down with their fellow hardline unionists - the DUP"
Have you any idea who the blueshirts were? Read Maurice Manning's book before you make silly statements like that.

Jackie laughlin

The "national question" has been resolved. SF/IRA with some help from others has bombed us into permanent partition and produced spectacularly effective ghettoes within N.I.

It's nonsense to try to place all parties coming into N.I. on some kind of spectrum with Irish unity at one end and integration with Britain at the other. The constitution of Northern Ireland has been settled - agreed by all factions: N.I. is part of the U.K. pending European integration.

The only constitutional reform now worth discussing is the dangerous N.I. parliament with no opposition.

Jigsaw

I thoroughly welcome FF in the North and in principle shall be voting for them at the next opportunity.

More of the same I say.

mike65

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The only constitutional reform now worth discussing is the dangerous N.I. parliament with no opposition.

Sure it was designed to be inclusive. No need for debate or dissent in a 'national government'

The danger is that, everyone having thier feet under the table, no-one will shout stop when they do something really stupid. That said the NI Office still exists. How much longer for is another matter.

Mike.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The "national question" has been resolved. SF/IRA with some help from others has bombed us into permanent partition and produced spectacularly effective ghettoes within N.I.

It's nonsense to try to place all parties coming into N.I. on some kind of spectrum with Irish unity at one end and integration with Britain at the other. The constitution of Northern Ireland has been settled - agreed by all factions: N.I. is part of the U.K. pending European integration.

The only constitutional reform now worth discussing is the dangerous N.I. parliament with no opposition.

Oh dear lord Jackie

1: The question is not settled. Your use of the term SF/IRA proves that.

2: Every party has a stance on every question, its like the have a stance of Immgration or something FF have a right to set up in the North and in the rest of the UK if they so wish.

3: Believe me there will always be an opposition.

4: What ghettos ? I Probably live in one by your standards sorry if we all cant live in the lap of luxury you may be used to. Care to highlight these areas and enlighten me. Because i can guarantee I can name far worse areas in the South.

Jackie laughlin

Zambia232,
My use of the term SF/IRA indicates nothing more than that those organisations have been are still are one.

There are small factions who do not recognise the Stormont parliament but all parties having seats in parliaments in these islands recognise the constitutional position of Stormont. That much is over. The shame is that we had to endure so much slaughter before SF/IRA changed their minds.

I have no objection whatsoever to FF moving into N.I. I merely commented that it would almost certainly mean the end of the SDLP to which Bertie and Blair did so much damage in their wooing of SF/IRA. There is a strong socialist element within the SDLP and these might indeed be liberated by a split.

There may be opposition movements to all sorts of things in N.I. but there is no opposition - by design - in the parliament of N.I.

I think perhaps you misunderstand the word "ghetto". I'm not referring to poverty at all - though the ghettoised areas of N.I. tend to be relatively poor - but to separation, e.g. catholic and protestant areas.

I think you should apologise. You've no reason for thinking that I live in the lap of luxury. For your information, my income is less than the average industrial wage.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Zambia232,
My use of the term SF/IRA indicates nothing more than that those organisations have been are still are one.

Horse crap its an inflammatory term and you know it. Used simply by people to discredit an elected party. I didnt vote for them but i can't simply dismiss the thousands who did. On one hand you applaud the end to violence and on the other spout this reference that try's to keep it going.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I think perhaps you misunderstand the word "ghetto". I'm not referring to poverty at all - though the ghettoised areas of N.I. tend to be relatively poor - but to separation, e.g. catholic and protestant areas.

I think you should apologise. You've no reason for thinking that I live in the lap of luxury. For your information, my income is less than the average industrial wage.

Lets look up ghetto

refers to very high concentrations of people drawn from a particular ethnic or cultural background living in specific parts of an urban area. The term is now commonly associated with notions of deprivation, unemployment and social exclusion.

Historically the Jewish quarter in a Christian city. The first ghetto was est in Rome in 1555 by pope Paul IV. The practice was revived by the Nazis in WWII. Now a densely populated slum area dominated by one racial group.

A section of a city where the Nazis forced all Jews to live. A ghetto was often sealed off with walls, barbed wire and armed guards, preventing people from entering or leaving.

Originally, the section of a European city to which Jews were restricted. Today, commonly defined as a section of a city occupied by members of a minority group who live there because of social restrictions on their residential choice.

Your use of the word ghetto is flawed.

However if you take offence to the use of the term Lap of luxury , I freely retract it with my apologies.

Senator

As a northerner, I would welcome ALL the southern parties organising here and presenting themselves and their policies for the people's judgement.

Dalfiatach

Back when I was an impressionable student I was in Ogra FF for a while. And at an Ogra conference in the early 90s, attended by the then Taoiseach (Albert) and quite a few Ministers (including a much younger Brian Cowen) we were treated to lots of talk and promises that plans were already well advanced to...

...organise in the North.

It's all nonsense. FF do this every 15 years or so, since the 1940s. They do it in order to con the next generation of voters into believing that FF really are a "republican" party who are serious about unification. This they do for two reasons: one, they entrench their lock on the bar-stool patriot vote; and two by wrapping the green flag round them and loudly proclaiming their virtue they imply that the other parties (and in particular FG) are "unsound". This niggling doubt remains in the minds of huge chunks of the electorate, and come election time lots and lots of people who despise the government still go out and vote FF because "They might be crap but at least they're good Irishmen, sure wouldn't it be worse if a bunch of treacherous WestBrits were in power".

That FF have got away with this simple con for nearly 70 years never ceases to astound me.

We were due another bout of this rubbish anyway. Ahern only announced it this week to try and distract some people from his ridiculous blether at the Tribunal.

Senator

Isn't there already a FF cumann in Derry and aren't some Queen's University students organising one there too ?

Jackie laughlin

Zambia,
Yes, the term SF/IRA does annoy those trying to wriggle out of responsibility for their crimes. The fact that people vote for a criminal doesn't exonerate that person.

Your definition of ghetto is fine now. My point was that SF/IRA have contributed greatly to worsening division in NI and have now recognised partition. Now, that has to rate as failure on a grand scale.

Your apology is accepted.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Zambia,
Yes, the term SF/IRA does annoy those trying to wriggle out of responsibility for their crimes. The fact that people vote for a criminal doesn't exonerate that person.

If I joined the SF party this morning i do not deserve to be labeled as a member of the IRA. Every time i hear that reference its by some eejit DUP hardliner who just cant move forward. Its a refernce that should be left in the past. Its as if these eejits want to eradicate every old nationalist and replace them with new ones who never ever lifted a finger. However this is miles of thread

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Your definition of ghetto is fine now.

What does this mean , yes you mis-used it or in the last 24 hours the meaning of the word changed ?

Jackie laughlin wrote:

My point was that SF/IRA have contributed greatly to worsening division in NI and have now recognised partition. Now, that has to rate as failure on a grand scale.

Granted but division has always been present, at least its a tad more even now.

Nobody's hands in this mess are much cleaner than anyone elses.

Not everyone sees recognised partition as a failure.

But like I said we have strayed OT , FF are welcome to enter Northern politics but i fear Dalfiatach is correct on their motives after some thought.

Voipjunkie

Zambia232 wrote:

But like I said we have strayed OT , FF are welcome to enter Northern politics but i fear Dalfiatach is correct on their motives after some thought.

Yeah this chestnut appears every now and again

Although it is possible that now that the conflict has subsided that FF might feel safer entering the North now than they did before.

On the SF issue it will not make much difference to them it will be a takeover of the SDLP it might cost them some votes in the middle class but over all I reckon they would welcome it as a start to the realignment of politics on the island as a whole.

Off Topic Any chance in the interests of the keeping threads on topic that terms like SF/IRA could be banned it drags discussions on the north continually back to who did what and when that have been argued over and over already. The only purpose it seems to serve is to get peoples backs up

lostexpectation

Zambia232 wrote:

If I joined the SF party this morning i do not deserve to be labeled as a member of the IRA. Every time i hear that reference its by some eejit DUP hardliner who just cant move forward. Its a refernce that should be left in the past. Its as if these eejits want to eradicate every old nationalist and replace them with new ones who never ever lifted a finger. However this is miles of thread

dont you mean DUP/UDA

Mr.Micro

Are FF intent of upsetting SF by moving onto their turf .Is the 26 counties not big enough for FF to make a mess with Health ,transport , education and now are sickly economy. Sort out the 26 before moving north to stir trouble in my opinion.

Our man in Havana

Another abstentionist party. All that NI needs.

Zambia

lostexpectation wrote:

dont you mean DUP/UDA

dont know who would be more offended at being linked to the other :rolleyes:

lostexpectation

Zambia232 wrote:

dont know who would be more offended at being linked to the other :rolleyes:

well who is political wing of the UDA

Gobán Saor

lostexpectation wrote:

dont you mean DUP/UDA

LOL:D

UDA wouldn't be, um, god-fearing enough for DUP types. All those tattoos and drugs, don't you know. DUP/Ulster Resistance would be accurate though. Paisley, Robinson and Sammy Wilson were prominent in setting up UR.

Proceeds of a Northern Bank robbery (honestly, you couldn't make this stuff up!) were then used to acquire AK47's, Browning 9mm pistols and RPG7 rocket launchers, grenades and ammunition for UR/UDA/UVF. The gear was ex-PLO stuff, captured by the Christian militia in Lebanon. Sadly for our heroes, the "security forces" intercepted the vast bulk of the stuff. (UR membership also overlapped with UDR membership - pay attention now.) One of those convicted of possession was a DUP member (but not a UDR member.)

UR then used contacts in Shorts Brothers to try to sell missile technology to the South Africans in return for further arms but this dastardly plot was also foiled. Surprisingly (or not) those convicted for this received suspended sentences and a fine.

UR resurfaced in June 2007 when the Sunday Life published a picture of two armed and masked men in combat uniform with a banner which read "Ulster Resistance C Division" (There's no information on the whereabouts of A Division or B Division.) http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/article2640640.ece#
A spokesman said that "Paisley had let a lot of people down" but UR was recognised by the security forces as "probably the best armed organisation in the Protestant community" and had the "the capability and resources to strike with deadly force."

Zambia

lostexpectation wrote:

well who is political wing of the UDA

UPRG

Zambia

Personnally I would take every thing the Sunday life says with a heart attack inducing pince of salt, once we let the like of the UDA etc die out they really wont have a paper...thats all they write about.

But I have no counter evidence to say if its true or not.

Jackie laughlin

Zambia,
If you were to join SF tomorrow, you would indeed be joining SF/IRA; both exist and are inextricably linked. Moreover, no organisation is born anew every time a person joins. They all have history and your decision to join would in part be conditioned by that history.

You are being far too pedantic over "ghetto". The word is commonly used to describe the separation of people and in modern use it often means a cultural or psychological separation as in "ghetto mentality". My point is that SF/IRA have contributed greatly to driving two sets of Irish people further apart.

Come on, an organisation sets out to "unify" Ireland, kills and maims people along the way and after decades of this finds the country more divided than when it started. By any standard that is spectacular failure.

There are people who have been active in politics in Northern Ireland whose hands are not at all bloody and they have been betrayed by the Irish and British governments.

Voip,
I disagree with you about clearing this and similar topics of reference to what happened in the past. To do so would be to make a very firm political statement of support for the position of SF/IRA. That this argument surfaces everytime N.I. is raised IS the point. FF is not foolishly going to organise in N.I. pretending that it's like starting a cumann in in a new housing estate. They realise fully that this move, if it happens, will be a step into a political morass. True, it might well be a helpful move. But let's not all fall into the SF/IRA/Basil Fawlty trap of "don't mention the war!"

Zambia

At some piont Jackie your going to have to live in this century. We could all go around calling the PSNI The PSNI/RUC because they are comprised of the same body of people. Some do to be honest but others take it for what it is a geniune attempt at a change of attitude.

I can understand the actions of the IRA have caused hardship in the past but for years part of the problems in the north are caused by people instilling a hatred for others in future generations. History at some piont has to become history.

This reference is exactly that type of behaviour, for pitys sake just let it go.

Or else explain to me what you see as the objective of constantly remembering the war as you put it? Would you like it to flare up again?

Jackie laughlin

Zambia,
Real people don't live in the moment. They live in their time which is determined by history. I'm not quoting accurately as it's from memory but Marx put it nicely, "Men make history but not in conditions of their own choosing".

When you use the word "hardship" you make a whole political argument. I would make a different one by saying "needless death and destruction".

I won't make comparisons between the killings and injuries caused by the RUC and those caused by SF/IRA. That would be risible. However, the crimes of the former are much more serious and their perpetrators should be treated much more harshly as they were expected to behave as a police force.

The "let's forget or it might start again" routine is not an argument; it is either a fear or a threat.

Killers are hunted down and imprisoned so that people can "move on". I hate that pshychobabble-like term but normal people have a sense of rightous indignation and expect society to be run on principles of justice and decency.

McArmalite

Dalfiatach wrote:

Back when I was an impressionable student I was in Ogra FF for a while. And at an Ogra conference in the early 90s, attended by the then Taoiseach (Albert) and quite a few Ministers (including a much younger Brian Cowen) we were treated to lots of talk and promises that plans were already well advanced to...

...organise in the North.

It's all nonsense. FF do this every 15 years or so, since the 1940s. They do it in order to con the next generation of voters into believing that FF really are a "republican" party who are serious about unification. This they do for two reasons: one, they entrench their lock on the bar-stool patriot vote; and two by wrapping the green flag round them and loudly proclaiming their virtue they imply that the other parties (and in particular FG) are "unsound". This niggling doubt remains in the minds of huge chunks of the electorate, and come election time lots and lots of people who despise the government still go out and vote FF because "They might be crap but at least they're good Irishmen, sure wouldn't it be worse if a bunch of treacherous WestBrits were in power".

That FF have got away with this simple con for nearly 70 years never ceases to astound me.

We were due another bout of this rubbish anyway. Ahern only announced it this week to try and distract some people from his ridiculous blether at the Tribunal.

Yer on the ball there Dalfiatach, especially " They do it in order to con the next generation of voters into believing that FF really are a "republican" party who are serious about unification. This they do for two reasons: one, they entrench their lock on the bar-stool patriot vote; and two by wrapping the green flag round them and loudly proclaiming their virtue they imply that the other parties ". That's how the country is run I'm afraid.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Killers are hunted down and imprisoned so that people can "move on". I hate that pshychobabble-like term but normal people have a sense of rightous indignation and expect society to be run on principles of justice and decency.

So you agree at some piont we have to start moving on. Do you see that piont as the piont where every criminal murder commited during the troubles has been solved?

Jackie laughlin

Zambia,
No one would be daft enough to answer such a transparently devious question in the way you hope.

I said quite a bit which you ignored and I said that "moving on" was conditional on meting out justice.

There is neither merit nor need to let murderers go free. The constitutional position of N.I. is now copperfastened. The civil powers are now in firm control. Let's look to justice.

By the way, I read recently somewhere that there was controversy over memorials. The Omagh memorial has been designed but words will be disputed. History - especially recent history - is a living force in a society. I'm told that there will be trouble too over a memorial for Enniskillen. What should be engraved? Did the people there "die tragically during the troubles" or were they "murdered by psychopaths who couldn't tolerate Remembrance Day"? This is a real dispute involving people living in the first decade of the 21st century.

There's no easy way out. Forgetting is not an option. Saying that we should not talk about the recent past is a self-serving political argument put forward by those guilty of terrible crimes, their associates and their supporters.

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Come on, an organisation sets out to "unify" Ireland, kills and maims people along the way and after decades of this finds the country more divided than when it started. By any standard that is spectacular failure.

This country is more divided than 1968 by what measure do you come to that conclusion.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There are people who have been active in politics in Northern Ireland whose hands are not at all bloody and they have been betrayed by the Irish and British governments.

The British Government have blood on their hands as well so if we are to exclude those with blood on their hands it would leave John Hume and Bertie talking to each other. Yeah that would be a great success.
You do not make peace with your allies obviously you would prefer the predictability of the conflict as all you appear to want to do is drag any discussion back to 30 years ago.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Voip,
I disagree with you about clearing this and similar topics of reference to what happened in the past. To do so would be to make a very firm political statement of support for the position of SF/IRA. That this argument surfaces everytime N.I. is raised IS the point. FF is not foolishly going to organise in N.I. pretending that it's like starting a cumann in in a new housing estate. They realise fully that this move, if it happens, will be a step into a political morass. True, it might well be a helpful move. But let's not all fall into the SF/IRA/Basil Fawlty trap of "don't mention the war!"

No all that happens is that we go around in circles so a discussion on whether FF should organise in the 32 counties turns in to the usual debacle of SF/IRA well you started it no you did.
By all means mention the war but just not on every thread that mentions the North it serves no purpose and just makes this place look like groundhog day

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Zambia,




I won't make comparisons between the killings and injuries caused by the RUC and those caused by SF/IRA. That would be risible. However, the crimes of the former are much more serious and their perpetrators should be treated much more harshly as they were expected to behave as a police force.

The "let's forget or it might start again" routine is not an argument; it is either a fear or a threat.

Killers are hunted down and imprisoned so that people can "move on". I hate that pshychobabble-like term but normal people have a sense of rightous indignation and expect society to be run on principles of justice and decency.

Except that continually chasing the past will not improve the present or the future by all means people have a right to know what was done and why it was done and by whom it was done but the terms of the GFA already mean that anyone caught for offenses committed during the conflict will serve little if anytime in prison.

People tend to only have righteous indignation on their own side particularly groups like FAIT etc we should not allow groups like that to drag us backwards perhaps it is time for some kind of truth and reconciliation commission so that people can come forward and admit what they did why they did it and on who they were acting on behalf off and at least we would know that much I don't see any advantage in having hundreds of people Republicans, Loyalists , RUC and British Army in prison now.

luckylucky

I'm always gobsmacked when I see Irish people from a 'nationalistic' persuasion buying into what the British influenced papers and media spout out in the Republic. Sorry to say this but man I think we're such a dumb race sometimes that we deserved what we got. SF/IRA - Yes the two are linked, they are not the same but they are linked, it's an obvious deduction and one the unionists have exploited. Still it doesn't mean you had to buy into it. I don't agree with what the IRA did but ffs have you ever even been to the North, maybe it becomes more understandable if you have. And really you shouldn't buy-in into Unioinist/British terminology when they are responsible for millions of deaths in our past over the last few hundred years.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Zambia,
No one would be daft enough to answer such a transparently devious question in the way you hope.

I hoped you would make your position clear on when we as an Island move on past the troubles. I have no loss close to me as a result of the troubles , so its an easier step for me than most to move on.

A clear Marker was all I was looking for. No deviousness intended.

luckylucky

Zambia, I gather your a nationalist. In your location you have Belfast, N.Ireland which puzzles me. I thought it was only Belfast posters from the unionist tradition here that had their signature as N.Ireland to emphassise the Northern factor. It's not as if we think your from Belfast, Tennessee is it

I know I'm being a bit cheeky, soz but just genuinely curious.

Mr.Nice Guy

People need to look at the timing of this. What do I mean? Allow me to elaborate...

IT'S A SMOKESCREEN

Bertie under the cosh, hospitals closing down. This is a sad attempt to warm the hearts of the grassroots and to try and attract young people to the party.

Zambia

yes I wouldnt want to be confused with Belfast in Natal, South Africa its a kip

Zambia

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

People need to look at the timing of this. What do I mean? Allow me to elaborate...

IT'S A SMOKESCREEN

Bertie under the cosh, hospitals closing down. This is a sad attempt to warm the hearts of the grassroots and to try and attract young people to the party.

well it caused Something the FF party was recruiting in the University of Ulster yesterday, people joined.

McArmalite

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Zambia,
Yes, the term SF/IRA does annoy those trying to wriggle out of responsibility for their crimes. The fact that people vote for a criminal doesn't exonerate that person.

Does that include those who voted for Offical Sinn Fein or their political covernames, Workers Party, Democratic Left/ Offical IRA also ? ( For those of you who may be too young to know what Offical Sinn Fein/Offical IRA was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offical_Sinn_Fein , they were nicknamed 'the Stickies', Offical SF became SF the Workers Party, then the Workers Party then Democratic Left. Eoghan Harass [Harris] was a leading member of it - need I say anymore. )

And how come your reluctant to label say, Ulster Unionists/Orange Order ? or RUC/UDA or British Intelligence/ UVF ?

As you describe yourself as a 'Marxist' you seem to have quite a similiar viewpoint as their policies on the 6 occupied counties, but I'm not suggesting for a second your a Stickie Jackie . Instead of being labeled a 'Stickie' - would the term Marxist/Unionist be more in line with your views

Zambia

McArmalite wrote:

need I say anymore.

I really wish you wouldnt ....as once again a piontless diatribe.

Jackie laughlin

Voip and Zambia,
It's just not possible to discuss N.I. politics without reference to atrocities committed in the recent past. You can call that going round in circles, if you like but that won't change anything. Banning terminology or certain views here would be a political act.

Who did what to whom is an issue. All parties are not equally guilty. Some were worse than others. Some were innocent.

As I said above, a monument will cause a controversy. The guilty will try to have a lie engraved.

McArm,
I can try to clarify my position for you again but you'll soon be back with more abuse.
For the record: I am a socialist, I am heavily influenced by Marx and find his work remains relevant - though it must be re-interpreted for this century and cannot be reduced to the status of a sacred document - I am not a Unionist, political violence has brought nothing but misery to our people, I take great pleasure in being Irish, I love the culture - Gaelic, Anglo-Irish, Hiberno-English and all combinations - I love the Irish language. I like red wine, I had toast for breakfast, The Undertones "Teenage Kicks" is the finest recording ever by an Irish act, The Wolfe Tones are ****e and so are the Irish Tenors.

Jackie laughlin

Those asterisks above are not my handiwork and represent a puny assault on free speech.

Fratton Fred

I remember listening to a Mo Mowlem interview once and she was being asked about the peace process and how complicated it is.

She said that her and (I think) General De Chastelaine were attending a community meeting trying to promote the peace talks and the GFA. They were talking about reconciliation, forgiveness etc and a lady stood up and said she supported the peace movement, but that man (Pointing to someone three rows in front of her) killed my son, has been released and is living in her street.

That kind of make you appreciate how long this process could take. A lot of people in NI are living with daily reminders of the violence.

I know it is off topic, but that interview with Mo Mowlem was a real eye opener for me. Hopefully she will get the recognition she deserves in all this as well.

McArmalite

Jackie laughlin wrote:

McArm,
I can try to clarify my position for you again but you'll soon be back with more abuse.
For the record: I am a socialist, I am heavily influenced by Marx and find his work remains relevant - though it must be re-interpreted for this century and cannot be reduced to the status of a sacred document - I am not a Unionist, political violence has brought nothing but misery to our people,

Here we go again, a, I look like a duck, quack like a duck, waddle like a duck etc but I'm not a duck, type answer. As I have said about your postings before, you use the strongest possible language in describing actions of the 'baddie' IRA ( 1969 - onwards) but the mildest, token criticism for british violence and british inspired violence of the unionists/loyalists. You'd almost think the Provos were the ones who actually created partition back in 1922.

" political violence has brought nothing but misery to our people " Anyone coming out with cliches about the misery all communities have sufffered etc, etc is nothing but hypocrisy and bare faced lies. The people who suffered the worst misery resulting from political violence were the nationalists entrapped behind the secterian wall of partition. Their misery did not start with the formation of the Provos in 1969, but back in 1922 and indeed beyond, though if you were to listen to some you'd think it was the Provos and not the brits/unionists/loyalists etc who respondcible for the conditions that created the troubles. I am not going to say the Provos were by any means a squeaky clean bunch of freedom fighters, but neither were the 'goodie' IRA of 1916 - 1921 either, or any other clandestine armed group.
James Connolly actually predicted that as bad as their position was in an all Ireland dominated by britain, that their position would vastly worse if the country was partitioned. Unfortunately he was right.

But still as Voipjunkie writes regarding FF in the occupied counties I also would have thought that a nationalist or even a Marxist anyone " would welcome it as a start to the realignment of politics on the island as a whole. "

I'm as guilty as anyone around here but as Voipjunkie also states " terms like SF/IRA could be banned it drags discussions on the north continually back to who did what and when that have been argued over and over already. The only purpose it seems to serve is to get peoples backs up. " But if you are going to use the term SF/IRA, don't be a hypocrite and ignore Ulster Unionists/Orange Order, DUP/Ulster Restance, RUC/UDA, brit intellingce/UVF etc.

Ofcourse no one would still think that much of your political thoughts are very similiar to Offical SF/ Offical IRA Jackie